Use of ex-Service rank titles

[LFittNI]

I'd like to know what other PPRuNers think about this.
It seems to me (strictly on the basis of a non-scientific survey) that the use of ex-service titles is becoming more and more widespread. There always used to be the archetypal Group Captain Binky Huckerback in the obligatory rose festooned cottage, but these retired affectations seem to be spreading wider and wider.
Why on earth do people think, as presumably they do, that this confers some sort of cache' in ex-service life? Fine, I suppose, if they want to chat up the Dame Celia Molestrangler equivalent, but when they want a job?
I have employed, and interviewed, a fair number of ex-RAF officers and NCO's. None of the ex-NCO's, following custom and practice, use their service ranks, but an increasing number of ex-officers do. I admit to becoming quite jaundiced about this and have developed a little teasing routine on the lines of:-
ex-officer: "Hello, I'm Group Captain Smith"
Me: "Hello....what a strange Christian name you have"
This produces a highly satisfactory stunned look, which throws them off their guard nicely so that we can begin the interview. :)

[Milt]

LFittN1

And then you introduce yourself as the Tea Lady do you?

[The Helpful Stacker]

LFittN1
And then you introduce yourself as the Tea Lady do you?

Oh come on, he's got a point.

Group Captain is almost the equivalent of being a managing director these days but you'd hardly go around introducing yourself as 'Managing Director Smythe' to people would you (unless at work)?

Be proud of your time served but for Christ sake, let it go. Next thing you know you'll be that drunk fellow in the corner at the Kings Head everyone calls 'the Major'.

:rolleyes:

[jayteeto]

Why not?? I don't personally, but you earn the right to do it if you want to. It is something to be proud of, so don't slag them off for their service history and pride in their achievements. The US are proud of their ex-servicemen and women and people show it in public. This attitude stinks, should WW2 veterans stop wearing their medals in case people think they are showing off, or maybe ask the Chelsea pensioners to wear tracksuits. :mad:

[uknasa]

"Group Captain is almost the equivalent of being a managing director these days"

Clearly never worked in the real world Helpful Stacker!!

[PPRuNe Pop]

I think you will find it was Captain and above. However, I would have thought fewer people do it now than used to. Especially as first names are used more and more.

[Bertie Thruster]

I'm pleased to observe that the drunk fellow in the corner is usually "the Major" but never "the Squadron Leader"

[The Helpful Stacker]

"Group Captain is almost the equivalent of being a managing director these days"
Clearly never worked in the real world Helpful Stacker!!

Oh course, silly me. I meant Group Captain was almost the equivalent of tea boy these days, what with the seemingly unstoppable growth of the officer classes these days.

More air ranked officers than flying sqn's, yes please.

Picture the scene, RAF Sleepy On the Snooze in the year 2020. Group Captain I/C MT CES Store attempts to tell one of the 12 Sqn Ldr's on shift to clean a car......

;)

[Controversial Tim]

Hardly surprising. I mean, who on earth would want to admit to being an ex-NCO?

[petitfromage]

Actually I think Deliverance is correct......if memory serves Queens Regulations state that if you attain the rank of MAJ, LTCDR or SQNLDR (or above) you may elect to use it as a title and form of address for life.

Someone please dig up the exact wording?

LFittNI.......if you have 'issues' with it, or some sort of complex (?) the answer is clear. You should take it up with Her Majesty! (As you are clearly superior, witty and clever, Im sure you have a direct line? ;) )

Tall poppy syndrome..... Why is this an issue worthy of a thread?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Hardly surprising. I mean, who on earth would want to admit to being an ex-NCO?

Or rather who would feel so ill-prepared for life outside the RAF than those who choose to use their previous job title in an attempt to impress someone enough to give them some sort of job to keep them out of trouble?

[Tex37]

I for one wouldn't introduce myself as the technical director of xxx ltd if I had left. Why should it be different for ex military? If I earn a title in one job then when I change jobs I have to prove myself and earn my position, when I leave - it's gone.

Also many of the (younger) public don't have much comprehension of military titles anyway so it means nothing to them.

Sure I don't want to disparage any former military personel ,especially those who have fought for countries etc they have made a great sacrifice in what they have done, but credit where credit is due.

[Gus T Breeze]

I'm soon to be an ex-military officer and can't wait to be plain old 'Mr'! I think it's pretentious in the extreme to be addressed by one's former military rank. Generally speaking, it appears that those who hang on to their former life have a vastly over-inflated opinion of their importance in the big scheme of things.

[petitfromage]

Titles, Rank....honestly its not a big deal is it? QRs allow it if one feels so inclined.

Now masquerading as an Officer thats odd......

I recently had dinner with some friends in the good ol'USA. One member of the group (unknown to me prior) was wearing a USN Officers uniform (LTJG, a couple of meaningless ribbons and submariners dolphins)

After a few questions/answers he told me he left the USN 8years ago having done 2/5s of a dog watch in the USN.
He wasnt in the Reserve/Guard.....he just liked wearing his uniform & hat out on the town from time to time.

A quick show of hands from the other guests revealed that they all thought it was wonderful, patriotic and entirely appropriate.

Poor old LFittNI......you'd have kittens old boy!!! :p

[brickhistory]

He wasnt in the Reserve/Guard.....he just liked wearing his uniform & hat out on the town from time to time.
A quick show of hands from the other guests revealed that they all thought it was wonderful, patriotic and entirely appropriate.



This guy is/was sad. Unless he's still connected in some way (and even then it should be some sort of appropriate social function), then's he's just a sad, old wanna-be. (As well as illegal as well.)

My opinion, fwiw, is the rank is for when serving. After retirement, (which is only a couple more years!), it's a nice accomplishment to tuck into the memories - then MOVE ON!

[bushbolox]

generally speaking this topic is a major issue. As a former captain of industry i find it deplorable you should all be corporally punish with a beating from a rod made of KERNAL shavings. but as you are the first officers to recieve it, it will be done in a private. And then just like rent dodging evictee you will be a left tennant

ps I am pissed sah

[Archimedes]

I thought Major and above were entitled to use that rank as their titles when they retired. Someone learned like Archimedes would surely know.

I think you meant 'Someone learned or failing that, Archimedes', but I'll give it a shot.

The custom is for those of the rank of Captain and above (and RAF and RN eqivalents) to be allowed to employ their former ranks. ISTR a discussion here some years ago as to whether it was bad form for someone to insist on being called 'Flight Lieutenant Binky Volewarbler' when he was a Flt Lt retired. The conclusion was that a) yes he was and b) he was nevertheless a bit of a t!t for so doing.

Debretts has it that:

Field Marshals remain on the active list for life and so continue to use this rank. Other regular officers of the rank of captain and above may use, and be addressed by, their rank after being placed on the retired list.

The word 'retired' (abbreviated to 'Retd') should not be added after an officer's name in ordinary correspondence or in lists, but only when it is specifically necessary to indicate that an officer is on the retired list, eg, one employed in a civilian capacity in a Ministry of Defence establishment, when it facilitates postal arrangements.'

While I see jayteeto's point, Debrett's suggests that it is usually bad form to use the rank of Captain (or equivalent) on retirement if not being employed in a civilian capacity. Captain Mark Philips is an exception to this, since the origins of it being used came from the press, who referred to him as 'Captain Mark Philips' when he was competing in the 3 Day eventing team. When he was engaged to Princess Anne, the press continued to refer to him as 'Captain Mark Philips'. I believe that he never sought to use the title himself, and referred (and still does?) to himself simply as 'Mark Philips'.

Finally, given that the two most famous civilian Captains are Captains Peacock (are you free, mr Humphries?) and Captain Mainwearing, I'm not sure that it would necessarily be wise for the rank to be used, since it might well be ridiculed... And using rank might be a bad idea now Al-Qa'eda wannabes have attempted to target members of the armed forces (viz the recent case involving a plot against a chap awarded the CGC for his efforts in places sandy), and are probably likely to do so again - not necessarily making the distinction between serving and retired.

