SPIC or PUT

[Lord Flashheart]

Once you hold a PPL and SEP class rating then how do you log hours thereafter? For example, solo flights P1. If you do a night rating or IMC rating that would be PUT.

If you learn to fly a new type, ie going from PA28's to T67, do you log the hours of difference training with the instructor as PUT or as PICUS?

I have logged all these hours as PUT and was wondering if any of them count as P1 in the form of SPIC or PICUS.

[Blinkz]

As far as I know SPIC can only be used on integrated courses, and PICUS is only used for successful skills tests. Any other flight you have with an instructor, for any reason, is PUT.

[mad_jock]

Blinkz has it right.

There have been some people tried it on and counted it towards there totals for CPL issue and been told to sod off and go and build more hours before issue.

[Lord Flashheart]

So any differences training at all must be logged as PUT? That is what i thought and have done. I knew something like the T67 and DA40 would be PUT as it's VP prop difference training, however wondered if something like C152 could be SPIC.

Am i also correct in thinking difference training is required and to be signed off for retractable gear craft even if a SEP?

Next time i can't sleep i'll have to get LASORS out for a read!

[FlyingForFun]

Things which require differences training off the top of my head:

- Variable pitch prop
- Retractable undercarriage
- Turbocharged or supercharged engine
- Pressurised
- Tail-dragger

So any training you do on aircraft with these differences, if you haven't already been signed off for the difference, must be PUT, and be signed by your instructor once you complete the checkout, as you say already.

Interestingly, LASORS suggests that after having trained in a difference on an SEP, you must receive further training for the same difference for an MEP. However, if you read JAR FCL, this is not the case. JAR FCL does not list any differences which require differences training on an MEP, only on an SEP.


If you have a checkout on an aircraft for which you do not require differences training, it gets more wooly.

You are legally entitled to log P1, so long as you are insured on the aircraft before the checkout, in which case your instructor is a passenger and may not log the flight, but you would need to agree this with him in advance because as a mere passenger he has no right to take over the controls from you unless you invite him to. Some instructors are quite happy with this, other instructors (me included) are not.

The next alternative is for the instructor to log P1, in which case it is the instructor who is in command for the flight. In this case, you would log PUT. This is the I do checkouts, and I think probably the majority of instructors.

The final alternative is for the instructor to log P1, and you log PICUS. There is a lot of debate about this one, because it is probably the most logical way of logging the time, but neither LASORS nor any other official document states whether it is allowed or not. Personally, I would steer clear of this one - it might well be ok, but all it takes is one accident later on in your career, then the insurance company decides to go through your logbook, and if they disagree with you as to whether PICUS is allowed, they could invalidate your insurance. Unlikely, but far safer to just log PUT for a checkout, because no one is ever going to argue that this is not allowed.

FFF
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[BillieBob]

JAR FCL does not list any differences which require differences training on an MEPThis raises an interesting grey area. It is the expressed intention of the JAA that the presentation of MEP(L) and MEP(S) in Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.261 indicates that differences training is required between any two MEP(L) types or MEP(S) types (e.g. from a Duchess to a Seneca, etc). Indeed, this was presented by the CAA as the reason that they could not mandate differences training between the DA42 and conventional MEP aeroplanes - because the JAA already mandated it.

I agree that it is a difficult interpretation but, if you read paragraph (a) of the explanation, it states "the symbol (D) in column 3 indicates that differences training is required when moving between variants or other types of aeroplane which are separated by the use of a line in column 2." Now, admittedly, there is no separating line in column 2 of the MEP entry but the contention of the JAA as represented by the Head of Approvals at the CAA is that this merely indicates that all variants or other types within the class are subject to differences training.

Perhaps Whopity, who clearly has the ear of the CAA, would care to comment?

[mad_jock]

Well i think quite a few peoples paper work is going to be a bit suspect then.

You would need the official sticker or written form for every MEP type in your log book. Which I have never recieved before. Also as well all those people who borrow friends aircraft and are checked out by the owner who isn't a FI (MEP) would be on sticky ground as well unless previously flown that type. FI(MEP) are not very common on the ground and very likely to become alot less as time goes on.

[What's a Girdler]

This is such a wooly area, differing in opinion is rife, I called FCL at Gatwick to ask what the score was. They said that if you were doing a test you can log it as P1/S. If you do a checkout flight with an examiner you can also log it as P1/S. They also seemed to believe that a 6 monthly, club rule, checkride could also be logged as P1/S, however LASORS say otherwise as this I think counts for regressive training. I logged my PPL skills test as P1/S which got through fine, and I had two six monthly checkrides with an examiner, who signed these off as P1/S. I did have 6 monthly checkrides with a bog standard instructor which I logged as PUT. Don't forget that your CPL skills test, if successful counts towards the 100 P1 hours as it can be logged as P1/S.
Purpose of my comments are that I think SRG are unclear on the situation too!

[mad_jock]

I suspect its only going to get worse as the time to go to the transfer of license issue to europe gets nearer.

Then you really won't have much chance arguing your point when trying convince some french doris who thinks you are a rude capitalist island monkey who has single handed managed to drive france into a second world country that the CAA said it was ok a year ago.

Your far safer to log all check outs as PUT or PIC and don't mess with the other flavours of logging things. I suspect its going to be a nightmare when the whole lot gets transfered across and as most won't be UK admin staff. I suspect the UK stuff will be picked over with attention to sending back to sender for another 3 month wait for proccessing. Back twice sorry your 6 months is up on yor CPL flight test, application refused.Just because you have 4.5 hours of check rides down as PICUS

MJ

[LFS]

There was actually a draft AIC about mandated differences training from a conventional twin to a DA42 (grouped as a single lever aircraft) but I am not sure whatever became of it.

[powdermonkey]

I posted a similar thread a while back. The issue came up again this week.
I flew with an instructor in the circuit as I wanted to make sure landings etc, were up to scratch. I have a ppl and se/land rating. As I had done my 1hr with an instructor as part of the 12hrs required for PPL revalidation, I was once more insured on type by the club. Therefore, I was told to log P1 for those circuits as the instructor was there to "observe" as opposed to teach. I was also told to put it down as PICUS. Then I had a look at the JAR log book, which states that all should be logged as P1, (SPIC/PICUS) and that the instructor should countersign. I AM STILL CONFUSED!!!!
So I will log a checkride as Put, and any further flights with an instructor as safety/instruction on type will be logged as P1 with a counter signature.
I hope that this will be honest and good enough. If anyone decides not to count some of these as P1 at a later date, then it will only be a couple of hours and I will be able to do those xtra as required.
Incidently, if going stateside and an instructor goes with you to check you out, this too would be Put, or would it be P1s, or P1 with signature?
AAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!