Low Level IMC

[griffinblack]

I saw an interesting thing this morning at an Australian Day event. There was a bit of a show put on by a couple of civvy acft. I think the first acft was a Harvard – big noisy radial, plenty of grunt, about 220 Kts’ish. First pass - nice and low, vertical manoeuvre, IMC …. 10 secs later VMC, continued on – second manoeuvre, vertical, IMC …. 10 secs later VMC. From then on he remained VMC and reduced his vertical extension. I guess the cloud base was about 1000 ft.

In summary – Harvard (?), IMC, about 1000 ft AGL, pitching and rolling, attitudes greater than 90 degrees NU, rolling at greater than 90 degrees AOB. Big ba11s, small brains.

[ausdoc]

This wasn't somewhere west of Brisbane was it?

[solocmv]

Saw the Roulettes over SYD. very low cloud 1000/1200, nice routine but clearly modified (no big loops), they departed in close formation to the north strait into the cloud base. Formation in IMC. ?

[Fragnasty]

solocmv,

Military pilots are trained to be able to fly the aircraft in any weather conditions, as a singleton, or in formation, which is a core skill for military pilots - particularly for those flying fighters.

If you really want a bit of fun, night IMC formation followed by a bit of air-to-air refuelling always keeps you honest, and it's a great skill to have. The bad guys aren't always going to wait for Day VMC conditions when the ****e hits the fan....

[Mirv]

Roulettes regularly fly six ship (and occasionally seven ship - hello Lucky!) form IMC as required.
Nothin' as ex as an ex...

[solocmv]

Ok I'll bite.
How do you fly close formation IMC.? I am day VFR. Though I have hooked a ride (night freight), could not even see the wing tips.

[Squawk7700]

Certainly not hard... it's all in the night-vision equipment... almost the same way that the follow each other around in the Unimogs (trucks) at night with no lights on! They also use ultraviolet lamps on trucks that are more easily visible through night vision equipment. Similar setup in the aircraft, and in IMC they actually move into a CLOSER formation than in VFR! You'd be surprised how far you can actually see when you're in cloud, you can normally see your wingtips, so you can easily see another aircraft, but believe me they do get lost from the formation occasionally and forget re-joining... the guy that drops off has to get traffic updates from the friendly AirServices operator so that he doesn't smack up their clackers - I have heard this on VHF several times.

Harvard in IMC & aero's --- Not legal.
Roulettes in IMC formation - yep sure...

Ever notice how the roulettes are exempt from the standard airshow rules and can fly towards and over the crowd at any time...? They are seemingly above the law, but in my opinion not beyond crashing into the crowd; really not sure how the rules don't apply to them.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Ok I'll bite.
How do you fly close formation IMC.? I am day VFR. Though I have hooked a ride (night freight), could not even see the wing tips.

Very farkin' carefully! Its the same as VMC just with a few less barrel rolls around lead!

[Chronic Snoozer]

Certainly not hard... it's all in the night-vision equipment... almost the same way that the follow each other around in the Unimogs (trucks) at night with no lights on! They also use ultraviolet lamps on trucks that are more easily visible through night vision equipment. Similar setup in the aircraft, and in IMC they actually move into a CLOSER formation than in VFR! You'd be surprised how far you can actually see when you're in cloud, you can normally see your wingtips, so you can easily see another aircraft, but believe me they do get lost from the formation occasionally and forget re-joining... the guy that drops off has to get traffic updates from the friendly AirServices operator so that he doesn't smack up their clackers - I have heard this on VHF several times.
Harvard in IMC & aero's --- Not legal.
Roulettes in IMC formation - yep sure...
Ever notice how the roulettes are exempt from the standard airshow rules and can fly towards and over the crowd at any time...? They are seemingly above the law, but in my opinion not beyond crashing into the crowd; really not sure how the rules don't apply to them.

What are the 'rules' exactly? Pretty hard to display without a vector toward the crowd at some stage. Over the crowd on entry or exit to the display - is there a problem with that?

[rmcdonal]

Works along these lines "Civil Air Law" and the Military version. Remeber they fall into the other category. Have spoken to a PC9 pilot about IMC form, he just shruged and said tighten it up a bit.
The Harvard in IMC doing aeros...:hmm: :hmm: Would want to hope CASA wasnt working on Australia Day :{ .

[Squawk7700]

Boozer Snoozer...

Sure, the rules for an airshow display are easy.

Display line is usually 200 metres from the crowd line (Avalon is a good example of this), and within 500 metres of the crowd in an arc / semi circle an aircraft cannot face towards the crowd (crowd in the middle of the circuit). Most non-aerobatic aircraft perform some kind of figure 8 with the ends of the figure 8 mean that they turn towards the crowd, however they are usually over 500 metres away.

If you do face the crowd within 500 metres and it's avoidable and looks deliberate and CASA is there (usually the case), consider that your last airshow display, ever! Many people do face the crowd when in a tight turn within 500 metres but if it looks safe it doesn't appear to be a problem.

The Roulettes are a blanket excemption to this and appear to be able to get away with facing the crowd at any time, overflying it or even completing a loop!!! straight towards the crowd. Potentially nowhere else in the western world is this allowed, yet our Roulettes are allowed to even though they have a habbit of crashing on the odd occasion. Last aircraft in training aero's was last year.

If you need to know more, just ask AeroAce60; he thinks he knows everything about airshows although he has probably never flown in one.

[AcroAce60]

Boozer Snoozer...
Sure, the rules for an airshow display are easy. .......
If you need to know more, just ask AeroAce60; he thinks he knows everything about airshows although he has probably never flown in one.
Believe it or not, Squawk, I actually agree with all of that. Some years ago I posted my views, in a public forum , on the Roulettes ignoring basic safety principles - no-one seemed interested. I wonder if they've done an appropriate risk analysis. The FAA in the USA has authority over displays conducted by the Blue Angels, for example, at a military base - if the general public is invited. There was a display a few years ago which had to be significantly altered as a handful of local residents declined to vacate their homes adjacent to the base, as they had done in previous years.
We shouldn't assume that the Harvard was IFR just because he was obscured by cloud to some-one on the ground. I've occasionally seen an inviting hole during a display where there's been a low cloud base, quite adequate for a stall turn. Even if he did go into cloud for part of a manoeuvre - seems to me that if he's got the skills to perform low level aerobatics he would have no trouble getting through part of them in cloud, probably was able to see the ground below anyway. He was reported to modify the figures later so he had worked out how far up he could go.
IFR formation - now that's another game altogether. Ferry pilot for Sean Tucker was lost doing that back in the '90's.
For info - I have done many low level aerobatic displays - including at Avalon - and I have never claimed to know everything about it - all you get are my opinions on the subjects upon which I choose to post.

[F/O Bloggs]

Solocmv,

All RAAF pilots are taught how to fly formation and as an extension to that, how to fly instrument apporaches in IMC concluding with a pairs or three ship formation landing. Even in thick cloud you can see the aircraft and the cues you need to fly in form. It is good incentive to stay in close. Obviously there are bug out procedures if you do go blind. All and all an effective way to get multiple aircraft around in IMC and allows for a means of rescue if an aircraft has instrument, or nav aid malfunctions above the gloop. You just get another aircraft to RV and off you go together back to base.:ok:

[Arm out the window]

IFR formation is straightforward in all but the darkest of clouds; as long as you stay in position (and the position is close enough) you just hang in there.
Having said that, if you do lose sight, it's essential to have a lost contact plan so everyone knows which headings/heights to go for and what the procedure will be afterwards.

[Captain Sand Dune]

on the Roulettes ignoring basic safety principles

Really? :hmm: Just because it looks unusual doesn't mean it's unsafe.

I wonder if they've done an appropriate risk analysis

Believe me, it's been done ad nauseum:ugh:

[Lord Snot]

Can I add my 2 cents worth, too?

All you have to do in IMC form is hang in there, maybe slide in a little tighter and it's no problem. You can still see the guy and it's certainly a good reason to try a little harder to maintain station...

There ARE procedures to follow if you lose your grip on the other guy or your nerve.

The Briquettes are allowed to fly towards the crowd (where others are not) because they don't do any of the really tricky stuff the major teams like Blue Angels do, like opposing solos and other fancy ****e like that. Or that thing the Frickin Tricolore were doing at Ramstein that didn't quite work out.

Not much to go wrong in long, boring formation passes with loose spacing.

[Fragnasty]

Similar setup in the aircraft, and in IMC they actually move into a CLOSER formation than in VFR!
Squawk, you are completely wrong here. The same references for close formation are used whether Day, Night, VMC, or IMC. There is enough visibility in all but the nastiest of CB's to safely fly close formation in the standard positions. I've been in 4-ship formation IMC as the third man out, and not been able to see the lead aircraft, but fly on the wing of the second - it's all about good leadership and technique, and trusting the other guys around you.
At night, wingtip/nav/formation lights are used to assist the normal cues, as they provide some ambient lighting and situational awareness on what the lead aircraft is doing. Every now and then though you get one of those impossibly dark nights, where all you're formating on is lead's lights. Here you apply the principle of "If you can't see the stars, that's where the lead aircraft is"
Night formation - It's all good fun!

[Chronic Snoozer]

Boozer Snoozer...
Sure, the rules for an airshow display are easy.
Display line is usually 200 metres from the crowd line (Avalon is a good example of this), and within 500 metres of the crowd in an arc / semi circle an aircraft cannot face towards the crowd (crowd in the middle of the circuit). Most non-aerobatic aircraft perform some kind of figure 8 with the ends of the figure 8 mean that they turn towards the crowd, however they are usually over 500 metres away.
If you do face the crowd within 500 metres and it's avoidable and looks deliberate and CASA is there (usually the case), consider that your last airshow display, ever! Many people do face the crowd when in a tight turn within 500 metres but if it looks safe it doesn't appear to be a problem.
The Roulettes are a blanket excemption to this and appear to be able to get away with facing the crowd at any time, overflying it or even completing a loop!!! straight towards the crowd. Potentially nowhere else in the western world is this allowed, yet our Roulettes are allowed to even though they have a habbit of crashing on the odd occasion. Last aircraft in training aero's was last year.


Careful there, check out a show by the Swiss, Brits, French or Speccie Fireballi. They all 'face' the crowd at some stage.

'Blanket exemption' - big call. As CSD says, risk managed and even tested with real accidents!