[UNCTUOUS]

Well personally, having been in three different Air Forces, I must admit that I do like dressing up and going out on the town all ranked up. With three different uniforms and eras to choose from, I find that I can mix and match more easily and still achieve that militaria look that was so beloved of Carnaby Street in the late 60's. I also have a wide range of medals and miniatures that I can choose from. My long hair (see below) and the caps and berets are a bit of a challenge though.
.
Of course the sex-change that I had in the middle there somewhere does tend to complicate the wardrobe somewhat. But especially after that sea-change in my life, I have found that I do so much like a man in uniform. It really turns my head.

[henry crun]

There was the case of a wing commander who retired from the RNZAF and moved to a new town and a new house.

He had to fill in a form for his new phone number to be included in the next issue of the local phone book, and he prefixed his name with W/C.
The people who processed the form were obviously confused by this abbreviation because when the new phone book came out there he was J, Smith, welding contractor. :)

[WorkingHard]

Many years ago I was interviewing for a fairly senior post in my company and the applicant was a retiring Wg Cmdr. When I enquired about his qualification for the job (which had been omitted on his application form) the response was "But I am a Wg Cmdr old chap, that should be all the qualifaction you need" Thank goodness those days are long gone (aren't they?) No one would do that these days!

[aviate1138]

Working Hard said...
"Many years ago I was interviewing for a fairly senior post in my company and the applicant was a retiring Wg Cmdr. When I enquired about his qualification for the job (which had been omitted on his application form) the response was "But I am a Wg Cmdr old chap, that should be all the qualifaction you need" Thank goodness those days are long gone (aren't they?) No one would do that these days!"
Aviate 1138 well remembers my father phoning an ex Army neighbour " Is that you Hodgson?" about some Church Fete matter and hearing my father explode as his neighbour replied "Lt Colonel Hodgson speaking".
My father, bless his heart, replied "If I had wanted to speak to the f***ing War Office I would have dialled the f***ing War Office!" Just about the only time I heard my Old Man swear until I was much older. The Lt Colonel turned out to be a Pay Corps type and never left the UK during WW2.
The post Service Rank thing is fading away isn't it? I know a retired AVM who flew Lightnings at displays [Farnborough etc] that took one's breath away but only those closest to him even know he was in the RAF. He never mentions it. Let alone demands the title.
Aviate 1138

[petitfromage]

Following on from Henry Cruns lead, I did a quick search on the NZ online phonebook. www.whitepages.co.nz

Searches for MAJ, CDR, COL, CAPT etc revealed over 500 people who prefer to be 'titled'.
Over 300 Knights of the Realm (totally justified to be known by their title) and then I searched "Dr"..........and now we have a quandry.

Does one consider non-medical Doctors in the same way...or if they are no longer working in the field of their Doctorate, should they drop the title too?

Storm in a tea cup really isnt it!?

[Krystal n chips]

Many years ago I was interviewing for a fairly senior post in my company and the applicant was a retiring Wg Cmdr. When I enquired about his qualification for the job (which had been omitted on his application form) the response was "But I am a Wg Cmdr old chap, that should be all the qualifaction you need" Thank goodness those days are long gone (aren't they?) No one would do that these days!


Erm, not so it would seem based on personal experience. Had a "conversation" with a recruitment "consultant" a couple of years ago and was told, "perfect fit" blah, blah---then came the "oh dear, I see you were only an airman---sorry, but you wouldn't have any project management skills unless you had been an officer"-----not the first time I encountered this perception either. A couple of tertiary level quals plus experience counted for nothing it seemed in his / their perception----only the former rank mattered.

[airborne_artist]

Had a "conversation" with a recruitment "consultant" a couple of years ago and was told, "perfect fit" blah, blah---then came the "oh dear, I see you were only an airman

I ran a recruitment project for a large Swedish telecoms co about 7 years ago and they hired a bunch of former RN and RAF NCOs and were thrilled with them all. Spoke to one of them recently - he's on £120,000 :ok:

[Kitbag]

I think Archimedes has it absolutely right, if they have earned their rank at the level of RN Captain and above, or equivalent, then let them use it. The example of the two captains he refers to, though fictional, does reveal how some ex officers (although of course both of those chaps were merely Army captains) are perceived by the public. On the whole though, I believe it is a dangerous game advertising your previous service to a country which at best doesn't care anymore and at worst will have you targetted for being associated with some 'military outrage' reported by the excellent and balanced media we seem to have here. ;)


Before anyone from the Army has a go, I mean 'merely' in terms of how far up the tree the guys are, not that Army commisions should not receive the same respect as the other services, although one does wonder where the inspiration for Peacock and Mainwearing came from.

Bugger, I'll go and find a spade, I think my hole needs digging deeper :ok:

[Talking Radalt]

I tend to find with any custom like this those who deserve it most tend to shy away from the attention, whilst those who don't, remind everyone at every oppportunity and insist on the ettiquette being applied.

"Do you know who I am?!!!"

"No, now fcuk off"

[CashMachine]

Following on from Krystal n Chips post.
Would you really want to work for a company that was so narrow minded that they couldn't see past the rank and look at your actual qualifications and experience?
I wouldn't be surprised if there were a company out there who would also say "Oh, you were only a Flt Lt!!".

[engineer(retard)]

My own experience is that the ex-senior officers using their titles are often on the sales side of the businees and use their old rank as a lever to get in to places that your average sales manager would struggle with. However, unless you are good at what you do your new career will last as long as your contacts from your previous life are in influential posts, then its off to the allotment.

Outside of that, you may be viewed as an anachronism and may be laughed at by employees who are now too young to have done active service and have no concept of rank. Particularly the yoof who think that Wing Commander is a Playstation game.

Other than that, rank may place you on a career path when you first leave but your own abilities carry you after that. Like AA, I have seen many ex SNCOs do very well when they leave, many just lack the confidence to pitch themselves when they first leave. Likewise, some senior ex-officers struggle to adapt to a different world. Carrying your rank outside is double edge sword and I would advise that you are selective how you use it.


regards

retard

[WorkingHard]

I just feel it is very sad that some (some mark you) have not been taught or learnt that life and respect outside is very dependant on your abilities and not on your last post. Those few who leave the Services with the belief they are God's gift to the nation are, thankfully, few and far between. They do however have a disproportionate effect on the perception of the many who never experienced Service life and the way we are viewed.

[effortless]

Any way it's LAC Effortless to you!:}

[airborne_artist]

My own experience is that it's a generational thing:

My father-in-law joined his regt from Sandhurst in 1938 - by 1941 (aged 21) he was an acting Major in Burma, and left the Army as a Major, and was always known as Major Bloggs. My father left Dartmouth at 18 in 1951, and retired as a Captain. He never used his rank again. His boss discovered he had a CBE and told him to re-print his business cards with it on!

My FiL had a tough and nasty war, and left with only campaign medals - his rank was the only sign he'd served his country. My father served entirely in peacetime, with the exception of some skirmishes early in his career, and the FI in 82, in which he played a significant, but UK desk-driving role.

[LFittNI]

Mmmm, thanks to all for the interesting contributions.
I started the thread to emphasise what I see as an increasing frequency of the honorific title useage. If QR's state it's a (qualified) right then, I suppose, you can carry on playing with it.
However, as numerous posters have pointed out--don't expect la gloire to carry over into civilian life. It is that, essentially somewhat arrogant, attitude that causes so much surprise when said ex-officer finds he doesn't have the managerial or commercial nous to make the grade.
To compensate, we engaged an excellent Support manager a couple of years ago--only found out last month (I didn't interview him) that he is an ex-RN Weapons engineer (Lt.Cmdr). He runs an excellent division and I'll have him as a Director pretty soon. It all depends on attitude as well as ability.
Petitfromage (now there's a Freudian slip for you!) seems to think I'm some sort of class warrior. Hardly, old chap, just the minor public schoolboy's attitude to fairness coming out.
Yes, I'm an ex-SNCO, who was just fascinated by navigation electronics--and remain so. I wasn't going to give up having my hands deep inside the surreal innards of a GPI Mk.4 (ahhh--the Secant gear!) for a couple of rings on the sleeve and a desk full of paper. My choice, and my career ambitions have been realised elewhere, in civilian life as a director of several companies.

