Instructors Salary

[novicef]

I obtained my PPL when I was in school with the intention of becoming a commercial pilot. I was told the best way to get the initial hours was to become an instructor. However I noticed some of the older guys were working very long hours but werent flying a lot. They would constantly claim it was hard to make ends meet at the same time telling me it was the way to go.

So I did some ringing around and found out that junior guys just qualified were being paid $25 an hour working upto 12 hours a day, washing cars, cleaning the flying school even the toilets.

One of the schools in Sydney have over 30 instructors on their list of staff. Does that mean the school is doing really well or is it because everybody is on this casual wage having to get their own students. I would like to instruct but with the wage being paid I dont think I could afford to. Is this normal?? I would like to know before I do something I might regret.

[philr]

As many have said before, 'teaching'/instructing is a great part of aviation, BUT, only get involved if you really want to teach.

As far as 'pay' goes, negotiate but don't work for free....

Having said all of this, it's great fun and much more demanding than many would understand....or ARE WILLING TO ADMIT.

Good luck.;)

[novicef]

philr I would love to teach, but I am also told its very hard to get work untill you get 100 hours abinitio and that all the new instructors are chasing that goal. The other bit of information I managed to get was that once you got the 100 hours it didnt mean you would be signed off, the reason being given was that your not upto standard so that everything is prolonged. Which meant that you were dependent on that school to progress.

Getting a Grade2 was even harder to get because some flying schools were reluctant to pay the slight increase in salary. Another way to prevent you from getting a Grade2 was to stop giving you navigation instructional time so that you would not get the 50 hours required to qualify. How prevalent is this?? However I do read from another thread once you have 300 hours instructional time a Grade2 salary should be paid. Is this accurate??

[Jerrym]

Novicef,

Unfortunately, it is a sad part of the industry, and what you have heard is true in a lot of cases. However, that keep in mind, a lot of the flying schools that you hear about on this site are the ones that do not provide the most ideal working conditions. There are some very good operators out there, that turn out some excellent products. I agree with Philr however that you have to be instructing because it's what you want to do. Not as a way of building hours.

My advice to you is look at schools away from the major centres. Schools like the one in Sydney you mentioned, have so many instructors on the books because there is such an abundance of instructors, and making them bring there own students helps the company. Smaller flying schools based in country towns have to look after their pilots, as they are harder to come by, and from my experience, it is these schools that are the best to work for.

This means you have to be prepared to move. I moved to the other side of Australia for a job, which has worked out well for me. Do your research. DO NOT work for nothing. And be prepared to go places. Good luck.

[SHIPofFRUIT]

Yeah its true that you should only become an instructor if you're going to enjoy teaching, its really good to see a student go first solo or get their licence. The problem is that teaching is not the only skill you will require to become an instructor. You'll need to become a salesperson, the office gopher and do all sorts of jobs just to get people to walk in the door.

Its a great way to pick up those first few hours but its the sole motivation. Often you only get paid for the hours you fly, which i last remember was $22 for a grade 3. The money was scarce and i had to take up a second job. i found i'd spend more on petrol and food than the moeny i made instructing.

Don't get me wrong, i enjoyed my experience instructing, i amde some good mates there and like i said it was good to see people progress and enjoy flying like you do but just be prepared that there's no money in it and you'll have to pick up a second job to get by.

[bushy]

I thought a flying instructor was a pilot, and should be paid according to the GA award, with an allowance on top of that for instructing. Talk to Lawrie Cox at AFAP

[GearOff]

The award rate for G3 is about $42/flying hr. It's a lot of fun, but hard work and if you can't bear the thought of someone else doing most of the flying, don't waste your time/money. The things you've described about difficulty moving up through the ranks would all be true of the dodgier places, but as the guys have said, maintain your own standards and be willing to move around a bit and you can have a lot of fun with it.

[Mere Mortal]

Novicef, stay away from aeroclubs if you can. I have Instructed at a few different school and found that aeroclub committees and the old boy mentality undermind Instructors authority and professional judgement, just because Ol' George who's a GFPT wants to fly regardless(without being signed out or authorised) of wind and weather because his been a member for 20years. Also, what you mentioned about 30 instructors on the books and having to get your own students can and does happen.

On the upside, you certainly know how to fly aeroplane to a much higher standard and will learn alot about people as there are two type of students, those who want a licence and those want to learn to fly. There is a difference.

Cheers MM
P.S. PM me once you have your rating and I'll see if I can help.

