Ryanair NO 1 for Customer Service !

[Capt Mick]

IT’S OFFICIAL - RYANAIR IS NO. 1 FOR CUSTOMER SERVICE


Ryanair, Europe’s No. 1 low fares airline today (Wednesday, 22nd February 2006) welcomed the just released AEA and Ryanair figures for customer service in 2005.
Speaking today, Peter Sherrard, Ryanair’s Head of Communications said:
“The comparison between AEA, Ryanair and Easyjet customer service statistics clearly shows that for the third year in a row Ryanair is the most punctual major airline in Europe with the most on time flights, the fewest cancellations and least lost bags.
“The report confirms:
Flights: During 2005, nearly 3 in 10 passengers who chose British Airways were delayed compared to just 1 out of 10 with Ryanair.

Mislaid bags: During 2005, 35 passengers in every 2,000 flying with British Airways had their bag mislaid compared to just 1 in every 2,000 with Ryanair.

Cancellations: During 2005, 12 in every 800 British Airways flights were cancelled, compared to less than 5 in every 800 with Ryanair.
“The report also confirms what millions of European consumers already know; if you want the lowest fares, the best customer service and best on-times, fly Ryanair”.
Did you ever hear such rubbish in your life ? Ryanair wouldnt know the meaning of good customer service if it hit them between their two front eyes!! The way customers are treated is unbelievable ! Ryanair are the worst for customer service

[BigGrecian]

Just because they are on time and loose the least baggage doesn't mean they have the best customer service - although let's be honest BA call centres are pretty much on the same level.

[Final 3 Greens]

I'm sure its true, just as no Saudi woman has ever crashed a car :}

[TightSlot]

Mislaid bags: During 2005, 35 passengers in every 2,000 flying with British Airways had their bag mislaid compared to just 1 in every 2,000 with Ryanair.

For clarity, wouldn't a better statistic be to compare loss rates per number of bags checked, rather than per passenger: I'm sure that FR would still win, given the policy of checking point to point bags only, but the stats might be more relevant?

[lexxity]

Tightslot I was going to say that! You just can't compare the two, although the lay pax won't think about that.:ugh:

[bmibaby.com]

It constantly amazes me that people on the internet & in the press find a need to criticise Ryanair, as well as other low-cost airlines. Whilst the level of customer service may not be the same level of their legacy competitors, and indeed the standards of service may be little more than a National Express with wings, the airline has opened up Europe for many, making flying extremely inexpensive.

Not that this is meant as a rant or a Ryanair publicity opportunity, but I stand by the LCC airlines who say you get what you pay for.

[redfield]

BmiBaby: Spot on. People will always fly with loco airlines like Ryanair or Easyjet if prices are kept low, unfortunately the majority of them don't seem to understand that they will only get what they pay for. What do they expect for £4.99 plus tax? A three course meal and a five star hotel when it all goes pear-shaped? If you pay £500 for a hotel room you can expect to be waited on hand and foot, have your socks ironed and get your feet massaged in the spa, on the other hand if you pay £5 for a room you'll get bog all and there'll probably be sick all over the chair oops freudian slip....topical though! Have Ryanair's passenger figures dropped since the Channel 4 program? I doubt that the number of complaining pasengers has dropped either, so back to Bmi's point: why criticise the locos? They offer what people want, even if they do complain about it! :ugh:

[Final 3 Greens]

unfortunately the majority of them don't seem to understand that they will only get what they pay for.

But what if they pay 150-200 pounds?

And many do. What do they deserve and in one short sentence the whole loco lack of service argument evaporates.

[slim_slag]

Perhaps if we define 'Customer Service' as providing what the customer actually paid for then Ryanair's PR will make more sense. If you consider punctuality, cancellation rate, cost of travel to be important then I think they can claim to provide the best 'customer service'. It's when you try to get hold of their 'customer grievance' department they appear to slip. But are the others any better? We have had reason to contact three airline 'customer grievance' departments in the past three months. Only one has totally satisfied us, and within 24 hours, and that was Ryanair. Two 'full fare' carriers failed completely.

[redfield]

Final 3: Personally I wouldn't pay £200 to fly with a low cost airline as it defeats the object. If someone ants to get from A to B and a high price loco ticket is the only way, fair enough I suppose, but if you're willing to pay that much you might as well fly with a full fare airline, get a meal thrown in and the option of hotac if you're delayed.

[bmibaby.com]

The passengers who pay upwards of £150 per sector are often those who are booking to fly within two weeks of travelling, when the legacy airlines will be charging often two or three times the amount. What people fail to understand, is that the low-cost airlines have made flying affordable for everyone, whether that means booking in advance for a holiday and being able to pay £0.99 plus-tax, or for business travellers who can expand their businesses by making more business trips because the walk-up fare is under £300 return, that's why these airlines have changed the face of the airline industry.

Are their business plans robust? Yes! Does this mean that working conditions for employees may be harsher? Yes! Does it mean that you aren't going to get lots of freebies when things go wrong? Yes! But has it meant that flying is more affordable, and that the airline underpromises but overdelivers by generally getting passengers ontime & with their bags ... yes again! :)

[lplsprog]

F3G

Most SLF paying £100+ have usually booked last minute and will pay that sort of money just to get to their destination, what I object to in loco customer service is the high cost of transferring or changing your flight when it is just a matter of a few pushes on a competer keyboard.

[slim_slag]

Full fare airlines will charge you an arm and a two legs for a fully changeable ticket, or just an arm to change a cheap ticket. If they let you that is.

One of the more interesting snippets to come out from the recent Ryanair/Channel 4 correspondance was that 25% of the seats on Ryanair are given away (taxes/third party charges/CC fees/etc extra of course). That's a remarkable figure. So if you pay £150 you should be kicking yourself, but nobody forced you to accept their offer. You freely entered into that agreement yourself, and you still get a walk up ticket for less than you would pay in the days when the tickets were priced by government/airlines in collusion.

