Serious Question for the techies

[pvr not dwr]

I'm curious if anybody has time for the "correct way" anymore. In my world its no longer cutting corners in the MP but rather the whole MP :(

[ZH875]

If this is the case, then it must be passed up the food chain. There is no excuse for cutting corners. If the aircraft misses its slot, then so be it, take the flak and then have your say.

Remember, Lives are at risk if you do shoddy unacceptable work, and you would be held responsible as you signed the Work Order.

[Almost_done]

Pvr not dwr, if you are being forced down this line, STOP. See the management, if they are the ones forcing the issue then go up a level of the Chain, don't stop till you reach 'Harry' if you have to until you meet someone with a backbone. You have the AP's to back you on this and I am sure your Aircrew would be P1ssed if they jumped into a Cab/Jet with maintaince issues unresovled or ' that will be okay' attitude by your bosses.

I guess you are at a Station that has been LEAN'd?

I am sure ZH was not having a personal attack and accusing you of shoddy work, but he is correct that our sig's do carry the weight of peoples lives, not just in the air but those on the ground too!!!

If you want a hand PM me now, I'll help, I will not have any of my guys doing this, I have been taken to task before for saying 'NO', to Aircrew, Eng manangement to generate a Cab in an unsafe way before so it's not a biggie, I am happy to help you to stop this dangerous attitude.

[light_my_spey]

Guess we all strive to do it the `correct way` but yes, I`ve been in the position when the odd corner has been cut to meet the requirement, more disturbingly is when some management are prepared to put on the pressure/turn a blind eye to suit, and then go full speed to ream you out when it all goes wrong. Remember kids - just say NO!!!:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Do aircrew still 'carry snags'? By that I do not mean proper red inks but where they are flying the same jet for a number of days an dknow its foibles? They know it can do 'this' or not do 'that' and know they can get the mission done without rectification.

OTOH when handing 'their' jet on to an unknown crew with an unknown tasking they will then drop all the snags into the F700.

One problem with that is that 'easy' snags that could have been fixed days earlier become 'many' snags later on.

[ZH875]

I am sure ZH was not having a personal attack and accusing you of shoddy workThat is quite correct, Just highlighting the significance of signatures.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Pontius Navigator
I couldn't possibly answer that question. (Yes)
.
Off at a tangent briefly -
AT Fleet, Albert especially, often spend longer on the ground on their nightstops (14 hours minimum) than they do back at home base before their next trip.
.
Wouldn't it be a great idea to have trade coverage and spares in, for example, Gander & Cyprus. Then we could get some of those snags fixed. We could call it 1 Gp MSS maybe.
.
Nope. Just checked. Still got a hole in my arse.

[Safety_Helmut]

pvr not dwr

I have been put in this position in the past, I think most of us have. It is an invidious position that you should not be put in. I was fortunate, in that when I objected, i had the respect and the ear of others more senior.

I would offer the suggestion of going down the route of confidential reporting, perhaps put it in such terms that the unit/sqn/stn becomes obvious.

S_H

[Kitbag]

pvr not dwr, ZH875 and almost done are absolutely right on this one, the problem a lot of guys experience is in getting the Eng management behind them. In my experience there are fleets that DO put undue pressure on the maintenance teams to achieve numbers on the line. For the SEngOs this is difficult, they are judged on airframes on the line. Fortunately for me I was lucky enough to move to a fleet which not only saw the light but which rigourously enforced it. It is easy to fall into the 'It'll do a trip' thought process. The books are written for a reason, the days of blame are here to stay. If it ain't fixed IAW AP blah, it don't fly, no argument. Or you might offer an amendment to the procedure through the normal channels if your 'shortcuts' achieve the same thing at less cost. The bosses WILL queue up to shaft you if you can't prove it was done IAW the book. Anybody disagree? :ok:

[TrickyTree]

Kitbag's absolutely right, the "no-blame culture", which made a brief almost ghostly appearance, has definitely gone down the tubes in my experience.
On my last squadron I was often accused by both my shift sergeant and the rectification controller of being obstructive. I wasn't. I just happen to feel a moral obligation to adhere to only the very highest engineering and personal standards and if that means crews missing training sorties, well, I'm sorry, but I am not paid enough to see an aeroplane that I have maintained launch and then be sitting there in the crewroom throughout the sortie length thinking "Oh God, please let them come home". When the crew walks for my jet I am always confident that while it may be an hour or even a day late, by God, that aeroplane is as safe to fly as I can possibly make it.

[Tigs2]

Kitbag, Trickytree and all the the rest of you muckers out there
Bless you for the good contentious work you all do out there, and never let any of our bitching and moaning get in the way of it. Our lives depend on you, and if we bitch and moan who's the arse.?? ohh! we are!

[Incipient Sinner]

The responsibility for engineering safe aircraft goes all the way up the line, everyone must do their own job to the best of their ability. Technician, supervisor, maintenance/shift controller, JEngO, SEngO, OC Eng, Line aircrew and Sqn Boss must all think flight safety when it comes to getting it right and there are plenty of opportunities to be the 'link' in the safety chain.
All down the line there is the opportunity to take the pressure rather than pass it on. The Sqn Boss who tells Command "No", we can't make that tasking in that timeframe. The SEngO who is trusted by the Boss and the JEngO who's job it is to deflect the pressure from the workforce.
As JEngO I've had a few memorable chats with senior aircrew over the Ops desk, and I'm proud to say that the majority of the time I do deflect it. Most people apologise later when they're less stressed themselves.
Quite right that you should never be worried about what you've put your signature to, hoping the aircraft makes it home. Aircrew can trust the techies to red/green aircraft that are safe to fly and if they won't let it fly should thank them for looking after their welfare. Techies should be able to trust their management to make the balance-of-risk judgements and not carry that weight themselves. The balance depends on the operational requirements of the day (yes, it is different when you're the SAR cover in theatre and when you're training back home).
One last thing, the Blame Culture. It's easily arguable that you can't have flight safety within a blame culture (doesn't need explaining) and there have been a few occasions where I've seen this produce positive (safe) results. Once you've declared that amnesty you can't go on a witch hunt and when you break your word once then you'll never recover; it's a one shot trust thing.
Nuff said.

[jobsworth]

I think the problem is that it is not seen from the lower ends of the triangle. The people doing the real hands on engineering work are the JT’s and Cpl’s. Sgt’s are there to check the work is done correctly and sign off accordingly. However only the JT and Cpl will know if the job is being done correctly.

From my own experience I found that the pressure would come from the sergeant who in turn got pressure from the chief, who got pressure from the flight sergeant, this in turn would bring pressure from the Jengo who got a roasting off the Sengo.

If the Sengo was of the type to pander to the aircrew’s demands for more serviceable aircraft, then the pressure would only intensify. Obviously we are aware the aircrew are under pressure to get flying and training completed for yet another stint in the sand.

The fact is, these chaps and ladies are not as well paid, are equally dragged into various commitments. They are coupled with the same retention problems and still have to fight for promotion. The extra pressure will cause corners to be cut and the management has to be able to predict these situations rather than react to them. That is the management should organise work loading correctly, not tear a strip off a person when they have to explain that an aircraft is not in a serviceable condition. The engineers should be allowed to carry on with what they are employed to do, not deal with management issues that should be dealt with by management. They should be safe in the knowledge that they are being backed all the way by people who have and install integrity into their workforce. You have to look after the people at the bottom of the pile after all they provide the foundations.

[insty66]

jobsworth.
If thats the case your SNCO's should hang their heads in shame. I always saw it as my job to protect my tradesmen from unrealistic demands but not testing ones.

I, like many others know shortcuts are encouraged at times but whenever you sign for work it's not the shortcut you sign for. NEVER forget that and you'll take less shortcuts.

I've had a couple of bosses who were willing to kiss off the great god CFT so long as their crews got high quality sorties with aircraft capable of doing the job for the crews, this made a big difference as we never had to Lim just to get some hours in.

We must ensure though, that when we say we can't, we can explain why and our reasons are valid and not some half assed excuse as we didn't try hard enough. Hopefully then we will get proper support from those above and we'll all stay safe.

[jobsworth]

I agree, as I said that is what I saw from first hand experience. I will give credit to the SNCO's that did stand up and protect the work force from un realistic demands, however its the few that did stand up that never seemed to get anywhere with their careers. I for one was frowned upon because I would say no when the management demanded something that I was not happy to sign off. Another point to note is that I was always eager for a challenge and relished working hard and to the time constraints set to put an A/C on the serviceable board. The challenge was set and I felt proud that I had achieved the target in a quick and safe manner.

Another point to mention is that I see the same management principals being used on this side of the fence; I am however at the advantage that my career took a steep angle skyward as they like ambitious people who are prepared to say what needs to be said to the right people. The Chief Executive of the board of a UK infrastructure organisation will testify to that.:E

[ARINC]

It's disheartening to read about the pressures that are coming to bear on the blokes. I can never remember during my time in the 80's ever having to sacrifice Flight Safety for anything. We would always joke about S**t flowing downhill, but the demand to generate sorties never interfered with getting the job done properly. Falklands prep, operating in the field, inner German border recce flights Tacevals, you name it, flight safety was sacrosanct. If you needed more time or the snag wasn't straightforward then you got more blokes and or time.

Aircrew, bless em, just had to be happy with what we gave them.

[pvr not dwr]

Thanks for the responses. However I think until lean reaps its first public enquiry. I'll keep saying no, and resetting my amber career caption and hope tranche 3 comes up with the goods before i get a red and tone.:{

P.s thanks for the kind offer of help Almost done I'll put extra fries in your happy meal when i start my new job

[Almost_done]

Thanks for the kind offer of help Almost done I'll put extra fries in your happy meal when i start my new job

TY there and I'll make sure I keep the shelves in Tesco stacked for you when you finish the shift. :}

[tonkatechie]

I think there will be very few people who (if they're honest) haven't been in this position. There's always the temptation to pen-up an MP that rarely kicks up a fault, but you always have to remember that if it all goes horribly wrong, you have to explain yourself to a lot of angry people, including yourself! I've been fortunate to have had a couple of 'chats' in my career, one for an honest mistake and one for a unit enquiry (no injuries) in which I was deemed to have acted in "a thouroughly professional manner". I shudder to think what it would have been like if it had been the opposite - it's nerve wracking enough to think what you have done weeks before when you're not in the frame! The big message is simple, no-one will critisise you if you don't want to declare a jet serviceable despite there being pressure from above to do so. Afterall, if you truely believe it you'll be able to explain the engineering reasons why. If an SNCO or Officer wants you to waive a functional or other test that you know should be carried out, all you do is agree to it, then write a declaration on the job card to that effect, but with their name in the signature block. Finally, never underestimate the power of a Murphy report in your hand.....
Stick with it pvr not dwr, you're the one being professional, and that's what helps you sleep at night.:ok:

[tucumseh]

Tonka

"The big message is simple, no-one will critisise you if you don't want to declare a jet serviceable despite there being pressure from above to do so".

I agree with this, and that is my experience; albeit from many years ago.

However, the analogous question in DPA - Do you delay a project because the aircraft or equipment is unsafe? - is completely different. If you delay for that reason, or object to someone not delaying, you're on the carpet. (This is a formal ruling, confirmed under FOI).

Problem is caused by too many non-techies running the place, but thankfully they are not (yet) allowed to sign for technical approval.

[Blodwyn Pig]

i'm lucky in that i've always had trade managers/SNCO's that never really put the pressure on to just sign stuff off, or cut corners.

very occasionally you'd be asked to just sign things up, to which i'd reply, if you're happy, you sign it! this usually does the trick.