Home to Duty - Proposed management buy out

[nodelay]

Don't take the carrot

Average HTD of £25 p/m equals a buy out of £850. That's just 2 yrs and 10 months of HTD. After that you get - NOTHING. (However the company does save a tidy sum)

[SilentHandover]

But on the other hand management will be within their rights to remove HTD without our consent, so if we refuse we will get nothing. Seems like quite a good deal to me.

Or so I am advised by my union rep.

[radar707]

Haven't seen anything about this one, when did that appear?

[TATC]

From what i hear in rumours etc Home to Duty was requested by the unions with tongue in cheek not thinking we would get it. We did.

Not all units currently get Home to Duty Payments - Luton Tower for one I think

Management can give 6 months notice to withdraw Home to Duty Allowance and we would receive no payment.

To me the buy out on offer seems a very good deal - rather get almost three years of payments as a lump sum than nothing at all

[BALIX]

Well, I'd take the carrot. Home to duty milage is a complete anachronism and how it has survived so long I'll never know. It is only worth washers to anyone who lives within a few miles of work and why should the company subsidise those who choose to live a long way away?

Anyone remember the good old days when we actually had to claim it shift-by-shift? 4p a mile - same rate as now only with additional admin costs...

[eastern wiseguy]

Anyone remember the good old days when we actually had to claim it shift-by-shift? 4p a mile - same rate as now only with additional admin costs

Yes ...and LHG ! That dates me!

[BEXIL160]

" I certify that on the dates covered by this claim I used my own vehicle for these journeys"..... Yep, dates me too:uhoh:

BEX

[BALIX]

Well done Bex, I'd forgotten the little submission we had to write on each form. It was a hell of a dilema when you had to borrow the missuses car to get to work, wasn't it :confused: :confused: ;)

As for LHG and other 'additional' payments, interesting to see that the latest pay offer seems to be heading back down the road of paying for a bit of this, a bit of that... More forms to fill in, perhaps?

[chiglet]

izzit "tax free?"
or for ATCOs only?
watp,iktch

[SilentHandover]

Chiggy

I am advised by my PCS rep that it applies to us ATSA's too. The payment is taxable and non-pensionable.

[ukatco_535]

Must admit not heard anything about it -

Although in the great scheme of things it is a small amount of money per month, it seems quite a sneaky way of doing things considering the pay deal has not long been published.... surely this should have been mentioned in the deal??

I can't believe that it has just been mooted in the past week - it has taken 2 years to sort the pay deal out and even then it has been put to us late.

Or is this the first time that management have been able to make a descisive descision without far**ng about for months on end?? Knowing the capabilities of our management - I doubt it; This idea must have been floating around for ages, whilst the pay negotiations were happening.

It seems like a case of the management going behind our backs.


why should the company subsidise those who choose to live a long way away?
.

Is this a case of "I don't get it, why should you??" - (merely playing the Devils Advocate with that comment). It is a payment we are told about in T&Cs - if people choose to live close to work, then good luck to them.... I for one will choose not to live too close when I move to Swanwick - the house prices are going to increase with such an influx - why should I get less house for my money just to live close??

Yes it is all about personal choices, but thats not the point.

Yes, it can be withdrawn with 6 months notice - so why be so underhand?? :} :}

[Standard Noise]

Considering you've had a good run of luck up to now and bearing in mind it could all go wrong from here on in, the banker is offering you 850 pounds, it's time to make a decision, deal or no deal?

[flower]

Having HTD itself doesn't particularly bother me, it is a bit of an anathema in todays workplace, what does bother me is why this wasn't included in the latest pay deal, where has it suddenly come from ?
It feels as if every little perk that ATC may have had is being taken away by stealth.

[Barry Cuda]

Apparently it's all to do with making £1.5 million savings in the CP2 budget and therefore NOT linked to the pay deal... It will be subject to a seperate ballot at some point in the near future.

[BALIX]

.
Is this a case of "I don't get it, why should you??" - (merely playing the Devils Advocate with that comment).

Well, your devilishness, I can assure you it isn't anything to do with jealousy. If it was I'd live in Prestwick and have a go at people who live in Troon as well as those who commute from Glasgow. I just feel that HTD is a relic of a bygone age.

Does anyone know of any other organisation that pays an allowance to its employees merely for turning up to work? Well, apart from pilots...

[ukatco_535]

The military do in some cases........

