Air Nelson

[heathmac1]

I her a rumour that Air Nelson is running a ground course next month!! any one know anything about that? What requirements they are looking for?

[haughtney1]

You'll need at least 50hrs of recent NZ flying experience, apparently aeroplanes elsewhere dont fly the same:hmm:

[Cloud Cutter]

The last I heard they would be needing 4-5 to for starts from April. This may be the last of the Saab hiring. Looking at recent recruitment, to be competitive you'll need 1000+ total including near 1000 multi, or 1500 total including 500 multi.

[flying ginge]

Can anybody shed light on;

a) salary for new F.O.s
b) timeline to command
c) likely basings
d) hot hosties:ok:

Thanks

[pilotdude09]

I think i can answer c for you....Nelson, last i heard you were werking out of nelson maybe you can work out of another base

[cjam]

Have calls gone out for interviews?
Or is this ground course for the people interviewed in Dec 05??

[Cloud Cutter]

a) On the Saab: 38,375 or 43,171 with ATPLs (+3.3% in July)
On the Q300: 40,544 or 45,612 (+4.0% in July)
b) Depends on lots of things, min 18 months, probably more like 3 years.
c) I think you'll find Nelson is least likely...
Auckland
New Plymouth
Napier
Wellington
Hamilton and Christchurch in the near future
d) There are a few!:ok:

As far as I know, all interviewed pilots have been ground coursed, with the last to start end of March. So another ground course would mean more interviews.

[IMPGAL]

To be correct on the pay:

On the Saab: 39,641 or 44,596 with ATPLs (+3.3% in July)

Salaries were increased by 3.3% last July, plus another 3.3% this year.

Cheers.

[cjam]

impgal do you know when the saabs will be phased out by?

[AerocatS2A]

What pay does a captain on the Q300 get?

[pungamoose]

Is that 50hr thing for the last 50hrs or in last 12months? Punching holes in Aussies skies at the moment but would like to move back home.

[Cloud Cutter]

The requirement is for '50 hours recent New Zealand IFR time'

IMPGAL

Thanks for the correction. Does that also apply to the Q300 rates I quoted from the CEA?

cjam

I think the fleet replacement is to be completed arround mid 2007? From the sounds of things, they may be keeping a few Saabs online for the short term after that.

[haughtney1]

The requirement is for '50 hours recent New Zealand IFR time'

Cloud, just so Im clear on this....50hrs recent NZ IFR time is because?

1. Flying IFR is different in NZ to anywhere else?
2. Its a requirement to descriminate against oversea's pilots?
3. Its a made up barrier used and excuse to keep out candidates who dont fit the profile?

What other reasons could there be?

[MOR]

Come on haughtney old bean, you know the answer... all the Air Nelson management, being as they are ex-aero club instructors and with their heads firmly up their arses, just can't handle the thought of employing those who have worked for real airlines... scared they might be shown up by those with hard experience in airspace that is actually, you know, busy... or who have flown real aircraft that aren't equipped with propellers.

Having known Mr Inglis since he was working out of a shed in Motueka, it is not hard to understand where the company culture came from. You really don't want to work there...

:rolleyes:

[Cloud Cutter]

haughtney1

We all know that 1 is not true, so that leaves 2 and 3. Other companies don't seem to have problems with pilots who have only flown overseas.

[haughtney1]

Silly me, I shouldnt ask daft questions I guess:p

[glekichi]

"The requirement is for '50 hours recent New Zealand IFR time' "

Its to make sure they can understand the controllers' accents...:}

[haughtney1]

Yeah everytime I come home for a holiday...and potential scouting mission for jobs I cringe!!!!

Plus Im not payin Jetconnect 15k for a Type rating on a 737-300:yuk:

[Cloud Cutter]

You'll just have to wait till they start flying the mighty 757:ok:

Seriously though, if you are willing to go back to turboprops for a couple of years while you wait for Air NZ to pick you up, Mount Cook would be the way to go.

[haughtney1]

757's? where? :}..MOR is gonna jump in shortly and moan about Boeing rubbish...just cos the 146/RJ's are going to the bone yard quicker than an 86 Toyota Corolla.
On the subject of Mt Cook...Ive actually spoken to them, they told me because I had medium/heavy jet time, I was overqualified:hmm:, sometimes I wonder if Im not ever meant to get back to NZ. I was offered an interview at Eagle:eek: (no offense to those guys tryin to get in)

[turbolager]

The requirement is for '50 hours recent New Zealand IFR time'
Cloudcutter, no offense mate but that's just not correct - they've interviewed pilots who did not meet that 'requirement' within the last few years, same as the part 121 ATO time requirements, or lack thereof.

[Cloud Cutter]

Yeah I know, I'm just quoting the letter they send you when you first apply or the statement many overseas pilots have received upon inquiring. The quote is quite correct, but as you state, they may exercise discretion.

[pakeha-boy]

h1.....ditto mate, ditto.....Mors comments ring very true...it seems for those of of us who "had" to leave(because there were no flying jobs) in the early 80,s,are paying the price for trying to get the experience to return .....

I certainly dont begrudge theses blokes(that are currently in kiwi) ,and are not crying foul.The young fellas coming through deserve every opportunity and shot at taking those jobs,.....just like a ewe in the back paddock,or the best looking shelia at the dance....TIMING IS EVERTHING!!!

[On speed on profile]

So exactly what experience should we have to return? Thats rubbish. I have a NZ CPL/MEIR. Ive just done my time elsewhere!


Pakeha boy:

Mate, these two things just shouldnt go together in the same sentence!

"just like a ewe in the back paddock,or the best looking shelia at the dance....TIMING IS EVERTHING!!!"

I get enough stick about this from my colleagues in the UK.

I just quietly cotemplate why they then go on to say "NZ is such a wonderful place" after making the joke!

Cher.

[pakeha-boy]

OSOP....."RUBBISH".......is not being employed because you are..."over- qualified",especially when it comes to flying aircraft (read your PM,s)........by day I fly the A320,for fun I,m part owner of a C-185,both pieces I fly,probably nearly as good as ewe.....kia toa

[On speed on profile]

Pakeha Boy,

Sorry mate, thats what I meant. I wasnt contradicting you.

It is a rubbish idea that anyone wont be employed if they are "over qualified"! Where is the logic in that? Its blatently obvious to any average jo that someone with more than basic experience is going to be an asset to the company!

While I dont quite have the TR's you do, I was hoping to go and fly at home one day. Maybe it wont happen! Sad!

Hope the 'ewe' turn doesnt confuse anyone!

OSOP

[Stewie Griffin]

Being over qualified seems like a ridiculous excuse, its probably just a way of small minded individuals keeping out those of us who ventured off shore and did something different, heaven forbid you didn't get your CPL , do an instructor rating and instruct untill getting the call, or get a charter job getting paid sweet :mad: all untill getting job at whatever regional the said charter company has connections with.

When will NZ wake up and realise that pilots from other countries can actually fly and may infact have something to offer, perhaps when my quest for world domination is complete I'll change that, untill then must go that horrible woman is calling.:ugh:

[MOR]

It's just the other face of NZ... the small-minded, parochial, big-fish-in-small-pond side. It only seems to exist in aviation these days, sadly. In NZ aviation, it is all to do with who you know and how effectively you can "suck up" to somebody who can give you a job. I remember and Air Nelson guy explaining to me that if I had hung around the office for years and washed my share of aircraft (for nothing), I might have a look-in. This sort of attitude seems to pervade Airwork and Origin as well, although the jet operators seem a little more accomodating.

Following on from what haughtney1 said, it is sad that getting into the jet operators now seems to involve buying a type rating. Having said that, 15K kiwi is a hell of a lot less than what it would cost you if you wanted to work for Ryanair or Easyjet...

[Stewie Griffin]

Geez, settle down pakeha-boy, I think you may have completely mis-interpreted my post, I didn't mean to offend.:\
I was agreeing with you and others on how ridiculous it is that people wanting to come home can't get a job because thay are 'over qualified'.
I am definately not saying kiwis can't fly I'm simply saying that just because you haven't done all of your flying (or any of it) in NZ that doesn't mean you can't fly.
I think its just taking parochialism too far, just one of the many reasons I left Godzone, but best of luck to those wanting to return.

[MOR]

Stewie

Quite right, in fact the reverse is probably true; put some of these Air Nelson senior people in a jet, then put them in the airspace around London or CDG and see how they get on.

The answer is, probably, "not well".

I don't say this lightly, I sat in a simulator in Manchester doing a sim check on four ex-Air Nelson guys, and the standard was not high (to say the least).

[haughtney1]

MOR I reckon we could get them all messed up just by getting them to taxy around the outer at Term 1 CDG:}

Or failing that.....checkin in with the LGW/LHR director along with the other 40 or so:p

[MOR]

Yep... maybe the good old +/- 5kt speed control at LHR... or the standard CDG instruction during rush hour in the morning, "you are noombair nine for the ILS 26L, cleared to land"... :)

And then there's my personal favourite... the westerly departure from London City... often a toe-curler...

[Massey058]

Any truth to the rumour that Air Nelson are exercising their options on more Q300's?

[haughtney1]

Yeah I heard that as well....they probably want to "swap" a couple as they've broken them:p

[pakeha-boy]

In 1978 I wore knee pads to all the interviews.....now I take ENOZ,so that when I hear what the conditions and pay are,I can settle the stomach pains....the young fellas are hungry and will just about accept anything.... guilty as charged!!!!...now I look at subsistence flying as not an option.....too many years of good living I reckon......we have 5000 pilots where I work....quite a few kiwis,and in good true kiwi fashion we take the p%ss out NZ aviation,why....because we have all been "there"....plenty of RNZAF,MT Cook stories to go around.....dont get me wrong,its not the pilot types that take the flak,its the management kuri that get it.....MOR sent me a great pm about his experiences,and they resemble mine about the upper crust of kiwi aviation.... the "class" system is alive and well......

ahhhh PB....your cv looks somewhat ok....no Auckland boys Grammer...no letter from the Gov General,the pope....hmmmmm ...porirua ay..they wear clothes and speak english do they?????ay waht...PB

[haughtney1]

I suppose utlimately, we all have to start somewhere and there are far worse places than Air Nelson (I know cause I worked at the worse place...S**tty-jet). The trouble is this, when you have been in the industry for a while and seen the odd thing or two, you dont take too kindly too a frustrated "B" cat masquerading as a Chief pilot telling you that you dont know how to fly "their" aeroplanes:hmm:
Turbo-prop flying is fun, 6 sectors a day is tough, crap management is something you will have to get used too, being told you dont know how to operate a 12 tonne toy...when you operate a 120 tonne toy is another matter entirely!
:ok:

[troppo]

ahh...haughtney, come on s**tty jet wasn't all that bad :}

[haughtney1]

yeah troppo...but it wasnt that great either:}

[27/09]

ahh...haughtney, come on s**tty jet wasn't all that bad

How much worse could it get. As an interested party I don't see that it got much worse than S**tty Jet.

A scheduled operator funding its cheap fares by exobitant type rating fees ($20,000 I was told) for the Bandit, and FO's working for free basically at least for the first 100 or so hours, or did I get that wrong, perhaps part of the 20 grand was to pay for that 100 or so hours of co pilot time.

Plus all the other dodgy things like super short block to block times, something like 5 min for Blenheim to Wellington, ripping off the the owners of the leased aircraft etc. Then there were the "lucky pilots" who were tipping in the their 20 grand right up until the whole thing went tits up. What did they get?

NO I don't think it gets much worse than that.

[troppo]

my degree of sarcasm was overlooked...

[haughtney1]

Nor was mine:hmm:

[MOR]

Hmm sounds like I missed out on something! I take it this "airline" no longer exists?

And how could they call themselves anything-jet if they were flying bandits?

I actually thought you were referring to that fine Irish airline, who I thought were a bit better than that! :p

[haughtney1]

MOR yeah could be the subject of another thread...basically a company called Trans-Global..(who carried freight) then introduced 2 more bandits..and started to carry pax...then they got into to trouble for maintenance etc etc.....(Iused to work there:} )

[AerocatS2A]

Didn't they have some dodgy method of recording flight time where they took some standard taxi figure off the block time? They ended up with rediculously short sector times.

[troppo]

try a google search for webpages in NZ on CityJet
I like the NZ First page second from bottom...it should be put as a sticky on Pprune for all those that consider it.
Yeah flight time of something like 30 mins for the caravan to go from Auckland to Queenstown saw it all come unstuck

[Charlie Horse]

Whats all this talk about Air Nelson not employing overseas pilots, or expats. Total crap, there are several pilots who have been employed recently who have been working abroad. Atleast one of them has been flying wide body jets!

[MOR]

They obviously invested in the "50 hours recent New Zealand Instrument Flying" requirement then, or "knew somebody".

Many of us have been rejected without interview because we did not have the above.

In my case, I was told by your then Chief Pilot that he would never employ "any bastard who had jumped the queue by flying in Europe", and that he didn't like "foreign bastards taking Kiwi jobs" (a "foreign bastard" including kiwi expats it seems). He went on to explain that the proper preparation for a job at Air Nelson involved hanging around like a bad smell until someone noticed you, washing aircraft, sucking up to everybody in sight, and generally selling yourself short in every department.

Of course most Kiwis accept this as normal. Those of us who have flown elsewhere, understand that real airlines value experience (as diverse as possible) and ability. They don't care where you got it. They also understand the need to occasionally hire direct-entry training staff or captains, becuae sometimes you need an injection of experience to balance up a young and inexperienced pilot workforce.

Air Nelson are the most prominent exponents of parochial stupidity, but most NZ operators do it in some form or another.

BTW I'll bet money that the experienced wide-body jet guy was required to start as an F/O, right? Never happen anywhere else in the world.

[Waka Rider]

MOR agree with you, sadly did not meet the requirement with Air Nelson due to lack of NZ hrs. Maybe if I had flown a seneca around at night not a 777 around the globe for BA I might be better suited. Having already flown the Dash 8-300Q with Brymon All I was interested in doing was living in Napier and accepting a quieter life with my family with no jetlag, still flying and doing heaps of pig hunting. Alas I know what I have to do when I go home on holiday.

[pakeha-boy]

PIG HUNTING!!!!...Waka ..you bloody beauty mate!!!!four legged is the best....but if thats not your style ...2 legged is okay with me too...PB

[Charlie Horse]

Yeah I can see there is a bad side to having a seniority list, but that depends on where your sitting, I for one would be really pissed off if an expat with heaps of jet time came back and jumpedahead of me, we have all done our time wether its overseas or in NZ, I could have gone overseas, but I chose to stay in NZ and fly turbo props.

I think that a seniority list is the fairest way, and although it has its down side, most pilots I know agree it is the best way.

And as far as lack of experienced pilots go at Air Nelson, I don't think thats happened yet. The majority of pilots at Air Nelson have been there at least 10 years, so there hasn't been a need to employ direct entry experienced ex wide bodied jet pilots. Although with the fleet replacement, as part of the deal, Bombardier have been sending over a few of there own pilots temporarily to help with line training.

[El Oso]

As an ex Air Nelson pilot who now flies Airbuses LHS in Asia I have been reading this thread with interest. Seems like nothing much has changed in the time I've been gone. Air Nelson had excellent standards, very good training and maintenance, nice route structure etc. IMHO its technical standards would rate with the international jet carriers I know from the inside (QF & SQ) and compared to other turbo prop operators I've flown with for they deserve respect for their excellent STD of operation in what can be a demanding environment.

However the comments on management sound familiar - I can remember a couple of wannabes with big chips in Chicken training. And some parochial mgt types who lacked basic mgt and people skills. I guess the SAFE AIR / Blenheim BBQ club guys will all be retired out of there soon but they certainly monopolised the place when the Saabs came, much to many long serving Air Nelson guys disdain (Can't make decisions unless you've flown an Argosy!). It was always a very political place and hence not always a happy camp, but STD's wise - very good.

We had a few expats who had returned home as F/Os while I was there - they were good, and can't remember any animosity towards them, but then many of us had worked hard for almost nothing and put up with many years of NZ GA cr*p to get into Air Nelson, so I can understand the feelings if seniority was ignored. The STD of F/O's after a year or two inside was very high and really little excuse for not giving out commands to their own. Yes Europe and the Mid East have direct entry commands, and I've benefited from that policy too - but its because they lack the F/O's to upgrade. Rarely the case in NZ. Air Nelson seniority was fine by me, you had to meet a good STD for an upgrade when you number came and it eliminated alot of the greasy BS I've witnessed on companies that use the so called "merit" system. If I come home I would accept the seniority system for an F/O's job, IMHO its called having respect for your workmates - and your time will come.

Like any place its the people that make it happen - if they feel threatened by you in an interview then its little Johnny with 1500 hours in Tomahawks who'll get the spot... One could venture if mgt lost their insecurities about not "making it" onto the big stuff and feel comfortable in themselves for the excellent operation they have fostered, they could also feel comfortable about welcoming a wider cross section of joiners and enjoy the breadth of experience they can bring.

Like others I would quite like to one day go home to a nice job in DHC8-300's in Nelson, Napier etc - but not likely unless things change alot there first!
:sad:

[haughtney1]

Been away on a trip so Ive missed the last few bits......:}
People that are at Air Nsn now, just out of interest what does one have to do? The career path that Im following would seem to preclude Nsn as a potential option should the bright lights of LGW and LHR ever get a bit much. The seniority based system makes sense (although when I see where Im on my present seniority list I often wonder:hmm: ), however from the outside it still looks VERY much like its jobs for the boys. And what about this NZ IFR requirement? is it really just a filter...perhaps its like the HR gobbledegook that UK airlines seem to delight in making you do, or is it a justifiable way to keep the seniority list balanced?
just a thought:ok:

[MOR]

When I questioned the NZ IFR requirement, I was told that it was there because they "had problems with some foreign pilots not being able to cope with NZ airspace". I asked in what way NZ airspace is different to any other ICAO airspace. He didn't know. The answer, of course, is that it is a LOT simpler than most other ICAO aispace. I asked him in what way NZ procedures were more difficult than any other ICAO-based procedures. He didn't know. The answer, of course, is that NZ procedures are no more difficult (and often a lot simpler) than other ICAO procedures.

Eventually, I got him to admit that it was there only to prevent people by-passing the standard NZ progression throught aero clubs etc. In other words, jobs for the boys, as you suggest.

It may be that the requirement is no longer strictly adhered to, however any airline management that would allow such nonsense at all, has to deeply suspect.

And as for standards, if the stories about roasted Dash 8 engines are true, you have to wonder how high standards really are. Any airline that has trouble introducing such a simple type, surely has a training (and experience) problem.

[pakeha-boy]

MOR,.....you have put it all in a nutshell mate!!!!....

[Charlie Horse]

If I wanted to go and fly overseas, lets say in Europe, I would have to completely resit my ATPL subjects and License (I think) and fork out 20 -30 thousand dollars for a type rating, plus all the problems with getting a work Visa. Coming back to NZ from overseas even if had to do 50 hours of local flying sounds easier to me. I don't think this is a requirement any more?

[belowMDA]

MOR, didn't Mr. GJ - 50hrs in NZ Fox-Oscar some years back now? The guys who do the recruiting these days seem far more broad minded, or so I believe.

[Charlie Horse]

Air Nelson are interviewing again shortly for an April or June SAAB ground course, they are hoping it will be the last SAAB course, so any more after this might be on the Q300.

The guys doing the hiring at the moment are top guys and they seem to be choosing a mix of low time pilots and more experienced pilots, (quite a few jumping ship from Eagle and Origin!) I'm no expert on hiring pilots, but I guess they looking for sensible people to fly there aircraft and who are going to stick around for a while.

MOR, Haughtney1 etc, if your really that keen to fly for Air Nelson, I don't think they care if you've been flying overseas or not, but don't approach them demanding a direct entry command, you'll have to accept that there is a seniority list. At the moment F/O's who are getting commands have still got around 4 - 5000 hrs, so they aren't laking that much experience yet! I know of Kiwi pilots in Europe who have commands on 737's with less hours than that.

Air Nelson is not a bad company, like you make it out to be.

[haughtney1]

Charlie Horse,
If you'd actually read what Ive typed...and more to the point asked, Im not wanting a direct entry command, nor am saying Air Nsn is a bad company. What I asked about was the company hiring policy, the reason I've asked this is because I see Air Nsn as a potential employer in the future, not because its my only option..far from it infact..but because potentially should I ever decide to move back home to NZ I feel it would be nice to have an idea of the lay of the land.
MOR, Haughtney1 etc, if your really that keen to fly for Air Nelson, I don't think they care if you've been flying overseas or not, but don't approach them demanding a direct entry command, you'll have to accept that there is a seniority list. At the moment F/O's who are getting commands have still got around 4 - 5000 hrs, so they aren't laking that much experience yet! I know of Kiwi pilots in Europe who have commands on 737's with less hours than that.

Well I dont give two hoots whos doing what, Im asking as Im interested for my own personal reasons as I have previously outlined... if Air Nsn dont care where you come from..that would be a breath of fresh air in the NZ aviation scene..the 1000hrs or so I did in NZ didnt bear this out.
Its just my experience:ok:

[Charlie Horse]

Sorry guys I didn't mean to offend or misquote anyone, but I got the feeling a few of you might be trying to turn this into a "Air Nelson bashing thread". Naturally as I work there I was just trying to clarify a few things. This "small minded kiwi attitude problem" funnily enougth I have encounted and I know what you mean. But I don't think this exists at Air Nelson. Recently they have been employing pilots from GA, instructors and other airlines, and yes there are a few from overseas. Althougth we must keep in mind that there has been heaps of employment over the last few years, and once it slows, then I guess management become more picky as to who they choose.

[MOR]

And that is precisely the problem.

Attitudes in Air Nelson are entrenched, and they come all the way from the top. The "anti-expat" attitude is pure R.I., I know this because he told me so, as did his chief pilot. He had the same attitude when he was running Mot-Air, the only people that ever got jobs there were people prepared to suck up to him big-time. Although he left Air Nelson some time ago, the attitude has remained.

As far as experience goes, it is quite true that Air Nelson will have some F/Os with thousands of hours. However, what you don't mention is that a large proportion of that time was probably spend instructing in singles, or other similar GA flying. But it isn't a matter of hours, it is a matter of quality, and guys with several thousand hours hard IFR are far better equipped for command.

The problem with Air Nelson is that faced with two choices for captain - a company guy with a few thousand hours, mostly in GA, and having flown nothing larger than a Saab; or an outside guy with several thousand hours, mostly command and mostly on sizeable jets, mostly flown in very demanding Euro airspace - they will always give the company guy the command. It makes no rational sense, from any conceivable point of view, but that is what will happen. Most overseas airlines realised aeons ago that experience is your best friend when it comes to accident prevention. However, Air Nelson (amongst others) would rather follow their protectionist policies than bow to common sense. They would rather put relatively inexperienced people in the left seat, when they have a potential goldmine of experience they could call upon.

Of course, most of the returning expats (including myself) have no wish to return to the right seat and be paid a pittance, so all that experience is lost to the type of operation that seems to need it most.

It is, sadly, the story of NZ aviation, from the CAA ("we are the only ones that know anything about aviation"), through the execrable ASL, down through the airlines and into GA. it is, literally, a closed shop.

[Waka Rider]

PB bro just love hunting anything in the bush :} Good luck to the fellas in Air Nelson the Dash is beaut to operate. Does the Saab have over torque protection? As it is sooooo easy to do on the Dash.

[haughtney1]

torque protection?
On a dash 8..? mayby all those GA boys think its a turbo-charged piston..with an auto wastegate:} :p

[Hugh Jarse]

Not so silly a question...

Dash only has it as a backup during the autofeather sequence, if the Np underspeed governing cancel signal from the SCU fails to be sent to the ECU.

It happens at 120% from memory and is via the torque gauge....

Oh bugga, I realised Waka was asking about the SAAB.:uhoh:

[nike]

Not that I totally disagree with your last post MOR, but you have to give some credit towards RELEVANT experience. You mentioned quality, and I agree entirely, but I wouldn't be in a hurry to disregard the experience of the company F/O as not having some quality.
The F/O's experience is relevant, i.e. is current, is specific, is SOP. I would anticipate the Euro Jet skipper might have ideas of his own, and basically run a non-SOP operation.

It's a little hard to put this one on paper without winding through too much waffle, particularly as I agree that it is a waste not to utilise experience when it is available. I would find myself agreeing with both arguments. Thats why it would come down to individual cases and the merits of each.

I just don't think it is quite as black and white as you suggest.

[mattyj]

Air Nelson (and Eagle) are just members of the Koru club guys..don't you think any hiring policy would stem from further up the chain..there might even be a "system" in place after last years feeding frenzy!?

[Cloud Cutter]

I don't think so. The recruitment processes are completely different across the link airlines. How else could you explain the number of people who have missed out with Eagle only to be taken on by Air Nelson? Each airline is largely responsible for it's own operations (including recruitment). As long as things are done within the realms of reasonableness, I doubt big brother has much input in these areas.

[Oktas8]

It is, sadly, the story of NZ aviation, from the CAA ("we are the only ones that know anything about aviation"), ...
Not like the UK CAA at all then is it MOR? The UK CAA are happy to accept other ICAO licenses with only a few 000 pounds worth of "dual training" and retesting. Not like those sods at the NZCAA who make you do an NZ Law exam and a BFR to get a CPL. I don't know how they sleep at night.
:E :E :E
(The point I'm making is that every CAA is nepotistic in its own way. For a variety of reasons, some good, some not. Life is short, get a job you like in a place whose nepotism you can tolerate.)

[Artificial Horizon]

As a fellow Kiwi currently flying nice shiney jets around Europe I partially agree with MOR and Haughty. I don't see why my experience flying both long haul and short haul jets in the northern hemisphere should preclude me from being treated in the same way as every other applicant. I am quite willing to go through the interview process just like everyone else and could accept not getting a job offer because they think I am a w**ker. What I do object to is this completely rediculous requirement to have 50 hours recent IFR flying in NZ. I have instrument flying experience from many different countries encounted over the last few years, and although each has its differences none would warrant this sort of extra 'training' to enable me to operate safely. Just to make it clear, I think it is fair enough that I apply like everyone else and if selected serve my time in the right hand seat just like everyone else. Where I disagree with MOR is the 'quality of hours' statement, although different, working your way up through GA is just as valuable as flying the jet. I feel an FO who has been in the company for x number of years if far better placed for the command than I would be, as he is current and SOP where as I would be learning new SOP's and although I have 2000 hours on the Dash 8 2/3/400 it is now a distant memory and would take time to get back into the swing of things. Please just don't penalise me because I took the huge gamble of spending every penny I had to uproot my family across the world to both gain experience and travel.

[Waka Rider]

Well said AH agree with you. Just could not see flying full time no pay on the dole and working in a Pub two nights a week just to make limited ends meet. It is a risky expensive gamble coming to Europe and I have been extremely lucky. But to think that too live in Napier and fly for Air Nelson I better get a job with GBA first just to meet requirements is outstanding!!!

[haughtney1]

You know guys..Ive come to the conclusion..its their loss, not mine. Possibly thats a little arrogant..but hey so what? There are jobs to be had at the moment so we can afford to be picky(to get the right job)
Mayby its time to buy that second home in NZ.....rent it out..and build a bloody big nest egg for my retirement in about 30yrs or so?
Air Nsn if your'e listening..I am available (for the right price..and only if you invest in some turbo-fan technology:} ) Goodluck to all you guys getting in for the first time....I hope you keep an open mind to all us Ex pats who broke the faith and jumped the queue (only cos I couldnt afford to work for 5yrs for next to nothing)
P.S. Got told today from a Cathay skipper that they are DESPERATELY short:ok:

[ZK-PIG]

Can someone please advise how you go about applying for Air Nelson from overseas.

[MOR]

Nike and Artificial Horizon

The F/O's experience is relevant, i.e. is current, is specific, is SOP. I would anticipate the Euro Jet skipper might have ideas of his own, and basically run a non-SOP operation.

It is the mark of a professional pilot that you always use the SOPs of the company you work for. I don't think the Euro skipper would have any ideas of his own, any more than a Kiwi F/O would revert to single-pilot mode (because the bulk of his experience is probably single-pilot). The problem of reversion is complex, but it has been shown that reverting to single-pilot (ie not using your crew in moments of stress) is more dangerous than reverting to a different SOP, which is still safe, even if it is different.

But you are right, it isn't black and white, and of course some value should be placed on currency and familiarity with SOPs. However, people shouldn't be excluded because they haven't got 50 hours recent NZ IF, either.

Haughtney1

I absolutely agree.

[Hanz Blix]

Come on guys and girls this whole 50 IFR argument is getting really bloody old!

Think when you were told this and how long ago it was, i bet things have changed. Also seniority system is the way NZ runs it may not seem fair, but when in rome do as the romans do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You could perhaps for a second take a look in the mirror, I'm not trying to insult anybody because i don't know the circumstances but airlines have been known to come up with silly requirements like this as i nice way to say they don't like you:{ Lastly you could consider trying other companies Eag, Cook, Chats ect ect who might just welcome your experience.

All I'm trying to say is yes it may suck be Jesus H Christ get over it :ok:

[MOR]

nice way to say they don't like you

Yes well the problem with that is that they have never met me! Nor, I suspect, any of the others who have been told the same thing.

Also, I think you will find that we are all "over it", and have been for some time. However, this sort of nonsense needs to be exposed for what it really is. You young guys coming up through the system "the hard way" are doing so because of outdated, protectionist attitudes. Your progression, and career options, would be a lot better in a more sensible environment.

[Hanz Blix]

Yes true MOR, but is it necessary to bring it up in every thread???????????:}

We all know it goes on and we all know some of the attitudes. I think you might also find instead of knocking the younger fellas/fellessesssssss go and talk to them and you will realise there attitudes are some what different to what you believe they are and therefore attitudes in the next 5-10 years will change along with them.

Lastly I'm sure not every airline you rang in NZ said this to you, or is flying a beech or metro a little below you? (question not a dig):ok:

[MOR]

I think you must have misunderstood me Hanz Blix

I'm not knocking the young folk, merely commiserating with them - they inherit this stuff, it isn't their fault.

As far as ringing airlines, I haven't bothered for quite some time. I don't really care what I fly, probably the most fun I had in the airline world was poling around in F27s with no autopilots. Much more fun than flying auto-jets.

I haven't bothered because I knew I would end up at the bottom of the heap, with miserable pay and little in the way of promotion for some years to come. It just isn't worth it financially, I can make four times as much working from home. I knew that when I came back from Europe, so I didn't even bother going through the motions.

That doesn't mean that the attitudes that have effectively ended my NZ flying career aren't a load of bull. They are, and they need to be exposed as such.

Can you imagine Microsoft starting an advanced programmer on the helpdesk? Of course not, they recognise the skills and put the new hire where he or she belongs in the structure. They recognise that those skills and experience have taken years to accumulate, and have value to the organisation. They also understand that if they give the new guy work that is below his experience level, he will probably get bored and start making mistakes.

NZ aviation is probably the only place where such outdated attitudes persist. It's like a glimpse of the dark ages.

For my part, if I want to fly, I just go back to Europe on a short-term contract. I am always employed as a captain, I get paid many times what I would here, and I don't have to endure this nonsense.

[Waka Rider]

Like the idea MOR particularly about Captains contracts and picking and choosing what you want to do. Have come to the conclusion can still work for my crowd and live in NZ and just commute your only working 9 and half months of the year anyway. Get the best of both worlds. We have 5 guys already living in NZ and one is short haul on the bus. Your in a good position to be in MOR but not so many RJ/146 kicking around unless you like the Swiss

[haughtney1]

Waka....but how far up the seniority list are they?...is carmen their friend?

[Waka Rider]

Bro these fellas like me self are on a different rostering system. Long haul we are on bidline. Carmen is Greek to me only our LGW 737 fellas use her.

