J* 330'S

[Agony]

I know the last two threads on this topic have been closed so if nobody hijacks this one I may be able to get some answers/advice.

If you pay the 40k for the 330 slot, are you hired by J* or a separate company for the short period until the 787 arrives ?

If you are hired by J* and pay for the 330 slot, "surely" that would then cough up for subsequent training if they replaced the type.

I know I might be extremely naive, but go easy this is my first post,

Cheers:ok:

[jack red]

No pilot should pay for a rating. If he does, he gets what he deserves.
It never happened in the Ansett/TAA days so why should it happen now.
Don't anyone dare start with the "industry standard" cr*p either.

[Howard Hughes]

It never happened in the Ansett/TAA days so why should it happen now.
Sadly it is no longer the 'Ansett/TAA' days, things seem to have moved on!
Unfortunately for the newcomers it does'nt seem to be for the better, it also looks like it is here to stay at least in the short to medium term.:ugh:

[Capt Fathom]

NO!.....It is only here to stay if people are prepared to go along with it. You may think spending $30-40,000 on an endorsement is an investment. It's not. You are out of pocket and still have no guarantee of a long term job. How many more times will you have to pay?
Shares have a much better return!

[Howard Hughes]

Shares have a much better return!
So does real estate, but then again this isn't a business/economic decision now is it?
Because if it was, there would be NO pilots at all......;)

[Woomera]

Let's STAY ON TOPIC, people. Agony asked a couple of fairly simple questions. He/she did not ask for the morality or philosophy behind the topic.

Yes, we know it's an emotive subject, but....If you can't answer the question...MOVE ONTO THE NEXT THREAD!:suspect:

The best thing you can do Agony is look on the AFAP website (if you're a member). There is a copy of their EBA there.:cool:

Moving this to D&G Questions

Woomera (Eastern States)

[haughtney1]

I think Agony you have to look at paying for an aircraft type rating such as a 330 as the thin end of the wedge. From an airline accountants point of view, why not make you pay for the 787 type-rating? You've demonstrated you can afford to pay the first time, so why not a second time?
This trend of paying for everything, and then being insulted with a derisory salary has found its way into the European job market, it has however stopped at the entry level positions because experienced crews wont stand for it. If you pay for the 330, be prepared to pay for the 787, and be prepared to reap what you sow in terms of salary and benefits.

:ok:

(As an aside I practise what I preach, I recently turned down a job offer back home in NZ on the basis the company wanted me to pay for the type on my license)

[polemic]

Agree with haughtney, entry level paying seems entrenched. Don't pay for widebody international endorsements, this statement applies to those already flying jets(onus of rejecting the flying on those that it should be on, experienced pilots, not just those trying to get the first big break). As I would think that companies would like experienced people on international ops.

Agony nothing is known yet, wait for the rumours to stop and mud to settle, shouldn't be too much longer.

[Agony]

Woomera and others,

Thanks for the advice, there are many different facets to "where they go from here".

Polemic, I think your second paragraph is the clue, I'll wait for the dust and rumours to settle before getting too excited,

Thanks:ok:

[UNOME]

Maybe....... "Where to go from here?"

I was banned for two weeks for raising the Jetstar/= Woomera ire.

Leave all things QF and Jetstar alone and your thread will survive.:ok:

[Woomera]

I was banned for two weeks for raising the Jetstar/= Woomera ire.
Leave all things QF and Jetstar alone and your thread will survive.
Cobblers. A few of facts for you all to consider:

None of the Woomeras are employed by Jetstar;:rolleyes:
None of the Woomeras are employed in QF Mainline, and have no interest in protecting either company;:rolleyes:
Threads will be closed when they drift off topic;:suspect:
Threads will be closed when we determine they are getting too personal/raking over the same old rubbish. Simple; :suspect:
Items 3 and 4 are completely within YOUR control. Therefore it is up to YOU to keep the aforementioned items in the back of your mind BEFORE you press the 'submit' button.:suspect:

Woomera (Eastern States) :cool:

[haughtney1]

Woomeras, 99 times out of a hundred Im right behind the moderator decisions, on the one to close the previous Jetstar thread Im not...we all have opinions, this is a rumour website & Danny set it up as such. I realise its a tough job, and plenty of times your damned if you do and damned if you dont, I think you got it wrong on this one.:ok:
Cheers H

[UNOME]

Jetstar International AIRLINE is the "red hot" (or Orange hot if you like) and yet each Thread is closed and/or moved to General Aviation.

Not complaining, just pointing out what seems obivious. Many of the "rumours" have yet to be fleshed out.

So please don't ban me again :ugh: (or at least this time give me one warning?) :ok:

Here is some interesting news...

The HR/ OPs dept at Jetstar apparently knows/ suspects the true idenity of the people who have said anything untoward about the airline....therefore??:{

Methinks, time for to start a Thread on VB International...bye from me.

[ITCZ]

Agree with haughtney, entry level paying seems entrenched.
You might be wrong there. Not-so-little bird tells me that NatJet have reversed their decision to have new hires pay for their endorsement (ok its not an airline but it is a jet operator). A 146 FO I know there was one of seven pilots hired back in April salary sacrificing $30000 each in endorsement costs. Last week NJS announced that new hires would be bonded, and that the seven 146 pilots would have all the money they paid thus far refunded over the next three pays, and they would be offered employment contracts at the same conditions and rates of pay as existing employees with the addition of $25000/3yr reducing bonds payable if they leave NJS within 3 years of initial appointment.
Reason? Not attracting the quality of applicants the company desired, and "plain not right":ooh: :ooh: :oh:
So there it is -- Sunnies/Easterns lost the cream of the crop to Rex (didnt have pay-on-entry and they got the better turboprop candidates), and NJS weren't getting the quality of applicants they wanted for their contracts. Endorsement costs scrapped in favour of bonding.

[haughtney1]

That would be fantastic news.....its sounds like Pilots are recruiting Pilots, rather than accountants looking at the cost of everything...and seeing the value of nothing, as usual :hmm:

[Trash Hauler]

I have read a number of reports citing a shortage of airline pilots worldwide over the next five years.

http://www.flightinternational.com/Articles/2006/01/31/Navigation/177/204346/Pilots+wanted+.html

I believe that this will drive pilots salaries back up in the medium term and it is why the airlines are desperate to drive down the salaries now. If the delta for an international captain decreases by 30-40% the long term cost base (of pilots) for the airline will remain relatively static even when the predicted shortage raidly drives wages back up.

So why are the airlines able to drive pilots wages down in the short term? Two factors in Australia:
1. Abyssmal GA wages - the delta to the new airline wages is still acceptable even when paying for an endorsement.
2. Little solidarity of the pilots as a group. - An age old issue among pilots so it seems.


So what is the solution: Pilots have to hold out as a group: Don't pay for endorsements and don't accept $140K (captains) to fly an A330. ($185K plus overtime should be targeted).

Cheers