Shipwreck Ark Royal

[Navaleye]

BBC1 is running a programme called Shipwreck Ark Royal on Sunday at 8pm. The first public pictures of the 1941 wreck. Should be good viewing!

[OverTq]

Think I'll go and paint the garage door and sit and watch it dry.

[Navaleye]

Glad to see you have great respect for airmen that flew off her decks interviewed in the programme. One of whom took part in the Bismarck attack.

[Data-Lynx]

Twill be interesting to see if they include the counter-flooding lesson. We will never really know if it would have worked and she could have made Gib

[SASless]

http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Ships/Arkroyal_sinking13_11_1941.jpg


http://www.edgetech.com/pdf/Hydro2004

[Kitbag]

The greatest respect to anyone who flys from a moving football field or two. Their faith that they could recover, often in crummy conditions (and maybe battle damaged) is truly amazing. These gentlemen, both commisioned and non commisioned do truly deserve our respect. They certainly have mine.

[Jackonicko]

Though they expended a great deal of explosive against them, I don't recall the Luftwaffe ever sending Luqa, Hal Far or Ta Kali to the bottom of the Med......:p

[Navaleye]

Jacko, utter nonense - you should know better! A quick check of your history books should tell you that when all of the maltese airfields were sans aircraft, it was the the RN (+Ranger) that kept them going and replaced them when they were hors de combat. Shame on you! Yeah we get the joke:zzz:

[BEagle]

Should be a good programme!

And a welcome break from the BBC's obsession with sport.

Winter Olympics - now there's a good reason to paint the garage door!

[Gainesy]

As my garage door is made by Wastelands, I'm afraid another coat of paint might exceed its ability to open.:(

[Magic Mushroom]

Navaleye,
I have just completed study on the Maltese campaign as part of an MA and the Maltese campaign's eventual success was down to many things, most definitely NOT just the RN. In order of precedence, I'd suggest:

1. Jointery. Remember that RAF Marylands did the pre-strike recce for the Taranto raid (something that the FAA always make a point of acknowledging at Taranto Night Dinners) and ASV equipped Wellingtons supported later RN and RAF ASuW ops. The RAF also conducted extensive intruder, bombing and some Special Ops against Sicily and the Italian mainland. As you say, the RN contributed by ensuring that supplies and many aircraft were delivered via the carriers. They also diverted Luftwaffe and Italian attention from Malta on several occasions via surface actions. The Army provided AAA and made a huge contribution by connecting all the airfields with miles of taxiways and producing blast pens, quite aside from the huge impact of the N African campaign.

2. Logistics: again a joint RAF/RN effort. The RN submarine Magic Carpet service and convoys aggressively defended by RAF fighters against huge odds.

3. Innovative support by the civilian/military authorities to ensure that the population (just) avoided starvation.

4. Churchill's intervention to ensure that we got the USS Wasp's support.

5. Ultra intelligence.

6. Finally, it was as much Britain winning the campaign as Hitler losing it by failing to invade the island against the advice of Kesselring and others, and when Malta was there for the taking in 1942. Ultimately, that cost him both Malta and N Africa.

So please do not suggest that the RN won Malta. :mad:

Regards,
MM

[Wrathmonk]

MM

But wasn't your essay marked as a 'fail', or was it a 'narrow fail', for lack of a structured analysis:yuk: !

Maybe it was Cdr HH that marked it!!!!

:E

[LXGB]

Thanks for the heads-up Navaleye, looks interesting.

Cut & pasted from the BBC website...

"Shipwreck Ark Royal
Sun 12 Feb, 8:00 pm - 9:00 pm 60mins

The Ark Royal was sunk by a German torpedo in WWII and lost for over 60 years. After three years of searching, the aircraft carrier has been found and veterans who served on her will be the first to see the wreck a kilometre below the surface of the Mediterranean. They recall the events that led to the Ark achieving legendary status - the deadly convoys to Malta, and the sinking of the Bismarck when planes from Ark Royal crippled the German battleship. [S]"

Cheers,
LXGB

[WE Branch Fanatic]

But............would the convoys (eg Pedastal have got through without carriers, and their fighters?

Operation Pedestal: Saving Malta (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2289714.stm)

OPERATION PEDESTAL (http://maltaconvoyaug42.freewebspace.com/)

[Tourist]

WEBF, I can see where you are going with this...........just don't.
Please leave it.

[SASless]

What about the Citizens of Malta....seems they should at least get an Honorable Mention in that long list of British Daring Do!

[Magic Mushroom]

Wrathmonk,
Cheeky B*gger! Luckily it wasn't said Cdr who marked it and for the record, I got a good!!

WEBF,
GET A LIFE. The vast majority of convoys involved in the Malta convoys were not escorted by carriers. A lot happened before Pedestal.

MM

[Oggin Aviator]

I have just completed study on the Maltese campaign as part of an MA at the center of PFI excellence in Wiltshire perchance??
Oggin

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Tourist - Wasn't going anywhere with it actually, except to ask how they coped with that for six years end?

MM - Must apolegise, never having studied it.

[Navaleye]

MM,

I didn't try imply that the RN won the battle and I agree with you that it was a real purple effort. The RN (+ Ranger) did keep the island supplied with fighters when there was no other means to do so. One of the most interesting personalities of the time was the British Govenor (General Dobbie). A member of the Plymouth Bretheren. About as far to the right of protestantism as you can get (so much so that they didn't believe in priests) and govenor of a Catholic island.

[timex]

What about the Citizens of Malta....seems they should at least get an Honorable Mention in that long list of British Daring Do!

That's why it's called Malta G.C.

very good programme though.

[forget]

Sasless, It's derring-do, not daring do. Don't ask why, it just is.

[Widger]

Navaleye,

There is absolutely no need to apologise to Magic Mushroom. He stated that the RN always mentions the RAF's assistance with Taranto, it is a shame that the crabs NEVER mention the FAA's assistance with the Battle of Britain. Apparently it was a few hundred non-commissioned airmen and a couple of poles that won it!


:E :E

[Magic Mushroom]

Excellent and very moving prog. Must have been particularly memorable for the gunner who got to see his old turret and optical sight.

Widger,
If you trawl through this site and others, you'll find I've acknowledged the FAA pilots and sqns (although the Fulmars up North didn't get involved in the main actions) involved in the BoB several times.

Regards,
MM

[Fanois]

Not to mention the Swordfish pilot who was afforded the opportunity to 'land' at -3000ft amsl!

[Tiger_mate]

There was a quick one liner along the lines of:

Upon return the Captain was Court Marshalled:

Without any elaboration:

You are charged with putting your vessel in front of a Nazi torpedo and allowing the vessel to sink due to one tugboat got lost thus making max speed 1 wave forward and 2 waves back. WTF is all that about? Was he found guilty? and if so upon what charge?

Either way, I would have liked to see more sub aqua footage and a bit less history lesson, but it was fair sunday night viewing. A more memorable comment was trying to picture:

About to take off, the deck pitching up hill and down dale and the water coming over the bow............jeeeeez: RESPECT:ok:

[doubledolphins]

Captain loses ship, court martial follows. Just as night follows day. Guilt is not presumed. Just the way the Albert has always done things. Outstanding programe. Must admit all I had read about it was written less than thirty years after the event. So had no idea about the tugs cock up. I supose she wasn't taken in tow by a destroyer because of the risk of loosing her as well. It would seem that the DC organisation was pretty good and perhaps she may have been saved by better shoring up of bulkheads.
What we can conclude is the Ark played a large part in bringing about the end of the (line of)Battle Ship and that her own fate advanced the supremacy of the submarine. All skimmers are targets.
Futhermore, Jacko, just remember that today the RN submarine service could make life on any enemy airfield much more uncomfortable than a couple of Vulcans did in 1982.

[Navaleye]

Captain loses ship, court martial follows. Just as night follows day.

That's not strictly true. It depends on the circumstances and the findings of the BOI. Alan West did not go to CM for example.

[doubledolphins]

But that was in 1982 and Ardent was lost as a direct result of enemy action. Ark Royal's loss needed investigation (the traditional method being court martial) to establish if she could have been saved. I seem to recall that court martials were convened in 1946 over the losses of Prince of Wales and Repulse, once the remaining survivors had been brought home from the POW (no pun intended) camps.

[Chairborne 09.00hrs]

I would have liked to see more sub aqua footage and a bit less history lesson

Sorry, TM, but my opinion is exactly the opposite of yours!

Did you see the one that followed it on BBC4?

[Magic Mushroom]

Oh for crying out loud DD, please do not turn this thread into yet another inter service bitch fest.

It is hardly valid comparing modern TLAM capabilities with a 1950s technology Vulcan, using 1950s technology radar to drop 1940s technology weapons!

TLAM is an excellent weapon and is a major offensive asset for the UK. However, it also has limitations and I'm not convinced that we'd be willing to use 21 TLAM several times against an airfield.

In the meantime, let's just acknowledge the bravery of the guys involved in such ops from whatever their service.

Regards,
MM

[WE Branch Fanatic]

It seems unfair that Captains who lost there commands were automatically Court Martialled.

Widger the FAA are menioned in the credits of the film Battle of Britain, and also on the Roll of Honour (http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/roll.html) on the Battle of Britain section of the RAF website.

[Widger]

WEBF,

you keep out of this, you have your very own pi$$ing match on another thread....I'm trying to create my own here!


:E :E :E :E :E

[doubledolphins]

MM, keep your cap on! Only trying to get back at Jackowatshisname. Any one who truly believes that we only need only carrier bourne aircraft is as mad as any one who believes that we only need land based ones. I hope no one currently serving would disagree.

The future is bright and Purple!

[SASless]

Forget,

Very similar to "ring dang do" too I bet.

[Navaleye]

Look, for the last time, Courts Martial is NOT automatic. If the subsequent BoI determines that their is a case to be answered, then it goes to CM. From memory (and I may be wrong here) Captain Maund was cleared and DC procedures where learned and tightened up. If any ship's command should have gone through a CM it was Sheffield, but nothing was done. Also what about endangering one's aircraft by making multiple passes over the same target and then getting shot down? It's happened, not all that long ago and again, nothing was done.

[WhiteOvies]

Anyone (WEBF/Navaleye) know if the skipper of the destroyer got any award for putting his ship alongside when there was a known U boat threat in the area? Seem to think this was not common practice, particularly during Battle for Atlantic? :8 Hats off to the aircrew for launching in such gash weather, not seen in recent years! ;) (luckily)
Having been to several Taranto/BoB do's a token mention for the 'other services' contribution is usually made and is well received by attending members of said 'other service'.
Where would we be without the banter?

[Navaleye]

No I don't sorry. The destroyer was HMS Legion. It was not exactly medal material however. In a similar situation in the Pacific during the Battle of Midway, the Captain of the destroyer USS Haman put himself alongside the crippled USS Yorktown, only to have a his ship blown in half when a Japanese submarine came to finish the Yorktown off.

[polyglory]

I thoroughly enjoyed the program and to see the former crew members faces, made it all for me.

[HEDP]

My 'old man' got off the said boat eight weeks before she went down having been a gunner on board. Was re-drafted further into the med. Wasn't with him to watch the program but spoke to him just afterwards and bugger me if I wasn't getting choked just giving him a good listening to.

Top program and and it certainly provoked some memories for him,

HEDP

[cornwallis]

The Ark programme showed an excerpt from a black and white film featuring the ship-good patriotic stuff.Unfortunately i didnt record it and have forgotten the name of said film.Help please

[Navaleye]

"Ships with Wings" :p

[cornwallis]

Thank you for the info is it available on vhs/dvd?

[Navaleye]

Cornwallis,

Not my business, but I'm sure it was all true ! :rolleyes:

This is best pointer I can give you is

here (http://www.screenonline.org.uk/film/id/801362/)

Best wishes

Navaleye