[prop-wash]

Meremortal, as with any organisation you will find those that operate well and those that don't, generalising can have a negative effect, better to make comment about those companies tht you have the experience to back up your claims.
The North Qld Aero Club is one of the better operations that I have come across. The CFI is highly competent and runs the business/instructing side of the club very well. I am lucky enough to do some casual instructing on my days off from my regular job and like all instructors at the club, I am paid the award rate. All the flying staff are there because they want to be and enjoy the teaching.
Instructing is a great way of increasing your skills, keeping current with a lot of the theory and challenging your abilities. The days can at times be long, with more time spent in the classroom than actually airborne, but fun all the same.
Regards, P-W

[scrambler]

Interesting how some schools want to pay the instructor as a casual per hour "as per the award" but wont pay the MINIMUM award of 4hrs flying hours per day as a casual.

I guess this in no different to the places that pay "as per the award" but make you buy your own uniforms with no allowance or reimbursement.

But as per usual, someone will always do the job for cheap to gain the hours - keeping the industry in the state it is in.

[bullamakanka]

Novicef

If you are being paid properly what is wrong with cleaning an office, car, or even toilet? Or should you be able to have coffees between flying duties?

Being a pilot is not just about flying a plane.

[Charliethewonderdog]

If you are being paid properly what is wrong with cleaning an office, car, or even toilet? Or should you be able to have coffees between flying duties?

Being a pilot is not just about flying a plane.

:rolleyes:


If you are being paid properly than you should work for what you are employed to do. FLY. I cant see why a pilot should clean Toilets. This disrespectfulness of our profession is a disgrace. Your attitude is disgraceful, it makes me sick that you think so lowly of our industry.
As pilots you are Professionals, cleaning Toilets IS NOT in the job description. If a Boss wants to cut cost and not employ a Cleaner than clean the toilet yourself.

A teacher doesn't stay back after school to clean toilets and clean offices etc... . Why should pilots????????????

[Avgas172]

What planet do you come from charlie .... have you ever had a job in the real world?. Some of us started work as mere mortals B4 we were elevated to Sky Gods. Get a grip man ....

[Charliethewonderdog]

What planet do you come from charlie .... have you ever had a job in the real world?. Some of us started work as mere mortals B4 we were elevated to Sky Gods. Get a grip man ....



Yes I have. Your point????

Name any other industry that treats it's professionals with the same amount of contempt as Aviation in this country does.

Common response “ If you don’t like it get out, change careers”, my response to that is why not help change the industry for the better, while I’m in it. It’s all about the attitude that pilots have towards themselves and their fellow workers.

I’ve worked for less than the dole before, struggling to put food on the table etc… etc…. Does this mean I should watch the next pilot go through the same? Just because a lot of pilots in the past have had the displeasure of working for employers that steal their entitled income from their staff doesn’t mean we should let the practise continue.

[bullamakanka]

Charlie,

It is by no means a disrespectfull attitude to the industry at all. All pilots should be employed under proper award conditions. However many jobs in aviation in Australia are in small business. The reality of running a small business in any industry is that everyone pitchs in to get the job done.

There are many good award paying companies out there where you will do more than just fly. Like wash and polish planes, throw bags, do a day in op's, sweep the office if it needs doing, etc, etc. Being a professional is not about only sitting in the pointy end, although its the part we all like the most!

If I worked for you and we had a half hour job in the morning, and a half hour job in the late after noon, what would you do if the plane needed cleaning? Hire a detailer to come out and clean it while I sat about and had coffee and cake???

Like you say there is no need to continue poor terms of employment and we need to make it better for those still coming up. I am glad to have helped do that where I last worked. However your idealistic approach does not work in a lot of situations.

Good Luck mate!

[Charliethewonderdog]

There are many good award paying companies out there where you will do more than just fly. Like wash and polish planes, throw bags, do a day in op's, sweep the office if it needs doing, etc, etc. Being a professional is not about only sitting in the pointy end, although its the part we all like the most!
And there are companies out there that treat pilots like professionals and are very profitable, that also employ cleaners etc... because they value the pilots duty time, they realise it's good business sense to save a pilots working ours to the part that can increase revenue ie. Flying .

If I worked for you and we had a half hour job in the morning, and a half hour job in the late after noon, what would you do if the plane needed cleaning? Hire a detailer to come out and clean it while I sat about and had coffee and cake???

Not your fault if the company hasn't got the work that you are employed to do. Pay casually and send the pilot home? Like I said if the company is struggling so much then shut the doors and let someone else do it.


Like you say there is no need to continue poor terms of employment and we need to make it better for those still coming up. I am glad to have helped do that where I last worked. However your idealistic approach does not work in a lot of situations.

