Fresh New CPL's Working in Canada

[Natit]

Hey All.

Just wondering if any new CPL's have decided to head o/s to find that first job - in particular any info about Canada.

Got a mate thinking bout heading off to North America and try his luck there. Obviously there will be some licence conversion (Airlaw etc), but what are the chances like in scoring a job with a fresh CPL in hand over there.

Would appreciate any info..

[zakpeegoodus]

Is this a wind-up?

I went to Canada in 2002 with 1,000 hours, a one year working holiday visa (you need to be under 30 to apply) and a few hundred seaplane. I was extremely fortunate to get work up-north flying a floatplane – I don’t think I will ever beat that for adventurous bush flying. I was VERY lucky.
But if you are not Canadian, with less than 1,000 hours forget it…even then forget it, unless you don't have anything better to do...

I had nothing better to do last year and went to the USA last year - with 3,000 hours, turbine time and an FAA ATPL. I stayed 3 months trying to get work before giving up…Without a green card forget it.

You WILL NOT get your first job overseas. Get some hours in Australia – it so much easier to get work in you own country....Seriously, do you think someone from north America could get a job flying in Australia with a fresh CPL and no work papers?

[PapaLima]

Hmmm.....i got my first job overseas (Africa- 190hrs) so, yeah, anything is possible, think outside the square, go the extra mile, do something different, you never know! :)
Cheers

[turbolager]

What a load of rubbish. One man's bad luck 4 years ago does NOT mean you "will not get your first job overseas". It means he personally had some bad luck in that place at that particular time. Your experience may or may not differ. Plenty of 2-300 TT fresh CPL holders from Australia and NZ scored fantastic first jobs overseas in 2002, where they were paid far more and treated far better than many of the GA options in the Oz scene.
Guess what, in some countries it's actually inconceivable that a pilot would whore themselves out and fly for free.
Never forget just how infinitesimally small and insignificant Australian aviation is, in the global picture.
It's much easier to knock on doors in your home country of course but if you make a very serious effort in researching your options you might just find something worth packing your bag for :ok: happy hunting!

[zakpeegoodus]

Hi Turbolager!

“Plenty of 2-300 TT fresh CPL holders from Australia and NZ scored fantastic first jobs overseas in 2002, where they were paid far more and treated far better than many of the GA options in the Oz scene.”

Good on them! That must be rather encouraging to fresh CPL holders today. Could you please let us know the names of these plenty of fantastic companies where low time pilots may score jobs overseas? I would like share the information with those struggling to find employment. Certainly fresh CPLs need all the help they can get!
I have worked overseas for the last few years, but I am yet to come across these companies.

[Mr. Hat]

Africa possibly. I think Canada is a particularly hard one to crack. I recall talking to some people about it way back when.

Take the opportunity to see our country. Its hard when you are looking for work I know but you will find something if you are persistant enough.

[Fred Gassit]

Canada does offer great scenery and flying adventures but I found the place even more oversupplied and undercapitalised than here, the whole scene has a very similar feel. I'm sure however, that you would find something.
Good luck

[DeltaSix]

I got my first job overseas. Might not have the nightlife I wanted but heck, I clocked up more than 600 hours in the twin.

I started with 250 hours total with CPL/ME/IR - but with 50 hours command time in the duchess.

The job entailed flying small prawns using the duck (BE76) from one island to another where they grow it then re-supply them again in 2 days. One way is three hours flying time. Lots of IFR.

I didn't think I would find one, let alone a twin job. I was happy to fly a 172 if that was the only thing available.

So, go for it.

D6

[zakpeegoodus]

Hey Tom,

To convert your CASA CPL to a Canadian CPL you need to take the Canadian CPL written exam and also a flight test. Note that you cannot do either until you have a Canadian Medical. This can take one month to process after you have seen a doctor – I ended up having to twiddle my thumbs in the Yukon during this time. It would have been much more practical to have obtained the Canadian medical in Australia prior to heading over.

The Canadian theory exam is shorter than the Australian CPL written exam, but it is around the same standard…Air law has various differences.
The flight test was easy, although the Canadian CPL instrument standard is higher than in Australia. I only had 10 hours IFR at the time, I had to do another 10 to meet the 20 hours required by Transport Canada for the CPL.

Good luck, but again, I will eat my hat if you get a job in Canada with 200-300 hours! That is being realistic, rather than pessimistic. Evidently some people have found their first job overseas – but North America is a very hard nut to crack. If you want a holiday, sure go over there, convert your license and knock on doors…But if you are looking for your first flying job DON’T go to Canada. Get some hours then head over…

I e-mailed over 100 companies prior to heading there. Only a few got back to me to say ‘no thanks’. Still, like I said, I was very luck to get work there. There are many jobs that come up seasonally in the north of Canada. However the flying is rather demanding due to weather and mountains. With 1000 hours I was right on the minimum for insurance.

As I cannot reapply for a ‘youth working holiday visa’ I would need to be sponsored to return. In order to do that, the Sponsoring Company has to prove to immigration that there are no Canadians available for the position.

Instead of asking in this forum, why don’t you ask on the Canadian PPrune page where the jobs are in their country for fresh CPLs without citizenship?

[DeltaSix]

Well Zak, you already made your point and from what I have read from your experience it was really a challenge and that was very commendable what you did. It had a lot of perseverance and maybe a lot of Canadian dollars down the hatch for the exercise but don't you think some people ought to find that out for themselves ?..... maybe their luck is not the same as yours, could be worse, could be better. I say do what the Nike motto says : " Just do it " but Natit, take Zak's advise. Nothing in this world is easy but sometimes being at the right place at the right time makes a difference.

Natit, Canada is not the only country you can try. See where your luck takes you. All of us have different doors to open, different countries to try.
I hope you realize by now that being a pilot, employment may not come at the place you like. Good luck bud - happy flying

D6

[Wizofoz]

Met a guy who had just landed his first job with about 300hrs- he was sitting in the RHS of the 737 we were about to fly to Spain!!

If you have right of abode in Europe, you are far more likely to get a job here than in the US or Canada- and it will be RHS of a jet or large turbine.

[DeltaSix]

I agree wiz, same here, a colleague went to Florida to build up twin time, around 250 TT, went to EU, got a 737 type rating, and next thing you know, I get a call at 2am saying he got the RHS of a 737-300.

A small charter company here in Oz, won't even let you touch their Chieftain for those hours. But then again, there is a big difference between having a Captain beside you and flying single pilot IFR in a small twin. But, there you go. At the end of it, who cares, he scored a job.

D6

[slow&low]

same old thing ... neighbours grass is always greener!!

Europeans want to go to Oz to get their first job, and vice-versa!

Mind you... it might be easier to get a job in europe on a jet ..but only if you are loaded with money and decide to pay your way through...
everything, including Type rating and even line training!!! ...all at about 2-3 times the price in OZ! ....but as GA is concerned... I think Oz has far more possibilities for pilots... just think of all the flying that goes on outback.. along the coasts the scenic flights etc!

my 2 eurocents and aussie 5cents worth!!:D

[Wizofoz]

but only if you are loaded with money and decide to pay your way through...


No, not "Only".

For instance, I work for easyJet and they have a Cadet schem which means, if selected, you get trained from ab-initio through to type rating and, if you jump through all the appropriate hoops, you end up RHS of a 737 or A319. You take on a bank guarentee for the costs, which the company pays, whilst you are on a reduced wage.

Similarly, TRSS is a scheme where again you get a type rating no money down, but get paid less for the first few years.

So coughing up wads of cash is not the "Only" way to score a job here.

just think of all the flying that goes on outback.. along the coasts the scenic flights etc!


I'm interested where you actually are as:-

1) There is less and less of that flying all the time, and

2) There are hoards of pilots after those jobs.

[UB6IB9]

in canada there is pretty much 3 options. instruct, work the ramp (anywhere from a few months to a few years before they put u in) or buy a ppc, pcc.

if you want to instruct, count on making anywhere from 10-20k CAD a year if your lucky. you'll log anywhere from 300-1000hrs a year. working the ramp is a popular option too. but it depends which company you work for. ideally you would want to work for a company that will put you rhs in a twin turboprop. i've heard of guys waiting as little as 3 months to move into right seat of a metro, king air, or a pc12...and i've also heard horror stories of guys waiting years. lastly there is pay your way. it's not as popular as say..europe but there are companies around that will let you buy a ppc or pcc on a twin. most likely on piston..like a navajo..but don't bank on building a lot of hrs or moving into the left seat anytime soon. you'll probably only get a few hundred hrs a year and most of these companies pay you PER FLIGHT.....not salay. so if you fly for 6 hrs....you'd get paid the same as a 2 hr flight.

keep in mind that things are really starting to move over here....and it really comes down to being in the right place at the right time. there's also plenty of guys with atpl's and university degrees that still can't find a decent job.

anyways just my 2 cents but like i said things are really starting to move over here so you never know

cheers

[slow&low]

well thanks Wizofoz!

Actually.. could your please give me more info on the TRSS scheme???:D (P.M.?)
is there "REALLY" no money to be paid up-front? Don't you need to give the bank some kind of "security"? what if you have no chash/house ?

The thing I was trying to stress was that everyone thinks it's easyer in another coutry! If you talk to aussies and kiwis they want move to europe cos they hope to get a jet-job.

If you talk to guys from europe, they'd love to go to Oz to build up a few hrs flying (bush/chutes/...just about anything in GA!!) ...before returning to europe with more hrs and so more chances to get their first jet-job!

When I started my licences they'd just implemented the Bloody JAR's... so it meant if I got my licence in Oz as I was planning on doing I had to do the JAA ATPL's all over again (like now if you're low hrs)...and the 50hrs for the IR course... (since then reduced now to 15hrs ...as the add goes ..."hmmm..BUGGER!")

So I know a little about both worlds...I repeat A LITTLE!

I know there's a lot of pilots after those GA jobs downunder... but there are also jobs!...you have to agree with me MORE THAN HERE IN EUROPE!!
everything is so close over here compared to OZ, and well connected by train, or plane...to make General Aviation a very tiny sector of the transport industry...very tiny indeed!
Add to that the ABSURD price of petrol and the IMPOSSIBLE taxation from the governments...
and there you have the reason why I say there is a lot more GA flying going on in Oz!

That said ,as usuall ,if you are in the right place in the right moment,and fit the job....

For example:
I got my first job ...because 1 year before I'd washed that aircraft!!:ok:
(and yes...as you might guessed it was no "A380".the bugger is so big I'd still be washing!!!):D

[psycho joe]

Old farmers saying:

The grass is only greener when its growing on manure.

[slow&low]

;) Classy ... but true!! :D

[zakpeegoodus]

“The thing I was trying to stress was that everyone thinks it's easier in another country!”

Exactly! There will always be exceptions to the rule, but a fresh Australian CPL has far better chance obtaining their first job flying in Australia than elsewhere. If you want to be a pilot don't forget that, If you want to troop off, travel, and look for adventure – then go for that! Just be CLEAR in WHY you are going overseas to look your first flying Job. Is it really because you think you have a better chance at work elsewhere, or is it because you have itchy feet?

To suggest that ‘I am sure that you will find something’ in North America is just being way over optimistic. I am all for encouraging people, but keep it real…Like I said, I could not get anything there last year with 3,000 hours and an FAA ATP - and I looked for 3 months. I was not unlucky. I had a fun time and learnt that I am far better off to put my efforts elsewhere.

I would advise any new CPL to stay in thier country, and drive around the country knocking on doors. Most likely you will only have to do that in another county anyhow, but at least in Australia you can work another job while looking work flying, and you can hang around for months if need be, before you get to fly – you cannot necessarily do that in another country.

As for Europe - I am sure you will find that the low time pilots scoring jet jobs there have EU passports. Or else they are buying their jobs - most likely both.

“easyJet have a Cadet scheme”
Sure they do – but again, aren’t we here talking about opportunities for fresh AUSTRALIAN CPLs overseas?
To apply for the Cadet scheme easyjet says “You must be able to prove your unrestricted legal right to live and work in the EU” In other words, your Australian passport will not suffice!
Besides “you will be required to deposit a cash bond for £60,000”
Then at the completion of the scheme you are “not guaranteed a job”
Sounds like a thick smear fertilizer on that green grass!

Does anyone here read the overseas forums on Pprune? There are heaps of stories of people buying type ratings in Europe and failing to find work. Of course some will be lucky (as you can also read) but the reality is that most will not.
All this is not to say do not try – hell knows I am! Just be careful not to fool yourself and each other…

[tinpis]

And for those that want to stop http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/masturbate.gif the plonker theres pilots jobs in todays NT News

[zakpeegoodus]

Hey! Isn’t life wonderfully ironic!

Has anyone been reading the Canadian pprune page?

“overseas I've heard there are more opportunities abroad for a new commercial pilot such as myself (250hrs)”

At least there are jobs going in NT…Would the Canadian quoted above be better off in Australia?


www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2360775&posted=1#post2360775

[turbolager]

Zakpee, post company names? why should I? You know yourself how much time and effort it takes to get your head around a foreign aviation scene when you're not even in country. If that sounds like hard work to some fresh CPL holder then staying home is probably their best option.

A few quick points on this topic, specifically North America.
1: The grass isnt greener just because its overseas. But as a 2-300 hour CPL, you might notice for example that multi IFR instructor jobs are very hard to come by. And very few instructors in Australia log 100 flight in a month and have someone else brief their students. Yip, things are done differently in some countries.

2: You DONT need a green card to fly in the US as an instructor, a meatbomber, or in some cases as a bizjet or charter/freight pilot. Anyone who says otherwise doesnt know their law very well. If you cant be bothered doing the research you'll have to pay a lawyer or give up.

2: You DONT need sponsorship to work in Canada. If you have a degree you can sponsor yourself for permanent residence. They're desperate for qualified immigrants right now, they're running ADVERTISEMENTS for Fs sake.

3: If you have a degree you could be holding a Canadian passport within 3 years, especially if you can be bothered learning a bit of french or have skills other than flying.

4: If you're anticipating Canadian citizenship but want to fly in the US then check out the NAFTA (north american free trade agreement). Again, no green card required.

5: If (as a foreigner) you want to work in Canada or the US, you're a lot better off with an Aviation Degree. It won't make you a better pilot but it turns out they're actually good for something after all :8

If you really want a green card, go get one. Its not that hard, just takes time and possibly academic study. Got cash, get a lawyer. No money, better start reading :ok:

[UB6IB9]

geez, i couldn't pass this one up........

turbolager,

no offence...but i'd do a little more research. take it from someone who's been there and done that.

for starters....there are very few ways a non citizen can gain employment as a professional pilot in the united states. one for example is via a j-1 visa. which means you do all your ratings with a us flight school and than your allowed to work for the remainder of your visa.

another way is if you hold an unusual or rare type rating. which means before a company sponsors you, they have to advertise for a minimum period of time and than prove to the ins that they can't find an american to do it, and they need to sponsor you. for example...i know of a guy that got in the us because he had over 3000 hrs flying varios warbirds.

and lastly....the nafta agreement isn't as flexible as you think. yes, if you hold a degree, you are allowed to gain an h-1, h-2 visa (unlimited renewals/yearly)...HOWEVER you are ONLY allowed to work in that field. for example...if you hold a degree in agricultural engineering, you are only allowed to work in that field. so you can't claim an agricultural engineering degree on your visa..and than work as an accountant. don't believe me???? i can tell you 3 isolated instances where people from both mexico and canada were asked to leave the united states for that exact reason...of voilating their visa.

i have only heard of one story where a pilot gained work through the nafta agreement. she was a pilot and held a degree in aerospace engineering and obtained work as a test pilot for a light aircraft production company.

and about your canadian comment. yes canada does need immigrants. in fact something like 65% of our population are immigrants. but canada is looking for professionals with degrees and qualifications from only certain countries. don't believe me???? i can name countless of newspaper delivery man, cab drivers, cooks and waiters......and you wouldn't believe some of them. engineers...doctors...ect ect..and none of them can get their credentials recognized. actually, not too long ago there was a newspaper article of a chinese immigrant living in canada. she was one of the chief engineers for the chinese space agency. the newspaper interviewed her on the day china launched a man into space. a few years before china launched a man in space she immigrated to canada........and guess where she was working at the time of the interview......a donut shop!!!!!

anyways just my 0.02 cents...and to the spelling police....i'm a little hung over....so do something better than correct my sentence structure.

cheers

[OCTA]

From what I heard your already there NATIT? Should keep your head down next time you run into wrill in the street! Give me a call when/if you get back to AD.

[zakpeegoodus]

“Zakpee, post company names? why should I?”
Because it is not easy for anyone to get their first flying job - thus if you really do know some good overseas companies that employ fresh CPLs then it would be decent to share the information…I certainly would!

Anyhow, I think we have given enough of an insight some of the trials and tribulations of working overseas…will leave it at!

Best of luck and effort to all!:ok:

[Natit]

OCTA.. sorry man, have no idea what you're on about.

As for the rest of the replies, thanks for taking the time. Is certainly an interesting topic - Aus vs Overseas employment for new guys starting out.

I know there are a heap of opportunities for low time guys in our own country, but it's still interesting to hear of other places where guys may get a start.

[PapaLima]

Job Info-
For guys/gals wanting to go to deepest,darkest afreaka
Charter companies in Maun, Botswana regulary hire 200-250 hr CPLs at the start of the season. Expect to rock up and wait for 3 months, similar to oz i guess. Great flying, 900hrs/year and for the lucky, progression onto the bongo!
I'm sharing this cause of the apparent lack of knowledge from aussies about this place, the kiwis sure know about it!
For more info, check out the maun threads in the africa forum

[asad]

Dear every one,

Can any body help me how can I get a fresh start. I am willing to work any where. How can I build hours.

Your advises are required, please help me.