[WorkingHard]

Well done to you LFittNI, intelligence and ability will out.

[A2QFI]

If the best I could have managed was Captain in the Army I would not have wasted time calling myself Captain M*rk Philips!

[pigsinspace]

Engineer said "Carrying your rank outside "

sorry to dissapoint you old chap but your rank stops at the camp gates.

[Kitbag]

Pigsinspace, please read the whole thread, rank does not stop at the camp gates and nor should it. :ok:

[pigsinspace]

Pigsinspace, please read the whole thread, rank does not stop at the camp gates and nor should it. :ok:


Try telling your next door neighbour ( I do not mean married quaters) you are Sqn Ldr Blah.. he will be very impressed..

what makes you think that you are different to anyone else with a (rank) ie MD, supervisor, charge hand etc?

You leave the service you leave behind the rank ( unless you need it as a crutch)

how many ex arline pilots still call themselves Captain? or First Officer?

[Kitbag]

Pigsinspace

I'm not. Read the thread, and please read my posts elsewhere. Just waiting for the union, oops sorry federation. :ok:

[BEagle]

RAF Officers:

When placed on the retired list you will retain your substantive rank or if you have held higher acting rank you may qualify for retention of that rank under QR 3002. The retired list, which is published every 2 years, includes details of all such officers.

You are entitled to use and to be addressed by your rank after being placed on the retired list. There is no obligation to use 'RAF Ret'd' after your name provided 'RAF' is not used alone, but you would be expected to use 'RAF Ret'd' should you express personal views on subjects to avoid mistaken attribution to the MoD.

When leaving the RAF or on completion of your reserve service, you may be permitted to retain, as a courtesy title in civilian life, your substantive rank providing you are of the rank of Flight Lieutenant or above and have completed at least 3 years on the Active List. If you have held higher acting rank you may qualify for retention of that rank under QR 3002 which gives the general rules.

[SPIT]

I knew a VRT Officer who had the rank of Flt/Lt who when he retired because of age STILL USED the title of Flt/Lt ******* ???:mad: ;)

[pigsinspace]

as a courtesy title in civilian life, your substantive rank providing you are of the rank of Flight Lieutenant or above and have completed at least 3 years on the Active List. If you have held higher acting rank you may qualify for retention of that rank under QR 3002 which gives the general rules.

Thats fine if civilians understand the RAF rank structure... probably only about 5-10% understand it.
The other 90% percent could not give a toss and if you carry on with your rank will be given the title of Pompus old pratt..

Gone are the days OF WW2 when the "ranked" war heros were alive.

this is 2006 no one outside cares if you were a Flt Lt or above IAW QR blah blah blah.

leave the service leave the rank...move on ...2 years to go here

[Flight Detent]

Hi all,

On this subject of retired rank, as an ex serviceman myself, is that only "Air rank", "General rank" or "Admiral rank" may be used after retirement in the form of "....-retired"

Thats the way its always been as far as I am aware!

Cheers, FD :uhoh:

[Controversial Tim]

Yes, I'm an ex-SNCO, who was just fascinated by navigation electronics--and remain so. ..... My choice, and my career ambitions have been realised elewhere, in civilian life as a director of several companies.So you're not allowed to use your old rank 'cos you were never important enough, but you're desperate to tell us how important you think you are now - and are hacked off at another ex-Serviceman who is still proud of what he/she had achieved!

You could guess that some people are still proud of our Armed Forces. Take a deep breath and get over it.

[The Gorilla]

Ahh yes but it could prove to be a tadge counter productive today!!

Being a proud member of Tonys killing machine isn't something that looks good on your CV!!

:)

[LFittNI]

Not so controversial really, Controversial Tim. Read the thread properly and you will see that I was replying to petitfromage's false assumption.
Gosh....it's a disgrace that commissioned officers are not trained in rhetorical discourse or retrospective logic...wouldn't have happened in my day.....I blame all these comprehensive schools.....:}

[Controversial Tim]

Read it from the beginning. Posted on page 1.

Would have thought a 'Director of several companies' would have a better ability to assimilate and retain information.

But then again, you are just an ex knoccer so allowances must be made.

[LFittNI]

My point proven, I see!
Well done CT, you are hereby awarded another CSE to go with the Needlework! :hmm:

[Controversial Tim]

No. You were not just replying to littlecheese. You started the thread. Read your initial post again and don't be ashamed of your time in uniform, nor criticise others if they weren't.

PS Thanks for the CSE. I'll keep it somewhere really special.

[Krystal n chips]

I tend to find with any custom like this those who deserve it most tend to shy away from the attention, whilst those who don't, remind everyone at every oppportunity and insist on the ettiquette being applied.
"Do you know who I am?!!!"
"No, now fcuk off"

Or, having mentioned this thread to her this afternoon,you could follow the example of a lady friend of mine in the medical world who, when she met her new manager a couple of years ago was greeted with "Hello, I'm Sqdn Ldr xxxxx "--to which the reply was, "Well I used to be a Flt. Lt.----so f$$king what----tea and coffee are over there by the way ". As she said, start as you mean to go on although she wishes she had a video to capture the shock on his face at the time. :)

[Tourist]

Krystal.
He was merely demonstrating his lack of social awareness/life.
She however demonstrated an enormous chip, plus very poor forward planning.

[L J R]

So in 2006 we are more likely to be introduced to Flt Lt PVR'd instead of Flt Lt Ret'd (or Sqn Ldr PVR'd, in stead of Sqn Ldr Retd etc...).

I actually REALLY did see a 'FLGOFF Ret'd' once.....


My favourite is WOFF Retd. They are a 'special' breed.

[LFittNI]

Not so fast, Controversial Tim! Read my post to PetitFromage re. the "class warrior" comment--that's what the reference infers.
So glad you like the CSE--perhaps you can find a place to keep it along with the earrings, other bodily piercings and the tattoos!
Do try to keep up old boy, it spoils things for the rest of us.......:hmm:

[Wwyvern]

Slight change of direction. What happens to your post nominals, ie, DFC, OBE etc when you leave the service?

[Mystic Greg]

You keep them, so instead of writing to you as:

'Group Captain J J Wwyvern OBE DFC RAF'

I might write to you as:

'J J Wwyvern, Esq, OBE DFC'

And congratulations on your fine set of gongs!

[covec]

...and terrorists love to gain easy int...:D

[DC10RealMan]

My father is involved in organising travel arrangements for a group of army veterans and he has noticed that certain members of that group are very particular in making sure everyone knows their "rank" when it comes to superior accomodation and/or upgrading of the flight cabin. In itself it is not a problem but they expect the other members of the group to pay for it all as well!. Fortunately they very rarely succeed.

[chippy63]

One of my best recruitments was a retired RN signals CPO. He ran our global communications division like a swiss watch. He trained people up and kept them in line. He always insisted that I never introduce him by his service rank, and it was only by checking elsewhere that I learnt that he had a CGM.

[FormerFlake]

I happened to notice written somewhere when i was in the procces of sorting out ressettlement etc that.......... At the rank of Flt Lt or above you get to keep your rank. I didn't look into it further as I have no intention of using my old rank, but i can confirm it is official and in an AP somewhere.

[Pontius Navigator]

It is not only just a rank thing either.

First, in India I was introduced to a doctor at a hospital - Wg Cdr ....... - so they do it too.

No the other thing is headdress. At the various veterans gatherings the army, Navy and RM all wear their berets and the colours alone tell a tale - white, tan, green, navy, red and that in one Royal Navy assemblage as several had gone from RN to Para or RM to RM Cmmando. Add an airman and you can add RAF blue. Add an RAF officer and what do you get?

RAF Officers cannot parade with ORs and therefore cannot parade in the RAF beret with the proper badge. For that reason the RAFA has a non-service frage cap!

Also an addendum. The president of an association to which I belong was always Captain Lawson. Only when I saw his obituary last month did I discover he had retired as a Commodore but always said he had been over-promoted. Double modesty.