Why?? because attitudes in this industry has always had low opinions of pilots because of the low level we see our selves (in the beginning). Because pilots are prepared to jump over each other, to get that next couple of hours, or that twin slot etc..etc.. Employers exploit this. As a work force we must change the attitude the industry has of all of us. And that starts with pilots attitudes towards each other.

You call it idealistic, I call it respect.

Good Luck mate!

Good luck to you to. But I ask you why should we need good luck??

[pakeha-boy]

I flew in kiwi,.....and I flew in Oz.......now I know why I left...

[bushy]

I've been wanting to say this for some time.

Charlie
Why don't you set up a charter company and show us how it's done?

Pakeha boy,
Your posts contain much wisdom, and experience.
Kapai te oni oni
Bushy

[Charliethewonderdog]

I've been wanting to say this for some time.
Charlie
Why don't you set up a charter company and show us how it's done?
Pakeha boy,
Your posts contain much wisdom, and experience.
Kapai te oni oni
Bushy

There are plenty of examples of companies that have and they should be rewarded. http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=208371

Maybe I will set up my own charter company, but before I'd go and commit myself I would investigate the cost of running one. I.e cleaning would be an expense, maintenance would be an expense, fuel etc….. ah yeh and pilots wage would also be an expense.


Which company do you run???

[bullamakanka]

Charlie,

I hope you are burning kero for a very well established operator, other wise GOOD LUCK in getting there.

:ok:

[Charliethewonderdog]

Charlie,

I hope you are burning kero for a very well established operator, other wise GOOD LUCK in getting there.



I hope every pilot doesn't have to go through what I had to or other pilots had to.

It's seems everyone in this industry is so self motivated that they lose the big picture of what they are doing to the industry when they climb the Ladder, myself included. When they achieve there goals they leave the bad days behind and turn their backs on GA. But the problems they had will always be with them right up to the majors. You just have to read the threads on the relevant EBA’s that are being negotiated at the moment. Maybe the best way to fix the top of the tree is to water it from the bottom.

Like I said earlier, it’s the fundamental attitudes that pilots have of them selves and fellow workers that has lead to the industry having a complete lack of respect for us. Now it’s at the top of the tree (Airlines).

[bullamakanka]

Charlie,

Thanks for the link in your previous post to companies that pay the award. I am sorry to inform you that at some of these companies, and other companies that pay it, you dont just fly the plane. Are you aware that it is legal to pay the award but not have the employee flying at every possible moment?

[Charliethewonderdog]

Charlie,

Thanks for the link in your previous post to companies that pay the award. I am sorry to inform you that at some of these companies, and other companies that pay it, you dont just fly the plane. Are you aware that it is legal to pay the award but not have the employee flying at every possible moment?


90 hours a fortnight. Thats what a company pays for that is what they should get, provided they are full time. If the company would like to burn up Duty time by rostering pilots to wash aircraft, clean toilets, vacumn offices etc... than they can. Doesn't make sense to me it would be a very expensive and you could argue from the award that it would 'promote deskilling'.

14.1 An employer may direct a pilot to carry out such duties as are within the limits of the pilot's skill, competency and training, such duties are not designed to promote deskilling, and are consistent with safety requirements.

[Unhinged]

Like I said earlier, it’s the fundamental attitudes that pilots have of them selves and fellow workers that has lead to the industry having a complete lack of respect for us.

Precisely so - though probably not in the way you meant it.

The arrogant attitude that we're too important to do a bit of cleaning when things are quiet, is exactly the kind of thinking that loses us their respect.

If getting a mop out in my (paid) spare time at work saves the boss a few dollars, then there's a good chance the business will be around a bit longer and I'll have my job a bit longer. Sitting on my backside while the boss pays someone else to do a job I could easily do, is about as self-centred and self-defeating as you can get.

When flying is a bit thin, I still work as a diving instructor and on those days I clean toilets and wash boats at the end of the day. I don't see any problem at all.

[Charliethewonderdog]

Precisely so - though probably not in the way you meant it.
The arrogant attitude that we're too important to do a bit of cleaning when things are quiet, is exactly the kind of thinking that loses us their respect.
If getting a mop out in my (paid) spare time at work saves the boss a few dollars, then there's a good chance the business will be around a bit longer and I'll have my job a bit longer. Sitting on my backside while the boss pays someone else to do a job I could easily do, is about as self-centred and self-defeating as you can get.
When flying is a bit thin, I still work as a diving instructor and on those days I clean toilets and wash boats at the end of the day. I don't see any problem at all.

No problem with that at all. Like I said earlier, the company can utilize your time how he see fit. 90 hours a fortnight to roster you to do what ever he likes.
I've always wondered what 'promote deskilling' actually means.

[Dogimed]

I may have missed it, but has anyone mentioned the point that this chappee, or chappette should not be allowed to go straight into instructing after becoming a CPL? They will only pass on poorly instructed bad habbits from their instructor, who no doubt has 300 hours in a bug smasha themselves.

Novice,
obtained my PPL when I was in school with the intention of becoming a commercial pilot.

If you could afford to get your PPL when you were in school, I would suggest sticking with whatever job you were doing and pay for your CPL hours. Dont waste some other poor kids time just so you can build your hours.

Dog

[puff]

Amazing industry really, mate of mine drives a bus(ex pilot). He just DRIVES it, isn't expected to do office work, clean it, vacumm it, wash it or refuel it, and is getting about $45-50k a year, how long will that take in aviation? Your telling me a 'bus' driver is higher trained or has more responsibility than any aircraft pilot? Why is it then they are afford FAR better working conditions and wages, because they appreciate their skills are worth something and they deserve to get paid for it.

[Over and gout]

[QUOTE=Dogimed]I may have missed it, but has anyone mentioned the point that this chappee, or chappette should not be allowed to go straight into instructing after becoming a CPL? They will only pass on poorly instructed bad habbits from their instructor, who no doubt has 300 hours in a bug smasha themselves.


I completely disagree. It doesn't take years of charter experience and airline 747 jet hours to teach someone effects of controls in a 152...or to do a trial flight.

Sure teaching IFR is quite a bit harder, but it takes a few years of experience to work up to that position anyway.....

[Dogimed]

OAG,

I think the ex 747 pilots are just as bad, but I still stand by my opinion that low time pilots should not be instructors. Currently you can go from ground dweller to instructor in the space of 6 months. Would you like this person teaching your children the funamentals of flying.

Think back to the wise old words of wisdom from your instructor, You wont get that from a low time fresh CPL that gets a job with the school he/she got the instructor rating from.

The industry needs help, and it should start with these newbie instructors being banned. I say min of 500 or 1000 hours before being allowed to become a instructor.

hours to teach someone effects of controls in a 152...or to do a trial flight

No, but it does take experience to teach someone to respect the forces of aerodynamics.

Dog

[Charliethewonderdog]

Amazing industry really, mate of mine drives a bus(ex pilot). He just DRIVES it, isn't expected to do office work, clean it, vacumm it, wash it or refuel it, and is getting about $45-50k a year, how long will that take in aviation? Your telling me a 'bus' driver is higher trained or has more responsibility than any aircraft pilot? Why is it then they are afford FAR better working conditions and wages, because they appreciate their skills are worth something and they deserve to get paid for it.


If an instructor was on $25 an hour than they would have fly 1800 hours a year to get what a Bus driver gets.

Any Flying school that offers these great rewards to thier employee should be shut down in my opinion.
And there are ways of shutting them down.

[Over and gout]

OAG,
I think the ex 747 pilots are just as bad, but I still stand by my opinion that low time pilots should not be instructors. Currently you can go from ground dweller to instructor in the space of 6 months. Would you like this person teaching your children the funamentals of flying.
Think back to the wise old words of wisdom from your instructor, You wont get that from a low time fresh CPL that gets a job with the school he/she got the instructor rating from.
The industry needs help, and it should start with these newbie instructors being banned. I say min of 500 or 1000 hours before being allowed to become a instructor.
No, but it does take experience to teach someone to respect the forces of aerodynamics.
Dog

Remember though a junior g3 instructor has to work under the direct supervision of the chief flying instructor and are only doing the very basic training sequences anyway. The student also needs to be assessed at regular intervals by a senior instructor when trained solely by a g3 instructor, and junior instructors never make the call on major issues like going solo etc anyway.

My opinion is that it is the individual instructors attitude towards teaching that makes the difference. I learned off a fellow who had huge amounts of airline experience as well as a lifetime in GA and with the benefit of hindsight I realise he was very jaded with it all and not giving 100%.

I still believe there is nothing wrong with low time instructors doing basic training although I think the hours needed to upgrade to sg3, g2 & g1 should be increased.:ok:

[novicef]

Is it true that a pilot must be paid for a minimum of 4 hours even though he might fly only one?

Further to that how is superannuation affected if he is not paid the correct amount? Can the superannuation board take action against a company that doesen't pay the proper super amount and finally how can one check that the super is actually being paid and not being used to pay off company bills. We don't want another ENRON. This is a question that was posed to me by a mate.