Just how important is drinking?

[Captain_Scooby]

Just how important are social skills, in particular drinking, in terms of getting a job? Dont get me wrong - I'm not suggesting that pilots should be subjected to sharing a cockpit with a complete misery guts who hates everyone with a passion. Its more about the time on the ground. To succeed in this industry, do you really need to be someone who spends every nightstop in the hotel bar, knocking back the pints until stupid o'clock?

One of the interviews I've been for, involved going for a meal with the interviewers. They were quite eager to get everyone to drink, and I got the impression it was frowned upon if you didnt.

One pilot I met often boasted about how he was always wasted, could barely stand up, drank an entire bottle of this and that, etc, etc *snore*. He even recounted tales of a time he'd flown back from an airfield with the control column in one hand and a bottle and ciggy in the other, still drunk from the night before.

Now I'm not someone who will spend every night down the pub. I'll certainly go down and spend time with friends and colleagues but if I'm driving, which I often am, its soft drinks.... without question. I simply dont feel the need to get 'wasted' several times a week.

Is the "We are pilots, we must get very drunk until we cannot stand up, because it is the done thing" attitude common in this industry, or have I just been subjected to a very small and non-representative group?

CS

(I've opted for this forum over I,J&S as I'd prefer opinions from those who are a bit further into their training and have had more experience within the industry)

[Ops and Mops]

I suspect that in the current climate where every JOURNO and his dog are sensationalising sotries of drunk pilots/cabin crew, you won't get much of a response.

I suggest that you use your common sense if you not flying and have a look at how the Railways and Transportation Safety Act 2003 affects flight crew. Remember though that no matter how much others laugh, no-one likes to be in the company of a drunken ar$e (least of all work with one.)

If you were not to get a job based on the fact you stuck to the rules and were sensible, maybe it's better you don't work for them.

Always remember, it's YOUR licence at stake, not the company. They won't take the rap if you end up being prosecuted (for anything). In fact you would probably end up getting the sack!

[Superpilot]

I don't know how common it is but one thing I know for sure, it's not limited to pilots. For my last job (IT Outsourcer), during the interview I was asked and told similar things. In fact the second stage interview was in a pub! "We have a laugh from time to time, there's loads of pubs around here and we'd expect you to join in". "Of course" I said. For the year that I was there I think I went to the pub with them on 2 occasions. Partly because I didn't have the time and most probably because I don't drink!

I think it's fair to say that this sort of lifestyle would be expected of you if you worked for a smaller outfit within a very close nit team or environment. The bigger the company the more choice of people to socialise with and the better chance of you finding someone as wise as yourself! :=

[scroggs]

(I've opted for this forum over I,J&S as I'd prefer opinions from those who are a bit further into their training and have had more experience within the industry)

:confused: This forum is essentially for those who have got their licence and are looking for a job. The Prof Pilot Training forum is for those who haven't yet got a licence. How do you reckon there's more experience in there? There's hardly any in either Wannabes forum, by definition!

Anyway, the 'pilot' who told stories of flying with a bottle and a ciggie was either very old, winding you up, or very stupid - or all three. That sort of thing does not happen, and hasn't for many, many years. Even when it did, it was very rare and was limited to a certain kind of larger-than-life character who may very well have been through a war or two in the RAF! The consequences of that kind of behaviour have long been very serious indeed, and not the sort of risk a sensible person would take. The vast majority of pilots are sensible!

It may be that your experience was a bizarre kind of test in which they were looking for those with sufficient strength of character to resist the temptations placed in front of them. If so, it's a strange - though possibly effective - way of assessing your candidates!

Rest assured that you are not expected to be some kind of lush in any airline I know of. Such behaviour would quickly see you back on the dole queue!

Scroggs

[king rooney]

How important is drinking? I think that it is probably not the drinking that is important but the ability to bond with and go out and have a laff with ur mates from work, pilots or otherwise.
Personally I find people who focus on drinking as a thing in itself very sad and boring, and getting ratted is generally a means to make up for their lack of things to talk about/ social inadequecies.
If ur gonna start a new job, pilot or otherwise, then ur gonna have to become friends with ur colleagues whilst sober as well as whilst pissed. If you can only have a laff with people when pissed, what is the point?