[haughtney1]

I meant to say bidline..getting my C & B's messed up......and carmen is cabin crew mostly:\ tells you who I talk to...:}

[Cloud Cutter]

MOR, I really have to disagree with some of your argument. I don't see any reason why a pilot who has even 10,000 hours in command of more sophisticated aircraft would be a better candidate for a command with Air Nelson than one of their own F/Os who has probably been there at least 3 years and amassed over 2000 hours on that specific operation. I'm sure the experienced pilot would do a great job, but doubt they would be any better (on average) than the upgraded F/O.

I think there is far too much emphasis placed on numbers. The type of experience, and particularly the quality of the applicant are more important factors. I'm sure you will agree that many 1000 hr pilots are more competent than some 3000 hr pilots etc.

It is agreed that there is no reason for an airline like Air Nelson to preclude the hiring of overseas pilots or ex pats, but that doesn't mean they should be able to jump the queue.

By the way, for those interested - JetConnect are interviewing like crazy now all the Jet* stuff is sorted out. Non T/R F/Os can expect to pay $15 G for the pleasure.

[haughtney1]

Yeah Cloud..I got offered an interview..and told em to stick it when I was told Id have to fork out 15K AUD for a 300:yuk: (not even an NG! for gawds sake:} )
I think there is far too much emphasis placed on numbers. The type of experience, and particularly the quality of the applicant are more important factors. I'm sure you will agree that many 1000 hr pilots are more competent than some 3000 hr pilots etc
While this may be true in isolated cases..insurance companies all over the world will disagree with you..and they are ones who end up paying for hull losses, which I suspect means they know more than both you or I:ok:
I'm sure the experienced pilot would do a great job, but doubt they would be any better (on average) than the upgraded F/O
Sorry mate I have to beg to differ....having been there and done it on T/P's..an experienced operator (jet or T/P) has a bigger treasure trove to fall back on..than a new young player with less toys in the tool kit. Truth be told I dont think there is a lot in it..but thats just my opinion:ok:

[justathought]

I reckon the old captain young captain/ jet experience/local TP experience argument is very interesting and am not sure where I stand on it. My initial reaction is that once a guy has a couple thousand hours belting around NZ with Nelson he would be less likely to make inadvertant SOP deviations than a fifty something Captain with 20,000hrs and lots of jet time.
The main reason for me thinking that is that the older captains I fly with tire earlier than the young ones and after a nine hour duty that has involved six approaches and departues and turn arounds, they are often "feeling it". Now I guess that's going to get some 'reaction ' from MOR, but it is my honest opinion and one based on observation. I am not assuming that would be the case for you MOR, for all I know you run marathons and stay alert after the 20yr olds are dozing.
To balance things up I would suggest that the jet captain in this scenario would better handle an emergency that has no checklist and requires more experience to draw on in order to solve it.
Cheers

[Waka Rider]

Just a thought it may sound like a counter to you but its my 2 cents. Having changed from short to long haul about a year ago. The old guys may appear to tire a bit around the edges but they really now when to turn it and have much better fatigue management than I have ( the girls in the back have nothing to do with it :} ). I come back from an alnight Chicago trip absolutely dog tired yet these guys have it sorted out when to be alert and when not to be. We are always learning and when you can bring so good outside experience into your companies ranks it does not upset SOP's if your company has it well trained. We have over 3500 pilots from those that blew up the Argies in the Falklands, dumb arse Kiwi's like me and cadet guys who go onto 757/767 as F/O's with 200hrs through a fantastic training system. Some of our people may mention there can be better ways to operate our aircraft but if they want too they will have to go out and buy their own 777 or 747-400.
Haughtney I reckon judging by the car park in LGW you fellas have the youngest girls with the biggest eyes :8

[mattyj]

MOR if you mean what you say about the Focker, then give Airwork a call..they're looking for a direct entry Captain based in Woodburn with an F27 rating..work at night..couple of sectors..play all day..good vino in Marlborough and pays OK..fly the pony express!

[justathought]

Good point Waka,
I haven't flown long haul so haven't seen what you are describing but can imagine that the case would be as you described.
Do you think that the skill they have developed in long haul at managing fatigue could be put to use in regional? To me it seems like the fatigue is related to the "intensity" of the flying. If that were not the case surely the older regional guys would be more adept at handling it than the younger guys for the same reasons as on lng haul, they have been doing it longer and have stratagies in place to manage it.
Now, having used the words "intensity of the flying" I want to get in first and make it clear I am not talking about airspace and movements etc, it is not a comparison between Euro and nz flying, just a comparison between regional and long haul, the "pace" of the sectors/approaches/turnarounds might say it better. Also, I would not presume that the jet jockeys are not doing six sector days with 20 minute turn arounds, for all I know they are. Cheers.

[Cloud Cutter]

haughtney1

Have you ever flown with a very experienced captain whom you found 'uninspiring' in terms of aptitude and CRM? That's where my argument stems from.

Just to clarify, I realise I would be stupid to say that experience is not a very important component. But it is a generalisation, and must be viewed as part of the whole package. Of course most airlines have minimum hours for PIC which are in part determined by insurance requirements, but I'm talking about people who meet these requirements.

