IFR without an IR/IMC?

[Send Clowns]

This is a UK-specific question and piece of advice.

I know that a pilot with a night rating can fly under IFR without an IR or IMC rating - in fact that is the only rules available outside controlled airspace at night in the UK FIRs. However can anyone confirm that it is also possible to fly IFR in the day outside controlled airspace and in VMC without any addition to the PPL? I don't know of any law that rules this out (IFRs only specify that an unrated pilot may not fly IFR in controlled airspace or in IMC), so assume it is perfectly possible.

So to the advice: if you are hour building in the UK towards a CPL, fly as much as possible under IFR, fly above MSA and by quadrantals where appropriate. The reason is that under JARs some single-crew AOCs require pilots to have 100 hours PIC under IFRs. Now 40 of these have to be multi-engine, as all operations will be multi-engine and apart from IRTs and renewals few new pilots are likely to have any of those. However it can be cheaper and much more fun to acquire these than the type rating many small 2-crew operators would require an inexperienced pilot to pay for, and pay in this sector can be better. More importantly the work can be very rewarding!

This is just based on some restrictions I came across when looking for a single-crew job. Fortunately I have one I am now training for and am thoroughly looking forward to, and will have all the PIC IFR time anyone could possibly hope for in the next few months! There are jobs around people, you just have to go out and look and think beyond the obvious :ok:

[BillieBob]

It depends whether you are referring to a UK National PPL or a JAA PPL. In the latter case, Schedule 8 of the ANO states The licence is subject to the conditions and restrictions specified in paragraph 1.175 of Section 1 of JAR–FCL 1and JAR-FCL 1.175(a) statesThe holder of a pilot licence (A) shall not act in any capacity as a pilot of an aeroplane under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR), except as a pilot undergoing skill testing or dual training, unless the holder has an instrument rating (IR(A)) appropriate to the category of aircraft issued in accordance with JAR–FCL.It is interesting to note that this restriction applies also to CPL(A) and ATPL(A) licence holders.
So, if you hold a UK PPL(A) then there is no restriction on electing to fly IFR in Class G airspace in VMC but, if you hold a JAA aeroplane licence, you cannot fly under IFR unless you hold an Instrument Rating except in the UK at night, provided that you hold a night rating or qualification.

[FlyingForFun]

BillieBob,

You've only quoted the first part of the relevant part of JAR-FCL. Paragraph (b) of JAR-FCL 1.175 states that:(b) In JAA Member States where national legislation requires flight in accordance with IFR under specified circumstances (e.g. at night), the holder of a pilot licence may fly under IFR, provided that pilot holds a qualification appropriate to the circumstances, airspace and flight conditions in which the flight is conducted. National qualifications permitting pilots to fly in accordance with IFR other than in VMC without being the holder of a valid IR(A) shall be restricted to use of the airspace of the State of licence issue onlyThe bit which I've highlighted in bold is relevant here. The UK is a JAA Member State where national legislation requires flight in accordance with IFR under specified circumstances (i.e. at night). Therefore, the holder of a pilot license may, in the UK, fly under IFR, provided that pilot holds a qualificaiton appropriate to the circumstances, airspace and flight conditions in which the flight is conducted.

As I read that, in the UK, a basic PPL-holder may fly IFR, provided he remains VMC (i.e. his qualification is appropriate to the flight conditions).

FFF
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[Send Clowns]

I think you are right, FFF, thanks for the quote. Do you think they meant that, or was it supposed to be restricted to those conditions in which IFR was mandatory (i.e. night)? As the rule is stated, because IFR is mandatory at night OUTCAS, a simple PPL holder can fly IFR in daytime (VMC, OUTCAS)!

[BillieBob]

Yes, FFF, because it is only JAR-FCL 1.175(a) that is relevant to the question. JAR-FCL 1.175(b) is, as Send Clowns suggests, referring to the UK requirement for night flight to be under IFR, it does not allow flight in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules under any other circumstances unless the pilot holds an Instrument Rating.