But thats not really my point - it just seems, as Flower says, that the management are trying to slip it through the back door when everyone is thinking about the pay deal.

Although not that large an amount of money even if on top whack (£44.60 before tax); it does become significant to those on the full HTD when you consider it against the cost of living pay rise we are being offered.

(Granted we get an uplift of one spine point in April - approximately £1500 per annum or £125 per month pre tax but then take £44.60 off that and it starts to erode the pay deal even further)

So in that instance; those not on HTD are gaining in the long term if it gets binned because any pay deal is to them, what they will get, not what they will get minus HTD

[63000 Triple Zilch]

When HTD was first introduced in 1974 it was as an inducement to LATCC to change from a 4 watch to 5 watch system. There was a lot of opposition to working AAOMMNNSOO and most preferred to work A M/N S O tha advantage being that you worked 18 hours in 24 0745-1245 and then 1945-0745 !!! It was calculated on the difference between the private car rate [business rate] and the public transport rate. The rationale was that the new shift times would mean that you could not use public transport in order to get to and from home on all the shifts. Currently the Business rate is 40p a mile and the lower rate is around 14p [not sure exactly]. For 18 months the allowance followed this formula starting at 2.2p per mile and by 1976 was at 4p per mile! Then came the oil crisis in 1976 and the CAA froze the allowance at 4p. This was because the difference between the 2 rates was increasing rapidly. It was agreed that this was a short term measure and as soon as Govt pay policy permitted they would reinstate the difference!! 30 years later they have not yet got round to hiking HTD up to the 26p per mile that it should now be at
Well there is a bit of background information from an old wrinklie that was part of the IPCS [ATCA union] that negotiated this deal. Incidentally as an ATCA who lived in Reading and worked at LATCC the HTD was equivalent to 25% of my gross pay in 1975!! How times change!!!

[Legs11]

is £850 being offered to everyone, or just those who receive HTD?

[SilentHandover]

Everyone get's £250, then you get an amount based on how much HTD you receive making a total of just over £1300 before tax as a maximum.

[BALIX]

is £850 being offered to everyone, or just those who receive HTD?

Nope. It is £250 plus twice your annual allowance. So those who live next door to work and can't be arsed claiming will get £250. I get £11.89 per month so will receive £250+£285.36. Those on the full whack of £44.60 get £1070+£250. All taxed of course. And also asuming I read the notice right...

I will lose out after a smidgen under four years but I will still be voting for it as £300 in my mit is better than eight quid a month. Especially when the management could conceivably withdraw it anyway.

[I'm not joking sir]

Have they indicated when the vote for this or payout would be?

[SilentHandover]

Votes in by Feb 8th I seem to recall.

IMJS can you claim HTD in a country with no cars just horse and carts??

[Ali Bongo]

The ballot papers for the HTD 'buy out' will be issued after the conclusion of the pay ballot, if it is a 'yes' vote.

If the pay ballot is a 'no' and they have to renegotiate pay then the HTD ballot will be delayed until after that vote.

To find out how much you will be 'paid' before tax under the proposed buy out. Look at your November pay slip multiply your HTD by 24 and add £250 et voila your pre tax offer :)

[vintage ATCO]

Everyone get's £250, then you get an amount based on how much HTD you receive making a total of just over £1300 before tax as a maximum.

Not quite. Luton and Southampton do not get HTD and therefore will not get the buy out.

[Spamcan defender]

Hi Folks,
Was looking at HTD on the intranet the other day.....didnt know it existed until that point. Question is (I couldnt see any answers in T&C's), are ATCO T&D eligible or only for you valid lot?? :confused: :)
As I say, no hint on the 'net to say one way or t'other.
Anyone.......

Spamcan

[TATC]

Hi Folks,
Was looking at HTD on the intranet the other day.....didnt know it existed until that point. Question is (I couldnt see any answers in T&C's), are ATCO T&D eligible or only for you valid lot?? :confused: :)
As I say, no hint on the 'net to say one way or t'other.
Anyone.......
Spamcan

it depends if your unit is in receipt of the HTD pauments. I was eligible when I was training

[Legs11]

I currently receive HTD, but will soon be transferring to a unit where, apparently, they do not receive it. Will I still be eligible for the bigger pay-off, or am I about to be screwed over?:ouch:

[terrain safe]

With regard to this payoff, why not just give everyone £300 a year extra on their salaries, this would be pensionable and everyone would get the same. BTW I don't think that we should agree, after all why should we give up somthing that is a 'perk' for a one off payment. Just my unimportant thoughts.