What %age of full fare airline seats are given away? You cannot even get a frequent flier award on BA for nothing, they hit you with fuel surcharge. I bet the capacity limits on BA frequent flier awards are far far far less than 25%. (and in any case you paid for those miles so the frequent flier seat isn't even free)

[WHBM]

The passengers who pay upwards of £150 per sector are often those who are booking to fly within two weeks of travelling
I am one of these, paid indeed £150 on FR one-way Bristol to Dublin, 30-minute sector, bought on the spot at the airport. Even got one of the clanky old 737-200s for my trouble as well (probably the last JT8D-engined flight I will ever make, they were indeed good friends to me over many years).
Yes, and when I pay this money and then get told you get what you pay for on Ryanair, I am disappointed.
Ryanair do many city pairs, or maybe I should say cornfield pairs, where there is no competition so it is misleading to write that passengers may have had a choice of carrier.
What do they expect for £4.99 plus tax? A three course meal and a five star hotel when it all goes pear-shaped? If you pay £500 for a hotel room you can expect to be waited on hand and foot, have your socks ironed and get your feet massaged in the spaUnfortunately this analogy does not apply to aviation, where you have people who paid £4.99 and people who paid £500 seated next to each other receiving identical service.

[howflytrg]

mmmmm time for a quick choice, last minute flight from LGW-DUB, FR or BA? let me see..............doesn't even take a second to dismiss the idea of FR. But then each to their own. If you like being treated like a sheep and being released from the airfield into a farm field in the middle of nowhere, great! But if you prefer to be able to interact with other forms of life apart from animals or airport security staff, i'll go BA. :ok:

[bmibaby.com]

Whilst Ryanair may fly from "cornfield citypairs" these are alternatives to routes flown from the main city airports, where indeed you will often have a choice of the legacy airlines. What Ryanair have done, is open up these small airports not only as an alternative to the busy hub airports, but also in supporting the smaller regions around these new airports, or in some cases airfields, that they serve.

Ryanair's fares for last-minute pax are going to be cheaper than those for a legacy airline, even if you're required to purchase drinks or receive slightly inferior legroom. Legacy carriers have only dropped prices within low-cost-airline levels as a kneejerk reaction to these airlines, without FR & EZY, we'd still be paying silly-money to fly.

Whilst you may object lplsprog to having to pay for changing your flight, this happens at legacy airlines as well if you're on the restricted cheaper tickets which are sold to compete with the LCCs, fully flexible tickets cost an absolute fortune even for relative short flights. Therefore, even if you have to change details for your flight on a LCC, you'll probably still stay better off.

What low-cost airlines have done, is do exactly what they say on the tin. They aim to fly you to your destination on-time & with your bags safely. You may not get all the frills & support you might get from other airlines, but even if you don't get the £0.99 seats, you'll still probably have saved money over flying with a legacy carrier. I cannot believe, that airlines which have opened up flying for Europeans should constantly be moaned at because they won't provide a free cup of tea, or they make you pay to change your ticket. Zoom back 15 years when the only way to get a cheap flight was to deal with complex ticket restrictions on the flag carriers, or fly on a once-weekly charter flight, and still the deals weren't as good as now. What more do you people want ... :*

[EI-CFC]

mmmmm time for a quick choice, last minute flight from LGW-DUB, FR or BA? let me see..............doesn't even take a second to dismiss the idea of FR. But then each to their own. If you like being treated like a sheep and being released from the airfield into a farm field in the middle of nowhere, great! But if you prefer to be able to interact with other forms of life apart from animals or airport security staff, i'll go BA.

Well on a journey as short as LGW - DUB, I'm not sure that the difference is really as issue, especially considering the differential in price. And neither airport is next to a "farm field in the middle of nowhere".

[Final 3 Greens]

I am just pricing a trip to Copenhagen in the middle of next month and the options so far (in Y) are:

SAS - GBP 108

British Airways - 109

easyJet - GBP 127

Ryanair - GBP 130 (to MMX/Malmo)

I hope that this data will put into perspective that the loco airlines tend only to be competitive with the majors well in advance.

Now, as it happens, it suits me to fly from STN on this occasion and I'll probably choose easy, but if you factor travel from central London, the Stansted express is several times more expensive than the tube to Heathrow. So for many travellers, they could pay 30% more to travel low cost and we aren't talking about turning up on the day - this is 3 weeks in advance.

So BMIBaby, the data simply does not support your argument. Flying is a zero sum game, as WHBM says and someone always pays more so that someone can pay less.

In the major carriers, the F, J & W pax (& full fare Y) cross subsidise the low cost Y seats (and receive better service levels, except full fare Y), but what do you get back if you pay top end with a loco?

Short answer - nothing.

So, in order to convince me that loco carriers are truly loco, I would like to see them price the cabin at a simple pricepoint (like Laker used to do with Skytrain) and then we will see what that price is.

[slim_slag]

I am just pricing a trip to Copenhagen in the middle of next month and the options so far (in Y) are:

...
...
...

I hope that this data will put into perspective that the loco airlines tend only to be competitive with the majors well in advance.

OK, so I looked at all the fights on BA and FR 'in the middle of next month' (Mar 10-20) to the destinations you included in your survey.

Excluding taxes etc the most expensive one way flight was actually on BA who want approx £158 CPH-LON on 10th March. Most expensive one way flight on FR is £99.99 on 19th Mar, STN-MMX.

Cheapest you can do it on BA is approx £75 round trip available on 10 out of the 11 days in the sample. Cheapest on FR is 2p round trip. A 1p fare is available outbound on 6 days, a 1p fare inbound on 4 days. FR will charge you less than £1 outbound on 8 days, less than £1 inbound on 5 days, and less than £20 inbound on every day. So it's cheaper to fly on FR coming back on every day in the 'middle of next month' (remember to add all the extras to my figures for both carriers, though I have included the BA fuel surcharge in their figures as I consider that part of the BA ticket price).

