Military Forum?

[Tourist]

"A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here."

Perhaps it is just my weak grasp of the English language, but where exactly in that statement does it suggest that Journos/spotters are welcome?






Now I think about it, Adminers are stretching the point.

And Rockapes

Some might include ATC

http://bestsmileys.com/angles/3.gif

[FFP]

It's CRM and all that crap innit . . . ..

[The Helpful Stacker]

Even adminers have a part to play in flight safety.

Shiney messes up pilots pay (again) -> pilot gets into plane still thinking about how hes going to be able to afford the down payments on his vintage British sports car -> pilot still too busy thinking about money etc as he flies into side of mountain.

I'll give you rocks though and raise you plods.;)

[STANDTO]

Tourist,

If you do a search for 'Aircrew up his own Ar$e' you will probably be able to find other threads on this very subject!

Oh for goodness sake, the diversity on this board is half its appeal. I am (no longer) military, nor aircrew, and don't hide the fact.

And there is nothing wrong with rocks. Plods, well OK, depends........

[Maple 01]

Stacker, that was a FS film back in the 1970s with a young Richard O'Sullivan trashing a Harrier......

[DET1]

Threads like this make me wonder why I am still in after 30 years. Yes we are here to support the 'aircrew', but hey, without us you are stuffed, yes you can fly into wherever, some of the time, you can probably fix some of your snags some of the time, but to do the job properly you ARE part of a team, if you don't like it P*** off.

[Climebear]

Maple 01

That was from the 1970s? Bl**dy hell I'm getting old!

[boyassassin]

Det 1 without "aircrew" your jobs would cease to exist;)

[juliet]

as nice as it is to have a wide variety of people on this forums, it would be nice at times to restrict responses to aircrew. there is often a lot of input on these pages from people who really dont know what they are talking about when it comes to aviation. im only really interested in topics relating to flying and would kind of prefer if they werent taken over by blunts. i respect their knowledge and realise the part they play in keeping us flying which is why when i have a question outside of flying i will go to the expert in that field. i just think that the stackers/cops/admin types need to stick to what they know.

[4Foxtrot]

Agreed, but the original thread did cast a fairly wide net. Suffice to say that the relationship between aircrew and blunts is symbiotic.

[charliegolf]

Blimey, where'd the fun be if everyone stuck to what they knew?

CG

[Tourist]

DET1, what branch are you, and does it meet the criteria?

"A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here."


If so, then fine. Its Danny's trainset.
If not then its you that should p1ss off

[scroggs]

Fortunately, Tourist, you don't have a say in who is allowed to post here. The mix currently represented allows a broad and vigorous discussion about all matters to do with military aviation - and not just British military. As this is one of the most active, most informative and most entertaining fora on PPRuNe, we will leave it exactly as it is - including extending a welcome to all those who have a valid point to make about military aviation, whether they be aviators or not.

Let's face it, we are all (or mostly) tax-payers; they're our toys you're playing with!

Scroggs

[Jackonicko]

And many of the journos have 'got some in' before they went over to the dark side. Mick Smith was in the Army, I believe, and some of the specialist lads have PPLs, etc. a few of us even having been taught to fly on UASs.

[TWOL8]

Det 1 without "aircrew" your jobs would cease to exist;)

What a short sighted statement !!!! I wonder how you'll feel when the "playstation generation" are busy operating UAVs from the safety of blighty via a big computer screen. The air force will still need techies to fix, suppliers to source and intel from the int branch, in fact it will just be the "aircrew" who would be surplus to requirements.:{ :{

And if it means less people like you that can only be a good thing (IMHO)

[Tourist]

Well scroggs, why not change the tag line to

"A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here plus we would specifically like to welcome backstabbing journos and the opinions of any twonk who was in the cadets once and held a real BB gun once, honest"

Obviously Jacko is exempt because he touched a Bulldog once:rolleyes:

[FFP]

I know it was mentioned / discussed before, but the idea of a closed thread to me sounded good.

I do agree with the "But I'm ex mil, and want to contribute" and all the more better for it, but others have closed forums such as BA and Virgin. Why those organisations and not us ?

Not that I really care though. Just stirring things up :E

[rotorblades]

As a controller in the TVAA for a Civilian company, who i hasten to add gets military aircraft by the bucket loads - Vortex', Shawbury, Iceberg, ArmyAir, Navy, etc etc trying to fly through the helilanes (and not always doing a very good job of Navving), i feel we all have an equal part in the industry, and thus exchanging points of view on forums. It takes more than one point of view to make a discussion, otherwise its just butt-kissing.
If you feel that civvies should be excluded from mil areas, then we'll stop all military in civil control zones....

[Kitbag]

Tourist, I have looked back through your thread contributions. You seem to be either a long serving arrogant 'superior' aircraft crewman, or else a long serving arrogant fool. Does anyone else have an opinion? Look forward to Tourists reply, preferably in the terms one would expect of an Officer and a Gentleman. :ok:

[Safety_Helmut]

Tourist

I've got a lot of sympathy for you on this one. I am not aircrew, but I do think as an engineer I fill the published requirements. I think that there are many trades/specialisations which don't obviously fit the criteria though. Shineys, stackers, plods, rocks, fitters and turners, etc would all fit that list. But, and a big but, many of them do bring things to the discussion which we are probably too blinkered to see. We are all guilty of making the odd ill considered post, (excepting BEagle of course, who is never wrong), but I think the balance is generally okay, and most people try not to post where they know bugger all. There are exceptions of course, and they stand out like a dogs nads.

S_H

[Brit55]

Well said Kitbag,

Tourist brings nothing but arrogance to this forum, I strongly suspect that the only thing he flies is his misplaced ego. :mad:

Bitter and twisted is how you come across Tourist, bitter and twisted... Obviously a Fighter Controller stuck underground, in a field or perhaps in the new CRC with freshly bricked up windows!! :uhoh:

[Ghostie31]

Im on a UAS does that mean I'd have access to Tourist's imaginary forum?
:ok:
P.S. (I'm enjoying the inter-service banter :E)

[Time Flies]

I can see both sides of the argument here.

It's a great forum we have here with a wide spectrum of input, however, I have always thought it would be a good idea to have a closed forum.

Mods: Would this be a difficult thing to set up? I can only think the initial problem of weeding the Wannabies out from the Military Aircrew would be the biggest hurdle.

Any hope of seeing something like this in the future?

For now it looks like we'll have to keep baiting the blunties ;) and arguing about washing cars. :yuk:

TF

[Brit55]

Washing cars, thats a good point actually.

My wife bought a Discovery today and whilst I'm all in favour of us washing our own cars, I know she won't... :rolleyes:

Tourist, are you free on sunday for a valet? :p

A closed forum would, on occasion, be great in principle however, would they be possible to moderate? How would they go about checking out the credentials of each 'aircrew' member? Tough one.

[Talking Radalt]

What a short sighted statement !!!! I wonder how you'll feel when the "playstation generation" are busy operating UAVs from the safety of blighty via a big computer screen.

We'll all be SH (which is the way forward anyway) leaving you lot to play with your toy aeroplanes. :}

[Two's in]

Can you also get a set of wings for your pyjamas, so absolutely everyone you meet in bed has that last vestige of doubt cleared up about your aircrew status? I'm also thinking of having 'Flt Lt" tatooed on my willy, so I can pull rank on myself (have to abbreviate it for obvious reasons). Finding out that non-aircrew use this forum must rank up there for self-loathing right along with the moment you discovered your mother was a blasted civilian.

[Onan the Clumsy]

Det 1 without "aircrew" your jobs would cease to exist

Just being the Devil's Advocate you understand, but you can't fly it without someone fixing it...BUT even if they fixed it and nobody flew it, it'd soon break itself and need fixing again.

:8

[Data-Lynx]

Ghostie31 raises a good point about emerging aircrew. I've read much sage advice and a bit of banter from experienced aviation-minded PPRuNers on how to join up and get through the maze of interview boards. Would those who are asking the questions be allowed to negotiate Tourist's trap? Elsewhere, it is much harder to find brilliance amongst the frustration on the Army or Mover rumour sites. This site has dived into some heavyweight light-blue bitterness (grubby MT??) but always managed to soar. The balance and membership is about right, including Tourist. Where would we be without his/her views?

[juliet]

jeez, people can be a bit sensitive on here! surely it wouldnt be too hard to keep the military forum for general sort of all access stuff but also have a closed forum. im sure all the BA guys enjoy having the open forums but equally quite like being able to discuss things without every man and his dog reading. sometimes it would be nice to not have to worry so much about journos, not talking about classified stuff but just talking without worry of your comments so easily ending up being taken the wrong way by people out of the loop. anyway, we all have id numbers etc so shouldnt be too hard to restrict to active military, just like the BA/Virgin forums manage to do.

[teeteringhead]

Don't see the problem .... I've always seen this forum as a Happy Hour bar on a flying station (I know I've said this before) with a number of conversations going on. Lots are aircrew, and quite a few aren't. Similarly, the subjects may or may not be closely related to military aviation.

So what - your presence here and your contributions are both voluntary ... I'm sure I could go into a Happy Hour conversation and say "This is a boring/irrelevant/insular conversation ... please leave". And what a pr@t I'd be. I just don't join that particular conversation.

Nor do I say "You're not in uniform - b*gger off" ... 'cos believe it or not, filthy civvies may have something useful to contribute. And/or may be retired or wannabees, both of whom IMHO have a perfect right to hear and be heard - in the bar or on pprune.