[Gonzo]

As has been pointed out, and as far as I know, HTD can be abolished at any time by NATS. I can imagine that's what they'd do if the vote was no.

[Barry Cuda]

I currently receive HTD, but will soon be transferring to a unit where, apparently, they do not receive it. Will I still be eligible for the bigger pay-off, or am I about to be screwed over?:ouch:


As I understand it will be based on your November salary so you should be ok....


Note the word "Should"!!!!!!!!!

[Flaps ten please]

Do we know if this HTD "deal or no deal" is just for our annual allowance or will our claims for extra attendance travel (overtime days) be included/void as well?

[TATC]

Do we know if this HTD "deal or no deal" is just for our annual allowance or will our claims for extra attendance travel (overtime days) be included/void as well?

Overtime days mileage claims are not Home To Duty. they are additional attendances payments and are not part of the HTD agreement

[Flaps ten please]

Thanks TATC :ok:

[Hootin an a roarin]

I vote we keep HTD.
As an ATCO with a good few years left (I hope!) in the long run I will lose out. We are hearing differing opinions up hear and I need to get a definitive answer from my union rep. According to my understanding and the employee handbook it states that changes to HTD need to be negotiated. Does that not imply that management cannot simply then refuse to pay it? Sounds a bit like scare mongering on their behalf. ;)

[TATC]

I vote we keep HTD.
As an ATCO with a good few years left (I hope!) in the long run I will lose out. We are hearing differing opinions up hear and I need to get a definitive answer from my union rep. According to my understanding and the employee handbook it states that changes to HTD need to be negotiated. Does that not imply that management cannot simply then refuse to pay it? Sounds a bit like scare mongering on their behalf. ;)

Having spoke to my union rep it appears that management only need to giv 6 months notice of withdrawal, which would mean we would lose out more by not taking the carrot.

[Hootin an a roarin]

According to the Employee Handbook

Foreword 1.3 Page2 of 215

"These terms and conditions form the basis of the individual's Contract of Employment and are subject to collective bargaining under arrangements set out in NATS doc. No.3 entitled 'Procedures for Relations Between Management and Recognised Trade Unions' (commonly known as the 'Green Book').
So surely management can't simply withdraw the payment and my Union rep agrees. In theory they can tell us we are getting a 20% pay cut but we wouldn't stand for it nor would the Union. They would have to negotiate something else. This saving is basically to help NERL with the savings they must make at the detriment yet again of the airports!

[TATC]

That would depend on the wording of the original Home to Duty Agreement, and wether there was a clause in it which states that management could withdraw it with 6 months notice - which is what my union rep told me there was

[ukatco_535]

So Hootin and a roarin'

is it the ATCOs who work at the area centres that are really to blame?? Or do you just have a chip on your shoulder??

It is not a Tower/centre issue, regardless of money savings; it is a management/coal face worker issue.

I get sick of hearing poeple from airports bleating about how hard done by they are in comparison to people at centres. Yes, some airport ATCOs are underpaid, but this issue affects us all (apart from the couple of places that do not get HTD at the moment).

There was a comment recently on a thread about the pay rise, stating that it would be voted in because the Centres won again, whilst the airports were getting screwed! How the heck that was worked out considering its a percentage deal across the board, I don't know.

It's those sort of pathetic comments and in-fighting that must make the senior management rub their hands with glee.

[nodelay]

UKATCO 535, as the starter of the thread I certainly did not want this to turn into an ACC vs Airport issue, which it is not. I was not aware that management could give six months notice on withdrawing HTD, I beleive (and it depends who you talk to) that this was a negotiation with management (albeit many years ago) and anything other than what we get now would also need to be negotiated.
If that is the case I would vote against the buy out, becuase, irrespective of how much or how little you get, in the long run you are worse off. Take the carrot and it's gone forever. Maybe there is a union rep out there who can get a definitive answer on this.

[Hootin an a roarin]

UKATCO535

"is it the ATCOs who work at the area centres that are really to blame?? Or do you just have a chip on your shoulder??

It is not a Tower/centre issue, regardless of money savings; it is a management/coal face worker issue."

It's a huge chip thanks due to the continuous frustration in having no say when it comes to voting with the current set up with this Union!!!! We should have all stuck together before the Banding system was brought in which didn't benefit all, now we feel you have a cheek telling us to stick together.

However I was simply making the point that the airports run a very tight ship with very little money being spent yet we make the profit and are continuosly told that we are given a pay rise on the coat tails of NERL, yet this HTD vote is to help NERL save 50 million quid and we all suffer from it.

Keep the HTD!!!

[PPRuNe Radar]

However I was simply making the point that the airports run a very tight ship with very little money being spent yet we make the profit and are continuosly told that we are given a pay rise on the coat tails of NERL, yet this HTD vote is to help NERL save 50 million quid and we all suffer from it.

Sorry Hootin' , Airport services don't make 'the profit', as you call it, alone. They make part of the overall profit for the whole company from which everyone benefits. For 2005, NERL made an operating profit of £114M, Airport Services made an operating profit of £10M.

This came after offsetting an operating cost of £330M for NERL and £82M for Airports. So buck for buck, NERL run a tighter ship when it comes to profit against costs spent. Or a better return if you want to put it that way.

That's for 2005, all available in the NATS published accounts.


Back to the HTD issue. If there is a 6 month withdrawal clause in the agreement, then I say grab the money and run while we can. If there is not, then either let's leave it as it is or let NATS come back with a substantially better offer. :ok:

[Hootin an a roarin]

I've read the accounts thanks

"After pre-tax losses of £80m in 2002 and £29m in 2003 the group reported a modest pre tax profit of £1.8m in 2004. This year, however, the group reported its first significant pre-tax profit of £69m."

We do need this 6 month clause clarified ;)

[terrain safe]

Airport services don't make 'the profit', as you call it, alone. They make part of the overall profit for the whole company from which everyone benefits. For 2005, NERL made an operating profit of £114M, Airport Services made an operating profit of £10M.
This came after offsetting an operating cost of £330M for NERL and £82M for Airports. So buck for buck, NERL run a tighter ship when it comes to profit against costs spent. Or a better return if you want to put it that way.
Or they overcharge massively and CP2 is to redress that while NSL is more commercially realistic and has been for many years:p :p

[TATC]

I've read the accounts thanks
"After pre-tax losses of £80m in 2002 and £29m in 2003 the group reported a modest pre tax profit of £1.8m in 2004. This year, however, the group reported its first significant pre-tax profit of £69m."
We do need this 6 month clause clarified ;)

If you look at the the time period 2002 to 2005 the group is still 38.2million in the red (109million in losses and just 70.8 in porifts)

[GT3]

And some airports in NSL make a high proportion of that profit....

[the hunted one]

Well, looks like NATS management's "divide and conquer" tactic is working! :rolleyes:

[Hootin an a roarin]

"Well, looks like NATS management's "divide and conquer" tactic is working! "

If you boys would have stuck with us a couple of years ago and voted NO to the banding system then we would not be divided. However as I have already stated the 'lower' grades feel demeaned and let down by our brothers at the top who are now bleating 'lets stick together and not let management divide us'

TOO LATE!!

I'm just waiting for the routine reply of 'Move to a different unit'. Not easy these days and life's not that simple.

[Turn It Off]

I currently receive HTD, but will soon be transferring to a unit where, apparently, they do not receive it. Will I still be eligible for the bigger pay-off, or am I about to be screwed over?:ouch:

As your being cocked about on the roster m8 i'd suggest you demand it.

Even if you are a vandle :}

[radar707]

No new HTD claims are being accepted, and will be frozen at November 2005 levels, so if you move or moved after November 2005, your HTD remains frozen at that previous level.

Therefore a claim for 30 miles each way in November 2005 remains in place even if you move to a unit where HTD is paid and you only live 1 mile away.

[radar707]

Anybody know when we're supposed to be voting on this?

[Legs11]

No new HTD claims are being accepted, and will be frozen at November 2005 levels, so if you move or moved after November 2005, your HTD remains frozen at that previous level.
Therefore a claim for 30 miles each way in November 2005 remains in place even if you move to a unit where HTD is paid and you only live 1 mile away.
...hmm, now that;s interesting!:ok:

TIO? Vandel? Me? It just gave way!;)

[flower]

I have received my ballot paper in the post today, just thought I would mention it in case some have the same problem with getting their ballot papers as they did with the pay ballot.

[ukatco_535]

Thanks flower

I, no doubt, will have to chase up my union rep.

What date does the voting close??

Thanks for the info

[Over+Out]

Vote closes March 22nd

[ukatco_535]

Thanks for that...