If you insist on flying out on 12th March, and back on 19th march you will indeed approx pay FR £200, BA £75. So by selecting on one day 'in the middle of next month' you can indeed prove that FR is more expensive than BA :) I thought you were a statistics wizard?

[EI-CFC]

So BMIBaby, the data simply does not support your argument.

One flight does not representative data make...

[Final 3 Greens]

Hi Slim

As I'm travelling on business, to fulfill an engagement, then I have no flexibility - I have to go on the 12th and come back on the 17th and the data given was driven by those dates, no point looking at any others.

If shopping around, then one can always find bargains, but I still make the point that locos are not necessarily lower cost than the majors and thus the argument that "what do you expect for a few quid" is disingenuous and false.

I also note your comment about 1 p fares, however, the cost to the consumer would not be 1p, would it?

[slim_slag]

Ah, must have misunderstood you when you said "I hope that this data will put into perspective that the loco airlines tend only to be competitive with the majors well in advance".

Anyway, just for grins, I looked at all the possible permutations of flying on BA and FR in the middle of next month (your original sample) to your destination from London. It's a slow day here :)

Using all combinations of flying our/flying back on all dates between 10th and 20th March, and using the cheapest fare on each day, round trip, web site numbers just obtained......

(It's not normal distribution)

highest Fare: BA £187. FR £120
Lowest Fare: BA £75. FR 2p
Average Fare: BA=£76. FR=£24.
Median Fare: BA=£75, FR= 80p
Mode Fare: BA=£75, FR=2p

BA includes fuel surcharge, and approximate. It's in excel now, so I can update as we get closer, should be interesting.

[Final 3 Greens]

BA prices include taxes and other charges.

What are the fully inclusive FR prices?

PS - I'm cheesed off with BA at the moment.

[slim_slag]

None of the figures include taxes and fees collected and passed onto other entities, though I have included the BA fuel surcharge as I think that should be part of the ticket price as the airline is using it for it's own operations. If you don't like that, subtract £16 from BA figures, then tell me who gets that money :)

[Final 3 Greens]

Slim

If you got the BA prices from BA.com, they are all inclusive these days.

[Bangkokeasy]

It was a fine piece of PR from FR that initiated this thread. This shows that they are waking up and maturing into the market. It worries me that BA and other competitors, not least to say the travelling public, are drawn into the price argument. Price is obviously the angle that FR use to approach the market and it is their strong point. They have a few other points where they can score, such as losing less baggage (being a point to point operator). However, it amazes me how the mainline carriers fall into the trap of comparing prices, which is a suicide spiral. Even Ryanair realise that they will need to sell on more than price, as witnessed by the piece that started this thread, but why are the mainline operators not rising to the service challenge?

Mainline carriers should be able to score big time on check-in procedures, baggage allowances, airport locations, in flight catering, basic aircraft the passengers have to put up with and skeleton staff.

Instead, they are letting standards slip further, skimping on inflight food, allowing BAA to treat their valuable passengers like cattle at airports (particularly LHR) and losing baggage and then failing to correct the situation effectively.

Come on guys, wake up!!

[slim_slag]

Slim
If you got the BA prices from BA.com, they are all inclusive these days.
My prices do not include taxes fees and surcharges, but they do include the BA fuel surcharge.

The BA website gives a price of £55 each way, that's £110 round trip. The BA website says "Taxes, fees, charges and surcharges are included. For the entire journey these are approximately £52.60. "

£110 - £52.60 = £57.40. Add £16 fuel surcharge and it comes to £73.40, which is approx £75, the number I gave.

Good post from bangkokeasy

[scobie]

mmmmm time for a quick choice, last minute flight from LGW-DUB, FR or BA? let me see..............doesn't even take a second to dismiss the idea of FR. But then each to their own. If you like being treated like a sheep and being released from the airfield into a farm field in the middle of nowhere, great! But if you prefer to be able to interact with other forms of life apart from animals or airport security staff, i'll go BA. :ok:
LGW-DUB... Airfield... Farm? Last time I was in Gatwick or Dublin, didn't see much grass... except that which runs parallel to the runways! And DUB aint exactly middle of nowhere... 20 minutes by bus to the city centre!
Not very nice of you to call FR pax 'animals'... perhaps some of these 'animals' fly on your airline... when your airline are the only operator on that route... keeping you in a job are not these 'animals'???
Once again, the FR bashing goes on and on and on and on....

[Globaliser]

Once again, the FR bashing goes on and on and on and on....It doesn't exactly help FR's case if you try to counter the argument by pointing to two airports that are atypical within FR's network. Using cheaper secondary airports, often much further away from the big cities they each help to serve, is a publicly-avowed strategy of FR's.

[Globaliser]

Good post from bangkokeasyI agree. The mainline carriers ought to be selling what they do best, even if they have to add a few quid to their ticket price. Their franchise is not the market that wants to slice every penny off their fare; their market will pay a bit extra if it knows that it is going to get a distinctively better experience than the low-fare carriers provide.

But meanwhile, back to the current market and my own experiences. I have to go to a wedding in Amsterdam in a few weeks' time. The wedding is at 1445, followed by a drinks reception that goes on until about 1730. I can't go to the main evening reception and the trip has to be a day trip because I have house guests arriving at LHR at 2040. I don't necessarily have to be at the airport to meet them (although that would be nice) but I could really do with being back in London during the course of the evening, preferably before they arrive at my house.

EZY is the low-fare carrier on this route. The first issue is the timetable. EZY may operate from three airports, but the times are not well spread:-

0615 from LTN
0630 from LGW
0700 from STN
1100 from LTN
1515 from LTN
1815 from LGW
1915 from STN
1920 from LTN

0850 to LTN
0910 to LGW
0925 to STN
1335 to LTN
1745 to LTN
2055 to LGW
2140 to STN
2150 to LTN

I could take the 1100 from LTN and the 1745 back to LTN for £81.98, which would mean missing the bulk of the reception. Or I could take the 1100 from LTN and the 2055 back to LGW for £96.98, which would mean getting home after the house guests arrive and not being able to meet them at LHR.