[On speed on profile]

Cpt Scooby,

Are you serious mate? Can you not work this one out for yourself? Are you having a giraffe?

The advice wanabees are told all the time. Make sure you come across as the type of person that you can fly 12 hours with and still go down the drink for a bar afterwards. No one wants to work witha stiff! In any industry.

At my last company (medium sized), you didnt fit in if you didnt go down the bar for a drink after flying sometimes. It didnt have to be the bar, just somewhere where people could meet and chat about life outside the company. It usually involved drinking but then most socialising does. No one critised us if we didnt drink alcohol, it was the participation and interest in other people that had the most importance. We were still expected to turn up to work the next day having been well rested and completely sober. We are of course professional pilots and professional pilots take their responsibilities seriously.

In my experience, only children (read: young adults) and adults who act like children have ever given me grief about not drinking! I choose not to socialise with either when they have this view but I still enjoy a beer with colleagues. Ony a stiff doesnt enjoy the company of other people.

Is it just me or do the questions on here just get more and more lame? Maybe we should have a hand holding forum where we can all have nice warm touchy feely sessions for those people who dont understand basic human characteristics or cant apply a bit of sensible logic.

Let me sum it up for you. Pilots are naturally inclined to be sociable. Its that human charcteristic thing in HPL I cant remember (someone please tell me). Social people tend to enjoy the company of other people. Social people usually meet at a neutral, social place. Maybe that place is a bar. Read into this then, Pilots usually like going to the bar to socialise. It is in (most) of our natures.

Do you really need someone to tell you, its not a good idea to turn up to work pissed, for any job, let alone being a pilot where the effective legal limit for alcohol to do the job is zero. The figures only allow for natural alcohol on the breath! Ther are well documented reasons for this and I certainly wont work with a non professional pilot who doesnt follow this rule!

Were you drunk when you wrote this?

[Captain_Scooby]

OSOP, perhaps you're p*ssed now, as you seem to have completely missed the following part of my message

I'll certainly go down and spend time with friends and colleagues

The most recent airline I worked in DID have characters that thought it was a deadly sin not to drink. I'm fairly new to it all, so I think it was a valid question. I have friends that worry about flying BA after seeing a documentary about how some of the pilots spent the entire night in the bar, then went straight to the airport and reported for duty, waaaaaaaaay over limits (I assume they've since received their P45's).

You seem to think I'm asking whether its necessary to be social. Which I was not. Like I said in my post, I wouldnt wanna spend hours sat next to a miserable git. My point was that I didnt feel it was right to be expected to drink, just to fit in, and the replies before yours seem to mostly agree with this. You yourself made the point that every wannabe should come across as someone that can fly for 12 hours, then

still go down the drink for a bar afterwards

...so I guess you feel it IS a part of being a pilot.



Scroggs, I would like to think that the character I mentioned was telling wartime stories, or infact lying, but the truth of it is that this did happen - and it was a newly qualified pilot, working for a legit UK airline. I'm glad that its not at all representative of UK aviation, but its still scary to think that that kind of person is out there in the air.

[On speed on profile]

Captain Sccoby.

1. Most definately not pissed.

2. Can you name "said" company so the punters and our fellow colleagues can give it a wide berth.

3. I dont work for BA but have seen the documentary you talk about. From what I heard, the pilots were set up by a repoter posing as a hostie and from what I remember, they werent too bright about what was happening either. If you choose to use that as an example, at least bring up other CREDIBLE arguments. Other wise dont tarnish all pilots with the same rubbish!

4. You missed MY point. If you are sensible, you already know the answer to your question! You should also know the answer to this next question, do you want another drink? you wont get tested tomorrow it will be ok!

If you dont, change company or your ways before you kill someone!

[On speed on profile]

CS

i am not talking about you personaly here nor your integrity as a professional pilot. i am questioning your ability to answer your own question sensibly! its not a difficult question to answer. every professional pilot on this forum can answer your question, why cant you? come to think of it. any responsible adult should be able to answer this very very basic question!

[A320rider]

long time ago, when I was flying for my privat license, I did a stop on a small regional airfield to meet a friend, and we took a beer at the local pub just close of the tarmac.
my flight instructor told me it was ok to drink only ONE small beer.
guess what? afterthat my friend, this jealous bastard, told to my parents I was drinking and flying!

[Captain_Scooby]

OSOP, I'm not saying that I would be prepared to drink if that's what it took to fit in. My question was "Is this standard?". In the airline I worked for, it WAS standard. And to be frank, I didnt like it. I've never been one for getting 'wasted' and I never will be.

I clearly pointed out that I imagine the BA pilots in question had probably received their P45's. If anyone's tarnishing pilots reputations, its those suggesting that drinking IS part of being a pilot (coincidentally, its that attitude thats going to kill people). Perhaps you'd like to reread your posts. As for credible sources, I hardly think 'from what you heard' is particularly credible :eek:. For all we know, that could have been a set up, yes. But the flipside of the coin is that it could have been completely genuine. It still made it into the public domain, and like I say, I have friends that still remember the documentary, as long ago as it was.

If I've missed your point, then try making it clear. You've made a couple of contradictions now, so what IS your point - is drinking necessary to survive in this industry, or not? Will a pilot who doesnt touch alcohol, be as succesful as those who do?

I already have my opinion, and I certainly didnt come on here intending to work out whether or not I should change my lifestyle. I'm just interested to know if others feel that what I have seen, represents the UK aviation industry. Which, for clarity, I do not believe does.

[On speed on profile]

CS.

I have just re read my posts and, nope, i havent contradicted myself. I was trying to give you a bit of credit by not making you look like such a fool but seeing as you cant answer your own simple questions, I will first clarify the points I was making so you dont mis-understand what I was saying and then answer the questions you should already know as someone in the industry.

My points:

1. Pilots are sociable people, it is one of the reasons they suit the modern CRM environment.

2. Sociable people often meet to socialise. They could meet at a bar, at home, at a rugby game, at a restaurant ........... Anywhere neutral and away from work pressures normally and they can talk to like minded people.

3. It is safe to assume that as pilots are naturally sociable people, they could meet at a bar and have a drink or two if they feel the need. Sometimes, it is necessary for pilots to socialise so they fit in and create good CRM. Especially in small to medium sized companies. This does not mean pilots have to drink or socialise fot that matter but as they are probably happy with 1 and 2 above, socialising is not a problem.

4. Some airline employees meet regularly in the bar to socialise. I know this from personal experience. In my situation, it was company culture to go to the bar to socialise. There was no pressure to drink, it was the PARTICIPATION that counted and the bar was the best and closest place for everyone to do that.

5. Our Chief Pilot expected (like every single chief pilot should, not to mention the paying public) that we should turn up to work fully rested and with a blood alcohol level below the legal minimum.

6. EVERY PROFESSIONAL PILOT KNOWS THAT TO DO NUMBER 5 SUCCESSFULLY, YOU CANT REALISTICLY GO TO A BAR AND HAVE A FEW PINTS OF BEER OR WHATEVER YOUR TIPPLE MAY BE.

7. A PROFESSIONAL (and successful pilot) will see socialising with colleagues as a valuable experience and at the same time they will know their own limits and make sure that number 5 above always happens!


Right, now that I have had to do that, here are the answers to your questions! Do you already know them yet?

Just how important are social skills, in particular drinking, in terms of getting a job? Dont get me wrong - I'm not

Social skills are very important at getting an aviation job. Does this mean getting pissed with colleagues or having the interpersonal skills to talk to them without being pissed? Only you as an individual can answer that! If you need alcohol to socialise and hence get a job I would say that you a)probably arent suited to the job and b) have a problem that might best be dealt with at A.A. And seeing as you havent understood me so far, I am not talking about you personally CP, its a rhetorical question! Would you like me to give the definition of a rhetorical question?

If a company requires you to get drunk before you go flying just to fit in I (and all my PROFESSIONAL pilot colleagues) would suggest that company is not worth working for nor one which I would hope paying passengers bought tickets.

If a company requires/likes you to socialise to fit in then I would say it is a typical company. WHO WANTS TO WORK WITH A BUNCH OF SELFMOTIVATED UNINTERESTING STIFFS WITH NO LIFE!

Is the "We are pilots, we must get very drunk until we cannot stand up, because it is the done thing" attitude common in this industry, or have I just been subjected to a very small and non-representative group?



No, it is not a common attitude. IT DOES NOT EXIST AMONGST PROFESSIONAL PILOTS!

Yes, you have been subjected to a very sad and pathetic part of the industry. I feel sorry for you for that but lets hope you can handle the "said " company if you are "lucky enough" to get a job there!



I cant belive you cant answer these questions. How can an operator in these days of regulation operate with a 'policy' like the one you are suggesting in your original post?

PROFESSIONAL PILOTS DONT CONDONE THE SORT OF BEHAVIOUR YOU HAVE STATED HAPPENS IN THE INDUSTRY. IF THEY DO, THEY ARE NOT PROFESSIONAL PILOTS!

Just for the record, you brought the BA pilots drinking thing up, not me! Therefore, why dont you clarify if it is real or not. I suggest to you that you take everything the jounos take with a pinch of salt. They are of course only 'telling you' what their point of the story was. I heard something, you heard something, it doesnt matter unless there is proof!
Even if it is true, and I am not saying it is! PROFESSIONAL PILOTS WOULDNT CONDONE ANY OF THEIR PROFESSIONAL COLLEAGUES ACTIONS IF THEY WERE DO WHAT "SUPPOSEDLY" HAPPENED IN THE BA DRINKING PILOTS DOCUMENTARY! I certainly wouldnt.

DO I HAVE TO MAKE MYSELF CLEARER?

I SAY AGAIN!

DO I HAVE TO MAKE MYSELF CLEARER?


Just to answer the question in your last post.

so what IS your point - is drinking necessary to survive in this industry, or not? Will a pilot who doesnt touch alcohol, be as succesful as those who do?


Drinking skills are NOT necessary to succeed in the aviation industry as a PROFESSIOANL PILOT. Social skills most definately are! Pilots who dont touch alcohol are in every way going to be as successful as pilots who do. As long as they have the necessary social skills!

CP, PLEASE ACKNOWLEDGE!

I SAY AGAIN, DO I HAVE TO MAKE MYSELF CLEARER?

I SAY AGAIN DO I HAVE TO MAKE MYSELF CLEARER?

ACKNOWLEDGE?


OSOP

[Captain_Scooby]

Roger, Complete Moron Who Clearly Likes The Sound Of His Own Voice, Captain_Scooby has received message, but thinks its a load of old balls.

Where do I start!

I have just re read my posts and, nope, i havent contradicted myself.

No one critised us if we didnt drink alcohol

In my experience, only children (read: young adults) and adults who act like children have ever given me grief about not drinking

Okay, so there's a contradiction. I guess that means I can take the rest of your posting with a pinch of salt. I've proved you wrong ALREADY! Goddammit, that was easy. Just to prove it wasnt a one-off, here's another:

you didnt fit in if you didnt go down the bar for a drink after flying

This does not mean pilots have to drink or socialise fot that matter

Moving swiftly on.....

I was trying to give you a bit of credit by not making you look like such a fool but seeing as you cant answer your own simple questions

Clearly you're so self-centred, you're only interested in what YOU want to say. Read my post again and you'll see I've already formed an opinion - I'm simply interested in others views (except yours). Perhaps thats why you hang around on a Wannabe's forum - makes you feel like you're actually something special!


Would you like me to give the definition of a rhetorical question?


If you so wish - it appears you like the sound of your own voice!



Finally, I think I'll point our your CRM skills are appalling. You keep referring to how you are a PROFESSIONAL, but you've demonstrated anything but such a manner. I for one hope I never have the unfortunate duty of sharing a flightdeck with you. You'd probably be drunk.

[AerocatS2A]

Scooby, you're an idiot. However, I am happy to answer your question for you.

Social skills are important in getting a job and in being a good crew member.

Drinking alcohol is not important in getting a job or being a good crew member.

Is that clear enough for you? Did you really need to post this thread to get that answer? Is it not self evident?