Lossie/kinloss Making The Headlines

[santiago15]

Heroes eh?

http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=149212&command=displayContent&sourceNode=200378&home=yes&contentPK=13919691

[southside]

Bit strange that MP's and MOD have to get involved in a minor admin cock up. Why don't the Kinloss / Lossie boys ask to be flown back to their bases? Many years ago I jumped on a Herc in Norway and it flew us back to Yeovilton before moving back to Lyneham. Im sure the transport people only take them back to Lyneham because nobody has asked to be flown back to jockland.
Or am I wrong...do the truckies really ignore the wishes of their fellow comrades and leave them stranded in wiltshire?

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

It's nothing to do with the truckies.
Have a word with ASCOT and they may be able to put in a revitin if crew duty allows.

A lot of the time it is the customers unit fails to stay open past 17:00

[BDiONU]

Nothing has changed over the years. When the runway at Lossie was being resurfaced in 1987 some Jaguars were sent to St. Mawgan (plus me from ATC). Everyone (apart from the aircrew) was sent by train etc. Thankfully for the return, after much grumbling, an Andover was eventually laid on which flew everyone (apart from those driving vehicles back) to Kinloss.

BD

[zedder]

"A lot of the time it is the customers unit fails to stay open past 17:00".
.
Kinloss is a 24hr base you :mad: !

[Mr C Hinecap]

There is no new story here - move along please.

Same old thing - thrashed many times before. I just wish someone would give a press release with the full reasons and be done. :(

[serf]

Why cant they go in the king-air thingy's - seem to be used for everything else.

[FJJP]

Let's see what happens next - I've just written to Sir Richard Branson, suggesting that he could at a stroke gain huge popular publicity for his company at the same time helping our Northern Scottish-based personnel.

Virgin 747 on the Brize dispersal anyone?

[CBA_caption]

Hasn't the pullover-wearing billionaire offerred a service before? After all, he now does the Washington Trooper. Apparently it would be admitting defeat if we couldn't handle it ourselves. So that's alright then. I'm really looking forward to the day everything in the Rental Air Force collapses (organisationally speaking I mean), I just hope that no one dies as a result.

If the Armed forces federation ever makes it into existence I think its motto should be 'I told you so'.

CBA

[Speedpig]

At least they're out of the Gulf and back to civilisation safely.
BA and Easy both run schedules from Gatwick to Inverness which MoD could snap up for about 50 quid a squaddie. A little less than the old Andover charter I'd wager.

Trouble is, it takes 3 days to get from Brize to Gatwick via M40/M25:rolleyes:

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Nono, the chap for the MOD PR farce office says that the chaps have too much kit to fit on a regular airliner....! Uhuh... pull the other one matey!

[dessert_flyer]

Its obvious why we dont get our chaps home by the quickest means possible, it costs too much, why would we pay to charter a small aircraft to get our boys home as quickly as possible when we cam throw them onto a bus and get them home on the cheap. After all they have taken the queens shilling and can be used and abused as much as the heirachy want.
Still cant understand why moral is low and so many people are leaving!

[USasBRIEFED]

Sorry guys you are missing the point. If the user requests and is willingly to pay them ASCOT will organise the route accordingly. It is up to those that put in the requests for AT assets to bid correctly. Crews cannot just self divert to other bases because its a good idea, shame as it might be. Direct your complaints to your own chain of command rather than give the AT crews a hard time for just trying to do their job with very old equipment.

[SirToppamHat]

USasBriefed

I think only Southside is suggesting it has anything to do with the truckies themselves - he/she/it is a well-known Troll who is past due yet another new Username.

However, IMHO you are also missing the point somewhat. The people who have the ability to influence the routes that the AT takes are not generally those who are affected. This is particularly true when those returning from overseas are not air officers or are travelling in small numbers. Under these circumstances, all they should reasonably expect is to get home as quickly as reasonably practicable.

Unfortunately, dessert_flyer is uncomfortably close to the truth in his/her assessment that cost is the determining factor. If I were their boss, I would do what I could to get them flown home, but, in my experience, the Travel Cell Police are normally a significant obstacle to such attempts. Oh and yes, I have been on the receiving end - several weekend dets from Neatishead to Buchan a few years ago were achieved by putting 26 people on an RAF bus for significantly longer than these guys have endured, albeit not at the end of a trip from the Middle East.

Oh, and one other point - they have at least come home, plenty haven't.

STH

[dallas]

I would say in defence of the planners that a dedicated sqn/regiment move is often (I'm careful not to say normally) planned to deposit them at the nearest airhead to home base. However, schedules to Cyprus and the Gulf often comprise all sorts of differing quantities and types of unit, filling up on an availability basis.

For dedicated tasks, provided a suitable airhead has been identified, with sufficient runway, fire cover, handling aids, opening hours, PCN etc, it will go ahead, although destinations can sometimes quibble about raising their fire cover out-of-hours. Different budgets I guess :hmm:

But it's no good waiting until you're in the departure lounge then trying to blag the captain - if it's your exercise task ask at the planning point, which for the junior sqn planners is not 2hrs before wheels - the AT fleet plan about 3-4 months in advance and the planners don't take kindly to unnecessary changes just because units haven't got their s**t in order.

If you can justify it, ask.

[Flt Lt Spry]

Ascot are always very flexible when it comes to rearranging their routes.

For example, remember the bad old days when the VC10 crews on the Gulf run used to get a night stop in Kuwait City? Then when it was discovered that they could land the VC10 at Ali Al Salem and have a night stop there instead, they simply changed the route and night stopped in Akrotiri. Simple.

[dallas]

It's also worth clarifying Ascot (Ops) are 'only' the people who sort out problems at the last stage -48hrs to route completion I think; better to flag up problems/suggestions/changes at the earliest opportunity while the flight is still with the planners to stand a better chance of success.

The mighty Ascot comprises 1xofficer, 1xSNCO and 1xSAC per shift who might have higher priorities with a problem elsewhere.

[Tilt and Gain]

Hmmn. A 12-hour coach journey, you say? Perhaps someone should read this: <http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_rdsafety/documents/page/dft_rdsafety_504544.pdf>
It would seem to suggest that, in the UK, the max crew duty for a coach driver is 10 hours.

PS How one earth does one do that internet-linky-think?

[Melchett01]

If the user requests and is willingly to pay them ASCOT will organise the route accordingly

I must be having a real blonde moment here, so someone please explain this to me. Surely this is a case of the MOD paying itself to move their own people? The Trucky fleet is owned by the MOD, as are the personnel, and each individual unit's budget comes from a central MOD budget (doesn't it?)

So surely, the MOD can't say that they are being charged for using their own ac to move their own people? Will someone please tell me what I am missing here?

[SwitchMonkey]

12 Hours - 2 drivers. They often make it in a bit less than 12 hours, and while not perfect the main delay in getting home is more likely to be getting TO Brize rather than from it!

What we need is one of our "retired" Nimrods to be refitted as a passenger aircraft, now what could we call it?

[teeteringhead]

What we need is one of our "retired" Nimrods to be refitted as a passenger aircraft, now what could we call it?


..... you may well say that SwitchMonkey, I couldn't possibly Comet ...;)

sorry, I'll get me coat!

[Mr C Hinecap]

Nono, the chap for the MOD PR farce office says that the chaps have too much kit to fit on a regular airliner....! Uhuh... pull the other one matey!

pba - it is true - I've moved equipped troops by civ air and it is a very expensive option. It is more to do with the cost of extra luggage as civ air doesn't like flying fuel around as much as we do, so charges lots over the standard allowance.

[FJJP]

I thought the trucky fleet was controlled by the Army in MOD. They are the ones who decide the allocation of ac to task and if they say sandy area to Brize only that's it.

Am I wrong?

[vascodegama]

FJJP

Yes!

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Hinecap,

Fair play, suppose it's less of a player long haul as your luggage allowance is bigger than with easy or ryanair.

Anyone know what the baggage allowance to the sandpit is these days?

[OCCWMF]

EAC and Atlantic are selling off some classic 747s I believe. They'd make fine Hub-to-Hub workhorses.

[RayDarr]

sorry, finger trouble. see next post.

[RayDarr]

Remember folks,whenever you curse some jobsworth for screwing your plans up, it is generally some poor RAF bloke some where doing what he has to do. Give it a year or so and the posters will have moved you all round and you can do your job according to the rules and screw up the plans of the bloke who shafted you as revenge. It's the RAF and it's what makes the world go round.
More seriously though folks (must be getting soft!!) if we all did our work with our blue suited comrades in mind, we might make the wheels turn a little easier for someone, and maybe that bod, might in return do something for someone else and so on. Before we know it, we are all being nice to each other, everyone is happy and nobody wants to PVR anymore.

Now for the next fairy story. Once apon a time there was a beautiful princess............

[matkat]

pba - it is true - I've moved equipped troops by civ air and it is a very expensive option. It is more to do with the cost of extra luggage as civ air doesn't like flying fuel around as much as we do, so charges lots over the standard allowance.
If the RAF supplied the fuel there would be no problem with this.

[FJJP]

vascodagama

Fair enough, but I'd appreciate a few words on how the tasking system works these days. In times past, I had tried to get truckie or SH for Cdt Trg at Cranwell, to be told to contact a particular office in MOD, who gave me very short shrift - and they were Army bods.

So either someone was telling v. big porkies or the system has changed...

[vascodegama]

FJJP

The allocation of the assets is done at MOD level within a joint manned office (and some ROs). The detailed planning is done at Andoversford, again joint office but a fair representation of light blue) and the Transops are issued by a small office at a secret airbase not far from Carterton. The final office is entirely light blue current/RO. The problem you seemed to have had at IOT is getting the asset at all. The problems that other readers have had is that of where the assets go to. Your issue was definitely at MOD level. The others at Andoversford level. It is also true that the potential airfields that we might use are their own worst enemies. Without wishing to bore everyone here are a couple of issues.

VC10s carrying pax need Crash Cat 5A-only BZN( AND FFD AT THE MOMENT) have such cover-enhancement costs so who pays?

Leuchars for example will open outside normal ops ( and up Crash Cat) for their own people but not Army moves so we use Edinburgh-a lot more cost but not Leuchars' !

On a recent recovery from the States we were happy to drop our pax at Waddington but one of the problems was that it would not open.

Where possible the system does try to deliver formed units to their nearest airfield but this is on special routes not regular runs.

[Mr C Hinecap]

matkat - why do you think that would solve things? The RAF is still stung by the fuel price fluctuations - a major part of overspend last yr was to cover such variations. A couple of pence on a litre, multiplied over what we use across the RAF is several million extra.

Other Q - fully laden troop for deployment is something in the region of 50kg baggage as a planning weight. If you move a man, body armour, rifle, kit etc it starts to rack up far more than the civvy long haul allowances.

[matkat]

matkat - why do you think that would solve things? The RAF is still stung by the fuel price fluctuations - a major part of overspend last yr was to cover such variations. A couple of pence on a litre, multiplied over what we use across the RAF is several million extra.
Other Q - fully laden troop for deployment is something in the region of 50kg baggage as a planning weight. If you move a man, body armour, rifle, kit etc it starts to rack up far more than the civvy long haul allowances.
Mr C My logic is this if You charter an aircraft and buy the fuel directly from Your own supplier you will get it at cost plus the % markup from that dealer however the charter company will have to pay the dealer plus will put a further % on Their own price so if You buy from one You cut out 1 commision payment,trust Me I know of these things.

[FJJP]

Vasco, thanks for the explanation. Clearly the bean counters have much to answer for. Perhaps we should include bean counters in more long dets and see how they like it. [Before detached bean counters jump down my throat, I'm aware that there are some of you out there - just not many and not often enough...]