Alternatively, I could take BA's 0925 from LGW and 1855 back to LHR for £93.30, and get to meet my house guests at LHR. Or (and this is my currently-favoured option) I could take bmi's 1040 from LHR and 1925 back to LHR for £100.80.

So where is the low-fares' price advantage in the current market? One swallow does not a summer make, but I also see the same thing on the other route that I am interested in on a regular basis, namely LON-BER: For any dates that I've wanted to travel, I've been finding that EZY and RYR prices have been about the same as BA's lowest fares at any particular point in time. And it sounds like I'm not the only one.

PS: I did manage to spot, and remove, EZY's sly attempt to inertia-sell travel insurance. It's automatically added. You have to notice it, and click to remove it - otherwise you could pay for it without meaning to buy it.

[Final 3 Greens]

Globaliser

I just booked easy and noticed the same thing - also, I think its added into the headline price for the flight, since my initial cost was 127 and when I booked it an hour later and stripped out the insurance, it was 118.

A bit sneaky, methinks. Although I can hear the marketing spin "better to make sure our customers are covered."

[Globaliser]

I just booked easy and noticed the same thing - also, I think its added into the headline price for the flight, since my initial cost was 127 and when I booked it an hour later and stripped out the insurance, it was 118.It's certainly included in the total, which is why I describe it as inertia selling rather than anything more dubious. The "price per flight" for the combination including the later flight for me is initially displayed at £50.99 + £35.99, which was properly totalled at £86.98, plus £10 tax and £6.50 insurance = £103.48. Stripping out the insurance gives the total for the flights as £96.98.

[slim_slag]

Well Globaliser, all I can say is you are the full fare airlines dream passenger. For ages the full fare airlines have been trying to persuade us that the only thing that matters when flying is the schedule, but the passengers have been snubbing them in their millions and booking on price. If you have to be in Amsterdam between the hours of 14.45 and 17:30 - no earlier and no later- then you should book on BA and pay the extra for your flexibility.
Of course, for others who have to be in Amsterdam between 11:30 and 14:45 - no earlier and no later - BA might not work, but that doesn't make BA a bad airline.
So where is the low-fares' price advantage in the current market? One swallow does not a summer make, but I also see the same thing on the other route that I am interested in on a regular basis, namely LON-BER: For any dates that I've wanted to travel, I've been finding that EZY and RYR prices have been about the same as BA's lowest fares at any particular point in time. And it sounds like I'm not the only one.

Ah, this is when I step in with my sexy excel spreadsheet :)

I looked at the prices for London-Berlin-London on the BA, Ryanair and Easy website for the first week of March (i.e last minute type fares) and the first week of April. I took the cheapest available flight on each day of the week, and looked at all possibilities of flying back the same week. So it gives a pretty good flavour of the actual fares the airlines are charging.

To keep you happy, I have included all taxes, surcharges and other strange costs BA and FR throw in, but not EZ who only appear charge government taxes as extra (and the insurance is a bit sneaky, but not that bad, and I've taken it out). BA do not have availabity on all dates, so I have been generous to them and put in the lowest fare they quoted in the same week, obviously if you got the last available seat you would pay a lot lot lot more than that.

For first week of March, LON-BER-LON, including all extras

Ryanair BA EZ
Highest £146.98 £668.00 £164.98
Lowest £27.02 £183.00 £69.98
Average £92.16 £281.14 £115.16
Median £91.98 £228.00 £114.98
Mode £91.98 £183.00 £134.98

The average doesn't mean (ha ha) much as it's not normal distribution, I think the mode and median price are a better indication of what it actually happening. You can see BA is twice the price of the others, with FR beating EZ by a reasonable margin.

Going out a bit further, first week of April, including all extras

Ryanair BA Easyjet
Highest £76.98 £162.00 £86.98
Lowest £27.02 £96.00 £36.98
Average £44.42 £114.96 £58.41
Median £40.98 £119.00 £56.98
Mode £27.20 £96.00 £56.98

BA appear to be triple FR, and double Easyjet.

But this isn't fair to the airlines as the figures are being skewed by the government taxes and other fees the passenger pays to gain entry to the airport shopping mall.

So, lets take all the third party charges out to see what the airline is actually taking to transport you. (I'm including BA fuel surcharge as I think that is legitimately part of the cash you pay to the airline for operations, calling that an extra is for me even sneakier than the EZ insurance charge)

For first week of March, LON-BER-LON, how much the airline takes

Ryanair BA Easyjet
Highest £119.98 £634.00 £152.98
Lowest £0.02 £149.00 £57.98
Average £65.16 £247.14 £103.16
Median £64.98 £194.00 £102.98
Mode £64.98 £149.00 £122.98

Pretty much shows BA are raking it in off the customer, their median price in this sample for last minute travel is three times ryanair's. Now you could quite reasonably argue that a median price of £194 is very good value for transport to/from Berlin, and if you are happy paying that then I would not stop you. But, don't claim Ryanair are the same, their median price is £65.

For first week of April, LON-BER-LON, how much the airline takes

Ryanair BA Easyjet
Highest £49.98 £128.00 £74.98
Lowest £0.02 £62.00 £24.98
Average £17.42 £80.96 £46.41
Median £13.98 £85.00 £44.98
Mode £0.20 £62.00 £44.98

Ryanair's highest price is less than BA's cheapest. Look at the mode and median, you really cannot claim that ryanair and ba have similar pricing structures. Looking at this sample BA is clearly charging more on that route, and if they can get it good luck to them.