So April pay then if it comes in... Can't see any way around keeping HTD at the moment, I think they have us over a barrel

[Not Long Now]

Not really over a barrel, if the membership votes no then we keep HTD.
Notice the letter says
"In order for the proposed changes to have contractual force it will require that the majority of the respective Prospect branches and a majority of PCS members vote in favour."
So if we take that exactly as it's written, that requires an overall majority of the membership to accept rather than a majority of those who return a vote?

Given the turn out for the pay deal, I'd say HTD will be around for a while yet, unless of course Prospect decide that's not actually what they meant...

[ukatco_535]

I have not seen the letter, but was of the understanding that the Management could take HTD from us anyways if they give us notice.

I would rather kep HTD until I retire, but I am led to believe it's not an option, one way or theother.

Some clarification needed methinks, before we vote.

Any union bods or contract specialists out there who could comment? Can management take it off us?

Is this offer a nice way of them doing it? They know if they were just to take it (as may or may not be their right), there would be a lot of bad feelings.

[flower]

Whilst loathe to give up any of my salary there does have to be a realism in that we need to as a company make massive savings.
Although concerned we may go into free fall over our perks the HTD one is I am prepared to give up as in reality who does now get paid HTD in other professions.
The savings made apparently equally 1.5 million

[ukatco_535]

Flower,

I understand where you are coming from and partly agree it would be a small price to pay as a shareholder of sorts ourselves.

What galls me tho is that this is being talked about now, just after the pay deal. It seems a sneaky way of doing things.

[Not Long Now]

If HTD can be withdrawn anyway then why are we being offered money to agree? Can UHP be withdrawn too?

[ukatco_535]

Not Long Now

I think the UHP is safe - it will change so that non 24hr units do not get 100% but in the main, it will not be taken away.

I think HTD is less of an 'institution'. I also believe that if the management were able to take it away anyways, and did so arbitrarily, they know they would be very unpopular.

This 'offer' may be a way for them to make the savings in the long run without putting peoples noses out of joint.

Maybe someone with more of an idea than my idle guessing will step in with a definitive answer

[BobAgg]

Can any of the enlightened answer me this...... (please)

I moved unit last August, where I received maximum HTD.
At my new unit, I did not claim HTD for which I was entitled roughly £30 pm, due to administration failures!

So, in short, am I gonna be getting goosed for circa. £720 before tax?

Cheers!

Bob!

[Not Long Now]

Go see your manager as soon as, and get him to contact HR or whichever bunch of clowns it is running it today, and ask politely to have it back-dated to your move date. Can't hurt to ask. My last move got lost in the internal mail somewhere, and finally got it sorted about 10 months after the fact. Money was backddated and turned uo the next month.

[BobAgg]

Think I'll do just that NLN!

Cheers!

[Van Der Hum]

The savings made apparently equally 1.5 million

Or to look at it another way, Paul Barron's bonuses for the next three years.

[ukatco_535]

My Union Bod has informed me that they CANNOT take HTD off us without consultation.

Therefore, unless you retire within the next two years, it is in your interest to vote 'no' to scrapping HTD.

[Hootin an a roarin]

My Union bod has informed me that in theory they can do what they like to us i.e. enforce a pay cut etc. but this wouldn't happen as we would not put up with it. Are we all going to go out on strike because HTD is withdrawn? I think not.

I should vote no because as UKATCO 535 states I have a good few years left in the job, however don't be surprised if we say no and then this is used as a bargaining tool in the next pay negotiations were we may be offered a percentage at the loss of HTD. It's gonna happen and HTD WILL be phased out if not now then very soon.

[White Hart]

I'm going to vote 'yes', and take the money. Why? For four reasons...

1) Being an ATSA, I'm not even sure how long I will be remaining in employment with NATS.
2) I am advised by our PCS Reps that Mgmt can remove HTD payments whenever they like, as long as they give HTD recipients 6 months' notice of their intentions.
3) The two Unions are giving out conflicting information (as usual :hmm: ), and will be unable to come up with a workable plan to save HTD which will be to everybody's liking.
4) If the issue of HTD becomes a bargaining chip in any future negotiations, then it will invariably follow that I and all the other ATSAs will not do as well out of the deal as our ATCO colleagues - because when it comes to money, we never do.