As to a closed forum - the military ain't BA - just consider how you would "vet" people and what the security implications might be....

Unnecessary in principle - unworkable in practice.

[boyassassin]

What a short sighted statement !!!! I wonder how you'll feel when the "playstation generation" are busy operating UAVs from the safety of blighty via a big computer screen. The air force will still need techies to fix, suppliers to source and intel from the int branch, in fact it will just be the "aircrew" who would be surplus to requirements.:{ :{

And if it means less people like you that can only be a good thing (IMHO)

Great an Air Force full of techies, suppliers and int! Maybe also you could be the person to write the new MT orders:D

If that's the way you see things going, I'll get my coat

[insty66]

"If that's the way you see things going, I'll get my coat"

Do you mean to say there's no-one to do it for you?:E

Why do some of the aircrew in here feel the need to to have somewhere special just for them? Not enough love at work?;)
Or do you prefer a conversation where everyone agrees with each other?
I like the happy hour analogy. It makes sense and it is good for all of us, no matter where we work to get another perspective on all the topics discussed. If that's not too rational.

[ukatco_535]

Tourist

I am an ex Military Aviator and am now a civvy ATCO - I assume that I would have no place in your forum either?

You strike me as a pompous, arrogant tw@t; I assume you are in the senior service as your profile says you are a 'loafer WAFU'.

You seem to be the type of person who thinks that the world revolves around you - someone I would associate more with being in an air force due to flying being the raison detre of their being; certainly not someone who should realise that they are but one small cog in the machine.

Get a life; the forum works well, another private forum would maybe be a good idea for sensitive issues; but there is nothing wrong with the structure of this one. If you don't like it, go forth and multiply - you are not forced to use it. It's a rumour network - not the Queens Regs online.

[FCWhippingBoy]

Isn't that what the Officers'/SNCOs' Messes are all about - a closed forum where you can chat amongst your peers without the oiks getting to hear about it?

This is the Internet, do we really need to extend Aircrew/Non-Aircrew or even Commissioned/Non-Commissioned mentalities out into the public domain?

[oldbeefer]

Teetering head.. My feelings exactly.

[Tourist]

"Tourist brings nothing but arrogance to this forum, I strongly suspect that the only thing he flies is his misplaced ego.

Bitter and twisted is how you come across Tourist, bitter and twisted... Obviously a Fighter Controller stuck underground, in a field or perhaps in the new CRC with freshly bricked up windows!! "

Arrogant.....maybe.
Ego............I never said I was any good.
Bitter..........not even a tiny bit. My good fortune in flying appointments is notorious throughout the FAA. It has been suggested that on current trend, my next job will probably be Hugh Heffners plunge pool assistant.(that narrows my identity down a bit!) Truly cannot believe I get paid for this lark.
Twisted.......You will have to ask my wife.

I feel I should point out at this juncture that I never said the Military does not need a varied selection of branches to operate, just that in my opinion they don't fit the criteria for this forum.
I also never suggested that engineers don't fit, as they obviously do.

ukatco_535, you say I am

"someone I would associate more with being in an air force due to flying being the raison detre of their being"

erm yes.....I concur. Since when has being here for the love of flying been a bad thing? Would you rather I was here for the money?


Incidentally, I have nothing against civvy ATC. Extremely professional, helpful and competent. Navy ATC on the other hand......

[joe2812]

As someone who is another wannabe, I hope the Mil forum isn't locked out to us, cadets, civvies etc.

I come from a strong RAF-orientated family and am looking to go onto join after Uni, and this forum has provided me, and i'm sure many others, with a lot of decent info and banter.

This forum never fails to amuse or inform, or even just supply a decent read when the TV is naff. I don't participate often as I feel i'm out of place, but it'll be a shame to have such a good source of information and enjoyment restricted.

[Talkdownman]

As a controller in the TVAA for a Civilian company, who i hasten to add gets military aircraft by the bucket loads - Vortex', Shawbury, Iceberg, ArmyAir, Navy, etc etc trying to fly through etc
OK. Trick question, especially for EGUW Ops:
Which agency is the 'controlling authority' for the 'Thames Valley Avoidance Area' and permitted to authorise 'clearance' into said low-flying area?

[Biggus]

Joe2812

890 posts in a little under two years hardly seems like '....I don't participate often...'!!!

Anyway, observation over, let the slanging match continue ........

[rotorblades]

fly through the helilanes ...... military in civil control zones....
i never said id issue clearances in TVAA, just helilanes..get it right, the mil pilots call me requesting entry into the TVAA I barely know what the TVAA covers and dont really want to. You expect me to give you a service flying in Class G airspace flying from Wattisham to odiham or wherever, then you can expect to get my six-pennies worth if I can answer a question or have an opinion.

[Onan the Clumsy]

Think about it man! If the non-mil were locked out, what would happen to the Caption Competition?

eh?

[DET1]

Apologies if I have offended anyone with my statement. As stated before I have been in a long time, still love the job, work closely with aircrew and have enjoyed reading this forum. I believe it has started some excellent debate, and its debate on the Chinook enquiry, Ben Mcdui and a couple of other threads have been vital, however this is the last contribution that I will make on this forum. Apart from some obvious journo seeking, the forum is becoming an 'aircrew against the world' forum. I don't wish to put all the aircrew in the same basket but some of the threads have been personal and unneccessary. I will read with interest from now on, but no more input, small as it may have been. Well done Tourist, just remember the next time you have a low level abort in IMC that the idiot at the other end of the radio trying to help you is 'god forbid' not aircrew but I will try my utmost to keep you safe.

[Tourist]

Aw, Bless..............................

[Widger]

Tourist

Well as you are obviously a WAFU, you already have an inferiority complex built in, because the rest of your Service considers you an embuggerance, on a par with a Pusser. You are fit only to get the mail and milk. To the RN Master Race, you are just another weapon system! Though it pains me to say it...a least the light blue on these forums KNOW they ARE the Master Race in their Service.

You are obviously a GL Pr&tt and probably have a pseudomym called Totalwar!:ok: :E :ok: :E

[Kitbag]

DET 1, don't let yourself be disheartened by silly people. If you are a professional in the Flight Safety business you should certainly voice your valid opinions here.
Methinks Tourist must be a member of some coarse fishing club, the number of bites he's had. (Come to think of it, thats probably his only achievement)
Nearly edited that last bit out, but then no, why should I consider his feelings, he never does.
Thoughts anybody.

:ok:

[Widger]

Here fishy fishy.....



http://byandlarge.net/scuttlebutt/images/200411/fishing.jpg

[joe2812]

Joe2812
890 posts in a little under two years hardly seems like '....I don't participate often...'!!!
Anyway, observation over, let the slanging match continue ........

Sorry, I meant on the Mil forum.

[Jacks Down]

I would have thought that everybody should be able to co-exist peacefully, according to the 'happy hour model' which gets it spot on. I am not aircrew (although I do fit into the official description of who the forum is for), but I never post on the flying-only threads, I just wish there were more of them as they tend to me more entertaining than what goes past in between! Mind you, a lot of the more general threads make worthwhile contributions to the debate: for example, even the much-maligned MT rant throws a lot of light on a pretty wide cultural gulf that you obviously don't have to scratch the surface very hard to expose.

The aircrew purists could start more flying threads, and keep them going. As for a closed forum, how does anyone think that will work - a copy of your OJAR to prove who you are? More realistically there could be 2 forums, one for flying only and the other for general tenuously RAF related comment. If you moderated the backside out of the flying one to purge anything unworthy it could just work.

Keep Pprune united I say: 10 minutes on ARRSE is enough to remind me why I joined the Air Force; I can't understand a bloody thing they are saying on 'Rum Ration'; and the others are just full of Air Cadets. No offence, but that's not who I would drink with in happy hour. Where else can I go? (no suggestions please!)

JD

[Tourist]

So you want the thread to be more like Happy hour in the Wardroom.

In Wardroom/Officers Mess happy hours there are only officers.(Apart from the stewards to tidy up afterwards, of course.)
There are no spotters.
Occasional Cadets, potential Officer candidates, URNU's and UAS's
There are no Journos.
Pussers are totally ostracised
Engineers are mostly ignored.

As are zoomies.

Actually, I can see your point........and kind of like it...

[flower]

I am ex Military , come from a complete military background but am now in Civil ATC. As part of my normal everyday job I work military aircraft of all types.
Although I don't post, I do like to be able to access what is going on in the Military world, not only because of my past life but it helps to gain a better understanding of the military side of my work.

We regularly get a similar rant in rumours and news that the forum should be for professional pilots only, that of course keeps out all the rest of us who are still aviation professionals. I know just how frustrating "spotters" and armchairs pilots/ATCOs can be but most of the time you can simply ignore their posts within a couple of lines of reading them.

I would hope that we are all welcome to read these threads and if we have something valuable to contribute why shouldn't we post ?

We do have separate forums for various airlines and for example NATS, much of what goes on in there is commercial and not for outsiders to read, I am not so sure that could apply to the military but I have been out for so long now perhaps it now does.

[saudipc-9]

Hey where's AdminGuru when you need him to add some lively comments to this thread??:}

[Tourist]

Now he really shouldn't be on this Forum.
Not only a shiny @rse, but good at it.
The antithesis of all self respecting aircrew.

[torque dirty to me]

You have to admit though, it would be nice to actually post a Rumour on this rumour network without fear of pitching up in The Sun as, "A senior military spokesman said....":(