[Globaliser]

Well Globaliser, all I can say is you are the full fare airlines dream passenger. For ages the full fare airlines have been trying to persuade us that the only thing that matters when flying is the schedule, but the passengers have been snubbing them in their millions and booking on price. If you have to be in Amsterdam between the hours of 14.45 and 17:30 - no earlier and no later- then you should book on BA and pay the extra for your flexibility.

Of course, for others who have to be in Amsterdam between 11:30 and 14:45 - no earlier and no later - BA might not work, but that doesn't make BA a bad airline.Maybe I am their dream, but if so I am not a very profitable one. This experience – when pricing real flights for real trips on real dates, not just investigating theoretical flight combinations – is that I’m not exactly "paying extra" for it. In fact, if I were to choose the BA flights, it would be £5 less to fly BA than to fly EZY – before factoring in transport costs to the airports, and (speaking for myself) the perks that happen to be included for me. And F3G’s experience shows that I’m not alone in this.

As it happens, I think I might pay the extra £7.50 and get another hour in bed.

I don’t think either of us is accusing EZY of being a bad airline, but the point is that for us the promise of low fares doesn’t seem to be matched by the reality. And that the value for money proposition of the majors is - IMHO - distinctly better in this situation.

[slim_slag]

Globaliser,
My figures are not theoretical. They are actual fares taken from the carrier's websites. They are real offers to provide transport at a real price, and if you accept the airline's offer by paying them real money you have entered into a legal contract. Not a theoretical contract, a real one.
namely LON-BER: For any dates that I've wanted to travel, I've been finding that EZY and RYR prices have been about the same as BA's lowest fares at any particular point in time. And it sounds like I'm not the only one.
I selected two weeks, the first week of March and the first week of April. If you take the cheapest flights on any day, every single BA round trip fare is more expensive than the Ryanair fare. It is not actually possible to find a combination fare where Ryanair costs more than BA. The median prices for Ryanair during the first week of April are one fifth that of BA - that's a difference of £70, more than the cost of a packet of crisps :) If you want to pick a week at random I'll run the program again and see what figures come up. (let's hope my program hasn't got any bugs in it or else I will look a bit daft :{ )

[manintheback]

Mainline carriers should be able to score big time on check-in procedures, baggage allowances, airport locations, in flight catering, basic aircraft the passengers have to put up with and skeleton staff.

Instead, they are letting standards slip further, skimping on inflight food, allowing BAA to treat their valuable passengers like cattle at airports (particularly LHR) and losing baggage and then failing to correct the situation effectively.

Come on guys, wake up!!

They should. But they wont. 2.5 hours to queue at T4 Security for a 40 min flight to Paris. Jeez.

[Globaliser]

My figures are not theoretical. They are actual fares taken from the carrier's websites. They are real offers to provide transport at a real price, and if you accept the airline's offer by paying them real money you have entered into a legal contract. Not a theoretical contract, a real one.I have no doubt about your figures. But that is not what I have found on the occasions on which I have been looking to buy tickets to Berlin. My experience on those occasions has been similar to my Amsterdam experience that I've been describing.

If, the next time I'm looking to go to Berlin, the prices for EZY and RYR on the dates and at the times that I need to fly (whether it be for lunch with mates midweek or for a weekend stay) follow the pattern that you've extracted for these few weeks, I may well end up on one of them. But equally I wouldn't be surprised if I happen to find what I've found before.

[PAXboy]

Fascinating thread but I have to sing my old tune that the great unmentioned in comparing flights is distance to airport and the costs involved. In his post of 15:12, Globaliser does mention this.
I am in west Hertfordshire and, for me, a cheap flight from LGW or STN will be offset by the extra petrol and time to get there. Whilst LHR is not cheap for parking it is very close to where I live. LTN is closest and my usual first choice (although they are doing their best to persuade me not to use them by jacking their car parking prices to the max. :* ) So I make the choice in this sequence: Airport / Price / Other. For folks that live, say, near to Bristol - then they are going to have very much less choice and that will be the reality for most of the UK. Those of us that live in the South East and can additionally choose between 2/3/4 departure points are rare.

GlobesI did manage to spot, and remove, EZY's sly attempt to inertia-sell travel insurance. It's automatically added. You have to notice it, and click to remove it - otherwise you could pay for it without meaning to buy it.Yes indeed. I wonder if they picked up this idea from the UK site thetrainline.com that is one of the larger railway booking sites?
SlimFor ages the full fare airlines have been trying to persuade us that the only thing that matters when flying is the schedule, but the passengers have been snubbing them in their millions and booking on price.I can see how the schedules work on this particular LON-AMS trip but they could have just as easily worked in the opposite direction that is just luck of the draw for this trip. Your excellent comparison of fares in the first week of March and April, on the other hand is much more revealing.

[Final 3 Greens]

Globaliser

don’t think either of us is accusing EZY of being a bad airline

Quite. I happen to think easyJet are quite good, with only 2 downsides from a biz travel angle (a) no seat allocation - not what I need at the end of a long hard day and (b) their demonstrated ability to cancel flights in line with their T&Cs (have been stranded twice.) Other than that, they have a prety good product IMHO.

Slim

It's okay to buy on price if your are flexible on schedule, I am not when on business. That's why I ended up paying '(on behalf of my client) 445 for a return flight to Brussels a fortnight ago, cos there were only club seats available.

Also, your comparison concerning flights to Berlin is interesting, but BA fly to Tegel (near to the city centre) and FR/EZ to Schoenefeld, which is certainly not, so like for like it ain't, regardless of what the mode or median may suggest about price.

[slim_slag]

F3G,

Obviously the airlines are going to charge more for people who have little flexibility, that's why they have spent years trying to convince us to purchase primarily based upon schedule. Most people don't have that restriction, and even people travelling on business will arrange meetings to reduce the cost of travel.

