Is a NVFR rating necessary?

[Looks2Young]

I am about to start my ME-CIR and I am weighing up whether to do a NVFR rating or just 10 hours night with 5 PIC.

Are there any operators in WA who require, or look favourably upon, a NVFR rating?

Will it pay off by giving me more options to build night time (in the charter world) than just having the MECIR.

I realise you can fly NVFR charter if you have a MECIR, but would having the NVFR rating first make that privelege of the MECIR easier to exercise?

Any thoughts comments would be appreciated.

[Chadzat]

I have been advised just to do the 5hrs night command if you are going on to do CIR anyway. having a current (and that is important as if its not current then neither is your NVFR) CIR gives you NVFR priviliges anyway in the type of a/c you did the CIR in. Ie if you do a ME CIR then you can fly NVFR in both twin and single.

the extra 5 hrs dual flying to get just the NVFR seems to be a waste of money to me.

[Pinky the pilot]

Back when I did my CPL (1985) it was a requirement to have a valid Night VMC as it was then called to be able to undertake the CPL Flight test. Why the requirement was abolished is beyond me but I am of the opinion that it should still be in effect.
To me the reason is quite simple. Try a take off on a moonless night off a runway into a night time vista as 'black as old Nick's a**e' and you'll soon get the idea. A M/E command IFR rating will not give any experience into such conditions. By the same token, a night VFR landing is 'a little bit different' (my old Instructor's words) to a daytime landing. Therefore I would strongly recommend some night flying training. Of course, others may disagree.

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

[The Bunglerat]

If IFR operations in real IMC is challenging enough by day, try dealing with it after dark! IMHO, not enough emphasis is given to this most demanding aspect of flying. As for me, I happened to have a NVFR Rating with quite a few hours before doing my Instrument Rating, but the school I trained with provided for only one night IFR exercise in their syllabus (a grand total of 3-&-a-bit hours). Shortly thereafter I was signed off as licensed to thrill. Talk about being thrown in the deep end! A few years later when I had gained some experience and was teaching multi/IFR myself, I discovered nothing had changed.

I don't think there is anything much more challenging (and potentially dangerous) than conducting a circling approach in marginal weather - at night. I for one am glad that I had some experience from my NVFR Rating to help ease the transition somewhat, but all training providers should be giving more serious consideration as to how they train students to deal better with this most important area of IFR operations. One night IFR nav just doesn't cut it.

My advice? Take every opportunity you can to gain experience at night - VFR or IFR. Needless to say, you should see a dramatic improvement in your performance by day, although that's not the reason why you do it.

[Mainframe]

Looks2Young

No, it's not necessary, but try to look at the big picture.

Let's assume you're a fresh low hour CPL.

OK, so with 200 hours and a command ME IR (A) you turn yourself loose on the industry.

There are extremely few operators who will put you in command of ME IFR caharter until you have almost 1,000hrs.
Mostly you probably won't get to do SE VFR charter until you have 500 hrs.

(There are exceptions, generally amongst the bottom feeders who probably won't be paying you anything except a subsistance).

So you've got a long wait to get to use the MECIR, plus a few renewals.

Your ultimate goal is a front seat in an airline jet. You need an ATPL. That requires 1,500 hrs, incl 75 IF and 100 Night, plus the subjects.

Most aspiring ATPL'ers rack up the 1,500 hrs, and the 75 IF, but a large proportion stall on the night hours.

Still with me ? Ok, you go bush with a NVFR (ME or SE). Now here's what often happens.

A charter (SE VFR) crops up in the afternoon, there's enough time to drop the pax at their destination before dark
and for you to get airborne (before last light) on your way home.
You are able to do the charter because you have a NVFR to get yourself home (without pax).

The operator gets his aircraft home that night so it can do an early morning scenic / charter / freight run.
If you didn't have a NVFR, you would have stayed the night somewhere that's not quite what you're accustomed to,
the aircraft won't be available to the operator till you get back to base etc etc.

Are you starting to see a win-win here?, you get to accumulate the hard to get night hours, the operator gets better utilisation.

So on your way to getting the 1,000 hrs to fly ME IFR Charter, you're actually getting the night hrs put away as well.

Some schools, such as the big one at Tamworth, don't understand this and you don't get a NVFR.
You get to watch the other guys with a NVFR get to rack up SE NVFR hours.

Digest it for what it's worth, a lot have already done so.

Hope this helps, and in the early part of your career a NVFR may actually be of more benefit than a MECIR,
but by all means do the MECIR and add the NVFR to it at the same time.

Also consider at issue of your MECIR, get a PIFR issued at the same time with the same ratings.
The PIFR does not have the recency requirements of the CIR, something to think about in the bush away from a sim.

Providing you are positioning without pax, in either a SE or ME IFR aircraft, you can shoot a practice approach on your PIFR in vmc or imc,
which will reinstate your CIR recency for that aid.

OK, so you're now going to rack up a few night hours that you would have missed out on,
and you can keep some recency up and some proficiency ready for your CIR renewals while waiting to get to use it.

Have a think about, your call. And enjoy the journey.

MF

[bullamakanka]

The post by mainframe is pretty good advice, especially if you will be looking for a job with 200 hrs.

It will give you and your employeer much more flexibility.

If you can afford the extra flying go for it, its good fun too!

Bulla..

[Looks2Young]

Thanks for your responses they were all very helpful.
Cheers Mainframe for your well thought out advice.

[Dragon 1]

This advice will be to late for you. But anyone still doing a PPL or CPL, a NVFR is a must. And to do it separately is a rort from the flying schools. You will have to do a test at night and maybe a nav or two exercise at night seperately. But the rest of the training should be done in conjunction with the normal CPL component. I can`t for the life of me understand why an instructor (well I actually can)wouldn`t take the oppurtunity to fly at night whenever possible. As night hours take the longest to get with regard to your full ATPL.
I was told by my instructor with all his wisdom and charter experience(NONE) that a NVFR is pointless if your are going do to a ME-CIR. The first question every employer asked me when I went for a job was do you have a NVFR.
Mainframe is right on the money.

[rifdas]

Looks 2 Young
Some great advice from Dragon 1 and Mainframe.
The advantage of having a NVFR is if your CIR expires you can
still fly SE/ ME at night for repositioning etc.You may need a ME night
check to conduct ME NVFR opps .Check the regs .Was the way years ago.
Rifdas

[100% Ng]

If you have a instrument rating and wish to use it for NVFR you must meet the following requirements.

For private & aeriel work you must meet the aeronautical and recency requirements for night VFR. CAO 40.2.2 Appendix 1

For Charter you must have 10 hrs x/country flight time using NVFR, including 2 nav's of at least 300 nm or 3 hrs duration. Must also meet recency requirements.

To me sounds easier to just do the night VFR endorsment as you will still need 10hrs night and you'll have an extra endorsment for minimal extra cost (cost of flight test). When just starting out you will be likely operating VFR for a year or 2 and might not be able to afford to keep renewing your instrument rating if you are not using it. At least you can still operate under NVFR.

[turbantime]

100% Ng

Holding a NVFR rating only allows you to operate under PVT and AWK operations.

CAO 40.2.2 Para 3.1

3 AUTHORITY GIVEN BY RATING
3.1 Subject to subsections 5 and 6, a night V.F.R. rating authorises the holder of the rating:
(a) in the case of an aeroplane grade of night V.F.R. rating — to fly as pilot in command of aeroplanes having a take-off weight not exceeding 5 700 kg on private or aerial work flights within Australia by night under the V.F.R

So if you were to conduct a M/E NVFR charter, it'd have to be under the privelage of your CIR assuming you meet the aeronautical experience requirements.

[100% Ng]

turbantime,

Too true.

[glenb]

consider also that the guy or gal with the nvfr and the ifr may be able to operate under the nvfr and not the ifr due to an instrument unseviceability. if you read the caos, you will see that having an ifr does not always give you the privileges of the nvfr

[Sexual Chocolate]

There is one outfit that I know of - in Wyndham (north of Kunnunurra). Fairly uncommon prequisite for first jobz. (the VFR scenic crap anyway)

[Mainframe]

Turbantime

Yes you're right about the CAO, there is provision to fly ME NVFR Charter in an aircraft that is NVFR equipped, but, under the auspices of a CIR. Untangling IF recency is an interesting path for this NVFR privilege;


CAO 40.2.1 - sub-section 14 (page 15)
Para 14.1 - a particular grade of command instrument rating authorises the holder of the rating to fly an aircraft of the category concerned within Australia as pilot in command, or co-pilot, using the navigation aids endorsed in the holder's personal logbook in the following circumstances:
(a) - private and aerial work flights under the night VFR procedures, provided the pilot meets the aeronautical and recent experience requirements applicable to a night VFR endorsement.
(b) - Charter flights under the night VFR procedures, provided the following aeronautical and recent experience requirements are met

This goes on to list the NVFR requirements.

Anyway, it was suggested on non pax carrying positioning flights that your opportunity will exist.

Note that I suggested you ask to have issued a PIFR when you get the CIR.

Similarly, it will let you accrue some useful IFR hours and approaches (Company permitting you) on private category positioning flights.
Your PIFR is valid for two years, no recency on any aids, and can be automatically renewed by virtue of a CIR renewal.

All it costs is the current CASA clerical fee, used to be $15, probably now either $65 or $130 on top of the CIR, ask for it concurrently with the CIR.

All CIR aids need to be added as "FPA's", same thing.

It is worth reading up about this, it does have it's uses, but do the CIR first.

[compressor stall]

Do it as part of your 70 hours dual for CPL. After getting your PPL, you should have some dual hours left to burn to make up the minimum for CPL issue. Then it effectively costs you $0.

Mainframe is on the money re employability.

[turbantime]

Completely agree with getting the PIFR along with CIR. Back when I did it, it was case of filling out a piece of paper and $10.

Proved very useful as a mate that owned a twin would ask me to fly it for him and since I didn't have to meet the CIR recency would do so under the IFR (using personal safety limits of course). Others missed out on this opportunity when I was unavailable simply because they didn't have the initiative to cross the road and fill out the form at the local CASA office....go figure!! :hmm:

This allowed me to get some good IFR twin time while predominately working as a S/E VFR pilot which inevitably helped in getting my twin training approval and then my current gig as twin IFR driver.

My motto as I went through and indeed go through my career is to have all the relevant ratings and keep them valid/current.....you just never know when you'll get a break...and you'd better be ready with open arms or opportunities will pass you by.

Good luck :ok:

[Aerlik]

Take heed of what the guys have written here, as it is all good stuff. I just wish I had known about the scam that schools at Jandakot are up to, that is, telling you AFTER your CPL that you could, in fact, have done your NVFR as part of your course thus saving you a few thousand bucks. Also, if you don't yet have a multi-engine endo, look into the possibility of a ME-NVFR at the same time. Again, saving you the money.