Too Many Pilots & Instructors???

[novicef]

Am I being starry eyed about wanting to be a commercial pilot?? After reading the various responses about the GA Award and Instructor salaries I might have to reconsider my options. Although I would love to fly commercially. If its difficult to live and the only way I can survive is by working 2 jobs because either there isnt enough flying or the rate of pay is dismal. Whats the point?? Itmakes me very sad that what I really hoped for might not happen.

[tinpis]

You may have to sacrifice a few things is all.
Dont give up
Who needs a regular job a house and a car anyway?

[Trained Monkey]

or food, clothing, or medicine?:eek:

[Daniel Beurich]

Its true its difficult to get to the left seat of a Boeing or Airbus, or even a job in Charter, but its not impossible. Like any good job in the world it jsut takes peserverance, and dedication. People who walk into it with the wrong attitude dont get anywhere. If you realy want to fly, and you do decide to go ahead with it, then dedicate yourself to it. Because theres no bigger waste then after spending all the money and time getting your licence, and then throwing it all away because times are rough. Once you get your CPL the first few hundred hours are hard, and you may have to live life tough but once you get the hours up, life just gets easier. But remember, the dedication, and study never stops, no matter where you go in the Pilot Business. Keep trying and you will get there.

Daniel

[bullamakanka]

Its a long hard road and you definately learn the art of patience. Like DB says the study never seems to stop.

I left the money job for GA and hopefully higher and have had the time of my life.

Would not change a thing.

The most valuable thing I was told by when starting out was, "you are choosing a lifestyle not a job"

Pretty accurate too.

[Vitamin G]

DB and Bulla have it. Aviation is a Lifestyle NOT a job. I've been working in the industry for a year now and the first couple of hundred hours are hard work, although I wouldn't have it any other way!!! I've experienced so many things that other people my age are oblivious to.

Not every office has a 360 Degree view from the window!!

Everyone makes sacrifices in their life, as long as you enjoy what you are doing, its worth it!!

Best of Luck,

VG

[neville_nobody]

I think it is only worth it if you make it to the job you want and can make some decent money from it. The industry has changed dramatically in the past 6 years. The salaries are falling dramatically and now you have to pay to get endorsements.

So you flog your guts out in GA for 3-5 years earning enough to get by, then you get into a Qantas regional. You now pay about $10 000 for an endorsement you have to cover food & rent during training, then you get paid in the low $40 000's. Same in Virgin & Jetstar but you will get paid a bit more. QF these days will be shipping you off to Singapore to live. Fine if you're single, what if you have 3 kids and a wife??

5 years ago Kendell were paying RJ captains almost as much as Jetstar are paying their captains today. National Jet took a pay cut and paid for endorsements just to keep their contract.

Whilst flying is a great job you have to consider how much you are willing to sacrifice just to get the job you want. If you are in it to make alot of coin then you are certainly in the wrong business these days!!

[pakeha-boy]

Novice....no pain no gain,my advice to you,if the desire is strong then have a real go at it.I would disagree with Neville about the money issue,to a point.

I dont believe I am one of the lucky ones,earning 6 figures and working about 6-8 months of the year is nothing to scoff at,that is the lucky part.The road has not been easy,but I consider what I do a real priviledge,and I believe most of us that have made it to the "Majors" would say the same.Much has been invested in time, money, effort and there is a whole list of others.

Aviation is very cyclic,the industry has been through some very tumultuous times,and will continue to do so. Most of us(except for the silver spoon boys)have spent our lives flying pieces of sh%t,working for some very dubious outfits,this is not the norm,but there are many.They know you need the time,ie beggers cant be choosers,but the choice is yours.

I have been doing this for 26 yrs,my 16yr old boy is flying,he loves it because none of his mates can fly.Would I tell him to pursue aviation,sure I would.....but get a education first and foremost.....this industry begs that you have some sort of contingency plan.

I have been fired,furloughed,paid nothing,unemployed,asked to break regs and worked for a swag of bankrupt companies,it sounds worse than it really is,but that is the reality of aviation.The Major airlines are sometimes no different.

Personally,I enjoy what I do.You will come across a lot of negativity,but across the board,all industrys have it.It is about what you personally are willing to put up with.Aviation owes me nothing,I get what I give,and its all about attitude.

I wish you the best in your endevours,I have been there,and I do not regret it at all........Ukuikui ai ki te hoaka....(persistence pays off)

[chief wiggum]

then you get into a Qantas regional. You now pay about $10 000 for an endorsement you have to cover food & rent during training, then you get paid in the low $40 000's

So don't go for the QF regional. There are plenty of other good regional jobs who pay you to train, and just bond you, instead of asking for money up front. AND you can still apply to mainline in the meantime... with a realistic hope of getting in.

[russianred]

I started learning to fly at Bankstown at 24.There were lots of wannabees but in time many of them dropped out for various reasons. I worked in factories at night , served pizzas and rode my bike to the airport cause i couldnt put gas in my car.. Today im flying the 744 O/s after flying the 767 and 757. All the guys i saw working hard and really wanting to make it got there. Some now in VBlue, Qantas , Emirates , Singapore , Cathay and some stayed by choice in GA.If you really want it just never give up and one day a break will come along. I along with all my friends sacrificed along the way but when i ask myself was it all worth it i have to say hell yeh .Sick bxxxxxx that i am- i still remember with fondness pulling the a/c out of the hanger at BK in the early morning and putting them back there late at night and working under the FNOs (Franks Nav Orders )-Great time..If you want it enough keep going.

[AerocatS2A]

Itmakes me very sad that what I really hoped for might not happen.

The only reason you won't get what you hope for is if you give up, which is what it sounds like you're about to do. You've got two choices, stick with it and eventually get the job you want, or quit and make it a little easier for the other students. The ball is in your court, as they say.

IMO, those who give up just didn't really want it enough. How much do you want it?

[Mr. Hat]

If it works out you are a genious and its the best move you ever made.

If it doesn't you are a fool with no money.

[pakeha-boy]

.....then of course we may all be out of a job in 20yrs........NASA and others are spending millions as we speak on the UAS/UAV......ie Unmaned Aireal Systems/vehicles.......designed to make the modern pilot redundant.......we see it in the military with the use of drones in Iraq.....a precurser of things to come:ouch: ........better start saving for that bach by hot water beach I reckon...

[ITCZ]

You are a long time dead. Do it.

Just remember to conduct yourself at all stages of your possibly 40 year career in a manner that will...

... allow you to walk into any aero club or crew bar and be welcomed

... have former workmates happily recommend you for any job

... have any captain or FO you crew with be happy that you are in the other seat on a tough day

Try to keep that in mind when you are tempted to take shortcuts, "please" your boss or pax, or are tempted to undercut a colleague or otherwise "get ahead" in your career at someone else's expense.

Integrity is the gift a man gives himself. Aim to be windswept and interesting rather than cashed up

Enjoy:ok:

[TurbineDreamer]

I guess there are many schools of thought on this subject. I guess you have to be positive going in or there is no point in trying, but go in with your eyes open. It is great to fly, and the feeling of finally getting that first job is fantastic. Unfortunately I never got that second job, and have ended up in another indusrty partly my choice, partly the nature of the industry. Yes, I am somewhat bitter that I am not there and some of the blokes I trained with are in the majors now, though some never got there, and quite a few I worked with were in longer than me with 1000's of hours and then got out. They found that they couldn't get to that elusive airline job and they had bills to pay. 2 things, get something else to full back on, not sure of your age but if young get a degree/diploma or trade in something else first and then try and fly. That way you have something to fall back on and it will also give you a balanced perspective when you are flying. I am not going to say don't do it, I wouldn't have listen to anyone saying that to me, but do look at all the options. And if you are older then be realistc about where you can get to. Just ease into I say, do some flying while doing something else, don't be in a rush. Finally, if you do go full ahead with it, keep the perspective that there is more to life than flying a plane, because otherwise the process will eat you up.

[neville_nobody]

Finally, if you do go full ahead with it, keep the perspective that there is more to life than flying a plane, because otherwise the process will eat you up.

Turbine dreamer you have hit the nail on the head IMHO. :ok:

I would be interested in how many of you out there who are giving it the whole 'if you want it bad enough' routine, have interests outside of aviation?? And how's the love life going?? Divorced?? How many goods friends do you have who are not pilots??

One thing I have noticed between pilots and the rest of the community is that the majority have no life outside of aviation!! While you might make it to the big time and get to fly a big jet all over the world if that's your dream, is that worth it for what you will get paid??

30 years ago yes it probably was because you got big money and can retire early. Have a look at the thread on the Jetstar vs QF A330 pay. For doing the same job today you might be taking a 30% pay cut. No to mention what the rosters will be like. This also does not take into consideration the dollars you will pour in JUST TO GET TO AN INTERVIEW!!!

I heard a great story that when asked in a interview what is your greatest ahcievement outside of aviation the respone given "was to still have the same girlfriend as when I started" the pilots all fell about laughing and noding their heads while the recruitment staff thought the guy was insane!!

I have met two ex QF pilots who have both quit due the fact that it was having a negative impact on their lives. Both went to uni and are now employed outside of aviation and both have said (independantly) that QF was the best job anyone could have but when put in the big picture of life that is was taking too much away.

I guess the question you gotta ask is what am I prepared to sacrifice to get where I want to be and will that be worth it. :ok:

[turbantime]

My story of "if you want it bad enough" Finished my CPL/CIR/ATPL theory during same time as Sep 11, Ansett collapse and the SARS crisis. There were absolutely no jobs out there. Hung in there for 18 months while working three different non-flying jobs which taught a lot about myself. Now I'm happy as a pig in you no what. Now that I look back at it, I wouldn't have it any other way because nothing I ever do is taken for granted.

Neville,

have interests outside of aviation??

Plenty in fact. Play soccer, cricket, party hard and just this morning went rock-climbing before lazing by the poolside with good mates.

And how's the love life going??

Absolutely great, thanks for asking ;)

How many goods friends do you have who are not pilots??

Most of my friends are non-pilots. They come from all different walks of life, some are lawyers, accountants, IT workers etc etc

In any case, so what if you if your best friends are also pilots? Does that make you a loser somehow? I fail to see the logic here personally.

Life is what you make of it. What I find personally is that it's usually the guys/gals starting out in their first gigs/years that are fully immersed in all things aviation because they're really excited to be there. After a couple of years you start to branch out and do other things to keep life interesting.

By the way, all of the above whilst in GA and loving it! :ok:

[neville_nobody]

Turbantime,

Just making the point that alot pilots don't have balance. You are not a loser if your friends are all pilots however I would suggest that it wasn't a balanced life. Alot of people outside aviation wouldn't hang around thier workmates all the time.

I would also guess that you are not working shift work if you are able to make it to a cricket or soccer match every weekend!! Good luck to you if that's the case!

[turbantime]

Nev,

I find a lot of people hang out with people from their industries but the biggest difference is that they rarely talk about their work.

For the record, my job requires a lot of shift work (what aviation job doesn't?) But the trick is to find a balance. I don't play sports every weekend but I do what I can and my team mates all know that. :ok:

[C152R]

I guess one solution would be to make the CPL & ATPL as challenging as the JAR. Then only the ones who are really serious and have the ability to pass the exams will get through. This will cut out the dreamers whose only ability, is the ability to pay.

[standardbrief]

i thought id put in my 2cents here

i did a ppl in nz moved to europe and did a jar frozen atpl with one of the recognized flying schools yes it was expensive i paid for mine with a mixture of loan from my old man (who got a bank loan) and a bank loan in my own name, at the time i used hsbc (guarenteed by my uncle). graduated with good results moved to western europe it doesnt realy matter where you go but youd have the best luck with england. worked in a hotel as a porter at an airport hotel for a while got a job with a flag carrier in operations then got my first job on a turboprop. elapsed time since finishing flight school 7 months. started flight school at 22.

the one area i dont know about is residency as i have an eu passport.

so why dont you do it theirs tons of jobs in europe. if you have kids etc obviously this isnt going to fit but this is mainly aimed at the young guys.

the job is excellent dont worry about these people who say its so difficult. reality is i worked harder in the hotel or any of the other jobs i did. and the pay is still good i dont know what its like back home but i heard its ok.

all the other stuff is nothing to worry about
..... if your wife says your not home enough get a regional job where your home everynight.
...... and the stuff about pilotless airliners aint going to happen in any of our lifetime.

then go home with good european experience........

f**k this is the most ive written in years. its the day to day achievements.

[CoodaShooda]

novicef
There's some very good advice on this thread. If its what you really want, ignore the naysayers and go for it.

Never place yourself in the position where you voluntarily turn your back on what you really want.

If it doesn't work out, at least you tried and you can move on. But if you follow your doubts and not your instincts, the regrets can last a lifetime.

Neville_nobody. Your advice is well intentioned but I, for one, will go to my grave bitterly regretting that I listened to the same sort of advice 30 years ago. (Like the aircraft, some parts of the industry haven't changed that much over time.)

Cooda
Great family, successful career but still missing flying

[C152R]

Cooda Shooda well done you have a career & a family. The grass always looks greener. Airline flying and salaries are not what they used to be. Most airlines operate on min rest, salaries have plumetted, training you have to pay for. Cheapest B737 & A320 courses in the US are US9700 & 12500 respectively.

QANTAS have Jet*, Emirates and Saudia are starting up LCC operations similar to Jet*. All the expansion is occurring in Asia with asian salaries, there are few exceptions & then those only apply to experienced Capt's. New guys (F/O's) are on local wages.

I would suggest to anyone wanting to fly have a backup plan get a degree which can be used at a later date if need be.

[CoodaShooda]

C152R (or C150A in my day)
Not a case of rosy glasses, greener grass or more money.

Aviation is no different to any other industry that has fallen into the clutches of the bean counters and their standards eroding ways.:{

The point I am trying to make is that if you have a genuine itch to fly, regardless of whether your path takes you into military, GA, airlines, bizjets, Ag whatever....if you don't scratch that itch it will eventually fester.

(But certainly have that back up plan to be dusted off if all else fails.)

[MBA747]

Its good to see there are more young fellows on the way, following their dreams instead of their brains. I must start up a Fying School/ Charter Company once I finish up with these four holers. I quite like the idea of pilots paying me to fly my planes, all the more money to invest in the property market.

[pakeha-boy]

standard brief....you say pilotless aircraft will not be in your lifetime......then you are misinformed to say the least...

Every Major airline in the states at this moment has a pilot rep that is working with Nasa offshoots,and various companys whose sole purpose is the introduction of pilotless aircraft.

Yesterday ,my jumpseater from our company,was on his way to DC,I was taken back,literally,at how far this concept has come,how much is on the drawing board.Their job is to work with these companys and the govt and procure rules and regulations that pertain to the operation of this equipment.

I asked the question,about my litle world...A320/757 OPS......HIS REPLY,...that in the not to distant future the ability to operate these types of equipment from the ground is not that far off.....in my life time I asked,his reply,if it doesnt happen within 20 yrs,he,ll be surprised.......do I believe it?,maybe a little sceptical...but just look how far aviation has come in the last 50 yrs.

The first types of A/C you wil see that are pilotless are going to be the areial survellence,pipeline inspection,photograpy.....etc etc...we just about have those now.... ...never say never,....and standard brief ,there are several web sites that are availble to research what I have said/.....dont have them handy ,but would be more than happy to PM you with the info...I think youll find it very surprising as to whats in the works....PB

[AerocatS2A]

The first types of A/C you wil see that are pilotless are going to be the areial survellence,pipeline inspection,photograpy.....etc etc...we just about have those now...
I agree that we almost have those now, in fact we DO have pilotless surveillance aircraft but they are not in widespread use yet. However it is a big leap from that to a passenger aircraft, not necessarily in technology, but in psychology :). Just how willing will people be to get on a pilotless aircraft? I know I wouldn't.

[rmcdonal]

There is always a little bit of surety in the knowledge that whatever is going to happen is going to happen to the guy up the front first. :}

[pakeha-boy]

A2a....you are right indeed....how many airports have you been in that have trains,that have no engineers or drivers..............they are all over the world...in industries other than aviation, you see it all around.....please do not mistake me for 'pushing" or " wanting" this technology...I am just providing information that I get and read...the reality of the situation is that there are many people who are making money at our demise...nothing more..nothing less.

There are many who read these threads,who will laugh,dis,..etc,etc...you will see/hear those from the good times,those on the tail end,and those who have :"the dream"....things have changed,and to try and tell the pilot from the 50/60,s to the pilot of 2000,s ,.what is going on in the aviation world is a pandoras box......to believe in aviation that things will stay semi-constant is a joke,,.....we deal with an ever changing world,and hope we can ride it out.

They are trying(in the usa) to extand the age 60 rule...the young fellas are going to love that!!!!!....I am certainly the optimist...but the bast#$d I was flying with today...well..he wanted my job......bloody heck I bought the donuts......may the taniwha visit his marae

[Sal-e]

Don't be the pilots from this joke....
"When we're around other pilots, all we talk about are girls. When we're around girls, all we talk about are aeroplanes."
By the way, all my friends at work are pilots.
None of my friends outside work are.

[MBA747]

I was talking to a mate of mine in London last night and from what he said only 3% of all pilots make it into the airlines there.Does anybody know what the percentages are in Oz and NZ.