Cabin baggage v hold baggage weight restrictions

[PAMCC]

Leavinng the cheap airlines such as Easyjey, Ryan Air etc aside, as they have their own agenda on baggage allowance. Can anyone tell me why we seem to have done a complete reversal on baggage weight allowances?

Several of the main schedule airlines have changed their stance on these allowances over the past couple of years.

As I long time traveller, I have seen times change from the point where many pax carried on as much as they could, to strict limitations on the number of pieces and weight of hand luggage. Apart from the restricted loading space for these items, we were told that weight was a major safety factor in the overhead bins. This all seemed perfectly reasonable and logical. Around this time, on short haul flights, hold baggage allowance was stricktly regulated to 25Kg and cabin baggage to 5Kg.

Suddenly, without warning some airlines altered this to 20Kg and 10Kg respectively. I know this, as I got caught out with baggage weighing the previous allowance and a hefty charge for 5 Kgs of excess hold baggage. Other airlines rapidly followed suit.

Is this sudden change in weight allowance a sop to the lap-top carrying buisiness traveller? Has putting all this extra weight in the overhead bins suddenly become safer?

I've been very curious about this change.

Does anyone else, like me, pack for a two week business trip with a pair of scales weighing every item so that they don't get that whacking great excess charge? Then sit next to someone on the plane 6 inches taller and with a body that overflows their seat into yours?:bored:

[apaddyinuk]

Well do you remember the days before cabin bins were of the closing variety?? They used to be an open rack such as on trains where you could only stow your coat, hat box and perhaps a little rucksack or handbag!!!
The early generation bins as we know them were simply these little shelves with a retrofitted gaurd door on it. Now I guess its a case that as technology improves they have become stronger and capable of support more weight!
Now my airline allowes only 6kgs per pax in Y class, 8 kgs in C class and 10 kgs in First. I believe the reasoning is the density of the cabins.

[bealine]

Big Airways have written to the CAA asking for the precise rationale behind the "CAA plated weights" on overhead lockers. This is in respons to EasyJet and Liar Air, and now FlyBe allowing any "reasonable" weight into the overheads!

Due to the flagrant disregard to cabin baggage safety these cowboy airlines are displaying, the commercial pressure we are under to adopt an "anything goes" attitude is enormous!

Either the CAA must strictly enforce the plated weights by revoking a few airlines' licences here and there, (and Liar Air, although Irish, can still be banned from UK airspace if the CAA so chooses) or they must abandon the idea of cabin baggage safety altogether! Quite an ultimatum!

[slim_slag]

Has putting all this extra weight in the overhead bins suddenly become safer? Was it ever dangerous in the first place?

[apaddyinuk]

Well slim slag, overhead bins usually when designed are designed to only survive a certain number of g-forces should the airplane hit the deck with a full load inside. So yes, it is dangerous if they are over loaded....Have you not seen the photos from the BD Kegworth wreckage where it is clear to see all the bins ripped from their fixings and collapsed onto the passengers. Imagine twice max allowed weight in an overhead bin when an aircraft does a heavy landing, it may not come out of its fitting the first time but it might after the tenth such landing!!!!

[slim_slag]

I am sure the bins are only certified to withstand a certain force, the Kegworth crash comfortably exceeded that number and the bins would have come down even if empty.
In the States you can usually carry on bags under 22x9x14 inches, is there any evidence that this is dangerous?

[PAMCC]

My point was, that during the period when strict adherence to cabin baggage weight was enforced, pax were continuously told that it WAS dangerous to exceed the resticted weight. That's why I asked the question.

KLM changed their allowance in Y from 5kg to 10kg.

However, I have a friend who flies from AA who tells me that, for years, they have been trying to restrict cabin baggage weight as they have been told it is unsafe to overload the overhead bins and that this is still that airline's posture on this matter.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I'm sure I've seen max loading notices on some if not all bins.

I wondered if the pressure to increase cabin baggage weight allowance came from the business pax, although I can see that there is pressure from what the low cost ailrines are allowing as well. However, KLMs change seemed to come long before the cheap airlines started to change their allowances.

[PAXboy]

I have seen the 'max weight' labels on many a/c lockers and these are the "CAA plated weights" referred to in the thread by bealine.

The only check that I have ever seen made on an o/h locker is Will it close? No one attempts to verify that two bags of identical size are both within the weight limit. Every a/c and CC that I have seen (in Y or C) works on the It's in there - so it must be OK approach. The ONLY time that a question is raised is if the CC see the pax struggling to lift the bag and then step forward.

I may be wrong and perhaps CC are vigilant and see everything but I doubt it. So, I shall sit to be corrected but sit in the window seat as far away from the leading edge of the lockers as possible. :ouch:

[Kosher Class]

I think commercial pressure does come into play in some way here. With regards to the dangers, I'd imagine there is a chance that a bag may fall on someone if the locker were to open during take-off or landing (which does happen, especially on older aircraft). Whether the impact of a 5kg bag falling on one's head is any less than that of a 10kg bag is debatable (I really don't know), but I'd imagine anything heavier would cause serious damage.

A more visible problem is excess hand baggage. BA's Club Europe allowance is 9kg per bag (2 allowed) making an 18kg max allowance. The simple fact is that if everyone brings the max allowance on an Airbus 319 which has been configured to 60 or more Club seats (happens all the time) many bags will end up being offloaded by the irate cabin crew, which incurs delay and inconvenience to all concerned.

Safety is no doubt the primary issue, but there are practical reasons for reducing the limit, in my opinion.

[slim_slag]

So, I shall sit to be corrected but sit in the window seat as far away from the leading edge of the lockers as possible. :ouch:
Are you at greater risk of being killed by stuff falling out of a bin or of being killed because you get trapped by the aisle seats/passengers? I don't know which seat is more dangerous, but why do you assume that the window seat is safer? Are large heavy bags which are wedged in more likely to fall out than small light bags that are floating free? Airline travel is so safe does it really matter? Wouldn't you be better off making sure the passenger next to you has his seatbelt on so they don't land onj your head when you hit turbulence? How many times do you ask them to do that?

[Globaliser]

Are you at greater risk of being killed by stuff falling out of a bin or of being killed because you get trapped by the aisle seats/passengers? ... Airline travel is so safe does it really matter?Personally, I think I'm at greater risk of being hurt during everyday ops by heavy stuff falling out of the bin than I am of being killed in an accident by being trapped. As I understand it, the former happens every day, but as we all know the latter thankfully only very rarely. And it's precisely because airline travel is so safe that the remaining real risks are worth guarding against.

But personally, I also like the window seat because I can sleep without being disturbed, so I reckon I'm in a win-win situation here. :DWouldn't you be better off making sure the passenger next to you has his seatbelt on so they don't land onj your head when you hit turbulence? How many times do you ask them to do that?I do this too, when I see it. And I get them to put their bags right under the seat in front for takeoff and landing, if the cabin crew haven't spotted it and put it right. And all the other stuff, too.

[chornedsnorkack]

Personally, I think I'm at greater risk of being hurt during everyday ops by heavy stuff falling out of the bin than I am of being killed in an accident by being trapped. As I understand it, the former happens every day, but as we all know the latter thankfully only very rarely. And it's precisely because airline travel is so safe that the remaining real risks are worth guarding against.


How many passengers die in non-hull-loss events on board, compared to those who die in hull losses?

[Globaliser]

How many passengers die in non-hull-loss events on board, compared to those who die in hull losses?I don't know, but I don't even want to be hurt in a non-fatal cabin baggage accident - and there are plenty of those.

[PAMCC]

We seem to have lost the tread of initial question here. Although the discussion of which seat is safe can be interesting in itself:)

Does anyone know why the weight restrictions have changed? Given that so many things cannot be carried in cabin baggage these days and have to be put into our hold baggage, I'd prefer to have the weight alowance there.

Or maybe some airline loaders have refused to lift anything heavier than 20Kg.........but then above that allowance would never be allowed.

My bet is on the business traveller and their overnight bag (can't be bothered to wait for baggage) and lap top, pushing this the other way.

[PAXboy]

I am sure that there are many reasons for this development but one of them, as I understand it, has come from the USA but NOT just C-pax.

As US carriers introduced Hub-and-Spoke, the txfer times got tighter and tighter. Many pax found that their checked bags did not make the conenction, so started hauling everything into the cabin to prevent this. The carriers acquiesced because, otherwise, they would lose the pax. After some years, this became established practise and even with point-to-point sectors, they still do not check the bags.

This practise has, naturally, spread to the international connections and everyone wants to get everywhere faster! :ugh:

[Final 3 Greens]

Imagine twice max allowed weight in an overhead bin when an aircraft does a heavy landing, it may not come out of its fitting the first time but it might after the tenth such landing!!!!
I bet you five quid, Paddy, that BA do not have a single airframe that has endured 10 heavy landings, as defined by your engineering dept.
As for Kegworth, if a 73 is flown into a motorway embankment at or near Vref, I'm not surprised that the overhead bins failed - what do you think the deceleration forces were?
I'm with Slim on this one.
Now my airline allowes only 6kgs per pax in Y class, 8 kgs in C class and 10 kgs in First. I believe the reasoning is the density of the cabins.
FYI, BA allows 18kg (40lbs) total weight in F, maximum of 9kg (20lbs) per piece, 12kg (26lbs) total weight in C/J, maximum of 9kg (20lbs) per piece, 6kg (13lbs) total weight in Y - thought you might like to know :}

[WHBM]

I have never ever had my cabin baggage weighed. And if I buy something heavy after check-in, in the duty-free, there are not even scales at the gate to weigh it.

Furthermore what is the purpose of the plated bin limits as the cabin crew (or anyone else) have no way of knowing the weight of what is up in there.

Many business pax travel with laptop computers nowadays and those most certainly cannot be subjected to the checked baggage handling machinery. It is a good thing such pax are generally the high-payers and thus this has become permitted. Many carriers officially allow a computer in addition to any hand baggage allowance. I occasionally travel with two laptops (on one occasion with three, and that was in a Do328 turboprop ! ), a situation which the regulations do not envisage but which is always accepted.

When it comes to passengers bringing what should be checked baggage in to the cabin with them (which like many here I deplore) the airlines have some responsibility here for why pax attempt to do this. Firstly for the way the delivery times of checked baggage hav been allowed to extend so much (on BMI at Heathrow arriving from Dublin I have waited for baggage delivery for longer than the flight duration). Secondly for scheduling tight connections at hubs and then not having the systems in place to handle baggage transfers. There should really be two MCTs, one for those with checked baggage and one for those without. US airlines are particularly bad at this, some of their reservation systems will not allow any connection except to the very next departure, even where the second sector flights are frequent. Once the bags misconnect it seems some carriers put them into a "dead pool" that is not even looked at until overnight.

It would be good if carriers were required to report publically what percentage of their transfer baggage misconnected, it would focus minds on it.

[V800]

The greatest danger on US airlines is from overhead lockers filled with full size wheely Samsonite suitcases belonging to the cabin crew. I have seen one locker on a 777 burst open on landing in Houston, fortunately the case stayed in.

[striparella]

Hand Luggage is the bain of my life!!!:ugh:

Hand luggage should only be the things you need for that flight. In this day and age your checked in bag is normally waiting for you by the time you clear immigration, so why take everything PLUS the kitchen sink in the cabin??

I've seen heavy bags falls out and causes injury - it's not pretty.

My airline is 6kg and enforced at c/i, the gate and also the crew are fantastic and wont take anything on board they think is too heavy.

Wheelie bags should be banned in the cabin. If it's a full flight - room in the over head locker is seriously restricted!

The British are the best when it comes to hand luggage!!

[Final 3 Greens]

Hand luggage should only be the things you need for that flight. In this day and age your checked in bag is normally waiting for you by the time you clear immigration, so why take everything PLUS the kitchen sink in the cabin??

I can't answer for others, but the way airlines treat luggage is certainly a factor for me.

In the last year I flew about 60 segments (20-25 less than a normal year, as I was lucky enough to work near home more than usual.)

In those 60 segments my baggage was mislaid twice (once for 11 days, the other time for 2 days.)

Additionally, three suitcases were damaged beyond repair. These were not cheapos bought at the local market, but were top of the range Samsonite cases.

Apart from the sheer hassle factor of having to get PIRs, correspond with customer service departments, get repair/replacement certificates from my local dealer (who puts me in his Xmas card list), I had to attend a meeting with a major oil company wearing a polo shirt and chinos, because there is no plan B when you arrive an an airport after the local shops have closed on a Sunday and have a 8am appointment the next day.

Just yesterday, my suitcase came off the carousel with a broken top frame and despite paying nearly GBP450 for a business class ticket for a short European trip, the best the airline can do is send replacement to my home in five days, meaning that I have to continue my journey with a broken case that will only be accepted on a limited release. They will not authorize me to ask the concierge at my hotel to obtain a replacement for "cost control" reasons.

So the bottom line is, wherever possible, I utilize my full cabin allowance.

If the airlines are really concerned about this issue, then the way to achieve behavioural change in business pax is by giving us a decent service, not wrecking or losing our baggage.

[slim_slag]

The greatest danger on US airlines is from overhead lockers filled with full size wheely Samsonite suitcases belonging to the cabin crew. I have seen one locker on a 777 burst open on landing in Houston, fortunately the case stayed in. Yeh, biggest bags always appear to have 'crew' labels on them. If you think about it the wheelie type bags are extremely unlikely to fall out of the bin, it's the small bags which are going to topple out - the ones we are told are OK. So where is the evidence that large bags are dangerous?
In this day and age your checked in bag is normally waiting for you by the time you clear immigrationThat's funny

[Final 3 Greens]

Don't forget the killer crew stilletos.

The CSD on a big airlines flight dislodged a colleague's shoe from the bin and with unerring accuracy that 617 squadron would have been proud of, hit the side of my head whilst I was asleep on a flat bed.

To say it gave me a shock would be something of an understatement.

[CD]

Big Airways have written to the CAA asking for the precise rationale behind the "CAA plated weights" on overhead lockers.
Quite an easy answer to that actually. It's part of the aircraft type design and certification. The JAR/FAR/CS/CAR 25 design standards for transport category aeroplanes are all pretty much harmonized so while I'm including links to the Canadian version, they are all the same:

Canadian Airworthiness Manual Chapter 525 - Transport Category Aeroplanes (http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part5/Standards/525/menu.htm)
525.561 - Emergency Landing Conditions - General (http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/RegServ/Affairs/cars/Part5/Standards/525/sub-c.htm#525.561)
525.787 Stowage Compartments (http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/RegServ/Affairs/cars/Part5/Standards/525/sub-d.htm#525.787)
525.1557 Miscellaneous Markings and Placards (http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/RegServ/Affairs/cars/Part5/Standards/525/sub-g.htm#525.1557)

EASA Certification Specifications For Large Aeroplanes CS-25 (http://www.easa.eu.int/doc/Agency_Mesures/Certification_Spec/easa_cs25_amendment_1_12122005.pdf)

FAA Part 25 - Airworthiness Standards: Transport Category Airplanes (http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFAR.nsf/CurrentFARPart!OpenView&Start=1&Count=200&Expand=6#6)

[PAXboy]

F3G
If the airlines are really concerned about this issue, then the way to achieve behavioural change in business pax is by giving us a decent service, not wrecking or losing our baggage. Magnificently stated! The airlines cannot, of course, give you any such assurances or implement any changes! For the simple reason that they have no control over the handling of your luggage.

I must say that the behaviour of bag handlers does amaze me. There have been many occasions (all around the world) when I have found myself seated in the row adjacent to the conveyor belt loading the bags. (Naturally does not apply to container loaded a/c) and I watch the loaders lifting the cases and throwing them on to the belt. I mean really Throwing them onto the belt. Even though they know the pax are watching through the windows! I have frequently seen my own bag thrown onto the belt, or off again, as the case may be.

At my local, LTN, they specialise in this. :suspect:

[WHBM]

The airlines cannot, of course, give you any such assurances or implement any changes! For the simple reason that they have no control over the handling of your luggage.

The airlines have every control over this. Because they employ the handling agents, and the handling agents employ the baggage handling staff.

As long as the customer-supplier relationship between airline and agent is managed by what accountants call "bottom-rightism", that is just looking at the total figure in the bottom right-hand corner, and trying to get this down to the minimum figure, customer service aspects not being looked at, then this problem will continue. You have to manage the situation properly.

[PAMCC]

One awful time my spouse and I both had to wait three days for our luggage to arrive in the US. This was pre 9/11 and we were asked to give the airline our lock combinations so that Customs could open if required. We were assured by the airline that they would have an airline member standing by to unlock the cases if required and then re-lock them. They left the suitcases unlocked. When we finally got them there had been major theft from both. There was nothing big or expensive in the case, but adding up all that was lost, it came to a lot; opened half used bottles of aftershave and perfume, other cosmetics, Any unused items for washing, shaving, tooth care, spare camera films (pre digital days), any nice looking clothes (light weight jackets and even underwear), small (but too heavy to put in cabin baggage) gifts for my friends, toys for their little girl. Also it was my spouse's birthday while we were away and I had all their birthday cards (family and friends) in my case. I had ensured that none of these were sealed, in case my case was searched. Yet all had been ripped and I mean ripped, from their envelopes......someone obviously hoped to find money.

We had flown from chilly UK to California.............so needed light clothes and bathing gear........The allowance given by the airline was paltry. It took ages and much argument to claim all that we were allowed. Nothing made up for the thoughts of those grubby hands going through our personal items. All of this was very, very distressing, but made more so by the attitude of the airline to all of this.

So now I take as much as I can into the cabin....................but would prefer to put it in the hold.

I think it is time that the airlines, became more responsible for our luggage. If they had to pay out more than they do now, they would soon look after our belongings better.