Look again at the bit that you quote - ....where national legislation requires flight in accordance with IFR under specified circumstances.... In the UK, this clearly applies only to flight at night since all other mandatory IFR flight is in accordance with ICAO procedures and not solely national legislation.

[BEagle]

BillieBob - utterly wrong! The statement refers to conditions where national legislation requires flight in accordance with IFR under specified circumstances, not where pilots choose to fly under IFR in the UK.

You do NOT need an IR or IMC Rating to fly under IFR in VMC in the UK outside regulated airspace - irrespective of which type of CAA-issued licence is held.

You do require an IR to fly under IFR in UK Class A CTRs and in any UK airway even in VMC.

You may not fly in any UK airway unless you hold an IR - an IMC Rating is unacceptable.

You may be permitted to fly under SVFR in UK Class A or Class D CTRs without an IR or IMC Rating.

You do require either an IMC Rating or IR to fly in IMC in the UK.

[Send Clowns]

Billiebob

But national legislation does require flight in accordance with IFR under specified circumstances. That clause being held true, logic dictates that the clause depending on it is true, i.e. "...the holder of a pilot licence may fly under IFR, provided that pilot holds a qualification appropriate to the circumstances, airspace and flight conditions in which the flight is conducted". The holder of a PPL and SEP rating "... holds a qualification appropriate to the circumstances, airspace and flight conditions..." in the daytime, under VMC, and therefore "...may fly under IFR ...".

BEagle

One thing you might know that I have wondered - I realise that often SVFR clearance is given in the class-A CTRs, and never in the airways. Is it ever given in the TMAs?

[Charlie Zulu]

It seems to me that when dealing with Class A (from experience), that it is limited to CTR's only. Be it London CTR or Jersey Control Zone (the two that spring to mind).

However I am quite unsure whether ATC don't generally issue the SVFR clearance or whether it is legally allowed in the TMA's and Airways. Hopefully Beagle or someone else would...

This is one of those topics that I have wondered about for the last seven years or so, but haven't actually got around to asking.

One thing to add to Beagle's notes in regards to SVFR in Class D for PPL's... the visibility requirement is 10km for PPL holders but for those with IR's/IMC's the SVFR clearance can be taken down to 3km. Thus the misnomer that SVFR is for bad visibility situations.

[BillieBob]

OK, I'll try to make this v e r y simple.

Schedule 8 of the ANO, in reference to JAA licences states that the holder of such a licence is subject to the conditions and restrictions specified in paragraph 1.175 of Section 1 of JAR–FCL 1.
JAR-FCL 1.175 states that (a) The holder of a pilot licence (A) shall not act in any capacity as a pilot of an aeroplane under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR), except as a pilot undergoing skill testing or dual training, unless the holder has an instrument rating (IR(A)) appropriate to the category of aircraft issued in accordance with JAR–FCL.
(b) In JAA Member States where national legislation requires flight in accordance with IFR under specified circumstances (e.g. at night), the holder of a pilot licence may fly under IFR, provided that pilot holds a qualification appropriate to the circumstances, airspace and flight conditions in which the flight is conducted. National qualifications permitting pilots to fly in accordance with IFR other than in VMC without being the holder of a valid IR(A) shall be restricted to use of the airspace of the State of licence issue only.So - Schedule 8 of the ANO, combined with JAR-FCL 1.175(a) state that the holder of a JAR-FCL licence cannot fly in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules unless the pilot also holds an Instrument Rating.

However, this would not allow flight by night in the UK since IFR is mandatory. Therefore, JAR-FCL 1.175(b) allows flight under IFR, without the pilot holding an Instrument Rating "....under specified circumstances (e.g. at night)...." provided that the pilot holds "....a qualification appropriate to the circumstances, airspace and flight conditions...." i.e. a Night Qualification.

Send Clowns' original question concerned a PPL holder wishing to fly under IFR, by day, clear of controlled airspace. In these circumstances, national legislation in the UK does not require flight in accordance with IFR and, therefore, JAR-FCL 1.175(b) does not apply and the pilot is required by JAR-FCL 1.175(a) to hold an Instrument Rating.