Give me the money, give me the money...:ok: :ok:

[nodelay]

The 6 month HTD withdrawal by management I'm sure is a red herring and will not happen. It must be negotiated with the union, which is what this offer is and where we are now. Management are desparate for us to accept it, hence the reason why it is being offered to people who do not claim it, (out of interest, I'd like to know why the union has recommended such an offer to its members?). Is it because they(union) think by showing flexibility over this issue, it will put us in a good position when the pension issue comes to a head?
Back to HTD. Accept it and you will need to shout 'give me the money' as loud as you can becuase in a couple of years time you'll be out of pocket! (Unless you're days to go!!)

[cdtaylor_nats]

All of us who don't get it are happy to vote yes and get £250 for nothing.

[TATC]

My Union bod has informed me that in theory they can do what they like to us i.e. enforce a pay cut etc. but this wouldn't happen as we would not put up with it. Are we all going to go out on strike because HTD is withdrawn? I think not.
I should vote no because as UKATCO 535 states I have a good few years left in the job, however don't be surprised if we say no and then this is used as a bargaining tool in the next pay negotiations were we may be offered a percentage at the loss of HTD. It's gonna happen and HTD WILL be phased out if not now then very soon.

So if managemtn did just stop home to duty then all they would have to negotiate would be its replacement. As you said would people strke just for HTD, I dont think so. The union would then be in a situatio nwhere it would have to put an offer from managment to its memebers that would be along the lines of "Oh well you voted no so management are offering this, we think it should be accepted"

[ukatco_535]

Hootin,

I am kinda in two minds about the yes or no vote. I would rather vote yes to let the management know we are reasonable people so that when it comes to the pension vote, they will realise there will be no negotiation.

However I would also like to vote no because i have many years to go, and I also think that discussing HTD after the pay deal is done and dusted is a tad sneaky by the manangement to say the least.

Typical ATCO, I can't make a decision just yet!!

TATC

People will not strike for HTD, but thats no reason just to give it up!

It is also very divisive of the management to offer people who do not get HTD for whatever reason (unit does not give it or they live too close) a bung of £250 if the vote is in favour of scrapping. They of course are being encouraged to vote 'yes' because they will gain money for nothing!!

[055166k]

This measure is only aimed at the workers; remember that the recent pay package included car/allowance for managers and associated grades as well as the family BUPA bung. Rather complicated to pay both HTD and trying to integrate that with the car package and also trying to determine who/where/when can still claim HTD.
[If I was a manager I would have dumped this years ago in favour of a staff subsidised car loan/purchase scheme].

[Hootin an a roarin]

ukatco_535

We usually disagree on things but I fully agree with your last point. I'm also in two minds and should really vote NO.
However I believe HTD will be phased out at some point but unlike TATC don't think management will need to or have to come up with a replacement. It will be included in the next pay negotiations and we will be sold down the river as usual with the loss of HTD with the alledged gain of a % or £1 on LV's etc which we maybe would have got anyway.
My main gripe is if we are so intent on saving money then why the hell are we paying people £250 who aren't receiving HTD in the first place and why are these people included in the vote.

[TATC]

ukatco_535
We usually disagree on things but I fully agree with your last point. I'm also in two minds and should really vote NO.
However I believe HTD will be phased out at some point but unlike TATC don't think management will need to or have to come up with a replacement. It will be included in the next pay negotiations and we will be sold down the river as usual with the loss of HTD with the alledged gain of a % or £1 on LV's etc which we maybe would have got anyway.
My main gripe is if we are so intent on saving money then why the hell are we paying people £250 who aren't receiving HTD in the first place and why are these people included in the vote.

your probably right about management selling us away in the next pay deal, and I will readily be voting yes to make sure i at least get somthing when.

The reason those who dont get HTD are in the vote is to make sure that they at least get some YES that could make all the difference in the final result

[Mad As A Mad Thing]

Will the ATCO with a backbone please step forward...the rest of you jellies can just wobble around where you are.

Why would anyone except those not in receipt of HTD or retiring within 2 years even contemplate voting for a cut in their terms & conditions? OK so the company has to save money, but that doesn't mean it has to come out of your pocket.

Maybe they can withdraw it at 6 months notice, but if they want to declare war on their greatest asset (their words), then bring it on.

[BOBBLEHAT]

Here here. It's a no vote for me. I've got 25 years to go - 2 years worth isn't anywhere like enough. If the vote results in a 'NO' , management will be forced to renegotiate - they will not just remove it.

[Hootin an a roarin]

"Here here. It's a no vote for me. I've got 25 years to go - 2 years worth isn't anywhere like enough. If the vote results in a 'NO' , management will be forced to renegotiate - they will not just remove it. "

They may not just remove it now but I can see it going in the future with NEGOTIATION over our next pay deal. I have voted No on principal but expect that the overall result will be a YES due to the fact people not recieving HTD are allowed a vote.


"Why would anyone except those not in receipt of HTD or retiring within 2 years even contemplate voting for a cut in their terms & conditions? OK so the company has to save money, but that doesn't mean it has to come out of your pocket."

Because the more cynical of us can see HTD being lost in the long run anyway. The Union are pushing for a yes so when it is negotiated next pay round I can't see them putting up a huge fight and we'll lose then with no money in our pockets. Sounds to me like you haven't been dumped on by the company yet or are very naive. It will happen and then you can become as p****d off as the rest of us.

"Maybe they can withdraw it at 6 months notice, but if they want to declare war on their greatest asset (their words), then bring it on."

All of us stick together? That'll be the day!
:E

[LostThePicture]

What a bunch of awesome negotiators we have working for us in that union of ours. We pay their wages - and they repay us by recommending that we vote "YES" for a poor pay deal and an even poorer HTD "buy-out". Prospect should have made it quite clear to NATS management that anyone not currently claiming HTD should not be included in the ballot. To allow those people into the ballot, AND to offer them £250 for nothing, is appalling. The union have screwed the rest of us twice. NATS management have shown a recent track record for being divisive in every negotiation. Prospect should be zero-tolerant with the management on this - yet twice in one month they have allowed biased ballots to come before us. And then they have the NERVE to recommend that we all hold hands and vote yes each time! The union should, by definition, be trying to hold us together. Prospect are failing miserably.

If the vote results in a 'NO' , management will be forced to renegotiate - they will not just remove it. Pure conjecture I'm afraid, given that they've cleverly offered £250 to people who never get HTD. I would say that represents a majority of staff at Swanwick. Then there are the people who work at units where the HTD scheme does not operate. £250 for them as well. If all of these people vote "YES", as they're entitled to do (it's free money after all!) and collective ballot apathy runs as high as it did for the pay ballot, then HTD is a goner by 22nd March. I will be voting "NO" for all the difference it will make. At least the crumby union will be paying the postage.

Will the ATCO with a backbone please step forward...the rest of you jellies can just wobble around where you are. The ATCOs with backbones should have stepped forward last month and thrown out the pay deal. If the result for that ballot was 64:36, then this is going to be a complete landslide.

Why would anyone except those not in receipt of HTD or retiring within 2 years even contemplate voting for a cut in their terms & conditions? OK so the company has to save money, but that doesn't mean it has to come out of your pocket. Quite right too. We are the ones responsible for making sure that this company even has a turnover to speak of, yet time and again we are being coerced into making sacrifices. Traffic is forecast to increase by 40% this year on some LACC sectors - there's your £1.5M, Mr Barron. I wonder what sort of a pay deal the legions of middle-management desk-jockeys at CTC got this year? If cuts really need to be made, then look no further than Whiteley.......

LTP

Destination 23: "We will have grown into a streamlined, efficient company, which is not top-heavy with vast numbers of overpaid and underworked office staff"

[Radarspod]

Is there a seperate deal for ATCEs and ATCO/ATSAs, or is it an across the board deal? From engineering point of view, I see a resounding yes result, considering no one at CTC gets it - personally, £250 (minus tax) in the pocket is better than nowt. Those engineers at Spectrum House will also lose it when they move down in May, so they are very likely to say yes. And I suspect many non-ops engineers that will move to CTC in 2007 will say yes as they would lose it too.
ps. LTP, we are not all middle management desk jockeys at CTC, some of us look after the systems that YOU need to be (quote) "responsible for making sure that this company even has a turnover to speak of".

[GT3]

I think the deal is the same across the board.

[TATC]

I think the deal is the same across the board.

The deal is the same across the board with different votes for the different unions.

As Hootin says if we reject the buy out then HTD will be removed duting the negotiations for the next pay deal in return for a percentage pay rise. For me the buyout represents over 3 years HTD payments, and personally for me it is better to take it now than to hold on till the next pay deal and get less. Also £14 per month is not a great deal to lose but £400 is useful as a lump

[PPRuNe Radar]

Probably best to continue this in the NATS Forum.

NATS Forum Link (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=214824)