I used Berlin as Globaliser said he regularly looked at prices for BA/FR/EZ on that route. I see that in this same thread you said you considered EZ and FR when flying to Copenhagen, and gave prices, so you do the same thing too :)

So how about prices for LGW-DUB-LGW? Exact same route. Sample based upon rules stated above, remember I took the cheapest flights available from both carriers on each day. Fares gathered yesterday.

For first week of March, LGW-DUB-LGW, how much the airline takes

Ryanair BA
Highest £104.98 £229.00
Lowest £6.98 £103.00
Average £53.23 £155.86
Median £47.98 £148.00
Mode £47.98 £113.00


For first week of April, LGW-DUB-LGW, how much the airline takes

Ryanair BA
Highest £47.98 £92.00
Lowest £1.24 £50.00
Average £13.55 £57.71
Median £1.24 £52.00
Mode £1.24 £52.00

Now BA charging a median of £52 in April is very good value for that route, but they still aren't even close to Ryanair. If you think it's worth £50 extra on BA you can give them your cash. If travelling this week, lokoing at the median prices, you will pay them an extra £100. When I can get onto the BA website I'll do the same with the most expensive fares on each day.

[Final 3 Greens]

Slim

You may not be aware that all the airlines I compared fly to CPH (Kastrup), apart from FR, who fly to a different country! (metaphorically London South aka Calais!)

The airlines fly to different airports in Berlin.

Also, what price does FR quote for LHR to DUB? Or LHR to anywhere?

Different drums, different beats, I rest my case.

[Flying_Frisbee]

None of the figures include taxes and fees collected and passed onto other entities

Or excess baggage charges, which Ryanair seem to have cottoned on to as another source of revenue?
Coming back from PIK at Christmas, the 3 of us were 3 kilos over our 45 kilos allowance. We paid the 8 euros per kilo charge. Last weekend coming back from GRO, we were charged for being 2 kg over on our single 17 kg bag. Who gets the extra cash, in spite of our being 28 kg under our limit then?
Yes I know the limit per person is 15 kg, but the steady stream of people going from check in to the Ryanair counter to pay suggests yet another cost to be added to their fares. And this before they start charging per piece regardless of weight.

[slim_slag]

Also, what price does FR quote for LHR to DUB?They don't, they don't fly LHR-DUB. But then neither does BA :ok:

Flying_frisbee. Including rates for excess baggage is way beyond the simple basic cost comparisons I'm trying to show. This will depend on each traveller, and if you look at BA excess baggage rates will depend on the route. If you look at the BA web site they do not give the excess charge per kilo on the LGW-DUB route, you have to find this out when you turn up. At least on FR it is known so you can plan accordingly. It looks like FR are moving to a 20kg hold baggage allowance, £2.50 per bag, with approx £5 per kilo after that. BA have a 23kg hold baggage allowance with an unknown charge after that. The FR cabin allowance appears to be a lot better than BA's. It is really impossible to include these charges in my simple calculations. But you are at liberty to take my basic charges, add whatever costs you feel like, and come back and publish them with justifications.

Anyway, for those who are saying that they have to be at their destination at a certain time and nothing else will do, I've taken the most expensive possible fares for BA and FR on the LGW-DUB route. So, this is the most you can possibly pay either airline if you have to be there at a certain time on a certain day. Both airlines have good service, if anything Ryanair have more flights per day.

So, money the airline takes, most expensive flights each day in a seven day period. March 3rd-March 9th (so last minute type fares).

Ryanair BA
Highest £199.98 £292.70
Lowest £15.98 £227.70
Average £129.41 £278.77
Median £129.98 £292.70
Mode £149.98 £292.70

The highest Ryanair fare is lower than the lowest BA fare. So for last minute travel on this route, you will always get a cheaper deal on Ryanair. The median prices are £130 for FR, £292 for BA. So a big difference, it will take a lot of excess baggage to make it cheaper to fly BA. You could take an excess person and save money using FR.

April 1st to April 7th. Most expensive flights per day.

Ryanair BA
Highest £74.98 £102.70
Lowest £1.24 £73.70
Average £43.36 £86.34
Median £39.98 £92.70
Mode £35.61 £73.70

Ryanairs highest fare compares favourable with BA's lowest. Ryanair's median fare is half that of BA's. However, this is a month out and the vast vast majority of people could be flexible. You could fly on Ryanair for less than £2 return, compare this with BA's £73 return.

Use the data as you see fit.

[Cyrano]

Originally Posted by slim_slag
None of the figures include taxes and fees collected and passed onto other entities
Slim_slag:
Your comparisons are very instructive!

I understand what you're trying to get to with these comparisons - a problem I see, though, is that we don't really have visibility of what's "passed on to other entities". When in a past life I used to negotiate deals with airports on behalf of my airline, I remember being told by an airport, "The published per-passenger landing fee is (e.g.) EUR10.00, so that's what you can show in the 'taxes, fees and charges' box on your website, but in fact we'll give you a discount - we'll only charge you EUR6.00. So you'll get EUR4.00 extra yield and you can keep your headline price down."

Thus I believe it is perhaps naive to assume that if an airline shows a certain sum as being "airport charges" all of those charges are actually being passed on to other entities. I think that this is rather sharp practice (to say the least), but it goes on. And the commercial terms of the airline/airport agreements are closely guarded secrets, whereas the published tariffs are in most cases just that - published - and therefore publicly checkable.

Note that I don't in any way question your conclusion that FR is cheaper than BA on average, just that by excluding all taxes and charges you're in fact underestimating the sum that Ryanair gets to keep.

C.

[slim_slag]

Thanks Cyrano, and what you say is quite right. As you say, we don't know what games the airlines/airports are playing with our money. Probably the only honourable airline within FR/BA/EZ is Easyjet who only add the governement taxes on at the end, and I assume these aren't negotiable. Who is to say that BA isn't getting a refund too? Even so, using the figures, the differences between BA and FR pretty large. Even if FR keeps all the money it claims to pass on, Ryanair should be significantly cheaper than BA for all dates looked at (both last minute and farther out).