[FlyingForFun]

BillieBob,

Again, your quote is incomplete. You quote:....where national legislation requires flight in accordance with IFR under specified circumstances.... But you deliberately miss the few words immediately preceding. The sentence reads:In JAA Member States where national legislation requires flight in accordance with IFR under specified circumstances (e.g. at night), The UK is such a member state. Since there is no punctuation before the word "where", the "where" phrase applies to the Member State. Thus, as it is written, the whole of paragraph (b) applies to the UK at any time of day.

As Send Clowns says, this may or may not have been the intention of the writers of the rule. Simply adding a comma before the word "where" would completely change the meaning of the statement, such that it only applied in circumstances where the national legislation requires flight in accordance with IFR, but without that comma it applies to the state.

I am not in a position to be able to say what the writers of the rule meant, because I wasn't there when they wrote it. My guess as an outside observer is that it was intended to apply only in those circumstances where legislation requires it, i.e. at night, since that would make more sense. But that's not what's written, and we are not at liberty to make up the rules according to what we think makes most sense, we have to read the rules as they are written.

FFF
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[PPRuNe Radar]

SVFR can only be issued in CTRs.

By definition, Airways and TMAs are CTAs, thus it is not available.

[Charlie Zulu]

Thanks Pprune Radar, that clarifies that question.

[High Wing Drifter]

BillieBob is quite logical and is interpreting it reasonable. However, this little nuget opens the door:-
National qualifications permitting pilots to fly in accordance with IFR other than in VMC without being the holder of a valid IR(A) shall be restricted to use of the airspace of the State of licence issue only.
I interpret this as implying that where IFR isn't required you must be suitably qualified if not in VMC! In other words, if the national authority hasn't specifically banned IFR in VMC under certain conditions then you can do it. The ANO Schedule 8 lists those cases where you may fly IFR with an IMC.

[Send Clowns]

PPRuNe Radar

Thanks. Thought that would be the case, just wished to check.

HWD

I agree that Billiebob's interpretation is quite reasonable, hence my idea that it might be what was intended - however it is not what the law says. The law is not what is reasonable or what is intended, outside common law in legal systems that have such a concept. The law is the meaning of the written words, and FFF has carefully made an eligant point about punctuation that clears up my final concern that I might be misinterpreting the rule. If "reasonable" counted for anything half of JARs would be struck down!

I had looked at the part you referred to as relevant to the IMC rating, rather than a simple PPL holder, however the imploication you draw does hint that the interpretation we have been making is the intended one, as well as legally correct. Not sure I really wish to know the minds of JAA legislators any further than this, lest I become angry!

[High Wing Drifter]

Send Clowns,

Something more to add on this Satuday night (can you tell I'm married with kids!). The only reference I could find preventing any PPL from flying IFR in CAS other than D and E is this one:
unless his licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane), fly as pilot in command or co-pilot of such an aeroplane flying in Class A, B or C airspace in circumstances which require compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules;
The problem is this is only in the section for UK Licenses. I suspect that our interpretation of the JAR rules is not the intended one! I am sure I've missed something somewhere. What do you think?

Small edit to reword

[Send Clowns]

I am sure IFR flight INCAS requires an IR / IMC rating - I think it is part of IFRs themselves. Remember they are themselves laws - Instrument Flight Rules!

Well BEagle has a hell of a lot of experience in how it is actually done. If he says that is the way things are, I'd have to have a damned good reason for disagreeing. It also seems to me that if the CAA have historically allowed this they are not going to be too quick to reinterperet the rules.

So my advice stands: if you are hour building, do as much as possible IFR, up to 60 hours. Wouldn't have affected me as I did all hour building either under JSP318 or under FARs, but this is a forum for those as haven't got there yet!

[BEagle]

And don't forget also:

He shall not unless his licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane) or an instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes), fly as pilot in command or co-pilot of such an aeroplane flying in Class D or E airspace in circumstances which require compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules...