Lancastrian Info

[Brian Abraham]

Have trolled all the purveyors of flight manuals and unable thus far to find a Lancastrian flight manual, pilots notes, operating handbook etc etc. Anyone out there able to help? Not after an original - photocopy, scanned or anything of the sort appreciated. Would reimburse agreed to costs naturally. Part of delving into the establishment of oceanic air transport during WWII. Have the C-87 and C-54 manuals and this would complete the set.
Thanks in advance.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I have in front of me a set of replica ATA Ferry pilots notes (the famous "ATA blue book"), reproduced by the Yorkshire Air Museum at Elvington, from a set that Lettice Curtis failed to hand in at the end of WW2 (thank you for that Maam, we all owe you a debt for that oversight).

There are two cards for "Lancaster and Lancastrian", all the procedures and speeds are classified by engine type rather than by aircraft type.

I could scan and post the two cards here, but frankly I think I'd be on shakey copyright ground if I did. I'd recommend buying a set of the cards - which are absolutely fascinating and well worth owning.

(And there are also cards for the Skymaster and Liberator.)

G

[Brian Abraham]

Many thanks Genghis. One of the commercial outlets has just come good with a flight manual so problem solved.

[Vfrpilotpb]

What a coincidence I have just found this picture of the Lancastrian that broke the speed record for a flight from London to Cape town, it was called Aries II this photo was taken by my Uncle who was there at the time with I think 617Sqdn date was I think about April 1947. hope it comes out ok for it is very light with A/c in Silver.

Vfr


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/Vfrpilotpb/LancastriantakenByLEB1947afterrecor.jpg

[GAZIN]

Very nice old photo. I am fairly sure that is an Avro Lincoln. RE364 destroyed by a fire while refueling in Jan 1948.

[Brian Abraham]

GAZIN you beat me to it. Have been up all night researching the photo as they are Lincoln power eggs.The Cape record flight was made on 15/1/46 with an air refueling from a Halifax by a Lancaster named Aries. Makes sense that a Lincoln might be named Aires II.

[Vfrpilotpb]

I dont know how clearly the picture is to you but if you look very hard at the nose you can see the lettering followed by II I will dig the picture out again and see if there is a date on it.

Vfr

Addendum, Just found original piccie, My uncles writing on rear is as follows,
"Aries II onher return trip after breaking London Cape air record dated (on photo that is) 17/5/47

[Brian Abraham]

www.rafmuseum.org.uk/milestones-of-flight/british_military/1947.html

"30 April - 1 May 1947
A de Havilland Mosquito flown by Squadron Leader H.B. 'Micky' Martin (later, Air Marshal Sir Harold Martin) and Squadron Leader E.B. Sismore establish a new London-Cape Town record, covering a distance of 6,717 miles in 21 hours 31 minutes at an average speed of 279mph"

Vfrpilotpb, the photo you have (my guess) would be an aicraft (supporting the record Mosquito flight) on its return trip to Blighty.

[henry crun]

If you will forgive the thread drift, the name Squadron Leader Ted Sismore prompts me to mention that, in addition to the London-Cape Town record, he was a distinguished wartime navigator.

He was in the lead Mossie that deliberately disrupted a scheduled speech to be broadcast by Herman Goering in 1943.
He was the lead navigator on three Mossie raids in Denmark that attacked Gestapo headquarters. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-vetscor/1050213/posts
He planned the route for Operation Jericho, the Mossie raid on the Amiens prison .

After the was he crossed over and became a pilot, and later retired as an Air Commodore.

[PPRuNe Pop]

As you mention Ted Sismore Henry, it is also worth mentioning 'Mickey' Martin who was a 'Dambuster' with 617 Squadron. He also became an expert, with his crew, in accurately dropping Barnes Wallis's Grand Slam and Tallboy bombs. The Bielefeld Viaduct was a classic example. The Saumur Tunnel and the U-Boat pens at Brest were others.

Also, Guy Gibson told many times that MM was the best pilot at low flying he had ever seen.

[southender]

The story of 'Aries' is told in Putnams 'Avro Aircraft since 1908' book.

It seems the aircraft had an illustrious career, being in 1944 the first British aircraft to circumnavigate the earth. Then in 1945 it made a series of long distance flights non-stop flights between Canada and the UK.

In 1946 'Aries' set a record time for the UK - Capetown route during which it made the first Cairo - Capetown non-stop flight. I am fortunate to have a series of photographs taken at Cairo during this flight, which I would post but for my technical failings. One of the photos shows a close up of the side of the aircraft where all the places visited and dates are shown below the cockpit windows.

Finally after a further series of long distance flights to all corners of the world in 1946 PD328 'Aries' was withdrawn in 1947.

Regrettably, as so often happened with significant aircraft, it does not appear to have been preseved. I wonder if a more detailed history of it's career exists somewhere.

Cheers

Southender

[EXATCO]

VFRpilotpb

An interesting photo. Aries was based at RAF Shawbury with the Central Air Navigation School (CANS) - (that's the Unit badge on the nose). The Airmen's Mess/NAAFI was named after it .. The Aries Club.

The CANS was later subsumed/replaced by the Central Air Traffic Control School which is still at Shawbury today.

[Brian Abraham]

southender, just to clarify, the 'Aries' PD328 to which you refer was a Lancastrian and not the Aries II (Lincoln) in Vfrpilotpb's photo.

[Vfrpilotpb]

Exacto,

My uncle who took this picture in S Africa, had been in the RAF for about 12 months at this time, and was training as a Navigator, I will have to ask him if he was at Shawbury for it seems to tie together then!

Vfr

[southender]

Brian,

Yes, I am aware that we are talking of two different aircraft named 'Aries' here.

I don't think PD328 was actually a Lancastrian. All information I have refers to it as a Lancaster, albeit a streamlined version for the purposes of it's long distance flights.

It may be that the Lancastrian design was based on PD328, but I don't know that.

Cheers

Southender

[Footless Halls]

I THINK Aries I was originally built as a Lancaster and then demilitarised and fitted with streamlined nose and tail fairings similar to those of a Lancastrian. The Lancastrian was not a converted Lancaster but was a new aircraft designed and built as an airliner. Subtle difference.

I've got another feeling - that Aries II was a Lincoln similarly demilitarised and fitted with nose and tail fairings. There never was a an airliner version of the Lincoln although I believe ones was designed - to have been called the Lincolnian.

AV Roe ditched the Lincolnian concept and went straight on to the Tudor (oh dear).

I can check up 'cos my Dad was an Apprentice at AV Roe at one stage and I think will know these things - at least about Aries I and II. He told me that while he was there he heard rumours of the top secret bomber design they were working on. Turned out to be the Shack...

[kitwe]

There were 5 aircraft bearing the name "Aries". The first was, of course Lancaster B1 PD328 which was flown on many record breaking trips before, modified with "Lancastrian-type" nose and tail, it was used on the first RAF flights to the North Pole, starting on 6 May 1945. The second and third aircraft were Lincolns RE364 and RE367 (often incorrectly recorded as RF367), both of which were nicknamed "Lincolnians". RE367 was simply painted "Aries" and carried the code FG-AW. Aries 4 and 5 were Canberras. (PR7, WT528 was Aries V).

[Brian Abraham]

I'm after any info available on the Lancastrian so if anyone has stuff they might like to pass on please PM and I'll give my email address.

kitwe - be interested in RE364 and 367 also.

Footless Halls - All the info I have been able to garner says that the Lancastrians were conversions of the Lancaster and not new build airframes. Be interested if you have info that differs and its provenance.

[Footless Halls]

Well, all Lancastrians were civilian aircraft and were built as such. The airframe was obviously similar to the Lancaster but the nose, tail and mid-upper turrets were faired over. My father describes the nose and tail fairings as being like aluminium spinnings.
The Lancastrian, as I say, was a civil airliner and had a different 'type number' - 691 - at the works. This info I have from my father who was an apprentice at AV Roe at the end of the war and just after.
As I recall the aircraft he worked on were the Lincoln, the York and the early Tudors. He told me that the day after the news of the atom bomb broke, he remembers one guy coming. looking at a long line of Lincolns and saying "they won't be needing these any more, just a Tiger Moth to chuck the bloomin' thing out of.." The size of an atom bomb being classified at that stage...
The Lancastrian had nine seats. wicker I think I have been told, down the right hand side of the fuselage facing to the left.
My trusty "Aircraft of the Fighting Powers" vol 6 tells me that what was the bomb bay in the Lancaster was converted to long range fuel tanks and the aircraft had dual control. AFP gives a range of 4,150 miles vs. 3000 miles for the Lancaster.

[astrocompasser]

The story of 'Aries' is told in Putnams 'Avro Aircraft since 1908' book.

It seems the aircraft had an illustrious career, being in 1944 the first British aircraft to circumnavigate the earth. Then in 1945 it made a series of long distance flights non-stop flights between Canada and the UK.

In 1946 'Aries' set a record time for the UK - Capetown route during which it made the first Cairo - Capetown non-stop flight. I am fortunate to have a series of photographs taken at Cairo during this flight, which I would post but for my technical failings. One of the photos shows a close up of the side of the aircraft where all the places visited and dates are shown below the cockpit windows.

Finally after a further series of long distance flights to all corners of the world in 1946 PD328 'Aries' was withdrawn in 1947.

Regrettably, as so often happened with significant aircraft, it does not appear to have been preseved. I wonder if a more detailed history of it's career exists somewhere.

Cheers

Southender

I am researching Astro compass's I wonder if you have a picture showing the astro compass on the Aries 1 ? Either inside the aircraft or visible from the outside.
Thanks

[astrocompasser]

I THINK Aries I was originally built as a Lancaster and then demilitarised and fitted with streamlined nose and tail fairings similar to those of a Lancastrian. The Lancastrian was not a converted Lancaster but was a new aircraft designed and built as an airliner. Subtle difference.

I've got another feeling - that Aries II was a Lincoln similarly demilitarised and fitted with nose and tail fairings. There never was a an airliner version of the Lincoln although I believe ones was designed - to have been called the Lincolnian.

AV Roe ditched the Lincolnian concept and went straight on to the Tudor (oh dear).

I can check up 'cos my Dad was an Apprentice at AV Roe at one stage
and I think will know these things - at least about Aries I and II. He told me that while he was there he heard rumours of the top secret bomber design they were working on. Turned out to be the Shack...

Hello Footless Halls - could you ask your Dad, about the astro compass that was fitted in the Aries 1 for the 1945 Polar flight. I would like to see pictures of this astro compass, or even (wishful thinking ) sight of the actual instrument. Many thanks - friends.

[Footless Halls]

I'll ask. But sorry to betray my ignorance. I know what a twin stack of Garmin 430's looks like, but I've no dea what an astro-compass is. What is it, what does /did it look like and where might it have been fitted?

[astrocompasser]

An Astro Compass is an instrument that first appeared about 1941. It is used to obtain bearings from the sun and / or stars. It is used where magnectic compass's are unreliable, such as near the poles, or in WW2 when they got damaged. There are I understand, certain situtations when GPS are unreliable too, so the astro compass is used as a double check on magnectic compass's and GPS.

Do a Google - Images - Astro Compass - will show several astro compass's.
The one used on the Aries was an unusual special inverted model of the astro compass, presumably because it was mounted near the ceiling of the cockpit, to take readings thro' the upper windscreen.

They are still in use today in Airlines that operate in higher latitudes, I know for certain that Canadian North use then, also Polly Vacher used one too on her solo World flight in a single engined Piper.

I am researching the history and development of the Astro Compass, so would be most grateful for any model numbers, cockpit pictures of installed astro compass's etc., etc.,

[Brian Abraham]

Footless Halls - As far as I can find the Lancastrians were put together at Waddington (south of Lincoln). Would your Dad be able to confirm, and also what else might have been built there, if indeed Avro or a contractor had a factory there.
Many Thanks,
Brian

[kitwe]

The Avro Factory at Waddington is still (I believe) to be seen on the other side of the A15 from Waddington. It is now an industrial estate but some of the old hangars are still there. One of the last aircraft to be assembled there was one of the Avro 707s.

Aries I was, indeed a Lancaster, modified for Arctic flights with the nose and tail fairings and all turrets removed. THe Lincolns were similarly modified. I am not certain but I believe Aries II (RE364) was in use at Shawbury and Aries III was flown from Manby, after Specialist Navigation training moved there from May 1952. Aries III certainly bore the title "Royal Air Force Flying College" on its nose.

[Footless Halls]

Well I think Footless snr. was at Chadderton. I should add that he didn't finish his apprenticeship at AV Roe.
I asked about the Astro-Compass and his reaction was the same as mine: "what is an Astro-Compass?" Although at least I know what a Garmin 430 is. But I don't think they were fitted to Lancastrians either.
Another source of interesting info is a book my wife got me called 'Challenging Horizons, QUANTAS 1939-1954' by John Gunn. Not suprisingly, this is QUANTAS' postwar company history and has a lot of information about the problems they had trying to run an airline using British aircraft. At one stage they were running a 'two speed' service with Hythe flying-boats for luxury and Lancastrians for speed (but discomfort). London to Sydney by Lancastrian took 67 hours, with the Hythe taking 5 1/2 days.

[southender]

Astrocompasser,

Sorry, my photographs do not help.

Cheers

Southender

[Green Meat]

Well, you've got me looking in my archives now!

Some questions I'm quite keen to know the answer to on the Lancastrian, and Brian Abraham you may be able to help here.

Colin Cruddas at Flight Refuelling passed on some info and pics about their Lancastrians about 8 or 9 years ago, most of the pics can now also be found by Googling for pics of Lancastrians. At the time of the Berlin airlift, two things stand out in pictures, namely:
a) the aerial fit on the side of the nose - navaids presumably, but what?
b) Some aircraft have a window let into the port side of the nose with what appears to be a circular device behind it. Any suggestions as to what that device might be?

Yours in blissful ignorance

GM

[Brian Abraham]

Green Meat - check PM