[airborne_artist]

Only when I saw his obituary last month did I discover he had retired as a Commodore but always said he had been over-promoted. Double modesty.

Actually quite correct, as Commodore was not (at the time) a substantive rank - it went with some senior RN captain's jobs, particularly where they had a NATO interaction, as there was no direct RN equiv to a 1*/Brigadier/Air Commodore. On relinquishing the post, you lost the acting rank.

[chevvron]

When I was retired, my letter from Gloucester gave me permission to use the title Flt Lt RAFVR(T) Retd., never done so; if I ever did (unlikely) I would make sure I added the VR(T) bit out of respect for you full timers. That said, I bet some ex VR(T) officers 'forget' to add it. They're probably the ones who also enjoy posing in No 5s if they ever go to a formal dinner! Of course, not all ex Flt Lt (Actings) are given this privilege; we're really only Fg Offs after all and you're only allowed to retain acting rank if you've given recognisably good service.

[Samuel]

It must be a Brit affectation: I've never heard of any instance of a previously held rank being used in New Zealand, and a quick scan of the Wellington phone book of three former Chiefs of Air Staff that I am aware of, and one beknighted Chief of Defence Staff shows them all to be plain old initials and name only. I also know locally a former Major General who became had a significant subsequent career after retirement, and only those very closely associated with him know that!

Personally, it would never occur to me to use "Sqn Ldr RNZAF Retd", because it would not only never occur to me, but it would guarantee some pretty strange responses I imagine.

It's good to be 'in', but when you're gone, you're gone!

[Blacksheep]

The use of ex-military rank can be useful. We have two managers with exactly the same name so, to distinguish between them, we refer to the one who was previously in the air force as "Major *****".
(Our local Air Force uses the army rank structure)

[Pontius Navigator]

Mystic Greg wrote

"You keep them, so instead of writing to you as:
'Group Captain J J Wwyvern OBE DFC RAF'
I might write to you as:
'J J Wwyvern, Esq, OBE DFC'"

In fact using their honourific is writing is as complicated as them using it themselves.

If it concerns letters to the local council, signed off Blimp, Col, Rtd, then they might be safely ignored unless it is a very small parish council (pond).

If it is someone military, or ex-military, writing to them then it is polite to use their honourific as Debrett's uses that form. For instance if a mess sec is writing to local kilingon's about the annual face fill jamboree.

It is a question of social form really.

In what is an air force basing area rank awareness, and snobbery, is rife. We had someone on our parish council who did not use his rank, but was known to be some sort of retired sqn ldr. That rumour had started because he ran an 'organisation' that the locals, only partly clued up, believed would be run by a sqn ldr. Gradually as the truth about the retired warrant officer seeped out . . . Another officer retired as a 'wg cdr' and again got demoted when the truth leaked.

It even happened with more senior officer's wives although one ex whose ex now has 3*s got a job as a shelf stacker in the local supermarket. More of a statement really :)

[Aeronut]

The only people who seem to have a problem with rank are those that don't, or didn't, have any!

[WorkingHard]

Aeronut - I see what you mean but may I suggest that actually it is the use of military ranks in civilian life that causes the perceived problems. As was said earlier in this thread, few people now have any experience or concept of military life and the use of rank outside just leaves one open to ridicule in some circles. I think it is very sad that some ex service personnel need to hang onto the rank to gain some semblence of acceptance or social status in civilian life.

[Wwyvern]

It's not only a Brit thing.

A few years ago I inspected a civilian helicopter operator in the Sub Continent. On looking through the Tech Logs for the Captain's signatures, all the pilots had scored out "Captain" in the pre- and post- flight signature blocks and hand written over them "Sqn Ldr" or Wg Cdr".

[Clockwork Mouse]

It is easy to ridicule ex-officers who sometimes use their rank titles. However, it is officially sanctioned and used to be the norm not so long ago. It is only in the last few decades that it has become contentious. I don't think it is anything to do with snobbery. Probably more to do with pride. Professional pride in ones lifetime achievements, in ones service, in ones unit, in the comrades with whom one served and soldiered.

We carp on about the public not recognising our worth as servicemen, so why be ashamed to acknowledge what we are/were? No one criticises those retired personnel who attend events, reunions etc wearing military symbols such as blazer badges, ties etc. And if a retired doctor, professor, clergyman can still use their identifying title, why not us? Nothing to be ashamed of that you were a professional soldier. If some do tear the arse out of it, that's life.

The public stereotype of a retired colonel or other middle/senior ranking officer is of a blimp. That is because they never knowingly see the real thing, just what appears in Miss Marple, Poirot or what have you on the box. Look at photos of real colonels or blue equivalents in the news: they look like boys. They command a batallion or equivalent in their mid/late 30s and by God they are good at what they do. And they are not a crock when they retire at 55. If Joe Public knew who and what you were, their stereotype might change for the better. So don't be ashamed of using your title on the appropriate occasion.

[Tourist]

Clockwork mouse.
I agree 100%.
How can we expect the respect of civvies if we are not proud of our achievements in the military ourselves.
If you were good enough to be promoted in the military, you should be damn sure that civvies respect you for it.

If only so many complete monkeys weren't promoted nowadays.

[Pontius Navigator]

It does seem to be more of an Army thingy though. Admittedly we had Gp Capt Townsend but then he was active service when he was active and his rank was part of the story.

But besides army horse riders, a captain and a major spring to mind and we also have a retired brigadier too don't we.

[soddim]

Don't see anything wrong with allowing an old codger to remember his/her past glories and to be proud of what he/she achieved. If anybody else belittles it - shame on them.

[cazatou]

Pontius Navigator,

The RAF had Gp Capt Leonard Chesire VC, DSO* DFC* who founded the Cheshire Homes; an organisation which is proud of his links with the RAF.

Moreover; the Sue Ryder Homes are also proud - by extension- of their links with Gp Capt Cheshire through his marriage to their Founder.

[jockbartel]

Should this not have started on 1 April ?:D

Knew a bumptious git who reached his ceiling as an Air Commodore, as when he was made an AVM, his superior officer did not feel he was worthy of further promotion to AM and had obviously been over promoted to AVM.

He was gutted, as his daddy had been an ACM, and sometime CinC of ****** Command, and who was so good at the job that he had his service specially extended so he could CinC the new ****** Command when it was formed, having amalgamated with another Command....

'Boy' missed out on being a real 'Sir' with a gong, or two...

It really put his nose out of joint..

Spending his retirement tending his roses..:D

[Clockwork Mouse]

And your point is....?

[Pontius Navigator]

Clockwork Jockbartel's comment is hardly worthy of a reply.

[OBNO]

The appropriate time to use your military rank is when you are IN the military.

[7gcbc]

you mean like major in Fawlty towers ?

http://www.fawltysite.net/ballard-berkeley.htm

"One of my favourite scenes is the one in which The Major thinks he has met a talking moose head: The moose head is sitting on the reception desk whilst Manuel is tidying up behind the desk and practising his English. Just as The Major wanders in from the bar Manuel proudly announces that he can speak English and “How are you Sir”. The Major turns around just as Manuel bends down out of view, thereby thinking he has encountered a talking Moose!"

http://www.fawltysite.net/Images/major-wearing-tie.jpg

[Pontius Navigator]

gawd, I can hardly remember the Major until you reminded me. How on earth do people both remember the absurd and then have the time and ability to find the reference and the clip?

I know Google is wonderful but it still takes time. On the Vulcan thread I had an idea that an author's name was Antony Gray but didn't want to waste time looking. Someone did!

What service.

And on rank, I tried to stop using mine years ago and only do so when it is necessary for a bit of 'reinforcement' I actually dislike the "Sir" bit even and 1st Nav or boss was far more eglatarian. OTOH we once had a boss who wanted us to call all the airman Ch Tech, SAC etc whereas we knew they rather liked being known by their names - in days pre-name tags.

[Clockwork Mouse]

LFittNI

I think you have by now got a representative answer to your question. Seems to me that on the whole those who are not entitled by regulations to do it resent those who are entitled doing it. And I certainly don't think the practise is becoming more common; quite the reverse. The public are becoming less aware of what retired service personnel are like and can do.

