Bankstown airport owners annoy me!

[Scion]

I was unpacking an aeroplane from a container , it had no wings on it and was outside the hanger for 5 minutes so I get a bill for "Airport usage" for $6 then increased to $20 for monthly minimum.
These people are the pits
No pun intended.

[PLovett]

Scion

All designed to drive GA operators away.

If one was cynical it would lead one to believe it is being done with the idea of driving all aviation away so that the owners can go back to the Fed. Govt. and get the clause preventing conversion to non-aviation use removed due to the lack of aviation activity. :mad:

In a related matter does anyone know if the owners of Aeropelican were able to get the local shire to allow rezoning of Belmont? :mad:

[TurboOtter]

Send them a cheque for $6 and a note saying "monthly Maximum, next monthly maximum sent next month"

Plov I totally agreee, but why cry about it now, just look how many of the flying schools stood up when then closed down the cross strip. It's not about safety anymore, it's just about bucks.

[Like This - Do That]

PLovett

That's a cynical view, but not unrealistic. But it might just provide us with a way out. The BAL consortium will probably recoup its entire BK/HOX/CN outlay on the redevelopment of HOX alone. If the consortium were to be given freehold title and open slather development right to the current BK site the profits would be astronomical. BK is about 300 hectares - imagine how much that must be worth!?!?!?

On that basis, they could fund the acquisition of land and construction of a bare bones GAAP airport somewhere else in the Sydney basin, away from complaining neighbours, before it's too late. In 10-15 years there will be no more land left.

I'm not sure how you'd set up the ownership of the new facility - some kind of trust with GA-friendly caveats? Not sure.

[rmcdonal]

So you move your airport away from the city so no one complains about the noise. 15 years later people move next door to the airport and complain about the noise. There is a reason the land near airports is cheap, its BECAUSE of the noise.:mad:

[Like This - Do That]

rmcdonal

That's true, but the ONLY land available for such a venture is well beyond the current fringes. That it might also be clear of aeroplane noise averse neighbours is an added bonus. The primary consideration though, is cost. There simply is no more spare land closer to the rest of Sydney.

It keeps filling up, and the NSW pollies are too frightened of backlash from people sitting on 5 acres semi rural blocks (who are licking their chops in anticipation of a rezone & subdivision) to stop the sprawl. That's why it would have to be done ASAP, before the land has all gone.

Some sort of buffer zone (a mix of parks, golf courses, playing fields, light industry) would also have to be included. So rmcdonal I agree, you'd have to do it in such a way that 15 years later NIMBYs couldn't force it closed.

Cheers

[rmcdonal]

That buffer zone sounds like a great idea. By the time you get a new airport it well be so far from Sydney as to be usless for any commercial flights. :hmm: :hmm:
Wouldn't life be a whole lot easier if we just stopped flying? :} :mad:

[Scion]

We all agree that the bottom line is that the owners wish to turn Bankstown into a mega shopping area thus devalueing both Liverpool and Bankstown as their carparking is inadequate.
Is there no way of mobilizing the business interests in Liverpool and Bankstown to defeat this devaluation of their assets by stealth.
You are correct that the developement at Hoxton will probebly cover their aquisition costs so they are going to make a fortune.
Now with Coronbong , or however you spell it , gone , Hoxton nearly gone, Warnervale threatened and Bankstown deminished by the closing of 18/36 really the Government requires to wake up to it'self!

[gaunty]

All designed to drive GA operators away.

Typical of the BS thinking that has killed or is killing this business.

So when you get a parking fine the Council is trying to drive motor cars off the road, as is the Parking Meter, is that what you mean.??

Who the **** do you think is going to pay to provide and maintain the facilities you use.

The Govt decided user pays for everything. One way or another we all do.

There is no doubt that the sale of any of the airports was a retrograde step, but you should have a look in the mirror first.

Move Bankstown? That would definitely be the last straw for GA. Who's going to drive another 30-40 minutes to go for a fly. Not many I would imagine.

Jandakot has its problems with neighbours, but it is now closer and more easily accesible than it ever was due the suburban and road development around it.

It's privately owned, not without problems that seem to have been resolved, more movements than Bankstown and thriving. It's just a matter of the attitude of the tenants and owners towards each other.

The airport owners are active members of the Jandakot Airport Chamber of Commerce. which has all of the tenants as members.
First Tues in the Month breakfast meeting at 7:00am, one way or the other any problems get worked out together. They need us as much as we need them and we go from there.

[Biggles_in_Oz]

Gaunty So when you get a parking fine the Council is trying to drive motor cars off the road, as is the Parking Meter, is that what you mean.??
Who the **** do you think is going to pay to provide and maintain the facilities you use. I may be misinterpreting your point, but at Bankstown I have to pay around $4k per year for the privilege of using the runways and parking on the open grass. (awright, they do mow the grass every now and then).

It's a monopoly situation at Bankstown and by gradually making conditions too expensive for GA the owners can redevelop that land for commercial and possibly residential use.

Seems that Jandokot has a more enlightened set of owners than does Bankstown.

[gaunty]

Biggles_in_Oz

Nah mate you got it in one.

What I didn't add to my post was the maintenance of the road system for cars and all of the other bits that come out of their, fuel excise, licensing, fees , rates and local, State and Fed taxes.

I suspect if you were to do the sums you are paying more than $4k to park your car at home and use the roads. ??

Have you seen the purchase agreement and the conditions placed upon it, it must be on the public record somewhere

If I recall correctly they cannot turn it into a real estate development and kick GA out and I think they are also required to submit to price controls.

Be that as it may, wherever and whoever shifts and builds another airport why do you think it will be any cheaper.

Problem in this country is that the locals city or country do not see any value in having "a GA airport near you".

Who is responsible for getting that message out??

Orange ?? are doing pretty good job as are many other airports, you just gotta get together on it.

Is there a BKK Airport Chamber and if not why not.?

If everyone helped to make the airport more profitable for the owners then every body wins.

The Govt wont buy it back so you gotta do something about it beyond yelling and complaining about the owners.

[Animalclub]

I know Midway, Chicago, is on a bigger scale but many years ago local residents were successful in decreasing the use of this airport and drove the major carriers away. Then they realised that the local area was dying due to unemployment and the resultant social demise of the area.

The same committee that did all they could to run the place down did an about turn and campaigned, successfully, to get the major carriers back.

Could this apply to those airports to which you are refering? I don't know these airports.

[Wheeler]

So Gaunty, all they have to do at BK is get together in a Chambre, get a bit of dialogue going and suddenly the decline will be reversed because they will think of incredibly creative ideas that mean aviation will become the sensible economic winner - just like in Perth?
Well, Sydney just aint Perth. The Sydney real estate dynamics cannot work for GA. That land is almost priceless now and its been solld to bunch of determined entrepreneurs for a couple of hundred million bucks, who's goal is to make money. The peanuts they get from GA income don't amount to much in that scenario and are probably barely worth collecting, and diminishing as everyone leaves. The high handed attitude one reads in the BAL monthly 'news letter' (comes with your bill), together with the min $20 monthly fees don't not do much for PR either. You only have to look at the big parking area outside the old Navair hangar, that used to be full of aircraft, (only a couple with grass growing around them left now!) - and read the 'we want your business' letters from struggling BK Lame's to see whats happening. I've heard of one business on the southsde that is paying $4000/ month for some very modest premises - and being told to get out because all of that side is to be redeveloped for businesses that can pay real rent!
I found this on the AF website the other day - sort of sums it all up I guess..
There is a section of the airport community who believe the airport should become a recreational facility. This idea flows into the thought that landing charges and rentals should also be kept to a minimum. Unfortunately for those who dream of this environment it is not going to happen. Archerfield Airport was privatised 7 years ago in June 1998. Archerfield Airport Corporation is a private business that has to make a commercial return from its investment. One of our key challenges is to be able to fund the maintenance and replacement of existing operational facilities. If you are looking for a recreational airport in a subsidised environment then I suggest you look for a sponsor or maybe a Government body that may oblige. At Archerfield Airport we are operating on a commercial basis, in a security designated environment, 12 kilometres from the CBD of Brisbane and we are open for business.
If that's Brisbane, what chance has Sydney got? Hell, we don't need BK anyway. All we need is about a 1000 m in the bush somewhere around Sydney, and a few sheds.....
I will say one thing for BAL. Their support of Angelflight is wonderful. Well done for that BAL! (Probably one of your biiggest private users now!)

[PLovett]

I know the geomorphology is totally different (Gaunty, you taught me that one :} ) so please no flames but the US AOPA (I think) did a study on the worth of aviation to communities in the USA. The figure was staggering (just don't have it to hand right now).

Now in Australia we have been on a user pays, sell off non-core government asset kick for some time (and it reaches into core activities - just look at the civilian contractors working in the defence sector).

But, as was recently pointed out to me by a well known figure in aviation circles, who is the aviation user? The GA charter operator who is having to put their hand in their pocket for increasing fees and charges or a 72 year old pensioner who lives in a country town and has never been on an aircraft in her life but who gets her prescribed medication delivered by air freight?

The point is that all tiers of government need to be educated that transport infrastructure in Australia is of value to all Australians whether they physically use it or not. As such it should be supported by all Australians and not subsidised by the few people who actually physically use those facilities. Am I calling for a return to government support, yes, but they are using my taxes to do so which I believe is a proper use of them, not to support some budget surplus which can be "spent" on some pork-barrelling exercise come election time. :mad:

[gaunty]

PLovett you'll get no argument from me on any of that and I'll jopin you on the ramparts any time.

Problem is we would be very very lonely even if we were to round up every one with a pilots license and who owns an aircraft in the Sydney basin.

Unless you can think of something very clever to catch the public imagination.

I suspect the major demographic around Bankstown airport is stretching to pay the rent, and when they are not at the Leagues on the pokies are in the local chinese resataurant.:} Aviation what's that, can you eat it??

Wheeler

So Gaunty, all they have to do at BK is get together in a Chambre, get a bit of dialogue going and suddenly the decline will be reversed because they will think of incredibly creative ideas that mean aviation will become the sensible economic winner - just like in Perth?

Cuppla questions;

1 Do they have a Chamber or suchlike,

2 Have the residents of the airport grouped together to do anything other than to beat up on the owner.

3 Have they ever got together to promote aviation and the social and economic benefits to the area in a rational and proactive manner free of anti-owner polemic.

No? i didn't think so, but lets hear it, if they did.

AOPA US, tell me something I don't know. I am very aware of the AOPA US study and the US community attitude to the local community airport, They truly understand the meaning of "build it and they will come". I have been more than a little bit involved in new aircraft sales over a lifetime in business.

You are wrong about the Sydney GA real estate dynamic, Jandakot is smack dab in the middle of the hottest suburbs for rising values and desirability in that corridor.
The freeway system plan that was laid down yonks ago is now joining up around it and areas that were previously "undesirable" are now becoming sought after. But it is protected by a semi rural residential buffer amongst other things. Cant reverse that externally at Bankstown but it can be achieved within the boundaries.

If you have been to any of the very active airfields GA and Airline right on the edge of, or in the middle of complex urbanisation you will see what I mean.

Sniff you not, our Chamber by a visit from a delegation to Canberra was pivotal in the reversal of the last charging attempt, and generally raising the temperature in Canberra on a number of issues that others claim credit for. They commented directly that we were the only such representation and that they were surprised at the level of activity we revealed.

We don't care who claims credit for what, but if ALL the secondaries had effective Chambers who spoke from a common concern, and it is, representing a million and a fair bit movements and I dont know collectively several billions of revenue and maybe 20,000 jobs and 100,000 or so knock on votes.... well thats a fairly big constituency dont you think.
Bigger by several hundred thousand miles that those who claim to represent us.

Maybe BAL are hiding in plain sight, no point in talking to the aviation people they all know what is the plot. A strong Chamber or whatever gets it out into the community and shines a very powerful light into the bushes. The dearth of aircraft on the hard cannot be laid at BALs door it goes much much deeper than that.

We can't unscramble the egg but we sure as hell can turn it in to my favourite most heavenly meal of all time. Scrambos made with double cream, steamed asparagus and smoked salmon with chives and hollandaise on lightly toasted pagnotta bread. Freshly cracked pepper and Maldon salt flakes to taste and a dark roasted Colombian coffee on the side. :cool:

[Scion]

Sorry to have started such a spirited polemic from Mr Gaunt but the fact now is that the biggest conurbation in Australia is rapidly loosing the facility to train young enthusiastic folk to fly.
It will be impractical for a lot of young folk to travel to Cessnock or where ever.

To fly is to dream like the Bach's and Magee's of this world and to remove this from the Sydney basin is a crime against the spirit of this nation.

I am prepared to be "flamed" for this from the more politically active as being too "impractical" but as Rutan said we do this for the "F" word , we do it for fun.

[PLovett]

Scion

No flames but unfortunately there is little response but to get political.

The history of GA airfields around Sydney has been long and mostly a story of failure. At home I have a very old book called "Two Men In A Flying Machine" which recounts the exploits of two Australians who flew a Monospar aircraft from Sydney to Biggin Hill in the UK in the early 1960s. The first few chapters include quite a bit of detail about attempts to establish an airfield on Sydney's north shore and the bitter disappointment that followed. Nothing much has changed.

The Australian aviation community has a poor record of combining to defend its interests to the extent that I am sure politicians look upon us as "toothless poodles". It would seem that once proud institutions are now reduced to bitter feuding over who they represent rather than what they should be representing.

Gaunty's Jandakot chamber would appear to be one of the few success stories in GA where a group has seen the need to combine to defend threatened interests. More strength to them but I wish the rest of us could learn that lesson without the need to reinvent the wheel every time.

[gaunty]

Scion

You open up with,These people (BAL) are the pits


then;
We all agree that the bottom line is that the owners wish to turn Bankstown into a mega shopping area thus devalueing both Liverpool and Bankstown as their carparking is inadequate.


you then ask;Is there no way of mobilizing the business interests in Liverpool and Bankstown to defeat this devaluation of their assets by stealth.


I point out what a succesful example, which BTW has just changed ownership for $45 million with a commitment to develop the spare Real Estate as a nodal Business, light industial and commercial park, that has a new runway approved and starting the process for construction.

The Chamber has yet to meet the new owners but I am sure they will be as procative as the last, they actually have no option, it's called symbiosis and synergy.

And you call it polemic???? Personally I don't care what you label it but maybe you should rethink your attitude and get a Bankstown Airport Chamber of Commerce started and the first action would be to ask BAL to join, AS WELL AS all of the non aviation businesses.

The advantage to them is that they have a single point of contact and the advantage to you is you have concerted action instead of the usual single issue guerilla wars and skirmishing run by individuals who may or may not have an agenda that benefits the most all in the same room enjoying a meal together.

That way you all become part of the solution instead of part of the problem.

It also makes it hard for them to look you in the eye, whilst they skate around isues. Either way your attitude to them will be reflected right back at you, it's a Law of the Universe.


PLovettI wish the rest of us could learn that lesson without the need to reinvent the wheel every time. :ok::{

[Foyl]

The unfortunate reality is that the airport owners can make much more out of the space in Sydney by encouraging retail outlets rather than aviation business or the private punter. One only needs to look at the current plan for KSA to foreshadow what the future of YSBK looks like. KSA's becoming a shopping mall with a couple of runways squeezed in between the buildings, and goodness knows it'll only be a matter of time before someone decides that those nasty runways are far too dangerous to have near a shopping centre. :hmm:
I'm glad to hear that BAL is supporting Angelflight, but it doesn't make up for the fact that there are a number of (non profit) aviation community organisations that are refugees that the museum because their free space was withdrawn (eg the air league).
Gaunty, I love the idea of the Chamber, and I know the local council is very supportive of the airport. But despite that, and I hate to be a doom and gloom merchant, I really think they would be voices crying in the wilderness. Look what happened to Hoxton Park. :sad: :{

[Scion]

Mr Gaunt,

Perhaps you have missed the core of the problem here or perhaps you cannot help yourself.

Our free enterprize, market forces masters sold a publically owned asset to a monopoly. May I repeat a monopoly!

They are allowing them a free hand.

There is a Bankstown airport chamber of commerce and it can do nothing in it's negotiations nor can Bankstown council as the land is still deemed federal and free from their planning regs. There is a smokescreen in place to appear to be doing the "right" thing and part of this is their Angel flight involvement. They charge other vol. orgs. such as the RFDS high amounts for their open days.