[Final 3 Greens]

Slim

Can you explain how the median is 292.50 in a range with a high number of 292.50, a low number of 227.80, a mean of 278.88 and a mode of 292.50?

This has b*gger all to do with the integrity of your base data or whether BA or FR are the best deal, but I'd be interested all the same ;)

[slim_slag]

Slim
Can you explain how the median is 292.50 in a range with a high number of 292.50, a low number of 227.80, a mean of 278.88 and a mode of 292.50?
You mean £292.70? Sure, the median is the "middle" number when all numbers are distributed in order. So, as £292.70 also happens to be the maximum, we can say that over half the possible fares are £292.70, i.e you are paying top whack over half the time.
This has b*gger all to do with the integrity of your base data or whether BA or FR are the best deal, but I'd be interested all the same ;);) I am sure your questioning is entirely honourable :ok: :} :)

[Final 3 Greens]

The median is indeed the middle number or the mean of the two numbers either side of the middle, therefore it can't be the top number :}

Sounds like you mean the mode, whch is the most frequently occuring number in the range.

[slim_slag]

Well, the mode is also £292.70.

Whats the median of the following?

2,4,8,8,8,8,8,8,8

I say 8. Do you say 4?

[Final 3 Greens]

Slim

That range is so negatively skewed that the numbers 2 and 4 are effectively meaningless outliers. In a negatively skewed distribution, the median should be expected to have a higher value than the mean, but not so high as the mode.

Have you calculated the kurtosis of the above?

Probably time to let this go, before we bore others to death, but you can have the last word if you wish.

[TightSlot]

Spreadsheets at dawn!!

Feel free to continue - It is fascinating to observe, even though I have only the faintest idea of what you are both saying. You both clearly speak with some knowledge and authority, or at least give that impression to us dunderheads - It's a little bit like accidentally watching Quantum Physics on an Open University TV show - you sort of know what they're on about from the pictures, but not really!

:E :E :E

[Desert Diner]

In human terms, I'd be the punter that tries to get pay for the 2 but ends up getting it at the 8 price.:{

I wonder what the ticket price distribution is for a "typical" BA flight

[slim_slag]

Morning F3G, as you asked me question I shall answer it and if that's the end sobeit :) I haven't a clue what kurtosis is, and when I looked it up and found http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/0/0/c/00c23f74767048fe42333238780232f0.png I decided to keep it that way !

So here is the data for the most expensive daily prices LGW-DUB-LGW, leaving and coming back this week as gathered a few days ago. You calculate the kurtosis and let us know if it gives more information than the median/mode/average/highest/lowest does on such a simple experiment.

FR=£15.98,£37.98,£37.98,£59.98,£59.98,£59.98,£77.98,£99.98,£ 99.98,£107.98,£127.98,£127.98,£129.98,£129.98,£139.98,£149.9 8,£149.98,£149.98,£149.98,£169.98,£179.98,£179.98,£189.98,£1 89.98,£199.98,£199.98,£199.98,£199.98

BA=£227.70,£227.70,£227.70,£227.70,£227.70,£227.70,£292.70,£ 292.70,£292.70,£292.70,£292.70,£292.70,£292.70,£292.70,£292. 70,£292.70,£292.70,£292.70,£292.70,£292.70,£292.70,£292.70,£ 292.70,£292.70,£292.70,£292.70,£292.70,£292.70

Here are the prices for the least expensive flights LGW-DUB-LGW this week. So you need to take a flight on a specific day, but don't care about the time.

FR=£6.98,£21.48,£21.48,£33.48,£33.48,£33.48,£35.98,£35.98,£3 5.98,£47.98,£47.98,£47.98,£47.98,£47.98,£47.98,£59.98,£59.98 ,£59.98,£59.98,£59.98,£59.98,£64.98,£64.98,£73.48,£87.98,£87 .98,£99.98,£104.98

BA=£101.70,£101.70,£111.70,£111.70,£111.70,£111.70,£111.70,£ 111.70,£121.70,£136.70,£136.70,£136.70,£146.70,£146.70,£154. 70,£154.70,£161.70,£164.70,£164.70,£164.70,£179.70,£202.70,£ 202.70,£212.70,£212.70,£212.70,£212.70,£227.70

For BA, I took the fares quoted on the web site, subtracted all extras, then added fuel surcharge.

Tightslot, thanks, very interesting data indeed. We hear a lot that Ryanair is no cheaper than BA, then we hear Ryanair more expensive if you book last minute, then we hear its the same if you want to be at your destination at a particular time. Then we hear it's only a few quid more to fly BA, but it's worth it.

So what I did attempts to provide some really simple figures for the actual fares. It isn't perfect, some flaws were pointed out, but the algorithms treat both carriers equally, so any flaws will affect them the same.

As the data is skewed an average doesn't work well so medians and modes come in. Maybe kurtosis is a more proper way of doing this, but I like to keep it simple, and anyway I haven't got the first idea of how to calculate kurtosis. So another statement you read on here is that Ryanair may offer 1p fares but there aren't many of them. That appears to be incorrect, there are lots of 1p type fares (over one week out).

For most people purchasing flights on each carrier, you will pay several times more to BA than to FR. Very often BA's lowest available fare on each day is higher than ryanair's highest available fare. This is only on the routes and dates checked.

What I have seen is that Ryanair's really cheap deals, the sub £5 one way types, seem to disappear one week out. Their really cheap deals for weekend away travel disappear quickly, but the remaining fares are still, for most people, better than BA's. Even so, if you can travel early on Friday instead of the flight that leaves after work, you can fly very cheaply on FR compared to BA.