Unfortunately, by mocking those who do, you and the other cynics are perpetuating the civilian stereotype of retired senior officers as incompetent blimps. After 34 years in the military I can safely say that, though I know some four letter men who were promoted above their ceiling of competence, I do not know any blimps from any service. You do yourself (presuming you are ex-military) no favours in perpetuating this image. Be proud of what we in the British military are and were. I am.

[lasernigel]

Read through and it doesn't seem to have been said before,but as I knew it the ruling in the Army was officially only Major and above could be used when retired,as Major is the first ' Staff ' rank.But being only ex REME could be in for a few corrections!:ok:

[SASless]

Soddim,

It is not the remembrance of past glories that is the issue....more like the pompous piece of fecal matter that was a total tosser in the mob....carrying on like he was something else while outside the mob. Thus far...when someone tells me of their "rank"...without being asked....it only goes to identify a real wan.ker.

Somehow I find a Private's service no less noble than that of someone with Flag rank. As it was said one time....victory was achieved by the "guts" behind a bayonet.

If the guy wants to use his former rank...who cares what rank he was....what matters is what kind of soldier was he. I still don't understand why a former British employer would never use my postscripts as they did one of their own....all I rated was an "Esq." despite telling them of my VD with Scar.

[Clockwork Mouse]

Lasernigel

Think you'll find its captain in the Army. And why are you deprecating your having been in the REME? Without your lot none of our expensive kit would work. For God's sake, be PROUD of who and what we are/were! Unless you're a gunner of course!

[Pontius Navigator]

Clockwork Mouse, I agree with LaserNigel's thoughts but Archimedes quoted the authority that Captains were included.

I had thought that RAF Flt Lt were the only ones at that rank who could retain their rank.

Both of us wrong, naturally.

[Clockwork Mouse]

PN

Well, as we experienced old f*rts learned long ago, you can't win 'em all. Never stopped us trying though!
Didn't Archimedes get screwed?

[teeteringhead]

I wonder how many dissenters/criticisers would raise this face-to-face with the likes of "Colonel" Tim Collins or similar.....;)

[Pontius Navigator]

Maybe a thread divert to valid use of military rank on retirement?

Paddy Hine, Tim Collins, Paddy Ashton, Tony Blair:}

[LFittNI]

Clockwork Mouse:-
Far from denigrating the use of the honorific per se, if you read my starting post, you will see that I only criticise those ex-officers who seem to assume that their service rank carries automatic qualities when looking for a job or new career as a civilian.
I do not care what social use the title is put to, but, again, the implicit assumption that the rank carries an automatic degree of competence in a new career seems to be increasing.
The ex-officers who I see to interview are a mix of those at the 12/16 point, or whatever it's called nowadays, or in their 40's, so the phenomenon is not confined to "blimps".
Likewise, it is sometimes easy to spot beforehand. A lot of CV's arrive from ex-service commisioned ranks, and (a rough and ready estimate) about 30% start off with e.g. "CV of Group Captain Smith"......which invites a certain response from me (see first post again;) ) This percentage seems to be increasing, which was the point of this thread.

[Pontius Navigator]

LFittNI,

I am glad you moved the thread back to rank.

We had a job application from a WO of a particular trade. His credentials were no doubt first rate and would have got him many plum jobs through PMA.

While the manager, to whom he applied for a job, knew roughly what a warrant officer was - ask any dark blue and they will probably give you the same opinion of RAF WO - and he knew what MT stood for, the man was already two strikes down.

The CV, OTOH, was pure job suicide. His qualifications were all numbers prefixed by "F" and we did not have the decode. What it did not tell us was whether he could operate a tractor, JCB, or service a tank. Nor did he appear to have civilian licences to operate power tools.

Simple skills that he no doubt mastered in the RAF but "WO q this and that" was just as damming as I was "OC Eng Wg, of course I can run your parts shop."

True story:

Ex-RN Lt Cdr starts a Land Rover refurbishment company. Needs a storeman and employs an army Lieutenant. In no time army Lt is making a profit selling on recovered stores surplus to core. Good thing ex-military officers. Needs an office manager - employed a retired flt lt.

Flt Lt had an office. Door always open. People could come and see him any time.

Office manager did not fit parts to Land Rovers, did not recover parts to stores nor pack parts for despatch, did not last long.

The moral? The rank does tell you something if you know the decode and can both warn you off or attract you if you know that that individual should have the attributes you need.

[Pontius Navigator]

LFittNI,

As I re-read your post <<This percentage seems to be increasing, which was the point of this thread.>> something occurred to me. The services outsourced retirement training to Right Associates. If they still have the contract you are probably getting a RA Trained applicant who is simply trotting out the party line.

Next time, ask one why he thinks the rank was relevant. If you can, ask one whom you are actually going to employ, just to avoid an accusation of bias.

[LFittNI]

Pontius:-
I am greatly obliged to you for this excellent information re. the outsourcing of resettlement training---I had absolutely no idea this was going on! Indeed, perhaps that is the reason for the phenomenon this thread is about. Many thanks.
PS--from your title, I assume that you too are (were) familiar with the marvellous GPI Mk.4, perhaps not the glorious and quite wondrous insides, but at least its use. Ahhhh, brings back memories and smells of Hastings, Britannia, Shack.etc. Not the horrid and soulless Mk.6, naturally!

[philrigger]

LFittNI,
We had a job application from a WO of a particular trade. His credentials were no doubt first rate and would have got him many plum jobs through PMA.
While the manager, to whom he applied for a job, knew roughly what a warrant officer was ....

True stories:

Aircraft Technician SNCO at job interview: I was a Chief technician ..................

Some months later it turns out that the interviewer thought he was THE chief technician (OC Eng Wg) !

Another interview at an engineering firm: Interviewer, with a serious tone of voice. So, apart from marching men about all day, what else can you do?

[soddim]

SASless,

I still don't understand why a former British employer would never use my postscripts as they did one of their own....all I rated was an "Esq." despite telling them of my VD with Scar.

Probably because he was British - we just don't show off here about our past indiscretions.

Back to the point of the thread - rank used to be an achievement, not something given for collecting cornflake packet tops. Promotion used to be on merit, not for time served. There used to be a selection process, not a case of filling the quota from the few left serving. Good guys used to stay in, only the dross left early.

Do I make my point?

[Clockwork Mouse]

Actually, no. What is it?

[Speedpig]

Back to the point of the thread - rank used to be an achievement, not something given for collecting cornflake packet tops. Promotion used to be on merit, not for time served. There used to be a selection process, not a case of filling the quota from the few left serving. Good guys used to stay in, only the dross left early.

Do I make my point?

No, go back far enough and rank used to bought. If you were rich you could be an officer.... didn't matter whether you could do it or not.
Am I right in thinking that the right to use rank outside the forces goes back to the fact that you bought, so you can keep it?
Father worked for a Lt Col Rtd who insisted on being addressed as Colonel xxxxxx. This man was a pompous twit and I was a bit of a rebel... not once, ever, did I call him Colonel but was always tempted to call him "Lt Col Rtd"
Father was a very proud man and it sickened me to see him almost salute this idiot. Father was a very young Airman at the end of WWII so I guess the rank thing was instilled then.

[soddim]

Guess I was lucky. Did my bit between the buying and the automatic promotion. Worked for stars and got to be a glimmer. Proud, not overly. Satisfied, yes. Wear what humble rank I got with pride - not on my sleeve or after my name but in my heart - where it counts. Sod the rest who sit and snipe.

soddim

[Kim Il Jong]

Personally, when I leave the mob, I'll carry on working as a 'Mr'.

When I'm retired I'll revert to rank, That way I'll pull all the birds in the retirement home by making sure all the care assistants refer to me as Pilot Officer Il Jong.

:E

Each to his own: what you reap is what you sow. Err or is that sew?

[teeteringhead]

That way I'll pull all the birds in the retirement home

Reminds me of the tale of the inevitable "Major" in such a home, whose new lease of life was assisted by little blue pills. So he put a proposition to a fellow inmate, a retired WAAF.

"For £5," he said, "I'll give you a quickie right here in your rocking chair, for £10 it's a romantic dinner and then into the back of my shooting brake for some fun, but for £20 the dinner will be followed by the excitement of all night in my room!"

The retired WAAF blushed, but nevertheless reached for her purse and produced two £10 notes.

"Aha," said the Major, "I see you're going for the all-night option."

"No" she said, smiling sweetly, "I want it four times in the rocking chair!!"..;)

[7gcbc]

teeteringhead, :p :p :p

classic, just about woke the kids laughing at that...... :uhoh:

[lasernigel]

And why are you deprecating your having been in the REME? Without your lot none of our expensive kit would work. For God's sake, be PROUD of who and what we are/were! Unless you're a gunner of course!

Clockwork mouse Just in banter,of course I'm proud I'm ex Army/REME.
Was not a gunner was a (official title) C.E.T. (Eccy) multi qualified not like the new breed who split the trade up.
We did have a housing officer when I was at S.E.E. Arborfield who insisted of keeping his Captains rank as a title.But he was not the norm.:ok:

[Clockwork Mouse]

Was a CET what we called a Greenie? Wiggly amps etc?

[haltonapp]

My brother, who is a civil servant, and works in the MOD is of the opinion that most officers and civil servants retire at their level of incompetency, so it might be best if your retired rank was kept quiet!

[edmond64]

After serving 22yrs in the ranks and now running a successfull business I would certainly suggest that all ex-officers keep their rank quiet. As an ex-forces employer it would only go against his/her application.Unfortunatly out in the real world high spirits and managerial incompetence does'nt cut it.

[Skytrucker]

Don't suppose you get many applications from your superiors asking if they can help you clean windows though Edmond!:mad:

[WorkingHard]

Now now Skytrucker that is just the sort of facile comment that suggests you are commissioned and probably quite incorrectly. You simply lend weight to the above arguments.

[flower]

I'm an ex lowly Army Subaltern, knew my place when I was in the Army , My NCO's were in charge :ooh: I'm not entitled to neither would I wish to be addressed as Lieut.

My father retired as a Colonel, the only time he uses his rank is at Military functions other wise he is known as Mike or Mr .......

My grandfather retired as a Major he for the rest of his life was referred to as Major Lewis.

As with many careers now it is more about the career rather than the status I am sure the use of ranks once retired will die out naturally.
BTW although Debretts may say Captain ands above it most definitely was Majors and above only who used their ranks upon retirement.
My pet hate though having been brought up within the armed forces were Wives thinking their husbands ranks were somehow theirs.

I now have a good career with a good salary, one of my dearest friends who left the service as a NCO earns at least double what i do in a superb career, we take a lot with us when we leave the armed services one thing however we should leave behind is the ranking structure.

[Skytrucker]

WH, a brilliant piece of deduction on your part. I no longer serve but am content to use my rank in communication with my old Squadrons association in common with every other member. It was a facile comment but I recruit and work with some outstanding chaps and chappesses who are not afraid to admit to once being an officer / NCO and I dont hold the fact that someone has never held a commission ( or was never going to be able to) against them and never would. We get along fine in a complex organisation and we all muck in and get our hands dirty.

[WorkingHard]

Flower - dont necessarily blame the wives, remember they were known as wife of /rank/name.
Skytrucker - glad to hear your story but it may not be as common as you think. many, as shown above, believe their service rank ENTITLES them to respect and a position in civilian life. They should be educated about this BEFORE they retire.

[modtinbasher]

I'm soon to be an ex-military officer and can't wait to be plain old 'Mr'! I think it's pretentious in the extreme to be addressed by one's former military rank. Generally speaking, it appears that those who hang on to their former life have a vastly over-inflated opinion of their importance in the big scheme of things. Exactly!!! And let us face it, if unless we are really ex-job, and it really fits, and the recipient really appreciates it, it matters not a toss! If we are not ex-job, it means nothing else. Full stop. Unless the person being ""educated"" is also ex-job, and then of course, if the 'educator' has been out for more than 12 months, he's out of date anyway. One of my close neighbours, ex RAF WO, still talks about "life on the autobahn, my shrank is superb, and when I was in .....?" (He's been a civvie for 15 years at least). It really is hard in the real world, I'm sure!!!

[edmond64]

Just the reaction I thought I would get, this just demonstrates that some people are just conditioned for life.I also admire the assumption that the lower ranks will are not capable to do anything more worth while than manual labour. Well skytruck if I was a window cleaner I would invite you here for a days work and see if you were capable of getting your hands dirty (if you even know the meaning of the word)

[Skytrucker]

Thankfully, unlike you, I don't.

[Samuel]

There are some home-truths here!

Rank is, indeed, an achievement, but having had two careers, one military and one private, let me confirm what has been alluded to, that there is a very strong opinion in the private sector that the very best the armed services produce leave at the Sqn Ldr level! Just because that promotion pyramid starts to get very narrow at the top end doesn't, necessarily, mean the best people gain the higher rank.It is possible to gain senior rank without ever having made a decision, [and therefore never got one wrong!]. Management in the service is relatively easy because you are dealing with people who, by and large, know the rules and what is expected of them. Outside of the service, that is not always true; doesn't give automatic respect, and you had better learn that fact very quickly. Personally, one of the first things you should drop is any allusion whatsoever to previous rank!

I recently arranged an interview for an ex-RAF Officer and visitor to NZ [and would-be immigrant] with a very successful owner of a company which has had huge success in placing IT specialists.He was told, very directly, that he was employable immediately for his skills and ability, but that he should forget he was ever in the Services!

[edmond64]

Well skytrucker make your mind up, either you get your hands dirty as you stated in your first post or you don't(as in your last!). Your attributes are really beginning to shine now. As I was taught respect is not a rank given right you have to earn it. I bet all you subordinates loved to respect you!!!!But that doesn't matter in the land that time forgot (the officers mess!!)because you could always resort to burning the odd piano or painting the grass orange (all in high spirits eh:) ).But alas there was always a respectful airman to clean it up for you eh!!

[soddim]

Some fascinating insights here into the world of pride and prejudice.

Do those who recruit people really not appreciate the thorough and expensive training that the services have given their job candidate?

Do ex-military job candidates posess high standards of personal discipline?

Does a service background with rank indicate a history of trustworthyness and reliability?

If the answer to any of those questions is 'No' then I guess the job candidates had better forget their service achievements.

[WorkingHard]

Soddim - very good questions and I can only speak for my attitudes.
Firstly when recruiting I would recognise the achievments backed by qualifications known and accepted by industry. For example a pilot from the RAF will obviously be a very good operator of aircraft but may not make a good CAT pilot without further training. A Secretarial Branch officer may or may not be a good administrator, it would depend on his qualifications etc. In reality one may have to prove one's self all over again and without the right attitude it may never happen.

[soddim]

WorkingHard,

I can see the difficulties of reading across the obvious qualities of the ex-service candidates but, in my experience, one of the strengths of service training is that it is not job-specific. The forces (thanks to the taxpayer) can afford to give a thorough in-depth training that few commercial companies can afford.

I certainly agree that the job candidate has to be ready to adapt to the new task and environment but within the services that frequently happens anyway - hence the need for the in-depth training.

I suspect the few ex-service personnel who leave thinking they know it all have muddied the water somewhat.

[Crowe]

I'm pleased to observe that the drunk fellow in the corner is usually "the Major" but never "the Squadron Leader"


Clearly not been to the Adelphi in Leeds where "the Wing Commander" was a regular fixture...:E

[Samuel]

"Do those who recruit people really not appreciate the thorough and expensive training that the services have given their job candidate"?

Actually Soddim, No!

They might accept that you've been where you have, but don't particularly appreciate what that means in term of personal ability. You are quite correct on all those other attributes of being expected to do whatever job you're given and usually get on with it it, but a prospective employer doesn't always appreciate that so you have to show it once you've been hired.

When I first went into the private sector, I found my problem-solving skills were far in advance of anyone else around the table, and would often leave meetings to resolve an issue while it was still under discussion! Most air force officers can think outside the square! It must also be remembered that, while you may come across the occasional rat in the service, they are mere pussycats compared to the civilian version!

[jindabyne]

Sam 'n soddim,

I guess we're singing from a similar hymn sheet. My own experience working with a large civilian organisation that has an inextricable link with the military was that ability had to be demonstrated in order to gain credibility. Whilst there was a certain respect for those IN uniform, there was invariably a level suspicion or resentment over the majority of new and generally eager employees that had elected to join the business later in life, armed with an Armed Services pension. There were, of course, exceptions at both ends of the scale: some recognisably talented Service personnel were rightly head-hunted, others of the pompous and dim variety made life more awkward for the majority.

And Sam is right - civilian rats are both more abundant and of an order far, far higher than anything I ever came across in the RAF. More usually, they were found in the more senior positions.

[Flatus Veteranus]

After serving 22yrs in the ranks and now running a successfull business I would certainly suggest that all ex-officers keep their rank quiet. As an ex-forces employer it would only go against his/her application.Unfortunatly out in the real world high spirits and managerial incompetence does'nt cut it.
You must be joking! How many civilian organisations, commercial or government, have you dealt with as a customer or client that left you impressed with their efficiency, courtesy, punctuality and cost effectiveness? It seems that they larger they are, the more they are incompetent. Even the government know that to get anything done reliably and on time thay have to send for the military.

[Tourist]

Edmond Edmond,
You never managed to shine in the forces did you, and have taken your bitterness to the civvy world where it is easier to get by with bumbling incompetence.
I do however doubt the claim that your business is window cleaning.
You would doubtless cut yourself.
I suspect the cry of "do you want fries with that?" rings in your ears as you sit in your "managerial" position.

[WorkingHard]

Now dont get personal guys this is not JB and was quite enlightening up to now.

[Samuel]

Flatus is correct in his observations:efficiency, or the lack of it, can be a major frustration to someone who has spent a career in a structured organisation.

Your average private concern, with some notable execeptions, and Government Departments, rarely achieve the level of expectancy you may want, or be used to, and fixing the problem will require genuine ability to manage and lead without the backing of rank! As in the service however, there are always senior people who delegate all authority,to avoid blame, but take all the credit when it arrives.

[Pontius Navigator]

I mentioned before the outsourcing of resettlement training. I had the benefit on several pre-outsourced courses and one of the new ones.

Of the latter two things stuck in my mind. One was the relative indifference of the trainer to my CV. The other was the glob of spittle that he swung from side to side on his lip, never actually wiping it, spitting it or swallowing it.

Of the former two trainers stick in my mind. One was now divorced, rode a motor bike and enjoyed life to the full. Two items of advice stuck - in your CV NEVER use the word responsible. We are all responsible for something but are we effective in discharging that responsibility. Say what you did not what you should have. The other was never use the EYE word. Saves unnecessary words.

The other was a retired Chief Inspector, one Garrard Murray, aside for the huge range of anecdotes, bull**** etc most of which I remember 10 years later were two pearls. If asked never say you are FREE. You are never free (you will charge - plus expenses) always say you are available or not as the case may be. The other is to get a diary, agree with your other half on value time, like half-term etc, and then cross out all these days and never change your mind.

[edmond64]

You must be joking! How many civilian organisations, commercial or government, have you dealt with as a customer or client that left you impressed with their efficiency, courtesy, punctuality and cost effectiveness? It seems that they larger they are, the more they are incompetent. Even the government know that to get anything done reliably and on time thay have to send for the military.
I suppose the Nimrod, merlin and typhoon are good examples of military efficiency!

You never managed to shine in the forces did you, and have taken your bitterness to the civvy world where it is easier to get by with bumbling incompetence.
I do however doubt the claim that your business is window cleaning.
You would doubtless cut yourself.
I suspect the cry of "do you want fries with that?" rings in your ears as you sit in your "managerial" position.

Here's another one from the Officers mess bar! If you must know I reached as far as I could in my trade and have a very nice pension, guess what I didn't need to lick anybodies a:mad: either.I was promoted for my ability not for how many pints I could drink in the bar or how pally me and my wife were with the CO. As for bitterness I have none, I enjoyed my time in and life is too short for bitterness. I think this thread has gone a long way to prove exactly what it was meant to.I do not tar all officers with the same brush as I have met many who I respect and trust but those who have contributed to this with a pompous belittling attitude have only helped me prove my point. As for me whether I clean windows, cook fries or run the Virgin empire I am happy in the fact that I have my own decisions to make and live by without passing my mistakes to others.

Ps on a more serious note I would like to wish all those that have gone or are about to go to the new sand pit detachment good luck and a safe return.

[Re-Heat]

On a similar note, I know of a Baron, whom introduced himself to me by using his first name, whose business card does not mention his title and whose air is wholly professional and unpretentious.

Only later did I discover his full name.

Perhaps the point is rather - does one feel the need to in their line of work? If your civilian job is a consultant with BAe Systems, the use of the title may well be appropriate. If your job is senior management of a FTSE, you would probably look a prat.

Where perhaps it appears out of place considering the civilian profession of that person might be indicative of that person's character...?

I don't express judgement, however I don't think that I will be introducing myself at the next UAS reunion as Mr X ACA in order to shove it in anyone's face that I am a chartered accountant; whatever my business card says (it isn't on there either).


Not sure what you mean by efficiency of government services - I would suggest that if you think they are, then you have never seen the real world. Shall I start with the antiquated expenses systems you chaps in service use, duplication of HR functions, lack of strategic planning of the structure of the "company" (read service)...

[charliegolf]

I always derived huge enjoyment from (nearly) all those service men and women who got up in front of a group and kicked off with...

"My name in Sqn Ldr Bloggs...."

It allowed me to indulge my own childish humour by quietly rehearsing the same response: "Blimey, what a fcuking stupid Christian (no PC then) name! What was his mammy thinking?"

Perhaps it was a self-indoctrination thing on some people's part?

CG

Tourist: British service personnel on ops are the best on the planet. That doesn't mean that they don't spend peacetime in a 'bumbling incompetent' environment. Have a look inside too.

[Pontius Navigator]

CharlieGolf, my name is Bloggs. That is who I am. If I am in uniform I credit most of the audience with adequate vision. If in civvies I am usually asked by the host and it is up to them whether they so announce it.

Sometimes it can be cringingly embarassing :)

[Samuel]

I doubt the Officers Mess bar served the function you seem to attach to it Edmond. For sure there were 'free exchange of opinions', and many a potential problem has been resolved over a beer without resort to officialdom, but if you imagine the topic of conversation was non-stop discussion of Cpl Bloggs you're quite wrong.

The aircraft you mention are not, in themselves, examples of military inefficiency, unless you are suggesting they are operated inefficiently. I think you're confusing operation with procurement, and anyone who has ever had any experience of the latter will tell you that it, the procurement system, is inefficient.It's controlled by bean-counters, that's why!:{ Once in the hands of the operators, they can make it work.

This, however, is diverting from the topic. A lot of service management is very good, within the structured organisation, but believe me, a lot of people are not the hot-shot managers they think they are when they get out into the real world. There, you have to fight your own corner!

My advice would be to take everything you can from your service experience, a lot of it cannot be gained in any other organisation, but leave out that which is irrelevant, and that includes your previous rank.

[edmond64]

Sorry, I do agree that the bean counters do have a devastating effect on the projects I mentioned. I barked up the wrong tree on that one:ugh: But maybe I should change tack and mention the AOC who had a C130 transport his private car to an airbase in Norfolk so that he could have a nice motoring holiday there!(I'm sure SAC Smith could have done the same with his Ford Orion!) Or the Group Captain who received good press for spending tax payers money on a total overhaul of his new quarters in Gloustershire because a lower ranking officer had previously lived there(and believe me it was a grand house before the change)

[soddim]

I guess this thread has now reached the point where some have concluded that life is like living in a monkey tree.

When they look down they see monkeys and when they look up they see a**holes.

[WorkingHard]

edmonds64 - "total overhaul of his new quarters" - similar waste has occuured with RAF Benevolent Funds one hears (for commissioned ranks only of course) although the story is from many years ago, it could not happen now, could it?

[jockbartel]

Not to mention the air chief marshal who allowed his wife to spend a fortune on new curtains. Taxpayers fortune, naturally.

[Samuel]

I expect someone with more detailed knowledge will respond to the 'commissioned ranks only' comment; which is, of course, totally uninformed utter bollocks!

It has also killed a useful thread.

[Samuel]

Mind you, in view of all the above, the CEO of Air New Zealand is a former Flt Lt Engineer Officer, RNZAF, not that a lot of people know it!

[WorkingHard]

Samuel - are you speaking purely for NZ with your "totally uninformed utter bollocks"?

[Samuel]

Actually, no, I was referring to you and your comment, but as you appear to be particularly obtuse and with a chip on both shoulders, I had to spell it out for you.:rolleyes:

[WorkingHard]

Samuel - far from having any chips I appreciate how well I did from HM Services. What I find unacceptable is the situation where funds are being used for other than that for which people contributed. It is personal attacks such as yours that will kill a thread, and quite unnecessary. So nothing further from me lest I am classed as being down at your level.

[SASless]

Soddim,

Now there's a proposition I can understand...having been a second tier monkey....your statement confirms my view of things looking up from that perspective of being one step up from the bottom.

[Flatus Veteranus]

I suppose the Nimrod, merlin and typhoon are good examples of military efficiency!

edmond64

I believe that the RAF lost control of its own aircraft procurement to Lord Beaverbrook's Ministry of Aircraft Production in 1940. Since then it has been a downhill slide through all the succeeding organisational disasters. Among the last aircraft built to specs written by the RAF were the Spitfire and Hurricane. Not perfect (they lacked range) but they did their job.

An example of "military efficiency" that I can quote from personal experience was Op Corporate (FI campaign). This was a complex operation on quite a large scale which was planned and executed within a few weeks with assets which had been provided for very different purposes. The "planning" (there was no Plan in the conventional sense because the FCO had declared that there was no sig ificant threat!) was done by middle-ranking officers in the MOD and the service headquarters working day and night for days and weeks. I was working with the Army in Whitehall at the time and my colleague (a Major) brought his field kit in and slept in the office when he could snatch a bit of zzzz for ten days. Of course the civilian staff insisted on working normal hours, so a parallel military team of clerks, signals specialists and ops officers were brought in from various training establishments and put on a 24 our watch system. The civilians were invited peremptorily to get lost. We eventually managed to get the canteen to stay open until about 2200, but the bar on the river steamer opposite Main Building did a roaring trade and was instantly christened the Belgrano. She was largely largely manned (or girled) by Aussies and Kiwis; if the Argies had managed to plant someone behind the bar, all would have been revealed to them! I believe the Sappers would have had Wembley finished years ago.

[Samuel]

"What I find unacceptable is the situation where funds are being used for other than that for which people contributed".

Which has what, precisely, to do with the topic :"Use of ex-service rank titles"?

[soddim]

What Flatus Veteranus posted should remind the doubters what a 'can-do' lot the services are. I too had direct experience during Op Corporate of how efficiently and quickly the service could get things done once the purse strings were open and the normal b*lls**t by-passed.

Look further at Gulf War 1 and try to understand the massive logistics achievements, not only ours but the Americans too. I concur with the Wembley Stadium statement. I once had the pleasure of assistance by the RE with a particularly tricky bit of temporary construction in a very tricky part of the World and they starred.

I have yet to see any civilian company or its' employees exhibit such qualities and that includes companies I have worked for staffed by mainly ex-military personnel. Why, because the management stifles their innate abilities - just like many senior officers do in peacetime.

[ShyTorque]

What about ex-services people who wear medal ribbons on their civilian jacket?

[Pontius Navigator]

Shy Torque, is that a troll? Under what circumstances are you refering?

Properly speaking, at a black tie do, one should not wear ones medals with a DJ. It is however correct to wear them with tails.

Mind you, on a cruise last year, black tie, there were at least two groups, say 6 men, wearing their CDM and bar.

And if you are refering to wearing medals at commemoration services you will note that it is even a uniform do. Dress blazer and grey flannels, appropriate beret to service and skills. Only the RAF is out of step there insisting that RAF Officers do not parage with OR - or rather they do not wear the RAF Officer's beret or other officer's headgear. The RAF contingent is supposed to wear the RAFA forage cap.

[ShyTorque]

No, not a troll, although I have to admit I'm not sure what you mean by that term.

I have noticed that some leave the armed forces and subsequently wear military medal ribbons on a civilian uniform jacket.

[Pontius Navigator]

Shy Torque - troll - deliberately setting out to provoke a response.

Wearing medals on civil 'livery' used to be the norm. The Corps of Commissionares even wear rank - bit like Beefeaters and Chelsea Pensioners.

A chauffeur is another although you rarely see that nowadays.

Police and fire service have medals and ex-servicemen wear theirs in those circumstances and that is uniform.

In the merchant navy they wear theirs. The EPO on the P&O cruise ships I have been on both had chest fulls. One had been on Resource and the other on a T42 in FI.

[MrBernoulli]

British Airways uniform regs allow the wearing of medal ribbons on the jacket, with management approval, of course. Not that I have seen anybody do so. Probably draw a lot of fire and ridicule.

[jindabyne]

PN

Since leaving many years ago, I've worn my little ones on DJ and blazer (good grief) at 'appropriate' occasions - and will always do so. If anyone were pompous enough to challenge me on the day, the response would be brief!

[Thomas coupling]

The RN is less than 45000, There are more police than that in the MET.
RAF: 41000 (by 2008). All three services are less than HALF THE NUMBER OF STAFF WORKING FOR TESCO.

Being a 'manager' in any of the forces no longer carries with it that "special something" in the public eye. It pales into insignifigance in this world of high commerce and technological innovation. There are thousands working for microsoft (for example) who make every bit as much of a contribution as these so called managers in the mil. They don't need to go round reminding everyone else of who they were and what they did in history world?
If you believe you need to advertise what you did in the past to all and sundry - ask your kids what they think.
Let go and join the rest of the world as it glides by.

Lieutenant Commander Rn, Ret'd, CFS, RAeS and bra :E

[soddim]

Having experienced both civilian and military employment I can testify that the term 'manager' means something quite different in each. A typical manager in many civilian companies has little to manage but him/herself and, maybe, an office with a contract cleaner. A manager in HM Forces is responsible not just for the work functions of at least several personnel but also their welfare, career progression and, in conflict, their lives.

If we get to the level of senior management comparison we see in the services lots of risk but only standard reward - in industry a fat cat salary accompanies risk and a bonus scheme usually kicks in if the company achieves normally mundane performance.

I guess we are really discussing the difference between service and self-service.

[Flatus Veteranus]

I gave up using my rank when the IRA were active and eventually managed to discourage people (including my bank) from sending me letters with my rank in the address. Nowadays I only climb into my pinstripe and polish up my gongs (2) once a year - for the village Rembrance Sunday service. A dwindling number of others (some with rows of gongs) do the same. I believe we owe it to the memory of those whose names are read out to put on the best possible show.

[bushbolox]

Reminds me of an old nemessis of mine in deepest darkest. He was a Colonel (national airforce) retd. He used to insist that he be introduced on the pa as Colonel Captain. He Was a subordinate on my fleet. When i signed an acn specifically to address his bullish behaviour toward cabin crew , I did so as LCPL retd. That got him really mad. However it wasnt until he signed one of his own memos RETD and someone put in brackets RETARDED, that the sh1t hit the fan. Nearly cost a few vanillas their work permits, but worth it. What a kn0b.

Once also flew my old troopy on a flight. He spent the whole flight talking to the f/o about staff college. I read a book.Okay ya, super.

It was the army's loss not mine.
Ps would have made sergeant but got busted three times.
Bottom line its not the rank its the quality of person that counts. The Mil is an enviroment where obedience is contracted not voluntary, so the managers have no real world yardstick of their abiilities until leaving. And so it goes....