They are not very nice people!

The tone of your contribution to this cry of the heart is to defend the owners in their wish to maximise their returns balanced by a chamber of commerce/ users group but this does not apply in such a monopoly situation.

They have a monopoly if you didn't catch the first bit!

Hugs and kisses

Scion

[gaunty]

Scion

First, pull your head in, my user name here is gaunty who you think I may or may not be is irrelevant and banning from here usually follows attempts at "outing". Posters here are heard on the merit of their argument not on how you would have them perceived.

Our free enterprize, market forces masters sold a publicly owned asset You wont get any arguments from me on the "sale ", that is a political fight that has been lost.

A pox on Maquarie Bank the millionaire factory, made by siren cries, to dumb pollies who get fat directorships when they retire, on how to turn public assets into money by making the public users pay. Try your NSW toll roads and public highways, which now cost several billions more to run, guess who pays, than when they were part of the Govt Main Roads. At least you have alternative roads, but guess hwo's going to hare to buy the "new" roads back to bail out the new owners.:{ I digress that is State this is Federal which is a much more difficult cat.

to a monopoly.
The same but different monopolies that own the Primary Capital City Airports, Archerfield, Moorrabin, Parafield and Jandakot, I guess.:rolleyes:

Neither do any of the local Councils have any planning influence, in fact Perth Airport owners are currently in the courts with the Local Council about a mill or two of rates owing on Federal Land.
We are having the same problems with Jandakot, but we are dealing with that at State level.

I haven't, but have you read or can you obtain an copy of the "sales" agreement and legislation. It might be interesting in what it might reveal to you and what does and does not constitute a what you call a "free hand".

I don't profess to know the answer but it would add some facts to the discussion don't you think.

You say They are not very nice people! maybe, but if you are suggesting that it is a means to getting rid of you all it is not very smart thinking on their behalf. They have capital and debt to service a long and it will be long war of attrition cannot possibly be reimbursed by any rise in value during the period.

It seems to me that by your lights, even if it is a rational case, defending the owners is tantamount to sedition even anti-GA, a hanging offence.
With respect that is exactly the attitude that divides and has us where we are today.

The reality is the airports and a number of other things that we agree should not be are now privatised. Nothing can be gained by railing against it and we do not have the public on our side, mostly as a result of that and Dick Smiths continuous exclamations of patent BS, looming disaster, unsafe skies and criminal ATCers.

The Chamber? Are ALL the residents members, or is it just a them and us BAL bashing org or soapbox for the usual suspects and professional malcontents.

We have our first breakfast meeting for the year and expect the usual large roll out and hope to see reps from the new owners there.

We and I mean them and us collectively are addressing the CASA cost issues and have been succesful in sorting out the ASA airside charging grab.

What affects us affects them, it's simple.

It's called attitude if you didn't catch the first bit.

[Scion]

As you can see Gaunty, things keep rollin along at YSBK

As I said they are not very nice people!

[Wheeler]

Well said Scion!

I wonder if Perth would be so lovely with a change of government to NSW style political expediency and short term economic rationalism. Maybe (for now) someone over there sees the true economic worth of infrastructure. Maximum payback from every square inch of dirt is all they understand here - and that of course leads to maximised inflation of land values too - its all good for the shareholders here you know.

If only they had the sense to restrict airport land to use for which it was intended, maybe these get rich quick merchants would not have had the free monopolistic hand to make whatever $$ they can, however they like.

I have not been to Jandakot for a year or so but I don't recall seeing the biggest hardware store in the southern hemisphere, a massive bus depot or every state of the art Maccas, Taco Bell, KFC or whatever -or plans for a Westfield several private schools. Maybe thats what they need to get them all paying real rent and charges and hence providing real rates of return for that bit of WA desert out there. All they seem to do is build hangars and runways. How can that make a rate of return like a Maccas?

Our experiemce with Runway 18/36 should make then think. The nice new shiney runway could easily be ripped up if someone non-aviation related offers enough money!

[R555C]

I first learnt how to fly in 95. And now I can’t believe how much the industry has died! In particular BK. Its just so sad, morals down, its down right bad, aircraft looking tired, everyone strapped for cash, etc etc, the list goes on.
Aviation in Australia I believe should be treated as an essential service, just as Telecommunications is with Telstra and its compulsory community obligations.

Australia is too large a place with too few people to expect the industry as a whole to "user Pay". Aviation is part of this country and has helped it become what it is today.
What do we do to get General aviation back on track? I don’t know but it’s a complex issue.

Firstly I don’t think we should be paying for the inefficiencies of CASA. Now everything to do with licensing gets sent to Canberra, even simple things like change of address forms cannot be actioned at your local office. Instead it is send to CB for actioning. Your local office is nothing more than a post box and a money collecting agency. Why do they exist at all!

Security at regional airports is a joke. ASIC card for everyone to supposedly protect the RPT operators. Now seeming a Levy was applied for ANSETT why can’t the medium to large RPT operators pass on a levy to help finance the changes that are required to enhance security. (Help pay for our ASIC’s).Why should the smaller guys be disadvantaged more than the big guys! Anyway, most regional airports you can just walk on to the airfield anyway!

The lists of costs and in-efficiencys goes on, CASA, Air Services, DoTARS. I believe that Aviation needs to be subsidized to a certain extend, not 100% but make the industry viable and allow the interest in aviation within the community to continue in this country. Too bigger distances and too few people!

And now the final straw, the cost of our facilities, such as BK. The fact that an essential service has been privatized is just a joke. The infrastructure should remain owned by the people of Australia for the people of Australia. (I sound communist now).

Long term goal, Bring CASA and ASA, back together call it the CAA. Keep the major airports owned by the federal government and have it run by an organisation called the FAC! Have district CAA offices that can answer your questions, process licences etc, its not that hard!

We as an industry have probably made mistakes in the past and allowed this to occur to a certain extent. We are all good (at least some of us) at running our aircraft, but we are poor at maintaining a stance and achieving business and political goals, maybe we just love flying too much, and have our heads in the clouds.

Maybe we need to show the Government a lesson; lets all decide to fly into KSA on the same day, book slot times and just clog the airport.

Much of what I have said is probably just crap, but I just feel so strongly that aviation GA is going to die in Aus , and all we will be left with is the Q Empire and VB. Nothing else at all! Join me and write to your local Federal and state member, Federal transport Minister Warren Truss, and the PM. Let them know what is happening, tell them what we want.

But again sorry to rave on, just don’t know what to do…..

[Pass-A-Frozo]

First, pull your head in, my user name here is gaunty who you think I may or may not be is irrelevant and banning from here usually follows attempts at "outing". Posters here are heard on the merit of their argument not on how you would have them perceived.



Not true Gaunty.. take a look at responses to me over the past 12 months.
That's a load of it. Posters here are always heard on who people percieve they are. Hence why people constantly call me a public servent or a student, or unemployed, or a QANTAS wannabe, or a manager, or not a pilot etc. etc.. the list goes on... (all because they don't like my view point.. ie.. I don't agree so you must be part of a group that I don't respect)

Lets be honest here... posts on here are heard ONLY on who people perceive you to be!

[Scion]

Gaunty,
What is happening in Perth?
Is this similar in any respect to Bankstown?

[The Messiah]

The fight at YSBK was lost years ago in the days when Roy Coburn used to single-handedly take on Howard Knox with the issues at YSBK for the benefit of everyone and with the support of no-one, circa '90, and now it is just too late, and sadly the residents have no-one to blame but themselves and their apathy.

No-one is sadder to see YSBK in its current state than me.

[OzExpat]

Now there's a name I haven't heard in a REAL long time.
Not since I left Sydney Airways in 84.
Anyone know whatever happened to him since then?

[Scion]

Roy has unfortunatly passed away some time ago though prior to his passing he recovered some tail parts for my Comper Swift for me. As far as I know his death was due to a malignancy though I cannot be quite sure.

On another tack Gaunty championed the cause of the owners of YSBK to make a return on their investement and we have heard but little of this for a while.

Howard Knox was a gentleman , certainly compared to the goings on recently at YSBK.

[wdn]

not exactly sure what angel flight is, but you don't really need to know do you?

the mere fact that BAL is helping them publicly gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling all over. thanks BAL, you're the best. :D

(where's ray martin when you need him - he was the master at this)