The question in my mind is how can BA get away with charging e.g twice what Ryanair charge. Are there so many people like you find on here, who will pay a 'few more quid' for a packet of crisps, reclinable seat and window blind? Even when that 'few more quid' is £50-£100? Maybe BA fills up it's flights with connecting traffic so there are fewer seats available and the prices are high. Even if that's the case, the bottom line is how much does it cost, and with BA it appears to be several times more most of the time

[Middle Seat]

...and here I read the thread title as "no one for customer service."

Look what text messaging has done to my brain.

[howflytrg]

Never did I feel that this thread could be so entertaining. But how wrong I have been. Perhaps I am wrong about FR and should give them a g..g...g......on second thoughts. Nah.

[Globaliser]

Interesting though I find the statistical analysis of theoretical fares to be, I've just been told by a real person to book us another real trip.

We'd like to go to Edinburgh to have a weekend at the Fringe. We want to fly up sometime during the mid-morning on Sat 19 August - not too early a start, but we don't want to miss too many events on the day. We're going to fly back during the evening of Mon 21 August, thus only taking one day off work - the later we can fly back, of course, the more things we might be able to see. So, with BA, BD and EZY on the route, here's another chance to see whether a "low fare" airline can provide better overall value than a traditional carrier, and to do so well in advance.

Starting with my normally-preferred carrier (BA) I see that I could fly from my local airport (LCY) as well as from LHR or LGW. While the 0910 and 1115 LHR flights don't seem to have anything in the lowest fare classes, I could go from LCY at 0930, or from LGW at 0925 or 1220 at fairly reasonable fares (estimated by Fare Explorer at £47, £44 and £36). Coming back, the last flight to LCY is at 1800 (estimate £47), but if we want to stay later, the last two LHR flights are at 1920 and 2020 (both estimated at £36) and the last LGW flight is at 2055 (also £36).

Getting firm prices (because the actual taxes are over-estimated by FX for LHR and LGW):-
0930 LCY/1800 LCY is £94.
0925 LGW/2055 LGW is £70.10.
0930 LCY/2055 LGW is £83, so there's little point hauling out to LGW much earlier and at extra cost, for about the same arrival time at EDI, to save £13 on the fare.
But if we were prepared to go later on the 1220 LGW, and come back on the 2055 LGW, it would be only £62.10, so there'd be a £21 saving - not enough to be worth waiting until lunchtime before flying.
Or, if we want to get back a little bit earlier, 0930 LCY and either 1920 or 2020 LHR is also £83; 1220 LGW and 1920/2020 LHR is also £62.10.

So what can the others do?

BD has outbound flights in our timeframe at 0840, 1110 and 1250, all at a base fare of £11; and return flights at 1825 and 2045, both at £4.

£11+£4+£46.70 tax = £61.70 for all combinations. So this would be a saving, but we'd miss our BA perks and also the hot breakfast on the LCY-EDI flight.

And EZY?

Well, the first outbound flights after 0805 LTN (too early) is not until 1205 STN, and then the next one is not until 1415 LGW. So there's realistically only one flight north that we would want to use. Fare £36.49, which is not particularly expensive compared to the others that morning:-
07:15 LGW £25.99
07:35 STN £36.49
08:05 LTN £40.99
12:05 STN £36.49
14:15 LGW £30.99

It's better on the return; there are:-
18:05 LTN £20.99
19:20 LTN £20.99
19:40 STN £16.49
21:00 LGW £20.99

On the basis that the STN flight makes sense all round if we have flown out from STN on that 1205 flight, and it's cheaper than the other three flights.

So the total fare would be £36.49+£16.49+£10 tax = £62.98. But, again, food is buy-on-board and no other perks.

So, I ask again, where's the advantage? What am I doing wrong? Am I really being unrealistically inflexible?

Or, perhaps, is it only that I need to travel on a route that RYR does not fly? ;)

[The African Dude]

You're not doing anything wrong. You just did an acid test that showed how low-cost carriers can survive by offering (sometimes only slightly) cheaper seats by booking in advance, and equally expensive fares as legacy airlines by booking late. The defecit to the profits in the first instance is made up by the lack of service and other management running cost corner-cuts. The costs, all considered, are normally pretty even but the lure of the slightly cheaper fare attracts customers. In my experience the LoCo's are only a real blessing if you live near Stansted or Luton (and maybe now Gatwick).
Anyway, what were we talking about?

[slim_slag]

In my experience the LoCo's are only a real blessing if you live near Stansted or Luton (and maybe now Gatwick).Well, that might be your experience, but it's a remarkably London-centric one. There is life outside the M25 :)

Outside "London", Easyjet has good non-stop service to Europe from Bristol, East Midlands, Liverpool, Newcastle and Edinburgh. Glasgow appears to be ramping up.

Outside "London", Ryanair has good non-stop service to Europe from East Midlands, Liverpool, Glasgow.

Outside "London", BA (Connect) has good non-stop service to Europe from Manchester and Birmingham.

Globaliser, you should obviously take BA from London City. A single data point using a chosen inflexible routing doesn't invalidate the argument I presented above. If you read what I said it was that most travellers will save a considerable amount of money by flying a LoCo rather than a legacy carrier, booking either last minute or well ahead of time. Not all travellers, just most. Anyway, the only time I have seen lawyers understand numbers is when they are working out how much you owe them, and even that isn't a hard and fast rule :)

[The African Dude]

Yes Slim - and more often than not, in my experience, despite being flexible enough to fly to other areas of the UK's lower-half, it's been cheapest to fly to these London Apts (although STN is probably closer to Cambridge :ooh:) than the others you list.

When the price is similar or better at the other airports, there are more times to choose from in "London" (why are you using quotation marks?) because LTN and STN are hubs and operate more flights. On that basis, saying that it's (probably) more beneficial to live near the M25 for the purpose of finding cheap airfares makes sense to me.

a real blessing if you live near Stansted or Luton (and maybe now Gatwick). Well, that might be your experience, but it's a remarkably London-centric one. There is life outside the M25
Are the only three airports I mentioned inside the M25? :confused: