Basic atc

[dontpressthat]

As the owner of a PPL gained in the us my atc skills are somewhat slack and I have a couple of Q's that im sure somebody could either answer or point me in the direction of a suitable website.

On contact with FIS controller, e.g. brize radar.. can he/she give me zone transit clearance or do i need to talk to a different cont.. e.g. brize zone?

With the various types of service available.. (info/a-g/radar) etc etc, whats the best way to determine the type of service at an A/D and how to address on first contact?

These may seem like daft questions but ive spent to many hours sightseeing and cloud chopping over last 12months and not enough constructive flying and with the cpl rapidly approaching its time to play propperly.

cheers DPT

[AerBabe]

With the various types of service available.. (info/a-g/radar) etc etc, whats the best way to determine the type of service at an A/D and how to address on first contact?

Look it up in Pooleys or the CAA AIP (AD) ... AD = Aerodrome.

If the airfield doesn't appear in either of the above, it's either non-radio or air-ground.
If it's A/G, they'll be, for example, "North Weald Radio"
If it's FISO, they'll be, for example, "Duxford Information"
If it's full ATC, it varies. It may be Radar/Approach etc.

Generally, your first contact should be:
"(Station you're calling), this is G-BLAH, request (what you want)"
They'll then reply, asking what they need to know. Don't pass all your details on the first transmission!

[J.A.F.O.]

Or, if you don't know, then "Duxford, good afternoon, G-BLAH."

But you won't find that in CAP 413, which is at

www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.PDF

and it'll tell you how to really do it.

The main thing with zone transits is DO NOT assume that you have one just because you're getting a FIS, RAS or whatever from the unit.

[dontpressthat]

Cherrs aerbabe and jafo..
Very helpfull comments from you both.. I guess its just practice then. Its a bit daunting after the relaxed atmos in the states, but I try to use atc when x-ctry as much as poss these days.

DPT

[AerBabe]

Why don't you spend a few hours with the people working your local ATS? Try both the tower at your home field and those at the places you visit most often.

[dontpressthat]

sounds like a good plan aerbabe... The atco gang at my local are a cheerfull bunch so might have to give them shout.

DPT

[J.A.F.O.]

AB

I just checked and there is a G-BLAH.

[dontpressthat]

Nice work jafo..
G-BLAH, sounds like it ought to have something to do with the CAA.

[AerBabe]

JAFO - Somehow, that doesn't surprise me! :ok:

[Whopity]

"With the various types of service available.. (info/a-g/radar) etc etc, whats the best way to determine the type of service at an A/D and how to address on first contact?"

Presumably you left the US with a RT Licence; The test there is no different to here, and those are essential things you need to know to pass the test!

Could I suggest you go to one of the few instructors offering RT Training, then you will have the opportunity to see what you should have covered already.

[dontpressthat]

whopity

Granted, the test is the same as the uk but depending on where you've flown in the US the RT experience is limited. When I did my PPL most fields I visited were uncontrolled and very quiet.
There was no such thing as FIS and if daytona could actually be botherd to help all they would offer was a very limited 'flight following'
I obviously have an RT licence and have 130+ hrs in my book but as I said, most of that is just cloud chopping in the local area and very little x-country etc.
I only asked the question as I was looking for some advise before I go fumbling into an FIR unannounced or call the wrong station for the wrong service and waste their time and mine.
My use of RT is perfectly ok, its just nice and i would suggest, prudent to check things before you dive in head first.

I do however appreciate your comments and an instructor at my local will be my first port of call.

DPT

[mcgoo]

whopity
Granted, the test is the same as the uk but depending on where you've flown in the US the RT experience is limited. There was no such thing as FIS and if daytona could actually be botherd to help all they would offer was a very limited 'flight following'
DPT

i trained near daytona and found the RT overwhelming at first because its controlled airspace around there, my instructor had me doing the radio calls from my second hour so it was very difficult at first but worthwhile, i found daytona always helpful, very busy and sometimes difficult but you have to remember its a very busy airport and surrounded by flight schools all with students after the same thing and what were you expecting from the flight following when you say it was "very limited", they give you traffic avoidance, vectors around busy areas, what were you after?

[dontpressthat]

I wish i hadnt asked now!!!

My experience of flight training in the states was clearly very different to everybody else's then?
Yes Daytona are busy, yes they offer vector service and can indeed be very helpfull etc, BUT when I was there (feb/mar 01) 90% of the time when asking for 'flight following' I was asked to remain clear and continue with own nav.

The point I was trying to get accross was that the airspace and RT in that particular area of florida (nth of daytona) was a lot more slack than where I currently fly (south east uk) and anybody who believes a similarity can be drawn between London TMA and the wilderness of the florida outback is either grandly deluded or just looking for an argument.

My questions in the original posting were kindly answered by a couple of helpfull ppruners and I am gratefull for that. To those who seem to want to pick holes in my thread, complicate things or simply belittle an inexpierienced pilot, I hope nobody asks you for advice in the future.

I thank you!! end of!

[mcgoo]

blimey, spit your dummy out!, i can't see how anyones tried to belittle you, i am a very inexperienced pilot so wouldn't call others but you didn't mention in your original post that you went out to florida in mar 01, since then a lot of the airfields are controlled, new towers etc, so it's hardly "slack out there"!

[dontpressthat]

The dummy is out but toys still in pram...!! :D
No offence intended mcgoo, Just got a bit narkt by a previous remark about my RT which got my back up a bit.
DPT

[mcgoo]

:ok: no worries mate!

[J.A.F.O.]

Don't blame you mate.

I'd have spit dummy, thrown teddy, pillow, blankets and bottle.

You asked a reasonable question and deserved reasonable answers.

[dontpressthat]

HAHAHA....I like that jafo!!
Sounds like a full on hissy fit, Bit like the state I was in when studying atpl's, complete soft furnishing carnage some days!

DPT

[Paris Dakar]

dontpressthat,

If you are going to meet the ATCOs in your area, how about inviting one of them up with you for a flight? You agree to pay for the flying - and they can buy the coffees or butties. Could be the best hour's info seeking you can get :ok:

Once you've flown a few hours over here, you'll be sorted - it will then be trying to get used to the US way, should you decide to go back there.

Incidentally, I only ever managed to get flight following from Daytona Beach on a handful of attempts, as they were always too busy :ooh:

Best wishes

PD

[dontpressthat]

I Like yr thinking PD, may well give that a bash... could be good learner and always nice to have somebody in the spare seat, also saves tuning the adf to talk sport and getting side tracked by the prem results. (as if i would)

Glad to hear somebody had the same experience with daytona... thought it was just me.

DPT

[Piltdown Man]

Simple stuff: Callsigns ending in "Radio" or "Information" don't give clearances. They may be able to get you one (via the telephone etc.), but the person you are speaking to can't give one. Those called "Tower", "Approach", "Control", "Radar", "Director" are able to give you clearances, but normally only through their "Manor". To get a clearance, just ask for one. If they can't supply, they'll know someone who can and will normally pass you on to that person or get it for you. And when they supply it, read it back. What do you call them on first contact? Their full name should be on the piece of paper with the frequency on. All can give FIS, but it's the last four above who give you the RIS/RAS and Control (if that is a service).

Have fun.

[dontpressthat]

Cheers piltdown.. Appreciate that, very helpfull matey:ok:

[aluminium persuader]

Here y'go...

xxx radio - air/ground
xxx information - AFISO
xxx ground - ground movements controller (usually only at busier airports)
xxx tower - aerodrome control, ATC, in the visual control room
xxx approach - procedural approach control, ie non-radar (civil), approach radar (mil)
xxx radar - approach radar
xxx control - en-route centre (unlikely to use this unless you're airways/crossing airways traffic)


Remember, when we hear you call, we have to grab a fresh flight progress strip (the things we write everything n - one for each a/c) and start writing your details as you're speaking. We may be very busy, and using more than one freq, so

1. Select freq, then listen for a mo for a suitable point at which to call.
2. Make initial call brief, ie "xxx radar, G-BLAH"
3. You will get back "G-BLAH, xxx radar, pass your message
4. Go back with "xxx radar, G-BLAH is a xxx from EGaa to EGbb (airfield names are fine) maintaining xxx ft on 10xxmb, position, request (type of service)"

We don't need to know if you're u/t, solo navex, low hours etc, though we can often tell from the sound of your voice. Do tell us, however, as soon as you think you might be experiencing ANY sort of difficulty. We have all sorts of tricks up our sleeves to help extricate you from mire, and we probably won't laugh. Why only probably? If you want a definite, bring doughnuts on your visit!!!

[dontpressthat]

Thanks AP, good to hear from the other side of the box.
I appreciate yr input, it all helps to iron out the wrinkles in my nav/rt.
Ill make sure I keep a good supply of doughnuts or similar sweetened baked goods in the back just incase I make any tiny errors.

Thanks mate:ok:

DPT

[AerBabe]

Remember, when we hear you call, we have to grab a fresh flight progress strip (the things we write everything n - one for each a/c) and start writing your details as you're speaking.

Part of the reason I get as many people into the tower to observe as possible! It's really frustrating when you've not had a call for 30 minutes and suddenly you get:

"Greatairfieldradiothisisgolfbravolimaalphahotelcessna182taxi twoonboardlocalflightsoutheeast"

And then they've finished before you've even written 'G'. :ugh:

[aluminium persuader]

don't I know it! And the news that they're on a navex routing via a,b,c,d,e & f. You.ve filled up your whole route box to find that they've already done a,b,c&d & are 10 mins from home!

Don't worry, guys... we're not getting at you! You keep our lives interesting! (did I really say that?)

ap

:O

[AerBabe]

Hmm ... it's all okay, unless they start to get grumpy when you ask them to say again flight details. :D

[DubTrub]

"Greatairfieldradiothisisgolfbravolimaalphahotelcessna182taxi twoonboardlocalflightsoutheeast"
And then they've finished before you've even written 'G'. :ugh:
Would "Roger" suffice?

[AerBabe]

Technically, yes. But it's all about customer care, innit.

[CherokeeDriver]

dontpressthat

I trained in the West Coast of the USA with an Airport with Ground/Tower/Dispatch and can confirm that UK ATC / RT is wildly different to the more relaxed (Nxxy with Information whatever, at Lake Whatever, Inbound).

Although I came back with the coverted RT license it took me a couple of hours with a FI (who had also flown in the States and assumed I knew nothing) to get the hang of it. It's no big deal - the ATC are really helpful and friendly, and if you cock up don't panic - just concentrate on flying the plane and ask for an explanation. Everyone I spoke to happily gave me more detail, with the caviat that I don't need to be told twice!

Safe Flying, and I'm pleased to know that I'm not the only one who suffered upon my return to UK South Eastern airspace!