Pipe dreams versus common sense

[Aviation widow]

Will someone please help me?

My husband has illusions of joining an airline. It is ALL he wants to do. He is currently instructing and hates it. He has 3500 hours in total. We look at application forms for different airlines and other flying jobs and he does not meet the requirements. He is 39 years old. Lacks multi hours etc.

The problem is he is not prepared to do anything else. No other flying job nor any other career. He will not move to the outback to work as he thinks it is beneath him. He is an excellent instructor and highly regarded but HATES everything about it and the mentality of his students.

He wants to quit but he has no other plans to pursue any other career.

I have supported him for years. I will move to anywhere he needs to go. I just want him to be happy. But the hard facts of life are he needs to work so we can live.

So, do you guys think there is any chance of him getting into an airline? Do I persevere a few more years while he chases that and let him just quit and be a bum until that happens? As he will not do anything else.

Or am I wrong to think someoen with 50 hours multi will not get into an airline? If I am wrong I will admit it but I just don't want him to waste 8 more years of his life trying to achieve a pipe dream.

Please, your advice is appreciated?

Maybe your realistic opinions will make him take notice. If I am still alive that is, he may killme if he works out I wrote this on here.

Aviation Widow

[Keg]

It's going to take an extreme shortage of pilots before a 39 year old with just 50 hours multi will be considered 'competitive'. The short version is that he isn't competitive with so few multi.

I don't know your husband and so it's hard to make a definitive call on this but someone who isn't prepared to move for twin time because it's 'beneath him' is going to struggle to get through the various hurdles that the airlines put up. The psych test in QF case or just the interview process in another case. It probably WILL come up at interview and if they even get the hint that he 'couldn't be bothered' or life was too good where he was and he didn't care for the twin hours then he can kiss goodbye the desire to work for that particular airline.

I hope that helps but I suspect it won't! :(

[HEALY]

Assuming he is a Grade 1 and 50 hours twin there is a potential to get Twin Training approval and fly for one of the many large Airline training establishments (found in Capital Cities) to get that ellusive twin time.

[tinpis]

Keg gotta job.
Anythings possible. :}

[Keg]

Keg gotta job.
Anythings possible. :}

Too right! It probably proves the point that you CAN train anyone to be a aviator! :}

[Transition Layer]

It's going to take an extreme shortage of pilots before a 39 year old with just 50 hours multi will be considered 'competitive

Probably still a few more multi hours than you had when you joined an airline Keg? :p :p

TL :ok:

[MBA747]

Prior to 89 & the big airline dispute 27&26 years of age were the cut off's for the Domestics. Although that has changed, airlines look at age versus experience. At 39 years of age unless you or your husband have some very good contacts the chance of him making the airlines in Oz is negligible.

Remember, there are pilots out there starting to fly at 16 and would have those quals & more by 26. Even if he has loads of twin time it doesen't make any difference. Airlines want preferably young guys who have already proved themselves in GA & who they can then train their way.

If an individual has too much experience and too many set habits your on the outer. There are pilots out there who have lots of Jet time on analog flight decks & who have had trouble converting to EFIS, FMS & highly automated flight decks.

He must have started learning to fly fairly late.In Oz at best he would make the regionals & would prob have to wait 6 years for a command. If he has an EU passport there is hope, but then he would have to go to the UK or Europe & resit all his flying exams. Those exams are a lot more demanding then the exams in Oz and would be quite costly.

[THE CONTRACTOR]

I am led to believe that tinpis4 is off to 76 school with only a handful of duchess time and wad full of cash. He maybe taking a few select few with him.

[tinpis]

Edited: Heehee who the fcuk wrote that?

[Keg]

Probably still a few more multi hours than you had when you joined an airline Keg? :p :p
TL :ok:

82.5 :p :E

[4Greens]

India and China are desperately short of pilots - this will get worse over the next few years. There would be opportunities for expats. But get some more multi time.

[The Bunglerat]

Experience solely as an Instructor isn't necessarily a barrier to the airlines (as some on this forum so fervently believe). The company I used to work for lost plenty of senior instructors directly to the airlines (mostly to QF, although Cathay and VB certainly gobbled up quite a few as well), and their continual poaching of staff to this day obviously reinforces the fact that they are quite happy with the product they're getting.

Nevertheless, it's the quality/nature of instructing that is a big factor. If your husband has spent his entire career dealing with the recreational/aero club mentality, no wonder he's over it. I certainly don't wish to offend the keen private pilot who may be reading this, but there comes a point in any professional pilot's career (and Instructors ARE professionals, again disputing what some people on this forum would have you believe), where another hour of circuits in a pissy little underpowered C152 with Joe Public on a Sunday arvo is simply more than one can bear, and it's all you can do to stop yourself from strangling your student or having a psychotic break. And 3000hrs, if it's been logged flying circuits in nothing other than a C152 (or similar class aeroplane) doesn't count for much of anything - on this point I agree entirely with those who feel instructing is a waste of time with regard to career development.

On the other hand, if you're fortunate enough to align yourself with a school that has close ties with airlines (through cadet programmes for example), an Instructor can gain invaluable experience that will make him so much more attractive to such employers. With multi-engine training approval, the twin hours start to accumulate rapidly, as does the IFR experience too. Some might argue that it's still not the real deal, because the student is the handling pilot for most of the operation. However, in my years as an IFR Instructor, I had plenty of opportunities to maintain and develop my own handling skills, through demonstration of various sequences, and in some instances having to take over because the student simply couldn't cut it. Any IFR pilot has to maintain a heightened level of situational awareness, but it is even more so in the case of the Instructor, because not only does he have to keep track of all the "big picture" issues such as ATC communications, traffic, aircraft position, etc - he also has to watch the student like a hawk at all times, in order to make sure he's doing what he's supposed to do as well. Talk about having to have eyes in the back of your head - and both sides too!!! Then throw into the mix the fact that sometimes the student doesn't speak English too well, and I defy anyone to prove to me that experience in this type of instructing does not hone a pilot's skills to make the transition to airline ops. In addition to all of the aforementioned, I was also fortunate to become involved in multi-crew training programs for a client airline. Granted, the courses were all conducted in the sim rather than real jets, but the workload involved in managing two inexperienced cadets travelling at 450kts+, whilst dealing with various non-normal events and having to teamwork through the problem until reaching a satisfactory outcome - provided me with the kind of experience that I couldn't possibly be better prepared for an airline career if I tried. Nevertheless I digress...

The point I'm making is: There's instructing, and then there's instructing. Whilst not commonplace, it's not unheard of for guys in their 40's to get into the airlines, major or regional. But the phrase your husband is going to have to get used to hearing is "experience commensurate with age." With this in mind, he is going to have to take a hard look at where he is, where he wants to be, and how he's going to get there. He needs to build up his multi hours ASAP, and if the school he works for doesn't provide an opportunity to develop his instructing experience in the areas I've mentioned, he will have to get out of there ASAP and find a school that will provide it (assuming he's deadset on staying in the big city and working his way through the instructing route).

If, after weighing up all these considerations, he still doesn't want to make the necessary choices to enhance his prospects, well... I am a firm believer that we all end up where we're supposed to be - it's simply a question of what road we follow in order to get there. If he wants it badly enough, it may happen. Or maybe he just likes to talk the talk, but not the walk.

[Ando1Bar]

4Greens, good idea but if he doesn't want to move into a regional centre he probably doesn't want to move to India or China.

[Centaurus]

4Greens. Asian airlines want captains who are already qualified on type. They already have thousands of their own CPL's ready to be copilots.
Aviation Widow. With your husband's relatively low experience v age he needs to accept that without impeccable contacts within an airline he has no hope of breaking into a decent airline in Australia.

He also needs to get a dose of reality and not forget the effect he is having on his concerned and obviously loving wife who is being driven up the wall by his blind refusal to accept the facts of life in aviation. He is bloody lucky to have a flying job at all and should be grateful for that. If he hates instructing then before he destroys his students morale (they can pick a bitching instructor a mile away) he should take a long hard look at himself. There are many fine experienced flying instructors out there who are much loved by their students and who in many cases form life long friendships with them.

We can't all be FA 18 pilots, or highly paid airline pilots or more highly paid surgeons. A good flying instructor will attract many students and to watch those students improve each day under the expert tuition of your husband must give him a real buzz. If he hates the job, then he should leave the profession for something more satisfying like driving a taxi if he has no other skills.

[Achmed.Hadish Moheem]

Woman!!!

Get off the internet and let me run my own career!!


Achmed Aruck Hadish Moheem,
Pilot, Justice Consultant and part time Goat Herder

[Bort Simpson]

So Achmed, we are waiting to hear from you. What are your thoughts on the issues raised? Some positive, some discouraging.

I myself knew of an instructor at my flying school who at 36 finally got a job with Qantaslink/Easterairlines as a FO flying Dash 8s. So it is possible However, as one writer mentioned it may come down to the quality of your instructional experience. This guy was a grade one, IFR twin training endorsed who happened to get a small amount of experience on a westwind. He went up north to get it but is now back in the big smoke.

Sometimes a step sideways in a career leads you to the open door.

Food for thought.

[100% Ng]

I recently got an Airline job with 38 hrs multi engine and 40 hrs instrument time so anything is possible. You'll never know if you never have a go.

[Capt Fathom]

100%Ng ... What Airline was that?

[100% Ng]

Cathay Pacific

[DirectAnywhere]

AW, it's tough competing with a mistress - especially one that plays as dirty as aviation.

3500 hours is ok. The problem is obviously his multi for most of the regionals, RFDS etc.

Has he applied to QF and other airlines? QF looks for 500 PIC with no multi requiremet. Cathay wants 1000 hours with preference for multi. There are jobs out there for multi - he's just got to find them. However, that's not easy with a young family (?) particularly if you have to look at moving from major capital cities and family support.

Some employers may prefer an older pilot with a family because they're less likely to move on as they know of the ties that bind someone with a young family.

Someone has already suggested getting a ME Training Approval and trying to increase his multi hours that way.

In short, you're up against it with his age/experience profile but it's not out of the question. It fundamentally comes own to his attitude and how far you're willing to go to support his dream. If he hates instrucing and isn't willing to move for multi, it makes things harder.

I wish you well and hope you make a decision that benefits you both.

[Merlins Magic]

Have a good look at NZ.

Plenty of light twin opportunities as well as regional airline opportunities that don't necessarily require ME Command experience, that are based in the larger cities. They also have a strange rule (If anyone can confirm how it works would be appreciated), that as an FO, you can still log sectors flown as the flying pilot as command (or ICUS or something).

It will still require a move but at least it will be to a major city.

MM

[bushy]

Funny, the kiwi's don't seem to know about all those good jobs.