Near-miss in the UK, US jet crews criticised [Archive]

Immelmann

9th Feb 2006, 07:27

RevMan2

I think your post is just off the target.

No doubt, the fighter jocks did a line of mistakes. But you can not blame all the military fighter training. (you were asking for improving skills, other than "shoot em up")
There are always better and less good pilots doing mistakes.
Did you go personally go trough military pilot training and airline training?

I did! And I tell you, mistakes are happening, wether military or civil!
Of course they have to be investigated to avoid similar situations!

WHBM

9th Feb 2006, 07:36

' The report was also critical of air traffic control at Lakenheath in Suffolk for a communication failure which "contributed to the subsequent radar identification problems". '

Always remember calling up Lakenheath Radar a few years ago for a service when heading VFR up to Norwich. The US controller just could not handle the fact that I was showing an 800 foot difference on his (doubtless multi-million dollar) display compared to my declared altitude.

We later wondered how he would have coped with incoming Soviet bombers; would he have expected them to call up and ask for a QNH ?

soddim

9th Feb 2006, 09:16

Quite apart from any contravention of rules for flight in controlled airspace, these are fighter aircraft and a properly trained crew should be aware at all times of the proximity of other aircraft - or do they rely solely on AWACs nowadays?

wrongthong

9th Feb 2006, 10:05

I suppose it's too much to hope that they'll have functioning ADS-B transmitters in the future on routine non-sensitive missions!:confused:Give us a chance to miss 'em...rhetorical question, think I know the answer, back to my beer

RevMan2

9th Feb 2006, 11:18

Immelmann

"Did you go personally go trough military pilot training and airline training"

Yes, but is it relevant?

Is it too much to expect high levels of situational awareness and emergency situation management? It's bad enough if one of them starts acting like girl's blouse, but BOTH of them?

About as much use as a chocolate teapot. Or an ashtray on a motorbike. Take your pick.

Immelmann

9th Feb 2006, 12:12

The sooner they make these things pilotless (or start teaching the crews skills other than the "shoot 'em up" kind) the better
My friend, if you had the training, you KNOW that more than "shootin em up" is trained! (do I see a little picking on our NATO colleagues from the big USA???):)
Further, you surely know, that you have sometimes a young chicken at your wing, which relies on the lead in difficult situations!
Well, this happening will have dicziplinary consequences for the pilots, at least for the leader.

H Peacock

9th Feb 2006, 12:20

Well, what a fascinating thread. Some interesting views, but I'm not sure what RevMan2's problem is. I don't know the full details of the incident, but to simply slag off the military is a bit below the belt. Clearly the F15 drivers made an error or 2, but it also appears that the controllers let them down.

I could quote an inordinate number of civil airline blunders caused by inept decision making and or poor piloting ability, (certainly not maintaining '...high levels of situational awareness...' ). If ever there was a case for pilotless aircraft it has to be for the airliners first!

H Peacock

US Herk

9th Feb 2006, 18:38

Not defending the Eagles per se, but reading betwixt the lines a bit, it appears to me they got themselves a bit low on fuel & executed min/emer fuel procedures without declaring a pan (not something in the US vernacular, BTW & paperwork when you must do similar, so most pilots avoid at all costs). Then they relied far too heavily on the "big sky" theory & did what they felt they needed & informed ATC after the fact...not uncommon, really. In this case, however, the big sky got a little small for an unnerving moment.

But surely the BA mate had ACAS, so no worries ;)

...would definitely like to hear the Eagles' side of it before I passed any judgement.

10W

9th Feb 2006, 19:08

But surely the BA mate had ACAS, so no worries

He did. But it only works if the 'intruder' is giving useful transponder information. In this incident there were periods where the F15's transponders were either not selected or not transmitting Mode C data.

Radar data

Civilian air traffic control radar recordings were obtained covering the time of the incident. They show that at 1131 hrs the formation began squawking the emergency Mode A code 7700 with a concurrent Mode C altitude of 16,800 ft. Twenty five seconds later both the Mode A and C squawks disappeared, the last Mode C altitude recorded being 18,500 ft. The Mode A emergency squawk 7700 then reappeared 1 minute and 21 seconds later concurrent with a Mode C altitude of 22,400 ft.

The recordings showed a minimum lateral separation between Tahoe 52 and the Embraer 145 of 0.53 nm and a minimum lateral separation between Tahoe 51 and the Embraer 145 of 1.18 nm. No Mode C altitude information is displayed for either of the military aircraft during this period and it has not been possible to verify the minimum vertical separation.

The full report can be found here:

http://tinyurl.com/ay2us

Capt. Tango

9th Feb 2006, 21:47

Hey Jollyboy, After reading these threads so far... I get the same thing going through my head....just like yours.
Nearest divert.... RAF Valley......???
I know the airspace around Lakenheath quite well and im sure that my first
divert would not be Valley.
For USAF/RAF I might be wrong?

threepointonefour

9th Feb 2006, 22:03

The recordings showed a minimum lateral separation between Tahoe 52 and the Embraer 145 of 0.53 nm and a minimum lateral separation between Tahoe 51 and the Embraer 145 of 1.18 nm.

... they didn't bust the 1000' act bubble, so now worries.

VigilantPilot

9th Feb 2006, 22:05

Perhaps they were keen to sample the Bangor night-life. :}

US Herk

9th Feb 2006, 22:30

But it only works if the 'intruder' is giving useful transponder information. In this incident there were periods where the F15's transponders were either not selected or not transmitting Mode C data.

Well, I can certainly understand #2 not squawking, but lead's should have been on...:confused:

10W

9th Feb 2006, 22:34

.. they didn't bust the 1000' act bubble, so now worries.

Not breaching the 'bubble' solely due to providence and not due to deliberate action by any of the pilots involved is not a safe system with 'now (sic) worries' in my mind. Crossing 'separation' of between 5 and 10 seconds doesn't leave a lot of room if your separation tool is simply luck ;)

The worrying thing from the report as an Air Tragic Controller (assuming the transcripts are correct) was the total lack of readbacks from the F15 pilots to any clearance given, coupled with the ATC agencies not taking steps to get a positive readback. How do you know the pilot has the correct information if the readback is 'Roger' ??

For example (from the report)

''Climb and maintain FL230'' - 'Wilco'

''Maintain FL150, higher with London'' - 'Roger'

''Climb FL310'' - 'Roger Ma'am'

It was no wonder that the F15s didn't go to the levels expected or comply with the co-ordinations agreed by ATC. There was no check made that they understood and would comply.

Please, please, continue to make these guys fly OAT with Mil Radar ... not sure us civvy controllers could handle them without bursting a blood vessel ;)

Out Of Trim

9th Feb 2006, 23:18

I would hazard a guess that, the main problem here - is lack of airspace education given to the US Crews that arrive in the UK.

We have some very crowded and complicated airspace for them to navigate and they obviously need some help here!

It would appear that reading between the lines, that they used to get a thorough briefing from the RAF in years gone by to indicate the differences in UK airspace and how the RIS / RAS effect their flights compared to that they were used to in the USA.

Bring that briefing and education back guys.. It's got to be worthwhile and will help them out!

However, with regard to the latest airmiss; it would appear that there were many links in the chain that lead to a major cock-up.. Lakenheath ATC caused a further problem with the lie about no delay and did not pass full details of squawk and Flt Level restriction from Lon Mil.

When the Flight lead decided to divert he should have positively taken back the Flight lead role and have his wingman understand that and act as a flight and not two singletons / loose flight.

All this time, what were the Wso rear seater crew doing to help? It appears they were just along for the ride! It doesn't appear that they were helping much. Do they not have a role in helping monitor the flight and assist the pilot with Nav etc? Obviously they could be head down and use the F-15Es kit to help the situation.

Finally, was RAF Valley really the nearest suitable diversion airfield for these two aircraft?

Perhaps, with the rapid closure of RAF bases around the country; suitable diversion airfields are becoming very few and far between!

Onan the Clumsy

9th Feb 2006, 23:34

without declaring a pan (not something in the US vernacular, BTW? it is in the civilian world

whowhenwhy

10th Feb 2006, 10:32

From what I remember of the day, Valley was the only airfield south of 55N that was blue. EVERYWHERE else was green or worse, hence Valley as the div.

As far as separation is concerned, opinions differed between the CAT and OAT aircrews as to what the separation was. Vertical separation was unmeasurable as the F15s, for whatever reason, were not transponding. All I'll say is that it caused a few you-know-what's to pucker!

Lots of problems for both aircrew and Lakenheath ATC to think about

US Herk

10th Feb 2006, 19:47

? it is in the civilian world
Mil/Civil ain't the same, of course. Mil uses "precautionary" which has little meaning outside of mil & tend to only use the "E" word as a last resort - because there is always someone second-guessing you, there's paperwork to fill out, lots of attention most line pilots don't want/need & so they are usually very loathe to declare an emergency & get the priority they really need.

These F15 crews, for whatever reason, were in a no-sh*t fuel emergency state & waited too long to declare anything.

As for second guessing their use of Valley as the div, I think that's a bit offside. Typically, the unit will nominate the div based on forecast weather - so the crew walks out with that. They're free to divert elsewhere should real-world requirements dictate, but most will use their primary unless there's a reason not to. I'm sure if the weather was CAVOK, they'd have gone next door to Mildenhall or Marham and not overflown any other suitable field - notice they asked for the WX at Cottesmore and Wittering, but nobody gave it to them...

Yes, lots of errors here, many players, but laying it all at the feet of the crew seems a bit cynical in this case...

Standby!

11th Feb 2006, 09:41

I saw this incident actually occur. The F15s set course for Valley direct after not being able to make their approach at Lakenheath. However, Lakenheath to Valley crosses that large piece of CAS (The Alphas). Whatever went on at LKH ATC is obviously a factor, but the crews tried to cross CAS in the climb to high level without speaking to anyone. It is only (probably) when they had all these contacts (airliners!) on their radar that they called Mil ATC. There are mitigating factors here but surely to attempt to cross a busy piece of airspace in this manner (without speaking to someone) is both poor airmanship and dangerous to not just the crews of the fighters, but other airspace users?

Focks 2

11th Feb 2006, 13:11

Nearest divert.... RAF Valley......???
Whats 'the other side of the country' to us maybe considered 'next door' to someone who's used to the vast expanse of US airspace. :)

SASless

11th Feb 2006, 13:40

Focks....

Depending upon fuel state....it could have felt like it was a very long way!

Hurricane Katrina....which only damaged parts of three states...devastated an area equal to that of all of the UK to put things into perspective.

US Herk

11th Feb 2006, 16:53

...but the crews tried to cross CAS in the climb to high level without speaking to anyone. It is only (probably) when they had all these contacts (airliners!) on their radar that they called Mil ATC. There are mitigating factors here but surely to attempt to cross a busy piece of airspace in this manner (without speaking to someone) is both poor airmanship and dangerous to not just the crews of the fighters, but other airspace users?

Agreed - in principle at least. See my previous - had the F15s done nothing more than squawk emergency, I'm sure ATC would have begun clearing traffic from their path & hopefully avoided this incident.

If they'd have declared a fuel emergency with Lakenheath, they may have been provided priority ahead of the C model...

All second-guessing on my part.

If I recall the day correctly, I was sent to the hold whilst the Eagles were recovered...:(

WorkingHard

11th Feb 2006, 17:42

Could someone be kind enough to tell me why mode C is not mandatory for all military aircraft in the UK. In times of conflict it is clearly different but in peace time it surely would not detract from any training exercise, would it?
Thanks

Tourist

11th Feb 2006, 17:44

Cost, quite simply

WorkingHard

11th Feb 2006, 18:34

Cost?? Sorry I do not understand - what cost? Are not all mil a/c fitted with transponders?

Safety_Helmut

11th Feb 2006, 19:57

This will sound harsh, but having read the AAIB report, I would be concerned about letting these cowboys cross the country in a car, never mind an F15. Let's stop making excuses for them, they came damned close to a mid-air with a passenger jet. There are no valid excuses for what went on, and as for the lack of Mode C/ACAS/TCAS etc, anyone care to ask on what the basis the MoD/USAF etc makes its decisions on this ?

S_H

FJJP

11th Feb 2006, 20:37

The formation lead screwed up by ignoring or re-briefing the initial Bingo call. The Bingo call should have resulted in an instant knock-it-off and rtb.

The Lalenheath ATC was obviously under severe pressure when they recovered.

The SORF screwed up by not more effectively liaising with ATC to sort priorities.

Why did mode C disappear before they entered CAS, only to re-appear after they cleared the airways structure?

Why did they not declare an emergency and squawk 7700 with London when it became clear that London did not know of their parilous fuel state?

Why were the crews not more familiar with British ATC procedures and terminology?

Sounds like a cowboy outfit that lacked a grip in the orginisational front...

If a Britmil crew had screwed up to this extent in the States, the wrath of God would have descended upon them PDQ.

whowhenwhy

12th Feb 2006, 08:24

I should just point out that it was not just mode C that dropped out, it was ALL secondary radar information. Although the report said that they could provide no explanation for it, I'm sorry but there's only two ways you can totally lose that information. Either the transponder broke (for a short period before un-breaking) or it was switched off (accidentally or deliberately). Either way around, without that information, TCAS on the airliner could not work, nor could the short-term conflict alert used by the civil ATCOs. The SSR information re-appeared when the F15 crew offered to squawk emergency.

As far as declaring emergencies are concerned, as US Herk alluded to, declaring emergencies is more of a difficulty for our American cousins than it is for our guys. Once they are on the ground they get put through the wringer about why they did this, that, and the other. Educationally, the message is always put over to them that if they tell people then they'll get priority over everyone. Unfortunately, the education either gets ignored or gets overruled by American aircrew training.

US Herk

12th Feb 2006, 08:45

I'd be willing to bet the loss of transponder was simple confusion on the Eagle's part as they switched back & forth between who was lead, who was squawking, ATC confusion, etc.

Remember, we have the luxury of being sat in front of a glowing phosphor (or LCD if yer more modern:} ) screen, with a cool beverage at hand, & the wife rubbing your shoulders (OK, last one was a bit wishful thinking!:D ) dissecting a written report with nearly all of the facts and able to trade banter and re-attack as we learn more. Our Eagle mates, on the other hand, were probably quite concerned about their fuel state, agitated with ATC, & doing what they thought was the best COA given the situation all whilst doing standard 3D, high-speed mental gymnastics...

Again, no excuses, simplest explanation is usually the most correct...

SASless

12th Feb 2006, 09:14

Westie....relax....Father knows best now!

Take a sweep through the ATC forum now and then and read the comments about Brits in the USA...countered by the Spams in the UK. Seems pilots of any ilk outside their home turf know naught.

Of course we don't know what the back seaters were doing as they say here...Navs being baggage in the Ace's minds. Perhaps they were doing some traffic spotting by radar or something exciting like the NYT Crossword.

FJJP

12th Feb 2006, 09:35

US Herk

I'll accept your hypothesis as the more likely. In all that confusion, nobody got a grip and things could have easily been missed...

PPRuNe Radar

13th Feb 2006, 12:24

If a Britmil crew had screwed up to this extent in the States, the wrath of God would have descended upon them PDQ.

Anecdotal evidence is that US crews screwing up used to have their packed bags awaiting their return on the ramp at USAFE bases if they had screwed up, and a ticket on the next aircraft home. Whether true or not, the inference is that the crews are dealt with robustly. In this case I would also expect appropriate action was also taken.

The US vs UK vs US vs UK willy waving is not relevant for this thread (start another if you want to debate that subject). UK crews screw up, at home and abroad, on occasion. US crews screw up, at home and abroad, on occasion. So it's a draw.

FJJP

13th Feb 2006, 15:10

Well said PPrune Radar.

On Red Flag, the rule was that one bust of Dreamland was the final warning. I know of several US crews who had their bags packed and deposited at the main gate, ready for their overland journey home. Jet was confiscated awaiting collection by the unit concerned [by a different crew]. Not good for careers, I would have thought...

I can't remember if there were any busts by RAF crews.