Trial By Press...Again

[Testingtheseatlimit2]

Sad to see on BBC this morning that a Maj Gen (sorry I've forgotten name) from the first GW, after trying to defend the Military against the actions of a few unworthy individuals in Iraq this last weekend, had the interview ended with what appeared to be a dressing down along the lines of "well, not a good week for the Armed Forces!" in an extremely condescending tone. The Maj Gen had explained that our boys and girls face a very difficult circumstance in the ME at the moment, and on the whole their conduct is exemplary. Whilst not condoning the acts of a couple of soldiers, he tried, very eloquently, to explain some of the stresses and strains that the troops are under. All that the BBC interveiwers pressed for was, how to blame the system, what shame our forces are bringing to our country and what we intended to do about it (I'd imagine they'd like an execution!). Whilst I understand the need for our leadership to take a formally strong view and completely villify the actions of these few men, why should we panda to a bollocking from some lilly-livered TV presenter? My advice would be to stay away from the press apart from the formal press releases from the MOD. The BBC just does not show balance any more and does not deserve our attention beyond that of the formal line! I feel for all our people in the Gulf at the moment who must ocassionally wonder why they bother.

[Jackonicko]

Oh do give it a rest.

While we would all condemn the press for its lamentable standards of accuracy, and for its too frequent partisan coverage, and for its institutional ignorance of the armed forces, coverage of Iraq since the war has been pretty balanced and fair, and the BBC has stood up for issues which affect the lives of our servicemen in theatre, against a penny-pinching government who have always been willing to exploit the public popularity of the services while failing to provide the tools or the leadership necessary to get the job done.

While I would disagree with your contention that servicemen should "stay away from the press apart from the formal press releases from the MOD" it's certainly true that anyone dealing with a journo should be careful and selective about which journos he/she deals with, since the breed differ widely in their trustworthiness and sympathies. I often think that the media training dished out to those who are posted into Corporate Comms/Press/Public/Community Relations roles is inadequate.

But on this particular issue any journo (and not just the lilly-livered variety) will be giving the soldiers involved a metaphorical bollocking, quite rightly. NOTHING justifies the level of casual brutality meted out to unarmed shoeless teenagers. Even those who would accept the occasional need to beat information out of a dangerous enemy would surely see the difference between a rigorous and robust interrogation and what was a crude, unstructured and unsupervised beating?

Senior officers should not just "take a formally strong view" - this was entirely unacceptable and really does bring shame on our country and on the British Army, and those involved are scum who do not deserve to wear the uniform.

But what a shame that the Sun should publish the pictures and then distribute the video rather than putting it into the hands of the MoD first. I'm old fashioned enough to think that unless and until an MoD enquiry and process could be seen to have failed to uncover the problems and punish the guilty, it's NOT in the public interest for this video to have had a public airing.

[BEagle]

If this video had been handed staright to Ministry minders, do you think anyone would ever have got to hear of it?

Simiarly, the shocking revelation about the level of drug abuse in certain regiments in yesterday's Sunday Times "MoD payout to 'hush up army drug abuse' "

Time that very harsh action was taken against these miscreants.

[windriver]

I`d like to know if "Whistleblower"

a) Received money for the video..
b) Attempted resolution through service channels first..

Arguably this type of thing should be dealt with (in the first instance) robustly and internally at the highest level rather than hysterically in public. The conclusions and actions then published to serve the Public Interest.

[Lafyar Cokov]

Yes, what these people (if it is genuine - and I have no reason to suspect that it isn't) have done is very wrong and they do our cause (of trying to placate the Iraqi's in theatre) no good whatsoever - however do we really need to have all our washing done for us in public. The insurgent media machine in Iraq is far better than we give it credit for. The Arabic media would never release - let alone hype out of all proportion - images that would damage thier cause. Yet in order to sell papers (and I would doubt that 'The News of The World' is interested in much else) our own media seem fit to publish images/video that will do countless ammounts of damage to our creditbility and will spurn more insurgents on to take out British servicemen who, no-doubt, have nothing to do with the incident. These horrific looking incidents took place in early 2004 but 2 1/2 years later it is sailors, soldiers and airmen out there now who will pay for it. I am not suggesting that incidents like these should be brushed under the carpet but the way they are presented should be with a little responsibility. [rant off/]

[timex]

But what a shame that the Sun should publish the pictures and then distribute the video rather than putting it into the hands of the MoD first. I'm old fashioned enough to think that unless and until an MoD enquiry and process could be seen to have failed to uncover the problems and punish the guilty, it's NOT in the public interest for this video to have had a public airing.

Sadly the press don't seem to agree, it always appears to be a publish and be damned attitude.. and people wonder why we don't trust the press?

[Charlie Luncher]

Once again the high and mighty gutter living hacks jump on the bandwagon, they view a snapshot of life in the MEAO without knowing the full story and off they go!:mad:
I am sure it is very clear in a Home Counties public bar over your chardonnay to decide how to persecute the whole armed forces for the actions of a few idiots, who may just have had enough for one day!! :mad: As for some hacks being better than others, I saw none stand up when the mirror ran its famed fake story, and I see none with me now that the book deal and big story is not about to break. So sorry Jacko you are all the same to me you do not care who you hurt, put at increased risk or jeopardise in the quest for your next story.
Charlie sends from the frontline

[Testingtheseatlimit]

Jacko,

No member of the press has any right, even metaphorically, to bollock, dress down or generally 'have a go' at our armed forces. They should just report the facts; that is enough. How often do we see reports on the BBC morning news of the great job our troops are doing, keeping the peace, rebuilding infrastructure, helping to get a democratic Iraq on its feet. Warranted, there is an ocassional reference, an ocassional report here and there, but these acts of kindness and service are going on on a daily basis. As soon as something goes wrong, (again, I'm not condoning it or making light of a serious misdemeanor) the press jump on the sensationalist bandwaggon and paint a very poor picture of our boys and girls. How can you possibly claim balance in the current press reporting. Shame on you.

[Large Dave]

Whoever sold the video and all involved with publishing it have achieved nothing more than creating the perfect recruting video for religious extremism and terrorism.
Undoubtedly this will lead to increased attacks on British forces and possibly British civilians. Those responsible for leaking this video will have the blood of their comrades and countrymen on their hands.

[charliegolf]

Press Release:

"These incidents happened several months ago.

The soldiers involved have been disciplined, and their SNCOs severely reprimanded. The matter is closed."

Only they weren't, were they? All those involved, and all the section who walked past doing nothing should be hammered.

But we big boys don't tell tales do we? Not manly.

CG

[Skeleton]

Makes my blood boil when people like Jacko leap to the defence of the press the instant someone dares to disagree.

Yes it looks like this video is real and the people involved (including the bystanders) deserve all they get.

What they dont need is reporters, the majority of whom, (well i never saw any) have never been to the sandpit, trying to run the British Military.

Walk the walk as they say.

Be good if they also stuck to the facts - no thought not.

[Jackonicko]

"How often do we see reports on the BBC morning news of the great job our troops are doing, keeping the peace, rebuilding infrastructure, helping to get a democratic Iraq on its feet."

Not often in the morning news headlines, because it patently isn't news. "British Army displays great professionalism" is hardly "Man bites dog" is it? But new deployments, outstanding incidents etc. Army participation in news events (eg elections) are reported, and there are frequent 'Mike Hack reports from his patrol with the Queen's Royal Shunt Tappers in Basrah' type reports, which always seem to emphasise the professionalism of the troops, and the good they are doing in Iraq.

But there is a great deal of media coverage (on the BBC and elsewhere) of exactly what you describe. More often in regional and local programmes and in local and regional papers where there is a local connection with a particular individual or unit. There is certainly a great deal of supportive and sympathetic coverage of casualties, and the media tends to take the side of 'our boys' when procurement people or politicos let them down.

But again, when British troops act in a way that disgraces their uniform and shames their country, they deserve censure.

[Out Of Trim]

I'd love to see a compound full of journalists attacked by a large riot of Iraqi civilians and insurgents with rocks, grenades, mortars etc. And then possibly having then seen some of their number; possibly some of their good friends blown-up, killed or injured.

And then, having caught some of the rioters see just how they would "interview them."

I suppose it would be tea and biscuits and such. Yeah right!

The army trains it's men to fight wars, not be Policemen; although they often do end up in a policing role and pretty much do a stirling job. However, I would expect that at times some will react a bit over the top.. but hey! nobody died!

[Jackonicko]

Had this happened when the RMPs were murdered, or even when that APC was set ablaze and stoned by a mob, and had it been targeted against people involved in those events, then many people would take a more lenient view. Especially if the beating had been administered immediately, as soon as the youths were apprehended.

But it didn't, and there was enough breathing space for hot heads to have cooled as the youths were frogmarched back to the compound where these cowards then had their fun.

The level of violence was disproportionate, uncontrolled, and inexcusable. Beating unarmed barefoot teenagers with batons is not what the British Army should be doing, and that piece of pondlife who kicked one of them in the crotch, from behind, deserves to have the same done to him, the yellow bastard.

Thanks to these half wits, all Brits will now be hated and reviled more than they were last week, and the reputation of our armed forces will have dipped further.

[Testingtheseatlimit]

Yeah but only because of the disproportionate, uncontrolled and inexcusable way that the press have chosen to report on an event that occurred 2.5 years ago!

[Skeleton]

Well said Testing... where were the press when the Army policeman got a lot worse than these teenagers did.

As i said... walk the walk.

Edited becuase i sick of armchair writers

[MrBernoulli]

I don't pretend to condone what was going on ...... but I am trying to understand what was going on in the minds of those soldiers, and all soldiers in Iraq, who have to face the daily dangers. Waiting for the next mortar, bullet (or hail of bullets, more like) or roadside bomb.

Do we really understand what that does to ones mind? Every day for months on end? Do we really? Terribly easy to sit in judgement back here in our comfy chairs. Iraq is on f****d-up place. No fun to be there, whatsoever.

[Mick Smith]

Time to put my head back above the parapet I think. The media do I am afraid have a role in reporting on and yes commenting on the behaviour of anyone in public life - that is actually the role they should perform keeping the public informed of what is going on - but the opinion has of course to be kept out of the news pages. Most of the hacks writing about this today will have been to both Afghanistan and Iraq and with respect most of them would have been there with the army which is perhaps why a bluejob wouldnt see them.

I realise that I am in danger of sounding like my grandad used to but I spent 15 years in the army and while there were of course the odd occasions when things went badly wrong in Northern Ireland - Bloody Sunday among them - I cannot imagine anyone I served with doing some of the things that have gone on.

It has not been just one regiment there has been a depressing series of them. Someone mentioned the drugs story. I may be being naive but I was seriously shocked when I heard the interview and the evidence of what appears to have gone on in that particular regiment. I was also seriously shocked by the evidence in the court martial involving the guys in the Breadbasket case where it was clear that officers had breached Geneva rules and not been even investigated, while a corporal who simply stopped the abuse the minute he saw it, and bawled out his men, but didnt report it up the chain, was put away for longer than anyone else.

There is something seriously awry with the British Army at the moment and while it is of course true that most of them are heroes who should make us all proud, it is no longer sensible to keep saying it is just a few bad apples. Certainly it is a very small minority but it clearly isnt just a one-off. Just read this evidence to the defence select committee on the treatment received by the parents of the kids who committed suicide at Deepcut. It's nothing to do with Iraq and being under immense strain, as the guys in the video undoubtedly were, this is just the behaviour of troops in bases in the UK and just as disgracefully officers in charge of them who clearly did not deserve to hold a commission. Given the circumstances, it is in some ways far more damning.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200405/cmselect/cmdfence/63/41201p04.htm

[BATS]

Twenty five years ago I joined a professional service which took, and I believe still takes, pride in it's behaviour and conduct whether during operations or not. If we condone the acts of those few among us who abuse and commit 'atrocities', we are guilty of a crime no less abhorrent than those of the odious regimes whom we villify. I understand the pressure and frustrations of active service; I've done my share in recent times, but while stepping off the moral high ground is arguably understandable, it is never, ever acceptable !

[Stu_Pidazzo]

Its seditious behavior to give the media this type of thing, let alone seditious acts for the media to print this. Would the media have done this during WWII? I doubt it.

[Testingtheseatlimit]

Mick and BATS. I hope you haven't misread any of these replies to read that anyone condones any of the behaviour that we have seen. This is about the manner and the balance by which these events are reported. true to say that the British public will have forgotten in the next few days, but what about the disaffected Muslims in our society... will they forget... no. But they do choose to forget and ignore the good stuff that is not reported in such a vociferous fashion. Guys, its all about balance. It is not a matter of condoning or defending the actions of a few men, in any case were any of us there ......... for the most the answer is no!

[BATS]

Sorry, but Jacko and Mick are right - if we drop our standards, it deserves to be reported and the method of release is utterly irrelevant. We may not like it but it is the price that we pay for the actions of a misguided few.

[timex]

Sorry, but Jacko and Mick are right - if we drop our standards, it deserves to be reported and the method of release is utterly irrelevant. We may not like it but it is the price that we pay for the actions of a misguided few.

Actually the price will be paid by the rest of the troops on the ground, along with (and I hope not) posssible attacks at home. Will that be a balanced response?

Sorry but the further the press are away the better. Front pages and money are the only driving force.

[hobie]

ignoring the normal pressures of modern warfare ......

throw enough rocks and urine and faeces at a guy ..... have him face young men and women who approach him with smiles on their faces and then detonate explosives in his face ... have him scrape up the remains of colleques ..... have him read notes from his political leaders from home that he is fighting an honourable war when the mass of the local population can't stand the sight of him .....

Is it any wonder 'some' are driven to the lowest level of behaviour ..... it doesn't surprise me one bit .... nor the behaviour of the Media and their 'joy' in discovering such activities .......

[Mick Smith]

Firstly if the press didnt report this sort of thing you wouldnt ever hear about it. Secondly I take deep umbrage at the suggestion that I as a reporter am driven by ensuring my paper earns more money.
Like most reporters I am driven by the desire to get the story, to tell the readers what is going on out there. In short to do my job properly and to the best of my ability. If you dont like it it's your right but the media is doing its job, doing what it is supposed to do. it is not some personal vendetta against the forces. The attempts to out wrongdoing extend right across public life and rightly so.
Nor does the media only write critically about the forces. I have written yards and yards of stuff about how good our forces are and so have my colleagues, even on the leftist papers. At the time these attacks were going on I was midway through an extended magazine article on how good our troops were at dealing with local people at the Provincial Reconstruction Team at Mazar, an article that took two trips six months apart.
I was also reporting contemporaneously about the tough time the troops were having handling Iraqis who were rioting over something over which our troops have no control. It had to be done from a distance. There was a lot of good stuff going on in southern Iraq at the time but the MoD kept the media away. Still some reporters managed to get out there and report it.
But if someone does this then it has to be reported too. The suggestion that we should take this to the MoD and then wait for them to let us print the story is naive frankly. The MoD would cover it up and deal with it quietly. The UK military courts system is open only in name.
It isnt nice to hear about this stuff but it has to be reported if anyone is going to do anything to change things. To my mind that is what is critical here. The people who want to attack our boys in Iraq don't need an excuse they will do it anyway. As I said before, the idea that this type of behaviour is a one-off is blown away by the evidence. We need to stop saying 'oh its only a few what are you moaning about' and start getting things back to a position where this type of behaviour is not even contemplated yet alone tolerated

[timex]

A free press or cover-ups what do you want?

Responsibility would be nice, truth also helps... sorry but everytime Ive met a reporter he (or she) have changed the story to the way they want them to be.

[Ali Barber]

Why not offer the vid to the MOD for investigation with the proviso of a scoop whichever way it turns out, and a promise of revelation with an even more damining story if it's covered up. If they renege on the deal, you have a signed contract so sue them and "publish and be damned".

As for the video itself, I've only seen the highlights on Sky. Does anyone know what happened during the half hour before it was filmed. Not condoning, but after the comments about the RMP incident and others, I don't have any idea what would make them react like that other than prior provocation.

I now live and work in a Muslim society, and a very tolerant one as it happens. They are all disappointed and can't believe that this is the norm for the British Forces. But they are subject to selective reporting as, when I pointed out how long ago this had hapened, they all throught it was filmed yesterday. The universal comment is "we could believe it if it was the Americans, but not the Brits". They are all happy with the idea that it is the small minority, if, in fact, it is for real after the Mirror fiasco.

So, it seems, we are still the most popular nationality to deliver a kicking. Sorry, that was in bad taste!

[Ali Barber]

Why not offer the vid to the MOD for investigation with the proviso of a scoop whichever way it turns out, and a promise of revelation with an even more damining story if it's covered up. If they renege on the deal, you have a signed contract so sue them and "publish and be damned".

As for the video itself, I've only seen the highlights on Sky. Does anyone know what happened during the half hour before it was filmed. Not condoning, but after the comments about the RMP incident and others, I don't have any idea what would make them react like that other than prior provocation.

I now live and work in a Muslim society, and a very tolerant one as it happens. They are all disappointed and can't believe that this is the norm for the British Forces. But they are subject to selective reporting as, when I pointed out how long ago this had hapened, they all throught it was filmed yesterday. The universal comment is "we could believe it if it was the Americans, but not the Brits". They are all happy with the idea that it is the small minority, if, in fact, it is for real after the Mirror fiasco.

So, it seems, we are still the most popular nationality to deliver a kicking. Sorry, that was in bad taste!

[Tim McLelland]

Personally-speaking, I wish the bleeding-heart commentators and the sh*t-stirring media would grow-up and congratulate our shamelessly misused servicemen for kicking the sh*t out of the little bastards. Maybe they'll think twice about throwing stones at people next time? On the other hand, maybe they wont?! Who knows? Who cares? Bring our servicemen home and leave these peasants to it. As one very wise commentator said a while back, the whole nation of Iraq isn't worth the life of even one British serviceman.

[tablet_eraser]

Mick,

Thank you for your post - I don't subscribe to the idea that all hacks are soulless monsters out to tear the Armed Forces apart. However, some papers could certainly do a lot better than spouting bile one day and pouring roses on us the next.

I forget who mentioned the BBC as an example of a horribly biased organisation that wants nothing more than to hurt the military. Having watched the Ten O'Clock News this evening, I was more than impressed with the BBC. They aired the scenes on the video up to the moment when the News of the World's footage starts. It shows a crowd of Iraqi youths attacking a British military compound after it has been mortared. Troops rush forwards to disperse the crowd, and a few of them capture some youths. Now faced with the people who have just tried to kill them, the troops are rough but efficient.

It is after this that a small group of soldiers take some of the youths into a separate area - away from the rest of the platoon and therefore out of sight and control - and assault some of the youths. The commentary on the video is, frankly, sickening.

The point to the BBC's airing of the main part of the video was to put the attack into context. They spent 10 minutes interviewing people to find out - surprise, surprise - that being mortared and stoned is to say the least a tad annoying, and likely to bring out the worse in us all. This does not excuse the atrocious behaviour of the soldiers shown in the NotW's footage, but the BBC went to great lengths to contrast that behaviour with the behaviour of the majority of British troops.

The sad fact is, no amount of mitigation is going to prevent a backlash. After Piers "Morgan" Moron published hoaxed photos of British "abuse" a few years back, the backlash was severe. Despite the fact that the story was a pack of lies.

I fear the NotW - perhaps acting altrusitically - has lit a tinderbox now. They did not show the video in its full context, choosing to concentrate on the harsher side instead of pointing out that not a single shot was fired in what must have been a terrifying and stressful situation. THAT is what should p!$$ every decent journalist off.

t_e

Mr McLelland - I don't know if you're serving at the moment, but you sure as hell don't speak for me.

[Mick Smith]

Just one thing more before I shut up. I wouldnt jump to conclusions that the News of the World didnt go to the MoD and give them time to track the cpl down given the speed of the arrest.

[BellEndBob]

Jesus.H.Christ.
I do not condone what these chimps did but it was 2 years ago. Therefore, the only reason to release it now is to damage the op in Afghanistan, and sell newspapers.
I have been on the recieving end of an attack by Muslim youths and it was f:mad: ing scarey I can tell you. Had they got hold of me they would have torn my head off. Had i got hold of them i would have done the same.
This was either a political initiative or a crude attempt to make money from within the regiment.
Jackinocko, read the autocue and keep your opinions to yourself. You are there to report news, not make it.
Maybe we should have issued ASBO's to these youths, sent social workers and showered them with benefits, then the real soldiers could have concentrated on catching Iraqui citizens breaking the speed limit.
That way, they would be just like us.
I am staggered that we send the fine young men and women to do Bliars bidding in Iraq, only to be condemned by the actions of the few, under difficult circumstances and yet Robert Peels Unarmed Militia (the useless British Police Service), at the same time, provide protection to those who would harm us, and threaten those who complain.

[dragon166]

Yet again the British Press appears intent on putting our soldiers in danger by publishing these photos. As is normal, they appear to have been taken totally out of context. in order to display the press's idea that all soldiers are brutal and uncontrolled. It is rather convenient that the events leading up to these images is not recorded, thus preventing us from deciding, for ouselves. whether the events shown had any just cause. Worst actions have been seen on television, meted out by various Police Forces in Europe, during periods of football violence or street demonstrations in Paris.

The responsibity of the Press is to tell the truth but also to ensure that their actions do not inflame a situation. In the present climate, especially following the actions shown around the world, due to the publication of a cartoon, then I feel the present situation should have been avoided at all costs. It shows that the press have scant regard for the safety of British soldiers, who are presently overstretched, sent to police the world and expect nothing other than to be stabbed in the back by their own countrymen - and all in the name of selling newspapers.

Whilst not condoning any acts of violence when they are not necessary, I do believe that sometimes events necessitate response. It seems strange to me that this very Regiment, attacked and set on fire by Iraqi mobs. recieve a small mention one day but, following this video, are villified by overblown coverage.

Perhaps the time has come to pull all our troops out of these areas, where they are intent on killing the own people, and telling the whole lot of them to sort themselves out.

[Tim McLelland]

Eraser, perhaps you might care to note the...er, first words in my posting?
Oh, and what "backlash" exactly? You mean they might start throwing bricks or delivering suicide bombs? Oh yeah, I forgot, they were doing that already, doh!
I wonder why it is, that we're incapable of simply dealing with these people in the manner to which they are accustomed and, ultimately, the only kind of response that they ever understand?
As Dragon has just suggested previously, the time has indeed come (it came ages ago) where we should leave these people to sort themselves out, indeed we ought to have never got involved in the first place. The notion that sending even more British servicemen out to Afghanistan is going to prevent so much as one terrorist attack is, of course, entirely specious.
We don't have the resources to embark on international crusades, and if George W wants to save the world for his Religious Right, then let him get on with it, without dragging us along with him. The Ministry of Defence ought to ponder on the definition of the term "defence" and ask where, exactly, sending servicemen to these God-forsaken countries has ever saved so much as one British life. Unless I'm very much mistaken, it's actually killed far too many?

[charliegolf]

Dragon

Yes, events do lead to responses.

Had the troops been fired on, I would expect them to return fire. End of on that score.

I wouldn't expect them to carry out any revenge shootings after the fact though.

Our troops were stoned: had they used baton rounds or mounded a 'stick charge' back at them- ok.

But that's not the same as grabbing a few for revenge.

Video like this kinda stops me pushing my firm view that British troops are the best in the world. And i'm ex-RAF!

CG

[Tim McLelland]

Dragon
Our troops were stoned: CG

That explains it then:ooh:

[charliegolf]

Tim,

Your point, for the special needs amongst us is?

Mine was that a response is to be expected in a given circumstance. This one wasn't appropriate.

CG

[timex]

Video like this kinda stops me pushing my firm view that British troops are the best in the world. And i'm ex-RAF!


CG, not sure what you did in the RAF but it would be very doubtfull if you were ever in this or a similar situation. Perhaps picking up what's left of a friend may change that point of view.

I don't condone what they did (well not all of it..), but I do know what they were going through. Also bear in mind petrol bombers were fair game for a long time in the Province.

[FJJP]

Puts me in mind of the aftermath of the Lee Clegg affair. 'We'll stand behind you, boys' came the cry from the MoD. The when it came to the crunch, he was left hung out to dry.

Seem to remember that those on guard with guns and one up the spout vowed to shoot IN THE GENERAL DIRECTION of someone threatening, iaw the green [or whatever colour] card. That meant aiming to miss by a wide berth - just close enough to frighten the little sh*t, but avoiding all the subsequent court proceedings that would have resulted if they had hit it.

How soon before we get to the stage where commanders will insist on a legal man in the field to advise BEFORE a nasty happens? If the JAG programme on SKY is in any way slightly accurate legally, then the Americans already do it. Wouldn't you just love to have a lawyer in full combats [and fully trained] going out with you on patrol? Wouldn't it focus their minds wonderfully into the reality of real combat, instead of the present situation in their comfy armchairs with their perception of what it's like?

It might colour their arguments in court somewhat...

[Two's in]

So how much of last week's 'restraint" shown by the UK Press in not publishing the offensive Muslim cartoons was genuine, and how much was the result of an off the record D Notice chat from one of Tony's spooks? Restraint my ar$e! They (the press) simply do not know the meaning of the word, and certainly not when the opportunity to exploit and condemn presents itself, regardless of the reprehensible actions of those neanderthal knuckle draggers on film. Makes you proud to be British.

[SASless]

Aw...gee...some brick throwing...grenade tossing...dickweed got kicked in the balls....Gosh! How terrible!

[charliegolf]

Timex

Helicopter crewman - did my 'province' time. That's where I formed the opinion that British troops are the best. Working with other nato troops in RAFG solidified the opinion permanently.

CG

[Flatus Veteranus]

“We aren’t no thin red ‘eroes, nor we aren’t no blackguards too,
But single men in barracks, most remarkable like you;
An’ if sometimes our conduck isn’t all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barracks don’t grow into plaster saints.”

Tommy – Kipling

Night after night in the 70s and 80s we watched on TV British soldiers reduced to the role of supine targets, while homicidal young thugs rained stones and petrol bombs on them . What, I used to ask myself, do they, their commanders, and our politicians think they are achieving that is worth the abuse they are suffering? Evidently it was called “peace-keeping” – an activity for which the British Army became renowned (we are constantly told, although I never heard any praise for them from the Americans during my tours in the USA). The waste of British blood and treasure was possibly excusable, to my mind, when the murderous hooligans they confronted were at least technically British.

I cannot see any justification for the use by politicians and Generals of our soldiers as targets for Iraqi thugs. The sole purpose of their presence in Iraq seems to be to indulge Blair’s vanity. Any pretence that that they are there to train and reinforce Iraqi security forces has been exposed by the Baghdad Provincial Council’s announced withdrawal of cooperation with the army.

I believe it is time the British authorities told the Iraqis that they will amend our soldiers’ Rules of Engagement so that they may counter any violence by Iraqi thugs, including stone-throwing, with lethal force. If the Iraqis object, or if our “bleeding hearts” lawyers and judges think that such action would be “disproportionate”, we should withdraw our cooperation and bring the troops home. Now.

[Sunfish]

What a load of cobblers you guys are talking.

Here is the video. See for yourself what a fine upstanding bunch your comrades are. Dishonourbale discharge for the lot of them including the platoon commander because this is the sort of behaviour that makes people become militants.

As I said, watch the video before you talk more garbage.

http://astream.com/links/notw/together_300.asx

[Tourist]

Sunfish.
The conduct does seem to be deplorable, however.
I have not, and I suspect neither have you, seen the whole unedited video including the lead up to this incident.
I do not know what these Iraqis had done, if in fact anything at all.
I was not there, and I would hesitate to make a judgement on the behaviour of a bunch of young lads with possibly very high adrenaline/stress levels.

At the end of the day, they got a bit of a kicking. We have all had one at some time and they'll get over it.

Allegedly the crowd was throwing grenades.
I don't know about you but I would consider shooting someone who tried to kill me with a grenade an appropriate response. A light kicking seems a small punishment if subsequent investigation shows that grenades were in fact thrown.

[Sunfish]

Tourist, with the greatest of respect, if grenades had or were being thrown, I would imagine that the rules of engagement would have allowed fire. Furthermore, to go chasing after guys throwing grenades is suicidal.

The damage done by this is not to the reputation of the service over here, it's on the ground in Iraq. There would have to be a full scale civil affairs program going on, and this sort of stupid incident affects the success of that program.

To put it another way, what if this incident is the final straw for some kid to start jihad and become a suicide bomber?

[Tim McLelland]

Sunfish we've all seen the video and guess what - most of us think it's just about time that our servicemen dealt with these people in the kind of way that they understand.
Despite the efforts of the press to try and tell us what to think, once again, common sense seems to have prevailed, and while the politicians wring their hands in fake concern, the rest of us just keep thinking "about time too - they got what they deserve".
We're talking about people that throw bricks, fire bombs, deliver suicide bombs, and saw-off people's heads. They ain't worth tuppence; no right-minded person gives a damn, and it's gratifying to see that despite all the usual media and government-led advice on what we're supposed to think and feel, the typical guy in the street thinks it's a classic case of rough justice.
Call me old fashioned. but I'm with our servicemen on this one, all the way.

[Sunfish]

And when another mob of kids throw stones and soldiers race out looking for someone to hit, only to detonate a car bomb, what will you think then Tim?

Should have left it to the Iraqi police.

[SkyHawk-N]

Sunfish, I reckon you ought to get on the next flight over there and show them exactly how it should be done. :ok:

[timex]

[QUOTE]Helicopter crewman - did my 'province' time. [QUOTE]

Which although a good job doesn't put you in the middle of the Falls road or downtown Basra in the middle of a Riot. Which is the point I was making, as they say walk a mile in his / her shoes.

[Tim McLelland]

You get the feeling that sunfish can't even see the absuirdity of his position! Maybe he should join the government - he'd be in good company;)

[Roland Pulfrew]

As we have now all had the opportunity to view the moments leading up to this "beating" (thank you BBC) it shows the troops under attack from either grenade or mortar. So a few little scrotes got a bit of a kicking - so what!

The News of the World should be the ones being vilified here. This "exclusive", a 2 and a bit year old exclusive, is nothing more than a way to sell papers. Just like the Mirror and the back of the truck incident. When will these (so called) journalists realise that all they are doing is feeding the insurgency, damaging the good that our troops have achieved and promoting the chances of suicide bombings in the UK?

The fact that the Iraqi youths concerned didn't come forward 2 years ago to complain of their treatment speaks volumes! Perhaps they accepted that they deserved a bit of a kicking and, apart from the kick in the balls, there isn't much more than fisticuffs shown on the video.

This is not about 'journalism and getting a story' its about selling newspapers. Nothing more and nothing less. Unfortunately these journalists (and I do not refer to all journalists) do not think through their actions and the possible repercussions.

At a time when the UK military is about to deploy to the most lawless part of Afghanistan, whilst still trying to support the Iraqi authorities in the south of Iraq, I hope that the death of any British serviceman from rioting or suicide bomb in either theatre leads to the "journalists" in question doing the right thing. I have my own views on what that should be but I wont hold my breath!!

Personally I think the time has come to ban journalists from all military installations and from op theatres - you cannot trust them! I know I am tarring them all with the same brush, but that is what they do to the UK military every time they publish events such as this; particularly when they fail to publish the FULL story!

[Tim McLelland]

It does illustrate something which goes rather wider than this particular story. The media (particularly newspapers) have long-since reached a stage where simple reporting of facts is no longer their primarly interest. Newspapers are now more concerned with setting their own agendas, and "interpreting" news for their readers, which effectively means they tell the reader what they ought to think. Television news isn't quite so bad, but even they have drifted into this kind of position, so that (for example) they can't refer to the now-infamous footage of the solders beating the Iraqi brats without calling it "shocking footage", as if we'd be incapable of deciding whether it was in fact shocking or merely understandable, without their advice.
However, it's encouraging to see that the Great British Public isn't quite so stupid as the media often imagines. For example, the long and tedious Michael Barrymore saga began with the Sun trying to pin a murder charge on the entertainer, essentially because he had "come out" as being gay, and the Sun evidently thought this was a sufficiently serious crime to have him expelled from television. Through a process of ferocious mud-slinging and colourful language, they managed to reach a position where people were actually starting to believe a completely different set of facts to those which were the truth.
But fascinatingly, when Barrymore appeared on the recent Celebrity Big Brother show, he received a hugely warm response when he went in, won the runner-up position in the show, and received a standing ovation on the first TV show he did the following week. And what did The Sun do about it? They evidently decided that despite their poison, their best bet was to drop the "shamed entertainer Barrymore" line of two week's previously, and pay him for his "story" and arrange a meeting with the father of the guy who was found dead in Barrymore's pool!
Interesting isn't it, how a newspaper can suddenly shift through 180 degrees, when they finally realise that even with all the vitriol at their disposal, the public managed to see right through it.
The same situation may well apply with the "shocking footage" of the Iraqi thugs being beaten. Despite the newspapers and other media whipping themselves into a frenzy of supposed outrage, one suspects that the vast majority of right-thinking people in this country are quietly thinking to themselves that this sort of reaction has been going on all along, and that it's entirely understandable and justified.

[SASless]

Sunfish,

Exactly what does make "militants"?

Bin Liner said it was the presence of US Troops in Saudi. The very troops who were protecting Saudi and retrieving Kuwait from the Iraqi's.

You reckon we might have a problem with "militants" long before the British Army ever showed up in Basra?

The bombers in London did not know about this video when they did their bombing attacks....what provoked them?

I suggest to you Sunfish....you do not have a grasp of the real. Militants come from the little ones that are being taught hate from their first days as bobbing heads in school. Videos taken in Basra have nothing to do with that.

[MightyGem]

Having been too close to the odd riot in NI, it's normal SOP. Identify those egging the others on, send a snatch squad out to grab them, then give them a good kicking. May I suggest that without the cameraman's "commentary", there wouldn't be so much of a fuss?

[Days Like These]

For me, it's not the fact that the article was published that was the problem. Yes it is a newsworthy story. However, it was the exceptionally biased and sensationalist manner in which it was reported. The commentary was inflammatory and the facts only partially apparent. Call me naive but I thought quality journalists only stated facts. Save opinions and half-truths for the opinion and letters pages.

The Al-Qaeda marketing department must be having a field day...

[Sunfish]

Sas, there are plenty of "militants' around, always have been at least since Guy Fawkes time. But why add to their ranks by bashing kids, and then having the stupidity to have someone film it?

[Tim McLelland]

As has been suggested previously, that's flawed thinking, as it implies that "bashing kids" (which wasn't exactly what was filmed in any case, was it?) add to the "ranks of militants." Of course, it doesn't add to these ranks, as the militants (or at least the type of person that thinks it's reasonable to throw missiles, shoot people, deliver bombs and slit people's throats) already existed, and if the piece of film did anything negative, it was merely to give these people something tangible that they can spout about to people that are, of course, gagging to hear it in the first place.
But of course, even this is of no consequence if our media had the guts to simply report the footage, show it, comment that there is absolutely no indication to suggest that the commentary has been provided by anyone other than a newspaper hack, and that it's a simple illustration of rough justice being handed-out to people that entirely and unreservedly deserved it.

[heights good]

[QUOTE]Helicopter crewman - did my 'province' time. [QUOTE]
Which although a good job doesn't put you in the middle of the Falls road or downtown Basra in the middle of a Riot. Which is the point I was making, as they say walk a mile in his / her shoes.

Well timex you are in fact wrong. Most aircrew were given at least a few opportunities to go out on patrol in South Armagh. Trust me this is NOT a pleasant experience but nowhere near like being shot at, petrol bombed etc. Even although NIBAT1 was a nasty place its not as bad as Iraq. Believe me, even now i wouldnt want to go on patrol in NI, never mind Iraq.

[MightyGem]

Also remember, that if the rioters get hold of you, they will try to kill you.

[timex]

Well timex you are in fact wrong. Most aircrew were given at least a few opportunities to go out on patrol in South Armagh. Trust me this is NOT a pleasant experience but nowhere near like being shot at, petrol bombed etc. Even although NIBAT1 was a nasty place its not as bad as Iraq. Believe me, even now i wouldnt want to go on patrol in NI, never mind Iraq.

Well I can honestly say I never saw or took any aircrew out on any patrols, I also never dropped off any aircrew on patrols either. As for being shot at, you are right it's not nice, neither is being Mortared, Machine gunned or Shelled, and its even worse when it starts raining. As for going on patrol, if you 've not done it then how can you comment or say I'm wrong.

As I said "walk a mile in their shoes"

[Pierre Argh]

TM said (someway back)... We're talking about people that throw bricks, fire bombs, deliver suicide bombs, and saw-off people's heads. They ain't worth tuppence and advoactes treating people in a way they "understand". Two points:

If you really believe "they ain't worth tuppence" then by acting in a similar manner are you not devaluing yourself?

If our troops can remain calm they retain control, it seems such attacks are designed to provoke a reaction... if our troops do react then they've lost. End of...

What next, shades of the Indian Mutiny, and rioting crowds being machine gunned... I thought we'd moved on a bit over the last 100-150yrs and learned a few lessons, maybe not as many as I thought?

[charliegolf]

Timex:

Your "Walk a mile" rationalisation is spurious. It's a pragmatic justification for having 'our boys' act like their boys 'cos we're the good guys.

I refuse to walk a mile in the shoes of :

Ossy Bin Liner
Gerry Adams
Hammas
July 7th 'heroes'.

What they do is cowardly and wrong.

What the Basra boys did is too.

As an aside thousands and thousands more Iraqi innnocents have had to scrape up and bury their own than in the NI parallel you propose.

CG

I am aware of many crewmen who went out of BBK and XMG on patrol- it was reasonably common. I didn't.

[timex]

Your "Walk a mile" rationalisation is spurious. It's a pragmatic justification for having 'our boys' act like their boys 'cos we're the good guys.


We'll just have to agree to disagree then, remember 1 patrol in your whole life isn't quite the same as one every day for 6 months..I Don't condone what happened but I can understand why. Which is the point I was trying to make.


As an aside thousands and thousands more Iraqi innnocents have had to scrape up and bury their own than in the NI parallel you propose.


Yes they have, again the point being made was the up close and personal violence suffered by the guys.

I am aware of many crewmen who went out of BBK and XMG on patrol- it was reasonably common. I didn't.

I was n't and never saw any, either on the ground or later in aviation

[Tim McLelland]

Pierre, I understand your point but I just don't agree with it.
To get wrapped-up in worries about whether we take the moral high ground, or if we provoke reaction, or if we do this or do that, is pointless. In the final analysis, these people deal in muders, missile throwing and heaven-knows what else, all in the name of some rubbish that is spouted from a book. They're entirely welcome to do that in their own country, but to worry about how we deal with them is to credit them with more value than they're worth. If our troops are being hit by bricks then grab 'em and beat 'em, by all means. It's the only kind of rough justice that thugs understand.
The way I see it is this; our troops, airmen and sailors are commtted to our armed forces, who are, in turn, committed to the defence of this country. Exactly what they're doing in Iraq or anywhere else is questionable. Their presence isn't going to stop so much as one placard being displayed in England, never mind a terrorist attack, so they're patently being used merely for the agendas of our polticians, who certainly never asked us if we wanted to send troops out there in the first place. So why on earth should they sit on their hands and get injured or killed, just to bolster Tony Blair's image? What must the poor parents of the killed soldeirs feel like? Your son's just been killed for, er... the defence of the United Kingdom? Bullsh*t, he's been killed because Tony Blair wanted to go on a crusade.
We advocated the bombing or Iraq because we were told that they posessed weapons of mass destruction which (theoretically) could threaten the UK. Well fine - bomb Saddam Hussein's government out of existence but then just get the hell out of there - what happens to Iraq after that, frankly, just isn't our problem, and it still isn't. We should try taking care of our own country instead of wasting money and lives trying to bring civilisation to nations that traditionally behave like animals.
As I've said before, the future of any of these countries isn't worth the life of even one British soldier.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Of course, Journos are saints aren't they?

Perhaps not. See this from ARRSE (http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=32495.html).

[FormerFlake]

Of course only the good guys have to play be the rules.

And only the military have to be honest and truthfull in press reports/statements.

Yet, for example, the press happily forget that Saddam Hussein deliberately hid/placed things like military HQs, AAA, SAMs etc in highly populate areas when they talk about collateral damage. Any civillian death or injury is purely the UK/US military's fault.

Or when they talk about all the military equipment we sold Iraq, like Migs, Mirages, SA7, Scuds and AK47s. They forget the British didn't even make them. Now if they mentioned the Hawker Hunters we sold them, fair enough, guilty as charged M'Lord.

[Stafford]

Lucky they didn't still have the Hunters, they'd have malletted us ! :}

[Pierre Argh]

I think the saying is "Two Wrongs don't make a Right"?

[SubdiFuge]

Timex

Hts Good is correct in what he says about RAF SH crews going on patrol. I did 2, one in ETB and the other around Aldergrove with the RAF Regt.

[XV277]

This would not be such big news if it wasn't for the actions of the Americans in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo - the more feverish elements in the press have been digging for a 'British Abu Grhaib' for a long time.

It's interesting to note that:(a) the NOTW said it has had this video for 'sometime' and (b) they paid their source for it. The latter IMO simply encourages others.

[timex]

Hts Good is correct in what he says about RAF SH crews going on patrol. I did 2, one in ETB and the other around Aldergrove with the RAF Regt.

I don't doubt you and others did, but how many contacts did you have, how many times were you mortared or shelled? The point being made is that unless you've done what these guys have done or been through it, you really cannot make fair comment.

Sorry to say it but once again people with NO real knowledge of a Soldiers job and the stresses involved are passing judgement.