[haughtney1]

Now, having used the words "intensity of the flying" I want to get in first and make it clear I am not talking about airspace and movements etc, it is not a comparison between Euro and nz flying, just a comparison between regional and long haul, the "pace" of the sectors/approaches/turnarounds might say it better. Also, I would not presume that the jet jockeys are not doing six sector days with 20 minute turn arounds, for all I know they are. Cheers
In those few sentences you have sumed up Euro Low cost flying (easy/ryanair)...plenty of the "experienced" guys that are now flying longhaul started out doing this...with intensity levels 3-4 times the levels I have experienced in NZ or Oz.
Cloud..yep mate of course I have (havent we all)..but the vast majority Ive operated with have been bloody good in a pinch..good operators, and they've made several tough situations seem simple. And yeah I take your point about generalisations.
My experience to date tells me Id rather fly with these old salts who have been there and done it..not cos I dont think a younger guy cant do it, but because I know I can learn a lot more from a salty old B'stard:}

[NoseGear]

MOR, who says you have to be in the left seat to make a contribution? I know your attitudes about starting at the bottom, but at an outfit like Nelson, it makes very little difference what your number is, as the roster etc are not based on seniority, just time to command. Like a previous poster, I too am a former Nelson pilot, now flying shiny fast toys around asia. I can say for fact, there are no "aerolcub" wannabees in the management team, they have been there, done that, got the t-shirt. The guys there, MF in particular, are excellent managers, and I would be highly surprised to hear that anyone of them did not have the time of day for you if you rang. Their door was always open, they all fly the line and are always good for a chat around the crewrooms. I had a good experience there, and maybe one day would like to return, and I don't mind going back to the bottom of the list, thats the way it works there. My ego can take it, afterall, I've been married for years!!!:E

[ZK-DAN]

Yo MattyJ,
You're a bit behind the times there Mr. We filled that spot a while ago. Maybe those JetA1 fumes are getting to ya! The Blenhiem base is turning into Little Texas.

[MOR]

Cloud Cutter

I don't see any reason why a pilot who has even 10,000 hours in command of more sophisticated aircraft would be a better candidate for a command with Air Nelson than one of their own F/Os who has probably been there at least 3 years and amassed over 2000 hours on that specific operation.

Others have said it, but it is the depth of experience that is important. For example, it is perfectly possible for a 3-year F/O to have never experienced an emergency, never seen really bad weather, and so on. Even if they do, they are not managing the situation and making decisions. It is likely that your 10,000 hour guy will have plenty of that sort of experience - I know I have had several engine failures and some very nasty weather emergencies (like, over the North Sea... past PNR... whole of Norway goes out with bad wx... what do you do...?)

Any expert in risk management will tell you that the airline business is one big risk. If only one of your pilots screws up, and people die, the airline can end up out of business. It is therefore vital to maximise the experience and skill of your workforce, and that should not be limited by outdated seniority policies. In other words, smart airlines take the best guys they can and don't operate a rigid seniority system.

but that doesn't mean they should be able to jump the queue.

As many more progessive airlines have realised, there is no such thing as a "queue". Joining as an F/O does not (in most airlines) guarantee that you will always be next in line. Vacancies should be (and usually are) filled on the basis of the best person for the job. In fact, sticking to a rigid seniority system is far more likely to result in less competent people getting through to command, than the other way around.

BTW 15K is extremely cheap for a 737 rating, it would cost you double that in Europe...

justathought

My initial reaction is that once a guy has a couple thousand hours belting around NZ with Nelson he would be less likely to make inadvertant SOP deviations than a fifty something Captain with 20,000hrs and lots of jet time.

The bit that I don't think a lot of people get, is that most 20,000 captains are extremely self-disciplined and have no issues with SOP's. I have this problem every time I take up a contract, but in reality there are only a few ways to operate a 737 or whatever, and most operators just use the Boeing FM as the basis for their SOP (as it is a certification requirement to follow the manufacturers procedures). Any deviations from SOP are therefore likely to be minor and not a safety issue.

Regarding fatigue, sure the older guys will feel it, but they are also better at managing fatigue. Personally, I have had less problems with being tired (through noisy hotels etc) than many of the F/Os I have flown with, mainly due to their propensity for staying up late and drinking, in the hope of bedding one of the hosties... some of them turn up for work very much the worse for wear, and are useless after three sectors. For what it's worth, it is pretty hard to find a short-haul jet job these days that has less than 6 sectors and/or 8-10 hours duty... not to mention the 20-minute turnarounds... :{

As far as longhaul goes, I have no desire to ever fly longhaul. It must be as boring as hell! Bad enough being a pax...

NoseGear

MOR, who says you have to be in the left seat to make a contribution?

Well, if you don't know where the authority gradient flows from... ;)

All joking aside, you can only make the contribution that you are allowed to. Having spent a lot of time in checking and training (in an environment where CRM is a pass/fail item on the proficiency check), I have noticed that when you have a young, relatively inexperienced skipper and a very experienced, older F/O, the result is usually that the captain asserts his authority rather too strongly, and the F/O is out to prove a point. All very human, sadly, but a flight safety nightmare. My observation is that a lot of younger captains tend to be arrogant, whereas the older ones tend to be more concilatory. Just my observation, you might have a completely different take on it.

I think you will find that, a few years down the track, you will most definitely NOT want to start again at the bottom. It has nothing to do with ego, it is about pay and conditions (and possibly having to fly with a captain half your age, trying to prove what a hot shot he is).

At the end of the day, it is a choice we have to make, and I choose not to bother with it. Although I did get a call from Jetconnect yesterday... hmmm... :p

[Cloud Cutter]

Point taken. Yeah, that 73 rating is heavily subsidised, I think the total cost is around $30-35k.

[Speeds high]

What a chip :E :ouch:

[haughtney1]

What a chip

Throwin stones in glass houses hmmmmmmmm:hmm: