Loans for funding flying training.

[Muppet99]

Having been accepted on the integrated fatpl course at Jerez, I now need to get some money sorted to fund it!

I'm in full-time employment (20k income a year approx) and my parents would be prepared to secure the loan with the house.

Any thoughts or advice on what the better option may be?

[moggiee]

My personal experience of Spain says avoid BBVA and Banco Santander like the plague.

Barclays in Jerez are pretty helpful and of course have a UK arm. Normally, I would steer clear of Barclays, but it says a lot about the Spanish banking system when I say that Barclays are better than any Spanish bank!

[Bluesteel705]

Firstly my apologies for opening yet another finance thread, however my question is specific and I cannot resolve it by seraching etc.

Basicaly, applied to HSBC for £30K to further my training, under the PSL, which has up until now been sold to me as being unsecured, HSBC in Sheffield now have rung to tell me that yes they would be delighted to offer me the loan if my parents are willing to give their house to the Hong-Kong and Shanghai banking Corporation for the duration of the loan.

They are not willing to do this as I am most unfortunately not an only child, :{. Up until this point they kept telling me it was an unsecured loan and there would be no problem. So now I'm just wondering if anyone here with more experience of HSBC could help me.

Cheers

Chris

[Pole Hill]

Bluesteel705,
I went to the HSBC in Leeds a few years back to enquire about a £40K PSL loan; at that stage I was making enquiries. They said that the loan must be secured on the house.
If I remember correctly, I think that they said that £10K was the maximum that they would lend unsecured. However, people on this forum have reported borring much more than £10K unsecured. I think the branch you choose to visit is key. Apparantly (from this forum), the Oxford branch seems to be the one to visit.
Incidently, I didn't take the loan in the end.
POL

[silverknapper]

Ploe is dead right I think. Some branches seem more in tune than others. Perhaps we should have a sticky on which branches will lend unsecured!!!! For what it's worth Chester wanted security

[Bluesteel705]

Thats very true. I'm not sure if the size of the branch is key though. My local branch in Chesterfield (Which is just of being a city) were a little clueless as to the PSL and even told that they could only match whatever I out in 50/50, this was after they phoned Delhi to make sure they could accept Pilots.

Sheffield on the other hand were much more optimistic, apparently they deal with this most weeks, (Must be a lot of pilots from Sheffield???) they just seemd to have changed track all fo a sudden

:ugh:

[mbcxharm]

Yes. It does matter alot who you speak to. Before going to Britannia cadet selection a few years ago (which I didn't get!) I managed to get the Holmes Chapel manager to agree to lending me 15000 pounds unsecured if I got on the course.

That pales into insignificance compared to the amount being lent to, for example, the CTC cadets unsecured. The level of selection that both Britannia and CTC use may have something to do with that though...

[F.O.E.]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/post1930578Hi Muppet hopefully I can shed some light on the situation?


I was accepted for the June 27th start date but couldn’t make it due to funding and work circumstances (I work in sales I got a bonus that my company wouldn’t give me if I said I was leaving). Anyway with June start date past and a bonus in the bank I’m looking at getting on the next course.

Initially applied to HSBC with what the manager said was an excellent business plan (it should have been to I had help from an expert!). I finished Uni 3 years ago so everything I have earned has been paying off loans, credit cards & over drafts etc up to the amount of 12K so not much saved! Anyway basics of my loan were focused on my current job which is very well paid with qualifications to re-enter it if flying went tits up, security from my dad in the way of a bond (amount of which is more than what was applied for or house which ever they preferred) Medical, acceptance letter from FTE forecasted earning etc…………………..

however they wouldn’t entertain it as I wasn’t putting enough capital into the proposal, but said if I met them 1/3 of the way they probably would!

This gave me two options

1. Apply to a different branch (even the guy in Chester said different branches make different decisions)
2. Try a different Bank
3. Try and get your parents to take out an interest only mortgage

I have tried BBVA as my friend has said it’s a good deal, I am still waiting for an outcome, I have explained all I know about the BBVA loan on this thread

http://www.pprune.org/forums/post1930578 (http://)

Need anymore help PM me

And hopefully I will be in Spain soon

Flying on Empty

[helicopter-redeye]

Which branch in Sheffield? I just had a most helpful exchange with the mgr at one.

h-r:)

[Muppet99]

Thanks chaps.

F.O.E. hope to see you in Jerez soon! :ok:

[Bluesteel705]

Sheffield Church Street, the one opposite the cathedral, the interior looks like something out the Titanic ;)

[helicopter-redeye]

Try Woodseats. The Mgr there now understands a bit more about aviation,

May give a result, maybe not ...

h-r:)

[aerosteve]

Just had an meeting with hscb bank who kindly informed me that they are no longer offering professional studies loans for aviation training! could not believe it!

they changed the rule just on friday and have removed pilot training from their web site on PSL's.

anyone know any more or what other banks are offering the scheme ket me know!

all the best.

steve...

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Does that mean I don't have to pay back the big dollars I owe them? :D

[Bluesteel705]

In the long run this will probably reduce the amount of low hour pilots in around 2 years time, so maybe good news for job-seekers, however if I hadnt only JUST had my £32k approved today (Applied a few weeks ago) I may be a little less optimistic. Was going to wait till August to apply as well.

Timing does indeed appear to be everything.

[DBLE]

As a matter of interest did you have to put up security for your loan ?

[Bluesteel705]

Oh man, spent a week arguing over this, in the end I won ;)

Basically I took them my forms from the RAF IOT Selection centre saying I passed the aptitude tests for Pilot, (Failed Eyesight for that though) WSO/ Fighter Controller etc and they let me off the security.

This was a bit of a gamble as though they seem to realise that recruitment is a little slack for the aviation industry, they dont seem to realise that currently its nonexistent for the RAF.

Has its good and bad sides though, luckily if I went back to my current job and lived like a monk I could repay the loan on time. So not as bad as it could be.

[Kempus]

I spoke to them yesterday? wasn't told that! then again tho lending for a PSL was always at the managers discretion. mmmm, hope my application aint getting binned!

[Crazypilot A]

HSBC topic (http://www.oxfordaviation.net/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1779)

[Kempus]

now thats interesting!

[Lee Frost]

Pah! When I saw this I just burst out laughing - you either laugh or cry :) but I'm not the sort of weed who blubs just because somebody gives him a slice of rabbit pie instead of birthday cake. Baaah!

The last contact I had with them, they were very relaxed about lending over £20k - mind you I have put in over £30k of my own money in so far. I will be meeting with them shortly and will add any information I can.

I do hope the decision can still be made at branch level because those I dealt with seemed knowledgeable and even, dare I say it, had an optimistic view of future recruitment needs.

To others in the same boat - please continue to post any information relating to this.


LF

[Number Cruncher]

This is a very interesting development and appears to be a short sighted move by HSBC what with the current/predicted boom in civil aviation.

This will no doubt introduce another barrier to entry for a lot of people into the industry. On the other hand i guess there will be less competition. However, i bet OATS are licking their lips as they still have an agreement in place with HSBC.

[Kempus]

Ok, here's what HSBC said to me this morning!

They still offer the PSL in conjunction with OAT only. The max that can be borrowed is 50k, no exceptions which is strange as it dosen't even cover the course costs never mind accom!

To borrow this money you MUST have security in the form of cash, bonds, shares or equity of the value of a whopping 35k or more!

Now if i had a cash deposit of 35k i'd go modular rather than forking out an extra 25k for integrated.

Now i thought OAT were trying to stop those with money being the only ones to learn to fly to trying to give those with the correct apptitude!

I know these are the banks T&C's but you'd think they would try to at least cover course cost as they are now the only FTO the PSL is available for.

kempus

[Diamond 'katana' geezer]

Went to my local hsbc to collect my loan forms.

Manager at this branch said that Cabair are in on the act too. Souds similar to the Oxford situation though. As it has to be done through the branch local to Cabair.

Geez :cool:

[Blinkz]

CTC I've heard also still get the HSBC loan.

[Lee Frost]

Spoke with several HSBC staff today.

1. They have cancelled the mainstream Prof Studies Loan for people training in the modular system.

2. Advised the only loan routes are via the APP programme @ OAT and CTC McAlpine's training.

3. Everything has to go through the local branches. Staff Member at Oxford HSBC was helpful and knew his stuff. He said the majority of their 'flying' business is APP, but on certain circumstances loans would be offered to those who wished to follow the modular 'Professional Pilot' packages (eg CPL+MEIR+MCC). Criteria for this was not specified, and the applicant would have to get themselves to Oxford for a sit-down with them.
Interestingly, those following a modular course would be subject to slightly worse conditions than APP people...the normal PSL rate is 2% above base, but modular students would be on 2.75%. An arrangement fee applies to everybody.

Staff at my local branch said they got the news as 'a bolt from the blue' (I quote). Apparantly the change in policy has been driven by them getting their fingers burned from a few bad eggs going through then declaring bankrupt.

Personally I think someone in HSBC management has made a poor call. Muddy thinking must be very much in vogue. Arguably the pilot recruitment situation is beginning to show real movement, and well, I refer you to back to the response from the HSBC frontline staff.

I'm not fat, dumb or happy at all with this policy change and think I'll let my boots do the talking.....Of course I'm not suggesting other HSBC mod students do the same :E but its worth recumembering that they won't realise they've made a booby if we all just continue to service our accounts as per.

Think about it.
LF

[wubalaj]

Think about it guys.......HSBC are probably yet to generate a decent yeald from all the loans they gave out post 9/11 and are understandably beginning to twitch, therefore no loans to anyone who does not have the backing of OAT and the likes.

[Maude Charlee]

I bet it has more to do with unemployed pilots declaring themselves bankrupt and escaping substantial loan payments. Whilst things have improved massively over the last 18 months, it still isn't easy to walk out of flight shool and straight into a well-paid job, so there is still a significant risk to the bank that they will end up with a bad debt.

[Blueskyrich]

Hello guys,

A few of you who've been around here a couple of years may remember a post I made about the process I've been through with HSBC and how I'd got on with them.

Well, sadly to say - it's a relationship that's souring very, very quickly. I'm currently in for £18k secured , £18k unsecured and will need about another £13K to finish.

The local branch that initially dealt with my enquiry have been very unhelpful since and things have got very messy. Certain promises haven't been kept and they've even started to take payments on the first £18k secured, even though I'm still drawing down money from the £18k unsecured - even me with my limited financial knowledge realises that this is a bit bizarre for them to let me rob unsecured Peter to pay secured Paul! These payments have started without me even being finished, despite assurances at the outset :( The branch seem very happy to wash their hands of this and I'm finding it very hard to find anyway forward with HSBC.

So, I'm looking to find out branches with people in who know the PSL product and understand how it works. I need to get in touch with someone within HSBC who is likely to listen and at least look at this mess with common sense! If you know of someone or can advise based on personal experience, I'd love to hear from you! PM is fine also.

Incidentally, I'm in the middle of my ATPL's which for some bizarre reason, I'm quite enjoying ;)

Thanks a million,

Bluesky

[redsnail]

Maude Charlie,

I reckon you're on the money. From what I have been reading in the papers about debt and the banks obvious nervousness at it. They are now trying to minimise their risk ie exposure to large unsecured loans that may be defaulted on.

The govt is also concerned about the large amount of debt (other than mortgages) that people are carrying.

[The African Dude]

Blueskyrich,

You mention that these payments have started without you even being finished, despite assurances at the outset. Did they ever put that in writing? If so you have a good case for not paying up quite so soon!!

The written word is what people cannot argue about.. and it's not as hard to get people to listen when you ave written proof.

Good luck mate,
A fellow bank-loather

[Bluesteel705]

Personally I want nothing more to do with HSBC,

after agreeing my PSL loan on the 5th of July they rang to tell me that even though they had approved it, they hadnt recieved the memo stating that it was to be discontinued on the 1st. Therefore they were "unable to help me at this time."

After telling me this they hung up without really giving me chance to ask any questions, and its useless to ring them because you cant speak to anyone in the branch just someone in an Indian call centre who tells you to call the branch :confused:

Which has really screwed up my plans.

Looks like the RAF for me now ;)

[Leezyjet]

Oh Bugger. :sad:

Looks like it's going to have to be a normal loan for me then, which means repayments every month.

I've worked out that I could do the remainder of my training for a little over £25K, and most banks will loan that amount fairly easily. If I go much over, then will have to use the flexible friend I guess.

This really is a blow to those of us without rich mummies and daddies. Fortunately though most modular courses (OAT and Cabair excluded) seem to hover around the £30K mark so a loan for £25K and £5K savings or credit card should mean that alot of people can still consider flying as a career, although it does mean that money for the monthly repayments needs to be found during the training course.

However there is one very rich entreprenuer who likes aviation and happens to have a financial company too. Maybe a letter or 10 to him requesting that his financial company offer the type of loan that HSBC has just stopped might persuade his company to offer it. :\

:)

[stevejames53]

Leezy,

I'm assuming you're talking about Mr Virgin Atlantic himself - the thought had crossed my mind to write to him. Maybe a coordinated effort could be the way forward?

If there's someone who would know how to go about this in the most effective way then I'm sure you'd get plenty of signatures on a petition!! ;)

Steve

[Bluesteel705]

Going on VA's Hour Requirements wont this just turn into another A* candidate who can probably already afford it / CTC McAlpineesque thing?

But hell, if it might get me on a plane, count me in. :ok:

[NoTimeToWaste]

I suppose the withdrawl of the PSL loan will be bad news for FTE unless they have a similar agreement with HSBC?

The reason i bring this is up is that i was leaning towards studying at FTE, can anybody shed any light?

[Blinkz]

From other posts it looks like FTE has a deal with one of the major spanish banks.

[VFE]

Think about it guys.......HSBC are probably yet to generate a decent yeald from all the loans they gave out post 9/11 and are understandably beginning to twitch, therefore no loans to anyone who does not have the backing of OAT and the likes.
You start paying back the loan on the agreed date regardless of job status. So unless you falter they'll be getting their yeild regardless of whether you're sat in a groundfloor office or an office at FL350.

As for guys declaring themselves bankcrupt in order to escape the repayments then it's pretty absurd owing to the fact they require security for loans above certain amounts. Most common form of security is a house, either yours or your parents so declaring bankcruptcy means all that would go bye bye first.

People tend to view those taking bankcruptcy as some sort of easy way out these days. For me to consider bankruptcy would mean my parents losing their house so not an option. Also, consider the financial hardships that follow bancruptcy when it comes to obtaining credit, jobs, mortgage, insurance etc....

Not an attractive option for a budding international jetsetter is it?

VFE.

[niraj.patel]

FTE have a special arrangement with BBVA for loans for the FTE course. You may borrow the full amount of the course, and in either Euros or Sterling. The Euro interest rate was quoted to me a couple of days ago as 2.114%, and the Sterling base rate as 4.75%. Interest on both is 1.75% above base rates. The Euro rate appears significantly cheaper, but you have to weigh this up with the fact that your earnings are likely to be in Sterling and you will need to pay the loan back in Euros if you choose the Euro option, hence the strength of the Euro at the time of repayment is important.

Either way, I think the BBVA package is much cheaper than that offered by HSBC. I was told by Sanjay Vallabh, who deals with all the OAT loans at the Kidlington branch that if FTE wanted to, they too could set up a bespoke loan plan with HSBC, but have not yet done so.

Should anyone require further information, please PM me.

Niraj.

[nibi786]

please help!

I am startin a modular as of sept for a CPL. both parts include training in Orlando (which i assume is OAT). lookin to apply tommorow for my PSL - will i be affected by this stupid piece of news? (sorry little stressed after recieving phonecall from cabair asking for 3k deposit then reading this)!!!!

Please help me someone!

[Bluesteel705]

Do these FTE loans with HSBC require standard security?

[zedex7rrrrrrr]

When I took a loan 2 years ago through the Chiswick branch of HSBC, it was not secured. I don't know what they are offering now

[Kempus]

Ok, here's the deal. As i posted in my last post HSBC some more info.

For those with no house to secure a loan on like me here is what they want!

35K cash to frozen in an HSBC account for the length of the loan, so from the day the loan starts till they get the final payment, thats 2yrs for the course plus grace period then 11yrs so, 13yrs you cant touch that dough!

They would like you aslo to make a "personal contribution to your career to show dedication and seriousness" and so the total they will loan under any circumstance is 50K.

Now, like me, you do the math!

eg OAT course = 60,000
Living costs = 10,000

total excluding resits and genral f ups =70,000

Now HSBC for 50,000

Now you've given them 35K, here you go say HSBC, here 50K.

Thank you, now i need 20K to finish the course and live for the next year and a bit. where will i get this, oh yeah along with the 35K i had sitting around i've got another 20K taking up space!

So in order to borrow 50K from HSBC at just over 6% APR, do a course costing 70K, i have to put a personal contribution of 55K.
You can do the math with me so, i'm paying interest on 50K to borrow 15K!

eh, what, eh, mmmmmm, excuse me???????? sorry Sanjay???

mine and my folks exact words!

:confused:

[Artificial Horizon]

I think that this is all down to the banks getting twitchy about the rising levels of debt. I used an HSBC proff. studies loan 4 years ago to fund my training and have now almost paid it all back to them and HSBC has always been excellent when I have needed more credit or services. Just a couple of days though I called them to get a temporary extension to my overdraft (£300 only) for a new car and they told me ''NO CHANCE'', when asked why they said that the bank had carried out a review of lending and were clamping down on any unsecured lending, they would however raise my credit card limit by the said amount, go figure!! I can only guess that HSBC is having some trouble at the moment with defualts on unsecured lending which has buggered it for everyone else.

[Lee Frost]

Art H,


My branch said the change in policy was a 'bolt from the blue' up until which time they were not aware of any big problems with the loans.

I think its quite unlikely that people able to complete some amount of training + ATPL exams are somehow unable to service the loans while they wait for jobs.

This might appear a bit cynical but consider the two scenarios, for someone who has invested £30k of their own money - they need another c£20k to finish:

1. PSL, borrow the money, 6months - 1 year later get a flying job, overpay the loan and get it cleared with no early repayment penalty.

2. Personal Loan (which is what they still offered me), borrow the money at 8.9%APR, Whack in £8-9k in loan protection insurance, together with penalties for early payment. Total yield for the Bank = lots for than PSLs.

HSBC has decided it likes option 2 better. I don't believe they have been stung quite so bad. The lady I spoke with said they have had "a couple go bad" .... 2 loans?

When they offered me a PSL two years ago I questioned why the bank would give the loan on such good terms with no early repayment penalty. The sincerely given answer was that the bank saw its customers as people who after training would be looking for mortgages, investment products and other financial services -

I've got what I need from another source, and am about to close down the HSBC account. Others doing likewise would perhaps send the message through that loyalty works both ways.

LF :}
(Rarr - off to eat a bowl of Pedigree Chum, Yum yum)

[Pole Hill]

When they offered me a PSL two years ago I questioned why the bank would give the loan on such good terms with no early repayment penalty. The sincerely given answer was that the bank saw its customers as people who after training would be looking for mortgages, investment products and other financial services -


Exactly. For them to pull the loan is a great shame, not just for us, but for themselves too. I was going to use it to part finance my training. What do you do if an airline hires you on the condition that you pay for your own TR?
I'll be joining you in closing the account, and I'll politely tell them why.
POL

[mungo_55]

uh oh. This is by far the worst news I've had since leaving my job 3 weeks ago to carry on with my training full time. I had high hopes of getting an HSBC loan for 20k. I don't particularly want to get tied to OAT in order to get a loan. I'm already down the modular route and like to pick the training providers I think are best for each part of the training.

It would be good to keep posting other loan alternatives on here as people start investigating the alternatives. If anyone does put together a cry for help to Mr Branson, give me a shout, I'd sign the letter / request like a shot !

I think I'm going to see if the government's Career Development Loan scheme is still running....

[Farrell]

So then, that's a bit like HSBC saying:

Ok Farrell, you want 50k to buy a car? No problem......but you can only have a choice of two cars.

There appears IMHO to be a slight problem here in the interests of fair trading.

Are OAT and CTC providing written guarantees that pilots will get a job after training with them? If not, then surely this loan should be open to a student who chooses to go to any school.

Where's the sense in this?

[zomerkoning]

Hye you guys,

Well first of all it must suck that HSBC has pulled the plug on loans for aspiring pilots, I don't think that how much money your parents have or a really friendly relative have any inpact on who are good pilots and who are not...

I thought I'd give you the low-down on the situation here in The Netherlands. Here in Holland the situation has existed for quite a while with only 1 or 2 banks giving loans for aspering pilots and only after they have enough security (like a house or a lot of money).

The Dutch flying schools came up with a solution as a lot of potential pilots where not able to find the financing to start their training.

The solution they found was the guarentee fund, it basicly means that if you get past all the entrance tests the school will post the security for your loan at the bank. As these schools have enough money the bank gives pretty good rates (4,25%) at the moment plus that you don't have to start paying back untill after 2 years after you finish your training.

An added bonus is that the school has an extra guarantee, if you don't have a job within 2 years (as a pilot) they will start paying the bank and you only have a loan with the guarentee fund and not the bank (who are not as understanding of the ups and downs in the industry).

You might wonder what the use of this information is, seeing that the most readers of the board don't live in Holland. Well the 2 shools doing this sceme are :

KLS (KLM Flight Academy)
EPST

EPST does all their training with OAT in Oxford, so basicly you'll be having all the benifits of flying at OAT while not having to put up your house in security. I have no idea if this all applies to UK residents, but you could always ask them...

[Lee Frost]

Thanks Z,

This is the sort of post that PPrune should see more of. I've got my funding by another route, but it makes interesting reading.

Cheers,


LF

[VarigMD11]

For all of us who dont intend on splashing over 60 grand at OAT, but could make use of a loan in the 30 grand region, what possibilties are we left with now that HSBC have deserted us??

Cheers

[Master Yoda]

Anyone heard/got any further developments regarding the HSBC loan?

[TenAndie]

from what i gather, HSBC will not be doing these loans again.

Get working to save up £40,000 :ugh:

[Pole Hill]

Get working to save up £40,000
Either that, or pop down to the bank, preferably HSBC, with a gun and a stocking over your head. Maybe not.

Don't forget though that you can get the CDL (career development loan) from various providers, one being Barclays. They will loan up to £8000 with conditions more favorable than a standard loan. :ok:
Not quite £40K, but its £8K less saving to do :)
POL

[hixton]

If you do choose Barclays make sure you try them well in advance.
They will loose all your sensitive ID - passport, licence, bills.
You will have the worry of being cloned.
You will have re send most of the documents again and again.
They will tell you that they cannot find your school on their approved list, then they will find it in around a week.
Your course may start before you have even got a definate decision as to whether they will give you the money, and your school will think you are not going to pay.
Every time you call you will be speaking to an Indian call centre.
Apart from this they are fine!

[jamielatham]

Hi All;

So i'v picked a flight school for my needs, now im interested in finding out how i could get the loan?

Has anyone has a recent loan for around £35,000?, i know hsbc do a loan but i dont think they do one for that amount...

Please could you give me some ideas on where i could get one...

Thanks

Jay

PS, i am doing my flight training hopefully at Naples Air Center, {no comments!}

[veetwo]

James,

Unfortunately, HSBC have withdrawn their professional studies loan, so you can no longer secure funding that way unless you intend to train at one of the integrated schools who still have an arrangement with the bank (FTE, OAT, CTC etc).

Your best option if you are going to follow the modular route is (in my humble opinion) to take it stage by stage and try to remain in employment while you are studying for the groundschool.

You might consider applying for a government career development loan (CDL) and details can be found at:

http://www.lifelonglearning.co.uk/cdl/

However, you can only secure a maximum of £8000 from a CDL.

Other options I'd be looking at are graduate loans (did you go to uni?) which you can usually take out up to £15,000 at reasonably preferential rates.

At the bottom of the pile is the "run of the mill" personal loan from your high street bank or someone else (such as lombard direct, etc) which usually advertises loans up to £25, 000. However, I would be concerned about prospective pilots who have undertaken no aptitude testing and have no previous flying experience, if I was the bank manager. You'd need to have a really rock solid business plan to secure that type of funding - and quite possibly some UK based equity on which to secure the loan (a parental guarantee or security on property). Besides the logistical problems actually getting the loan.. I suspect companies like lombard direct and other loan companies are absolute ******** to do business with. I'd do a lot of research before signing on the dotted line.

Also, a good idea would be to go and do some aptitude testing somewhere - which would strengthen your business plan and be a good thing to do to prove to yourself that you have what it takes to make it through the training.

Unfortunately securing financial assistance is really quite difficult, especially since HSBC decided to stop funding modular students recently. It might well be a case of having to go out and through hard work earn at least some of the money required to do your training.

The truth is, you cannot expect someone to simply loan you £35, 000 just like that.

Good luck whatever you decide.....

V2

[markflyer6580]

Check your p.ms. Mark

[link4]

Hi guys n gals,

Im 18, been flying since i was 16, i hold a PPL and am looking to apply for OAT for this summer, i understand that if successful as a candidate OAT provide funding, but if i decide to join Cabair they do not.

And since Pro Studies Loans have been stopped by HSBC directly to their customers, that doesnt leave much choice on how to raise such serious amount of cash (£50Kish)

I do not want to remortgage my parents house or take any help from them as i dont want to jeopardise them or their money. Its my dream not theirs, so can anyone please help?

Thanks alot :cool:

[Dozza2k]

OAT sure didn't fund my course, but that was before these part sponsored things have cropped up. I'm not sure they completely fund you either. Anyone know for sure?

[Sean H]

It would be alot cheaper if you go the modular route mate....

[adwjenk]

Hi

OAT dont provide funding for you, i wish they did lol.
They will assist you in getting the HSBC loan. They will provide a business plan and you basically fill it in, they will also check it over and make sure all is well before it goes to HSBC.
Basically they do everything possible to help you secure the loan.

Want any more help just PM, im also starting at Oxford in the summer.

Best of luck

ADWJENK

:ok:

P.S, the schemes with excel and thomas cook run through OAT did not cover the entire cost of the course, it was basically a guarented job before they started, which made the loan process alot easier. Also the course price was reduced basically becuase the airline could clame back the VAT from the training. Thats all i know if anyone know more please add it Cheers!!

[MIKECR]

I tried HSBC last week for an £8000 Professional Studies Loan but was told they wouldnt do it unless I was on a recognised integrated(I'm modular) course with either OAT or CTC. Despite the fact im in a well paid job, I have equity in my property, and putting together a solid busniess plan, they just wouldnt do it. I also tried Barclays but was told the same thing. They're loss I say!

The only other option is the career development loan, which I believe certain banks/lenders will provide, for modular training. The max they will lend however is £8000. I'm off to try them instead.

[link4]

Thanks guys, and yes you're right dozza n adwjenk they only help with getting a loan, my bad. And its hard enough to get a loan for the integrated let alone the modular route, which is why im not doing it. Catch 22. Besides i know airlines prefer integ cadets as it helps them see that the candidate will be more likely to succeeded in the type in a short space of time.

[wbryce]

If you can't afford (like 90% of us) the costs of integrated then go modular! simple as!

You pay as you go, it may take longer...but hey... you still get there!

[markflyer6580]

I managed get £40k from HSBC for a modular course in the summer, rather bizzarely I had a place on the integrated course at Cabair but they would not lend me that much??? still can't work that one out,obviously someone at HSBC is in on the game and knows that integrated courses are a bit pricey for a very small chance of getting a job before a modular student,in the eyes of the manager I spoke to-"you all get the same quals so why lend you £70k?". Fair enough and off I ran with my money.
Also strange in that I have been a HSBC customer for years and not a good one at that,getting myself in to a load of greif about 5 years ago defaults etc yet I now have mortgage and studies loan with them.Not that I am complaining!

The best plan could be to go to my branch armed with lost of nice brochures and a fine bullsh1tting technique(sorry,I mean good convincing skills!) and try again.

Good Luck,pm if you need any more details. Mark:ok:

[MIKECR]

Markflyer6580,

I didnt even get as far as the bank! I had an appointment but 2 days later the girl phoned back and said "sorry, unless your on an integrated course at Oxford or Cabair, we wont do it". Despite the fact im employed with the local Constabulary, earning a respectable wage, I have sizeable equity in my property etc, they wouldnt even give me a look in the door! I have managed to get a years career break from my job but will be able to return to it(guaranteed 35 grand p.a.) when i've finished my CPL. Not even that would sway the banks vote! Pretty ironic considering they give the majority of integrated students 70k and they dont have guaranteed employment at the end! I was only after 8 grand!! The worlds gone mad!!:)

[link4]

well we all know that the bank only look after number one, and of course if it wasnt for 9/11 we would still be able to get personal PSL's.

But the banks did make a huge loss considering they lent on average £50K to X number of trainee pilots and never saw it again!

Catch 22 for both us and them i suppose :rolleyes:

[markflyer6580]

MIKECR

I think it was the equity in my house that swung it,we both thought that the repayments were a joke but if I was to bang it on the mortgage when I have to pay it back,then it will be a small amount extra per month rather than £600.Much more manageable on an F/O's meagre salary!

Who cares if it will be over 25 years,rather than 11? Not me thats for sure,my wife reckons I won't live that long anyhow!(not sure what I have done?).

My house was a steal and its true value at the time was £40k more than I paid,nevermind what its worth now,so in effect the property market paid for my ATPL.
Lets hope there is not a property crash in the near future or i'm ******!!!:}

I won't mind if I have a flying job by then,after all we would all do it for minimum wage anyway. Wouldn't we?:E

[wbryce]

Link,

not really....we dont need a full bank loan to fullfill our training! if you have a job you can use your monthly pages to pay for X training hours per month like I did and many others...

If you can get your PPL, class 1, 150hours and perhaps your ATPLs by distance learning without borrowing a penny and maybe saving a few thousand...your half way there on the spending! and if you wish, you can borrow the remaining money from a bank, they will maybe look at you more positively if you have flying experience with class one and ATPLs.

[Antonio Montana]

Link
You are only 18, Get a job...work bloody hard and save. Go distance learning for your Ground School.
The airlines at the moment could not give a damm if your intergrated or modular, they only care if you have a Type with Hours.
If the banks are unwilling to lend you 50K unsecured, it means there is a good chance they see it as a risk, think about that when you get your dad to sign his house over to them for the loan.
Tony

[MIKECR]

wbryce,

I already have my PPL,night etc, Class 1 and 190 hours, sadly that wasnt even enough for the bank to give me an appointment!

Im sarting my ATPL's F/T beginning of April at GCNS, I was hoping to get the pro studies loan to fund the course(+living costs). The deferred payment would have suited me fine for my 12 months career break from work. Im hoping to lease the flat which will cover the mortgage. My equity is to pay for CPL/IR and MCC. Hopefuly I wont have to borrow anything more than 8k for the ATPL's(we'll see' i hear everyone say!!).

As a plus, I gained over a 100 hours towing gliders at a local gliding club, didnt cost a penny(apart from a tailwheel rating)! We currently have at least 4 tug pilots at the club who have no gliding experience at all, basically local PPL's who turned up asking if they could fly the tug. We all average around 30 - 40 hours a year out of it(and flying a chipmunk too, great fun!). My advice to all pilots out there, get out and knock on a few doors, you never know what might turn up! I now have 2 very good airline contacts out of it too, which is always a help!

Having gone the modular route, and the bonus of free hour building, i've saved myself literally thousands and thousands of pounds compared to integrated(I'll take my chances on the job market!).I have to agree with Markflyer6580 too, property is the only sure thing to invest your cash in. My flat went up almost 30k in the last 2 years!

Happy flying!!

[wbryce]

Mike,

I think if most of us invested in property now we may loose some money! :(

I have thought long and hard about the property ladder but I want to secure my flying first.

I would have assumed your bank would atleast look at you if your only applying for a loan of 20k...a good credit history and proof of dedication to your task would be enough to sway them....ill keep my fingers crossed for when my appointment comes up! :D

P.S. I tried our local parachute/skydiving centre, they required 100hrs P1, IMC rating and 10hrs on type (C206) and £1000 up front which they give you back after 2 years. I may try a few gliding clubs...the local one is winch powered, grr, the not so local one is tug powered.

will

[MIKECR]

wbryce,

I think the problem was that im not/never have been a customer of hsbc or barclays. When i phoned initially, they were quite happy to give me an appointment for the PSL but when they found out what it was for, they cancelled it! I can easily get a 'normal' loan but I would have prefered the PSL because of the deferred payments. I already have an application for the Royal Bank of Scotland Career Loan, so we'll see what that brings. If worsed comes to worse, I can always remortgage.

Good luck trying the gliding clubs, its a hit or a miss whether theyre looking for tuggies or not. Most prefer some gliding experience but if theyre suddenly short of people to fill a rota then they'll take folk without. Even if you just join the club and show some interest, you'll almost certainly get to fly the tug after a wee while. It's certainly worth it considering the amount of free time you'll get. Be prepaired to travel aswell, a round trip of 200 miles(few bob on petrol) isnt too much hassle if your getting 3-5 hours of free flying out of it. Good luck!

p.s. where are your local clubs??

[Dirty Harry 76]

Im with MONTANA on this one. Its been said over and over, trust me when i say the airlines couldnt care less if you got your blue
licence Modular or Integrated. What they are intrested in are things like personal profile, flying experiance/hrs, multi crew hours, twin time, type rating and hours on type.

For all those who want to pay for Integrated courses, Type Ratings etc, no problem your choice, however, in aviation performance and ability will always prevail on the line.........so make sure you have it because you cant buy talent!

@link4

"Besides i know the airlines prefer integ cadets as it helps them see that the candidate will be more likely.........."

What a load of BS streight from the Marketing Department of OAT.


There is a lot of good information for you here my friend. My advice to you is that if you decide to go modular try and keep some structure to your training plan and do it within a reasoanble timescale. Get a job and dont borrow all the money............if you are foolish to do so you will be commiting commercial suicide. Dont be in a rush you are only 18. Good Luck.

[Leezyjet]

I recently got a loan for £25K from Northern Rock. No hassles, no fuss, just applied online, they approved it, sent the forms and a couple of weeks later -voila- cash in my account.

I'm purely using the £25K to pay for the major modules, CPL, ME/IR etc and as I'm still working, I'll fund all the things like test fees etc from my monthly earnings.

:)

[link4]

wbryce,

I already attain a PPL, and from that i have already had other training centres and certain couple airlines show interest. But im just looking atm for something thats right for me :D

Antonio:

'it means there is a good chance they see it as a risk, think about that when you get your dad to sign his house over to them for the loan.'

Antonio Montana, i can tell you didnt bother to even read my first post, which is where i stated that im not going to put my parents finances in jeopardy, I wouldn't dream of it.

I should also raise to attention im in the last year of my college so its pretty hard, when i say that i mean impossible to find a full-time job, however i will be working part-time at EGKK, however not exactly on £50/hr, so id rather go integ instead of doing everything seperately :)

Dirty Harry 76, i appreciate your help and your opinion, but i have a couple of friends who told me that integ even in these times is not the best, but better than modular, and i value their opinion as they are only 3 and 4 yrs older than me, making them around 22, and they have found themselves in the right seat of Flybe :cool: Thanks i'll keep it in mind though ;)

[wbryce]

But is integrated really so much better that its worth an extra 30k ? in my opinion, no.

At the end of the day, you get the same licence what ever route you take.

An airline will not pick an integrated candidate over a modular candidate if the modular candidate performs better during sim testing or shows more ability / technical knowledge and vice versa.

[Antonio Montana]

Link4
Just a couple of things......
I did read your first post, taking it that you are not going to put your parents house on the line, could you please let me know which financial institution will lend a 18yr old in excess of £60,000 without security??? Leg breakers inc maybe, or prehaps Sharky loans??

Your friends who are older 22 (god to be that young again) tell you to go intergrated, hmmm I am willing to bet at least one of them is intergrated yes?

You are still young enough to get a degree, that will stand you in very goodstead when you go for jobs and if things do not work out in aviation then you will have something to fall back on.

I am a lot older and wiser than you son (late 30's),when I was your age I was a bit clever and knew it all as well.
It took me a hell of a long time to achive my dream, I have my fATPL and I am looking for a job, nothing in life is easy, you do not have things given to you on a plate ever.

I don't know why I waste my time with kids who know more than me, it's rather sad, so I will not get into a argument with you son.

BTW have a look at this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=201002&perpage=20&pagenumber=3), it is rather long but the remarks given by Moderators and Alex Whittingham, of Bristol Groundschool are well worth reading. I am sure that they know a little bit more than your friends.

[Dirty Harry 76]

link4

Your original post was funding. You are obviously not comfortable having the burden of a huge loan or jepordising the security of your parents home and I dont blame you. I have been there and understand how it feels.

Remember that FTO's want to sell you training courses to make money out of you. If anyone tells you they will "help you find a job" its pure BS - everyone finds their own.

My profile is - Engineering Degree - Modular - 320hrsTT - MCC and JOC course - 6months to find a Job after FATPL - First Job RHS B737 classic and NG. My point = I did it for alot less money than you will spend at OAT for 170hrs or so and an integrated course.

One of the main reasons why I got a job was I didnt listen to FTO's trying to sell me an FI rating etc. I got to know people in the airlines who told me what I needed to do to be employable. I took their advice and got a job. I doubt your friends at 22 are in any position to give financial and career advice to you and by the sounds of it have already been brainwashed by an FTO's marketing department.

Whatever you choose, if its funding help and advice you want I can highly recommend these guys:

www.beapilot.co.uk

Good Luck DH76

[Tonic Please]

I'm 21, PPL 90h. Canadian. Will be residing in Canada asap.

I teach Jazz Piano fulltime, (little french too), and am currently saving the money (about £15K) to take out to Canada and get the CPL, Multi, Float and Instrument.

However, my daily routines are being somewhat (silently) jeapordised because of IMPATIENCE. I know I have only just turned 21, but soon I'll be 24! I feel, rightly or wrongly, that I am running out of time. This is naive, yet that doesn't stop me wanting to just get a loan with interest, and paying it back in time.

I went to HSBC, can't help. Said the only loan I could have was Professional Study Loan and aviation wasn't on the list. Halifax, can't help. Complained that because I buggered off for 8 months to France, and have come back asking for money, it's not how they operate. He did say that some place would be prepared but the interest was be high. That got me thinking.

If I need £13k, and I got a loan of £16k, I'd leave the extra £3k seperate so that it could be used to pay back the monthly bill, therefore not directly affecting me. I'll always have Jazz and French on my side as income and employment, and I also have a website which will offer online jazz/blues lessons (not allowed to advertise it here im afraid), so thats picking up and sure to be a good money earner. I therefore am in the mindframe of......

Get the heavy interest loan more than I need, leave couple of grand aside to pay the loan back so I am not being affected, keep putting income from teaching/website into account to leave me alone for longer and longer, get to Canada ASAP, do the biz...and see what's happening.

I'm fortunate moreso than some as I have the income from various sources so it's not a "give up career take a plunge and pray" situation. Perhaps some of you would be kind enough as to provide some feedback.

Regards, Dan.

[d70f6v]

Hi there, I was wondering if any others who were in a similar non-home owning situation would be able to shed light on how to get the cash together to do an ATPL? With OAT as I undertand it its a case of getting the position then HSBC will give you the loan?
How's about the modular course, how many modules are there and how much (roughly) would each cost?
Thanx, I've just started investigating the money aspect and it's pretty shocking to say the least!

[Nimbus5]

HSBC will loan up to £25K unsecured if you have good credit. You can use it for Modular or Integrated courses. They also go as high as £50K for Integrated courses and believe it or not as high as £74K for CTC Wings, which has got to be the most expensive Modular course anywhere. Yeah there is a job offer attached and that's why the bank loans so much, but why does it cost so much for a Modular course? The bank loans £60K for CTC course plus £10K for expenses, plus £4K for the PPL if you don't alreday have it.

[mungo_55]

The last I heard (a few months back) was that the HSBC professional studies loan was no longer being offered for commercial pilot training. Do you know if they have re-instated it, or has it been re-instated only for use with certain training schools ?

thanks

Mungo

[geordiejet]

I've not looked in to it in depth, but i believe the only give it to OAT students from now on.

[just_go_to]

My experience has shown that Nimbus5 is correct-

A month ago I spoke to HSBC and they are only prepared to loan up to £25k on an unsecured basis for an OAT course. They will lend up to £50k with a secured loan.

These type of loans are not just available to Oxford students. Other integrated schools are applicable too.

I suggest you have a chat with HSBC so that you can discuss your individual circumstances. You'll also get to see if the situation has changed in the last month.

Good luck.

[d70f6v]

Thanks all, very informative. My credit's fine but I've no house to secure it against (cue parents??!!). I'll talk to the bank!

[BOZZATO]

Hi there Chaps!

As a current HSBC employee, i can categorically say without a shadow of a doubt that we are still offering the professional studies loan, but only in conjunction with OAT. Each case is determined upon it's merits, but we will lend up to 25k unsecured and 50k max secured. A while back we did lend all course fee's but the bank decided to change this. Although they will lend an extra £500 to cover charges!

I am in the process of drawing down my funds so that i can commence at OAT on their APP260 course.

If you are interested in training with Flight Training Europe down in Jerez, i believe they have a close relationship with a Spanish bank, who will lend all course fees. I presume that the Spanish bank would be slightly cheaper due to their interest rates?? I am completely sure of all the details, if your looking to take this route then i would recommend contacting Mary Jo or Carmen down at FTE!

If you need any further details about HSBC's professional studies loan, pm me and i'kll give you the contact details for the chap who deals with them. His name is Mark Lineham. All applications must go through the Oxford Cornmarket street branch as no other branch is permitted to deal with these loans any more.

All the best!

Bozzato:ok:

[d70f6v]

Hi Bozzato, your PM's are full so I'll have to go public. Thanks for the reply, very informative. I'm not a home owner so 25K would be the limit. My Dad's a Captain just retired from BA and he's able to supply 10k. So that's 35. How much is the integrated course at Oxford? Looking at Cabair's scheme it's 50k and I'm guessing that Oxford's is slightly more....

Also, how difficult are the entry tests at Oxford? Again, I tried to look at the Cabair examples but the webpage didn't seem to work. I'm guessing that with a good deal of swatting I could pass the Maths/Physics stuff. Are there "unpreparables" too i.e. psychometric tests etc? Any idea of how many who take it pass? And any idea if they let you retry until you get in??!!

[BOZZATO]

Hi there!

The cost of the OAT APP is £63500, that's covers all course fees, CAA exam fees and accommodation in Scotsdale. It also covers first attempt for all exams as well as your uniform and travel costs to the USA! Accommodation in the UK is additional but is approximately £150 pw self catering.

The tests are very straight forward and the only thing i recommend is that you be yourself and enjoy it! The maths and physics aren't super difficult either. If your confident with your GCSE maths and physics you should be fine! Once you've completed the assessment you will be given a full de brief. If you don't meet the grade you can retry but after a specific period of time, it does vary, but i would say it would be at least 6 months! The group exercises are good fun and the simulator assessment is relatively straight forward!

You say your father is an ex BA pilot? You should be fine, it's in your blood!!

I'm not sure about the pass/fail rate, although i remember speaking to one of the advisors way back in August and they said it's difficult to say. They've had groups of people fail and then again they've had groups pass!

Just remember the 7 p's - piss poor preparation produces piss poor performance!

If i can pass the assessment than anyone can!!!

I wish you the very best!

I've cleared my inbox so if you've got anymore questions just drop me a line:)

Regards

James:ok:

[just_go_to]

Hi there Chaps!
As a current HSBC employee, i can categorically say without a shadow of a doubt that we are still offering the professional studies loan, but only in conjunction with OAT............applications must go through the Oxford Cornmarket street branch as no other branch is permitted to deal with these loans any more.
Bozzato:ok:

Cabair (CCAT) in conjunction with Milton Keynes HSBC offer these loans too.

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

You can get some pretty good low rate deals on credit cards. If you can get several of them you may well be able to raise the cash. Not an ideal way of borrowing but if needs must. As a word of warning. Make sure that you are also able to obtain more funds in case your costs are higher than anticipated; they will be!

[High Wing Drifter]

For UK people, dont forget the govt sponsored CDL:

http://www.lifelonglearning.dfes.gov.uk/cdl/

[Elixir]

I went to HSBC about 16 months ago now with a thorough business plan asking to borrow a bit more than their max £50k and explaining how I would be able to pay this back even if not successful in getting a job. They offered me £56k in the end - so they do look at each case on its individual merits and can go higher than £50k.

[scroggs]

You can get some pretty good low rate deals on credit cards. If you can get several of them you may well be able to raise the cash. Not an ideal way of borrowing but if needs must. As a word of warning. Make sure that you are also able to obtain more funds in case your costs are higher than anticipated; they will be!

NO! NO! NO! Credit cards are emphatically not the way to go. Credit cards may offer attractive initial interest rates - some at 0% for the intial three or six-month period - but thereafter they return to the (variable) standard interest rate. Most are around 16%, some as much as 27%!! On a loan of £50,000, that's interest payments of £13,500 a year! Even at 12% (about the cheapest you'll get), you're talking £6,000 a year. If the card requires the standard minimum of 5% of the outstanding debt per month, you're looking at monthly credit card payments of £2,500, much of which will be interest. If you can afford that, you can probably negotiate a deal for staged payments to your FTO.

Stay away from credit cards other than as an instrument to protect your investment - in UK, all purchases over £100 by credit card are protected by the credit card issuer.

Scroggs

[d70f6v]

Thanks for the advice all, appreciated. It seems to be a case of speaking to HSBC it would seem as they are apparently one of the few banks willing to let people persue their dreams!

I've considered going to the US to train too, there seem to be plenty of schools (recommended on Pprune) willing to train for around the 35k mark. At the risk of irritating those who've bigger commitments than myself (no wife, kids, house etc) could I ask why more people don't do this? Am I missing something? How easy would it be to get a bank loan either in the US (as a non-national) or one that could be used in the US (i.e. from a UK bank)? How compatible are the US ATPL equivalents and the European versions? This may be answered in another thread so apologies in advance, without the search facility it's a little hard to find.

Thanks again, pretty sure flying is in the blood and much to my mother's distaste I think it's inheritable.

[Charlie Zulu]

To obtain an FAA ATPL you require 1500 hours so that will mean working as a flight instructor, which also means you'll need the rights to work in the United States.

However if you obtain an FAA CPL/IR, this can be converted to the JAA CPL/IR. However it will still cost you a lot of money.

Upon your return to the UK, the process to go through to convert the FAA CPL/IR to the JAA CPL/IR is as follows:

1) Undertake the JAA ATPL Theoretical course and pass ALL 14 exams.

2) JAA CPL Skills Test which will require training as determined by the head of training at the FTO.

3) A 15 hour JAA IR course with a JAA IR Skills Test at the end. However if you have minimum hours under the FAA system then you will find it hard going passing in the minimum 15 hour course.

If you have an FAA ATP with 1500 hours or more then you'll be exempt from the brush up courses if distance learning for the ATPL's. However if you have a lot of multi crew time (so that'll mean getting a job on the basis of your FAA ATP in the first instance) then there are various other options that you'll gain, but you'll still need to do all or some of the JAA ATPL examinations.

I'm going through the conversion process at the moment. Half way through the JAA ATPL exams. The conversion process, including the JAA CPL/IR and MCC is going to cost me about £15,000 on TOP of what I have already spent on the FAA courses.

[d70f6v]

OK, so sounds like it's getting close to simply doing it in the UK then! Really was too good to be true!

[Leezyjet]

Try www.northernrock.co.uk (http://www.northernrock.co.uk).

or

http://www.moneysupermarket.com/

I compared the loans on money supermarket and Northern Rock was the best at the time I took it out. You should be able to get £25k unsecured with no probs providing you have a good credit rating.

With carefully managed costs, you should be able to do the lot for not much more which you could fund from working part time or save up before hand.

:)

[Lord Flasheart]

I believe BBVA lend the full course costs for Flight Training Europe students and their interests rates are somewhat lower which makes quite a difference when you're talking about 65k!

You could probably save around 20k going modular however. I'm not going to recomend one over the other as everyone is different. All i will say is be aware that OAT, CABAIR and FTE aren't the only good schools offering UK CPL/IR training. Sadly many great modular schools get over looked.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

P.S. I didn't read all the posts contained here about FAA liciencing but from my very limited knowledge don't bother. I'd be very surprised if you save any money doing it that way.

[portsharbourflyer]

Having dual FAA and JAA ratings can widen the jobs available to you. Although the powers above have been trying to clamp down on FAA registered aircraft in the UK, there is still a reasonable number of aircraft on the N reg in the UK. If you have the FAA ratings as well then you may be able to get a job flying something on the N reg based in the UK.

[WingDown]

Hi there,

I have read many of the threads regarding financial loans for flight training as I am looking at starting this summer. This question is really aimed at people who have taken loans from the banks shortly after graduating from university.

I will be graduating this June with the minimum student loan (approx £9000) and would like to know if people in a similar position found that this affected or limited the loan amount the bank allowed you to take on. Of course this will vary due to individual circumstances however I would like to get a feel for how recently graduated uni students got on when visiting the banks.

Any views or experiences greatly appreciated!

Cheers,

WD

[Re-Heat]

I believe BBVA lend the full course costs for Flight Training Europe students and their interests rates are somewhat lower which makes quite a difference when you're talking about 65k!
But you are fully exposed to exchange rates. Careful.

[Scoobster]

Hi WD,

I am exactly the same position, I have just finished my MSc Sep 2005 and have a total debt of about £10 000, if your credit rating is good then it wont limit you when approaching Banks. If on the other hand you have a poor credit score then you could find yourself a bit tight.

The SL is considered a debt that is payable only after finding suitable employment above a certain threshold and payable directly to the SLC so I dont think the banks will concern themselves with this?

I may be wrong, but when I made some initial enquiries, this is what I was told. Its purely to do with your credit rating and whether you have any SUBSTANTIAL COMMITMENTS such as a mortgage and the SL is not considered as substantial.

No doubt someone will slate me and say that Im wrong but hey :p Best thing to do is approach your bank manager directly.

Good Luck

Scoobs

[WingDown]

Hi Scoobs,

This is as I thought, I know I will not have to pay back my student loan until earning over a certain threshold, just wondered whether already having this debt would affect the loan I would be offered. I guess the only accurate answer is going to come from the banks!

I understand your point regarding a poor credit rating, fortuantly I have managed to get through uni without needing credit cards so this should not be a problem. I presume this would be the only way to generate a poor credit rating?

WD

[combineharvester]

When I graduated Uni in June last year i was in a fairly dire financial situation with Debts to the bank as well as the old Student Loan. But I went to HSBC suited and booted with a nice glossy business plan and gave a good spiel and it seemed to work. I had been banking with them since age 13 though. This compunded the confusion for me as it meant the knew how much trouble I got into during Uni going over Overdraft limits and bouncing Cheques etc.
I think what i am trying to say is they will judge each case on its own merits.
Hope this helps.
Proper Job Young'un

[WindSheer]

Hello people,

I know there have been many threads on financing for a diamond studded ATPL licence on this forum, but I wonder if anyone could shed a faint glimour of light for me??
I currently live with my girlfriend in a house we jointly own, with an average sized mortgage, and very little savings.
How do I go about getting funds? Am I able to re-mortgage to fund my flying, or does it have to be a loan?? I am in a fixed interest at the mo', with my 2 year fixed period ending in June; giving me the option to change it.

Help will be appreciated people.
Over and nearly out!!

[Bealzebub]

A mortgage is a loan, albeit one that is secured on the property.

The advantages may be that the interest rate is preferable to an unsecured loan. You may be able to borrow a greater amount because of the security.

The disadvantages may be that the loan is usually long term and therefore the total amount repayable may be much greater if the term is realized. Your home is at risk if you fail to keep up the repayments. It may prove harder to trade up as there will be less equity available if other borrowing has been consolidated into the mortgage.

You will still be subject to the lenders normal criteria in respect of your ( and your partners) earnings with regard to the total sum borrowed. If the property is jointly owned you will need your partners written agreement or consent to the new or adjusted loan.

At the end of the day it is an option, but it is still borrowing and additionally it carries the risk of losing your home if you default.

[WindSheer]

So if you can't afford to pay back an un-secured loan, what happens?? Surely they will still get your home in exchange??

[Bealzebub]

No they won't.

That is the difference between a secured and an unsecured loan. In the case of the latter, the lender has a greater risk exposure and that is why the interest rate is often higher and the amount of borrowing more restricted.

[potkettleblack]

Sounds like you need to firstly speak to your existing mortgage company about what options are available to you in order to raise additional capital.

Some things for you to consider:-

- do you know how much equity is in the property ie: sale price less mortgage. A few years ago when property prices were going through the roof lenders were offering believe it or not 110% mortgages and the like. Nowadays most are more conservative and the norm is in the range of 80-90%.

- if you have some equity in the property and your current bank won't play ball you can always transfer your mortgage to another provider. Make sure that they will enable you to draw down some cash though against your mortgage. My bank Halifax were willing to lend me up to £35k just a month ago on my property based on the equity I had with no questions asked. It was actually for DIY/renovations but in reality I could have spent it all in the pub should I have wished.

- some unscrupulous people (I am sure you are not one;) ) go for self certification mortgages and low and behold fib about their incomes in order to raise more capital. I am sure you wouldn't think of doing that..wink wink!

When I was looking for mortgages many moons ago Charcol (a broker) had a good online website which kept track of the various deals on the go. Think the Times on Sunday is also a good read in their money section of the current rates.

Clearly usual caveats apply about how will you be able to fund the loans if you don't get a job flying or that job flying won't cover the increased mortgage payments etc but I am sure you have that figured out.

Good luck

[Danny_manchester]

With a secured loan, you would be able to borrow a lot more cash, with an unsecured, i think its usualy about £25k tops.

[Tim_donovan]

FlyerGuy,
Options: Well may be
1. Buy a house and borrow a shed load more and use that to pay for your course. And at the same time get your spare room / rooms rented out. Thus paying a pecentage of the morgage.
2. Ask your old man nicely if he wouldn't mind re-morgaging for you (I am assuming he has one.)
(Your Dad could say he wanted to do some home improvements. Extension etc.) You can, in turn pay your Dad back. And the rates will be lower.
3. Go back to the back and explain in more detail that you need their help not there crazy 8.7% rates. Funny how banks are so helpful when you have a good paid job. Then you tell them what you want to do and they become unhelpful.
I am sure others will have better ideas. Just some options from me.:D
Happy days

[potkettleblack]

Couple of ideas spring to mind:-

- get your folks to act as guarantor on your loan, this should bring the rate right down. Its probably why Natwest offered you such a high rate in the first place as ideally they wanted more security

- have your folks take out a loan on the premise that they will potentially have a better credit standing than you and you make the repayments to them

- your folks could get a further advance on their mortgage which is usually a low interest rate and typically the same as their existing interest rate

There are of course the obvious implications of you being able to repay and whether you (and them) are prepared to take on the risk of your parents losing their home should you default. Lots for you and them to think about.

[mungo_55]

Hi,

I apologise in advance for bringing up the age old subject of loans. I was wondering if anyone else has been in the same situation as me, and if so, how they got around the loans issue.

I'm looking to borrow £23,000 to pay for my CPL, ME and IR. I'm only doing some part-time work at the moment, because I've been studying to finish off my ATPLs (last set of exams coming up next week!).

The problem I've got is that it doesn't seem that anyone will loan me the money without having a good income. From my side, I want to stay in training full time (which will hopefully only take another 5 months), because the flying jobs market seems to be better than it has been for a while. It seems to be a good idea to keep pushing ahead with the training because of this.

If I went back to my old job I'm fairly certain I could get the loan quite quickly, but I'd lose the momentum I'd built up with my training.

Anybody else had this problem and managed to find a solution ?

thanks

Mungo

[Re-Heat]

From the bank's perspective, unless you have collateral or an income then you have to go back to the job - though momentum is lost, the problem from their perspective is that they won't be able to differentiate you from the many others with fATPL and modular training by the time you qualify, and require some sort of assurance that you will repay.

Obviously this creates a problem from your perspective, however just go back to a job and work as hard as you can to achieve the goal.

I don't think there is any other choice as banks will all assess their credit risk in the same manner - based upon the market and historic defaults.

[mungo_55]

Thanks for the post Re-Heat. Just had a meeting with my bank manager today and was pleasantly surprised by her support. I now need to write it all down, so I can quote it back to her, when it actually comes to applying for the loan in 4 months !

[AerocatS2A]

Go back to the job, get the loan, then leave the job again and get back into your training. Provided, of course, you can meet the loan repayments without the fulltime job!

[zcar]

I owe £30,000 to HSBC on a Professional Studies Loan. Unsecured, payments started 6 months after completion of training to allow time to find a job. Proof required at the time was documentation from FTO about the course and the cost, plus my license and log book. I didn't own a house and had no security to offer. A credit search came back good, then the loan was in place after 2 weeks or so. Is this no longer available, it was 20 months ago when I got it?

[rmcfarlane]

Just looking for others experiences and thoughts on my own situation.....

Essentially, I am meant to be starting flight training at the end of June and I am currently trying to nail down my loan (all €100k of it).

Having spoken with all the usual banks (BBVA, HSBC, Ulster Bank) it would seem that they are all geared towards UK based applicants, and that an Irish based property makes it a little tricky. In fact, currently all signs point towards a remortgage being the only option - but of course this would lead to immediate repayments.

No specific question here, but if anyone else on here is self-funding and a fellow Irish man I would appreciate finding out how you did it.

Thanks!

[Groundloop]

From your "soon to be Jerez" location I assume you are going to FTE.

Don't they have a link with a local Spanish bank? I know one prospective FTE student who was offered a loan that way.

[rmcfarlane]

From your "soon to be Jerez" location I assume you are going to FTE.
Don't they have a link with a local Spanish bank? I know one prospective FTE student who was offered a loan that way.


Spot on. The school have a deal with BBVA, a spanish bank with a UK arm. The problem is they wont accept non-UK based property as security on the loan... remortgaging is an option, just undesirable.

[Groundloop]

Soory about that.

Seems a bit weird though as FTE used to do quite a few seminars in Dublin!

[sicky]

From your "soon to be Jerez" location I assume you are going to FTE.

Don't they have a link with a local Spanish bank? I know one prospective FTE student who was offered a loan that way.

When you say he was offered it, did he not need it, or do you know of a better way to fund it?

[Groundloop]

Decided repayments were too high and delayed training anywhere!

[sicky]

are we talking approx. £800/month or so? :sad:

[rmcfarlane]

hmm... seemingly if you take the 18month payment 'holiday' it works out about £900.... eeek

[sicky]

over how long? :eek:

[Antonio Montana]

£68k (Roughly €100k) over 8 Years at 4% flat is £935pcm

[sicky]

thanks Antonio - that's a HUGE amount :ooh:

[mrgaviates]

Hope to jump in to the fire pit of modular training soon. Does anyone have any ideas on a tax efficient method of paying. I've forked out the 40% and would like to get some back! I will be undergoing professional improvement/study but it doesn't seem to be deductable. Any thoughts.
MRG

[Akuji]

Hi All!

I have been offered a place at CABAIR. However I am, after a unsecured loan rather than a secured loan of £25,000. CABAIR can offer me a secured loan with HSBC but not an unsecured one.

ANYONE KNOW OF PLACES OFFERING UNSECURED LOANS??

[Superpilot]

Try asking for £24k! I believe 25k and over has to be secured. HSBC have offered me an unsecured 24k loan should I train with Oxford, this is with deferred repayments (up to 1 year after completion).

[asuweb]

Nearly all high street banks offer unsecured loans for amounts under £25k subject to credit rating etc..

Most of these, however will incur repayments whilst training. It would probably be best to put together a small business plan and present it to your bank and see what they say. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Best of luck with your training.

[thirtysomething]

Hope to jump in to the fire pit of modular training soon. Does anyone have any ideas on a tax efficient method of paying. I've forked out the 40% and would like to get some back! I will be undergoing professional improvement/study but it doesn't seem to be deductable. Any thoughts.
MRG

open your own company , get a vat number and claim the vat back..

[Akuji]

HI All!! I was wondering if any companies offer unsecured loans??
Thank You

[davepearsall]

Think HSBC do a £25,000 loan for study at OAT unsecured

[A320rider]

to all of you thinking to borrow money...

don't!
stay away from these banks and keep your freedom from these sharks.All they want is make money from you or take your house.

you wont find a job with 200h, and you will find urself in debt.
then you will come back with your lousy paid job...or you will have to boorow more money for a type rating, and you will never see the end.:ugh:

You have been warned!

[asuweb]

you wont find a job with 200h, and you will find urself in debt.

That's a very bold statement. Stating that you won't find a job with 200 hours is misleading and incorrect. Many people are successful in finding employment with 200 hours.

And, yes, I think we are all intelligent enough to realise that if we choose to borrow money we will be in debt.

[GusHoneybun]

you may not like (as most people do not either) what A320whatever is saying, but he has a very valid point. chances are you will not get a job in a nice shiny jet with 200 hours as it is the exception rather than the norm. I didn't and I don't know anybody who has. speaking from experience of myself and peers, we have worked our way up from 200 hours via instructing to get our first sniff on the turbo props.
and yet, with all this in mind, you still feel that you can justify getting loaned up to the hilt, and have repayments of £5,6,700 a month. how on earth do you expect to pay them off? you won't as an instructor and you won't as a TP FO. if you basis of your whole plan is to pay your debt's by getting a jet job, then you are in for a very big suprise once the ink dries on your shiny new blue book.

you are going to be a pilot and a pilot need to make sound decisions. getting yourself into that much debt without any idea how to pay it off does not sound like a very good decision.

[Tonic Please]

I would like to add that I have taken many people's advice on these forums, and concluded exactly as GHB has just said.

I am 21. PPL, 110 hours. Canadian License. ENGLISH nationality. I have a great interest in French. Therefore, I am obsessive about mastering it (not far off, but always something new to learn...I mean complete native fluency). I wish to become an interpreter. I must immerse (doing), study incredibly every day (doing 6-10 hours a day), and work (doing). I teach jazz piano so I earn £20-£25 an hour from my number of students, so thats not bad and I suppose I am lucky to be able to earn that money for an hour, for my age..but once I am comfortable enough to approach the Specialised Universities for Interpration and Translation, I must do a 1-2 year masters degree in Interpretation. I need to go armed with my two languages mastered (EN <> FR). (working on!)

Once I am qualified, the work is endless. I am in touch with current professionals in the field, in Canada (my place of interest as some might know) and the money will be of more than first time Flying Instructors and can be plus £40K. So, I am going to enjoy my early twentys with freedom, intense studying (they do go together when the subject is languages and you need to do and go lots of places!) and then work like a maniac on this Interpretation Course and be out, I reckon when I'm 24 turning 25. I'm 21.5 now. Then, I will be able to afford, give or take, whatever flying I want. I will be self employed, that's how most interpreters/translators go, so I'll enjoy freedom somewhat too rather than 9-5 same place same people.

I hope this will lead to me be able to achieve my CPL Multi IFR etc, and perhaps 30, I might change careers, or whatever. Who knows. I don't want to use Interpretation as a "stepping stone" as it's an ultimate career for language enthusiasts...but, one thing at a time.

So, in conlusion, I'd like to add that I am putting flying on the back-burner, taking my time, and am going to enjoy my 20's not being in debt and being able to pay for any flying I wish with my career job as Interpreter. A masters degree in this profession, with this language, would be of interest ti Air Canada anyway ;) I hope my little story is of use, somehow, to anybody!

Dan

[sicky]

I know a lot of people get lucky and get a job during/soon after training. I really like the sound of Jerez, but even though it's pretty much all inc. i'm just worried about getting the loan.

What are people doing about it, with regards to paying it back after training, if you don't secure a flying job.

How do you plan to manage? Do you have another job lined up, or something you can fall back on? Or is it a case of the parents can always help you out, because i certainly don't have that luxury :{

I havn't seen a thread on this yet, and am really interested on what people plan to do about paying the loan back, with no job secured.

thanks

(this includes secured loans :) )

[tudeski2004]

Stapleford now have an agreement with Barclays to fund their training under the PSL packeage. Not sure if it would include their 737 type rating course too. Worth speaking to Barclays!!

[sam82]

Hi Guyz,

Any loans or schemes to fund international students for Professional flight training. I was born in Asia and came to UK for higher studies. I have completed Aeromechanical systems Engineering from Cranfield University(RMCS) and then went onto do M.Sc in Airport Planning & Mgmt from Loughborough Uni on a Royal Aeronautical society scholarship. Having completed all this qualification, I am still waiting to have my chance for a long cherished career of being a pilot. I have recently started working for airport consultancy as an engineer for regional airports.

Got my JAA Class 1 medical certificate sorted three days ago and have made an application to GAPAN for ATPL. Are there any similar schemes like GAPAN for becoming a pilot. I don't have previlege like you guyz from UK to seek loans from HSBC or family support. All the monies I had, was spent on my first degree and second degree and am already in debt of £9000 to british bank.

If any one have any information of similar pilot training schemes, then do let me know.

Good luck all for GAPAN ATPL

Sam

[Hamil000]

hi guys, iam 18 and have no flying experince, iam having a problem about loans, i own nothing and my parents get benifits, how do i get funded for my pilot training if i cant get into sponserships

any advice

[Mercenary Pilot]

Only way to fly without money IS sponsership.

Try the CTC cadet programme

http://www.ctcaviation.com/wings/0402.html

•On the date of application you must be at least 18 years old and not yet 30 years old

•You must be able to prove your unrestricted legal right to live and work in the EU

•You must have passed a minimum of 5 GCSEs at grade C or above, to include Maths, English and a Science

•You must have 2 A Levels at grade C or above - or an Honours Degree, minimum level 2:2. (Equivalent qualifications will be considered)

•You must be fluent in written and spoken English

Or I guess you could try the military...Or rob a bank:oh:

[Pilot Pete]

how do i get funded for my pilot training if i cant get into sponserships You don't. Just like the vast majority of UK commercial pilots you will have to self fund if you can't get a sponsorship. No disrespect, but sponsorships are very rare these days and the competition intense, so don't bank on getting one but by all means try, just realize what you are up against.

PP

[sam82]

Funding Options
Hi Guyz,

Any loans or schemes to fund international students for Professional flight training. I was born in Asia and came to UK for higher studies. I have completed Aeromechanical systems Engineering from Cranfield University(RMCS) and then went onto do M.Sc in Airport Planning & Mgmt from Loughborough Uni on a Royal Aeronautical society scholarship. Having completed all this qualification, I am still waiting to have my chance for a long cherished career of being a pilot. I have recently started working for airport consultancy as an engineer for regional airports.

sorted my JAA Class 1 medical certificate three days ago and have made an application to GAPAN for ATPL. Are there any similar schemes like GAPAN for becoming a pilot. I don't have previlege like you guyz from UK to seek loans from HSBC or family support. All the monies I had, was spent on my first degree and second degree and am already in debt of £9000 to british bank.

If any one have any information of similar pilot training schemes, then do let me know.

Good luck all for GAPAN ATPL

Sam

[Hurry]

Hi everyone,
I've just got offered a place to start an Integrated course with Cabair and I'm now trying to convince HSBC that funding my training is a good idea.
They asked me for a business plan ( :ugh: ####!!!!) Business plans are definetly not my strength so I'd like to ask anyone who as been through the same process for some advice on what kind of structure should the plan have.
Any websites with decent templates?....
Thanks a bunch!!!:ok:

[gconatyuk]

Unfortunately im not going to provide the detailed reply you are looking for, mainly due to the fact that i don't have a clue about submitting this type of business plan. However, what i do know is that this has been discussed in great length throguhout the years on PPRUNE. If you do a search of the forum you should find some very useful information.

[craigy06]

I have nearly finished my PPL and am now looking for financial aids towards my CPL and IR. Are there any banks or building societies out there that offer this sort of loan to pilots or have they all stopped this?????:bored::bored:

[jetlagslag]

I know HSBC (at least the branch in Oxford) offer a professional studies loan for pilot training. Not sure if this is for integrated only though, and if they stipulate what FTOs are accepted. Worth a look though.

Hope this helps.

[craigy06]

chhers i'll try that. thanks for the help

[speedbird001]

Hi All,
I'm currently studying for my ATPL via Disatnce learning, like most i've got a mortgage to pay ( Past Two Years ) and can't give up work to study full time.
Other than Banks what other type(s) of finacial help is there available for would be ATPLs, Ie some sort of UNI loans etc, i just can't believe that it's only the Bank Manager who can help us.
Thanks :ok:
SB001

[tired-flyboy]

You can get a 'career developement loan' for certain high street banks.

These are loans designed and tailored towards careers which have a high initial outlay but the banks know that they should be able to get a return on.

I believe that you have to be in a recognised course/place of study but you would need to check this.

[speedbird001]

Hi Tired-Flyboy,
Yes i've heard of those, but i've spoken to other Pilots and they've said don't bother with them as the interest is far to high and you can only get up to 5-7K ?
I'm in a job that doesn't pay very well but what pay i do get is helping but at this rate i'll be 90 by the time i pass everything :eek:
Like most i've funded my PPL and Class 1 plus paying for my GS and exam fees but for the Flying part i'll need help :confused:
SB001

[wiseman942]

Hey guys i know stapleford have secured a deal with barclays for a psl, however barclays dont mention it on their website. ight be worth ringing SFC to find out more.

[SU27]

Just finished the groundschool exams.

I now need to fund a CPL/IR.

Which banks provide a loan whereby you can start paying back at a later date. This is important as I won't be able to work whilst training.

What advice would other 'modular' students give at this stage?

Any info appreciated.

Career development loans?????

[scruggs]

I think HSBC offer some kind of career development loan.

[Allioth]

Hi guys,
first of all, I'd like to thank you for all the times I sent something and lots of you answered quickly and clearly to help me... Really thank you.
So, here's another impossible question that maybe has some possible answers:

I'll start my course in Stapleford in a week... Integrated ab-initio to fATPL. It'll thake around 18 - 20 months according to what they say...

The question is this: for this course I'm using ALL the money I have (around £ 35000)... After this course, I'll have to do a TR in something in order to get a job (Ryanair, Easyjet, whatever!)
Do you think there will be any chance to get a loan for the TR if the company accepts you after the interview?
I mean: I do the interview, they say
- "yes, now you have to do the TR. When you'll finish it, come back and you'll get the job"
Do you think that a bank can loan me something like 15-20k to do the TR with such an answer from the airline? Does this kind of answer assures you a loan? Are there companies that give you the contract BEFORE doing the TR?

I know these are more than one question... If you can, please give me some advice, because I'm terrified with the idea of finishing the course and then being unable to start working because of the TR!!!!

Thanks again for any help you can give me.

Allioth

[potkettleblack]

Can't help with the Ryanair bit but are you sure your sums are right? £35k to get you through an integrated course seems light to me, unless you mean that is your spending money after having paid Stapleford. Suggest you have a read of the following thread which will give you a heads up of the range of costs involved in going down the modular route. You should be able to pick from it and compare what is/isn't included in your integrated course cost.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=236977

[planeshipcar]

Hi,

I'm in the same position as you and I am looking to do the same as you a go for a Ryan or GECAT at the end of my course however I will not be going through Stapleford.

From what I understand if you go with say GECAT for Easyjet, then HSBC is prepared to help out with a top up loan which will pay for the full amount. Now the question I'm not so confident on is whether you'll have to have some security for this ie parents backing you. But the type rating is the most likely place the banks will be at the nicest as at this point they've got more of a guarantee ofyou having a job at the end. In saying that you'll have to have a job offer. You'd find it very difficult if you were trying this with the Astraeus course which has no job offer at the end.

hope this helps,

[Mercenary Pilot]

2 Points

1/ Stapleford are NOT integrated course providers

2/ You do NOT need to have a Type Rating to get a job

:ok:

[planeshipcar]

well done guys for pointing out Stapleford is not intergrated - you must be so proud you noticed his fo pa. It only takes one person to point out and no more replys. Its rather prep schol and smug.

also, you have completely missed the point. the important question in this is being able to aford get a loan for a type rating. Not any of the crap points you've just stated.

Secondly, if you want to be a 737 pilot on graduation, you do have to consider paying for a type rating. A lot of poor people from Oxford will tell you the same. Yes they are employed afterwards, but thats through scheme like GECAT! You have your options opens,

[PPL152]

Hi guys

can any1 tell me if it's a must to secure the loan with the house? my parents wouldn't do that...

Tks
PPL152

[planeshipcar]

just like to appoligise for my last reply. I had a really bad day - don't take to heart.

Unfortunately, Stapleford are no longer under the Barclays proffessional studies loan scheme so you can't get an unsecured loan for your flight training. You could have used this after your fATPL. So you'll need to have a secured loan. However, by the time you get into your course there is a likely hood stapleford will have regained a loan provider so you may be able get 25k unsecured, but anything else over will need to be secured.

If you were jammy enough to get the Barclays loan before it finished, you'll have to get a secured loan as it will be over £25k.

hope this helps

[AeroEng]

All of the major training schools have some kind of arrangement with a high street bank that allows you to borrow up to the full amount required at a competitive interest rate to pay for your training.

What i was wondering is would student loans affect the amount you are allowed to borrow. Does anyone have any experience or has anyone been in this situation.

Any information would be most appreciated.

Chris

[asuweb]

It will rather depend on personal cirumstances and how much your student loan is. I didn't have any problems, declared it on the Business Plan and it didn't even get mentioned in interview.

[Oxeagle]

Hi Guys,
Sorry to break into the thread like this but I believe that this is the most relevant place to ask my question! If you enrol in an intergrated course overseas, specifically the EPST First Officer course in the Netherlands, can you obtain a loan from that country?

The reason I ask is that I was talking to a couple of EPST students who train at OAT, and they mentioned that banks in the Netherlands offer unsecured loans for the full amount of the course :eek: Also, they mentioned that EPST do accept foreign students, as they said that there were some English guys that underwent selection with them. What they didn't know was if me, being a UK citizen, would be able to get a bank loan from a Dutch bank.

Anyone know if this is possible?

Cheers :ok:

[planeshipcar]

I've spoken to both flight training europe in spain and a few schools in ireland and they didn't think they'd be a problem. Both very willing to help me with my business plan.

[MONEY GROWS ON TREES]

Hi guys,

This is to anyone and everyone, any ideas on a Financial structure so I am able to afford the huge amount needed for the Frozen ATPL,

THANKS PEOPLE :*

HELOFAN and everyone else!

I have just completed Fixed PPL, wanting to go Professional now, how did every body else out there pay for there training,

thanks

Hello

The cost of Training from ab-intio to ATPL is respectbly high, I would like to know the differant ways in which Pilots have managed to privately pay for there high level training.......

I am at that stage....... and ideas would be great

thanks

:ok:

Yes bank loans are good in a weird way lol, a slight problem with that though your under massive pressure to pay keep up the repayments

[go_solo]

Hi,

I know that HSBC previously offered career development loans for integrated courses and the branch in oxford has close links to OATs, however their website no longer lists pilot training as a suitable course. I wonder if anyone has recently applied for financial support and been successful.

Questions:

1. I plan to complete my modular fATPL and wonder if they will consider modular training - I have the minimum hours etc
2. What are the current terms of the loan, i.e. payable over 7 years with no payments until after the end of the course??
3. If you were successful, how detailed was your business plan?

Any info would be great.

Thanks :ok:

[Boing7117]

go_solo - I'm pretty sure that HSBC have never listed Pilot Training as a suitable course for a Professional Studies Loan.
The arrangement between OAT and HSBC, Oxford is very much a bespoke package which links closely to the T's & C's of a PSL.
The difference is the interest rate is pretty favourable and you don't have to begin making repayments until 6 months after completion of the OAT course.
In answer to your questions

I plan to complete my modular fATPL and wonder if they will consider modular training - I have the minimum hours etc

As far as I know the loan arrangement between HSBC and yourselves is based upon successful acceptance onto one of the integrated courses with OAT - I could be wrong but I think the modular course is exempt from this arrangement.

What are the current terms of the loan, i.e. payable over 7 years with no payments until after the end of the course??

The current terms (or the one's they set) bases your first repayment at month 21 (6 months after completion of the OAT course) and this term spans a maximum of 11 years.

If you were successful, how detailed was your business plan?

The template provided by OAT is a pretty decent plan that outlines everything a bank manager needs to know.
I also thought it was useful to take my parents along to the interview (since they ultimately secured my loan against our house)
I also prepared a thorough living cost projection which included my current savings, expenses including accommodation, food, bills, petrol for the car, life insurance, contingencies etc etc
I was also successful in getting the loan required.

[jimbols6]

i recently applied for the PSL with HSBC for the modular training route and they gave me the knock back i rang round all the banks that offer a PSL and none of them will support pilot training. I am really stuck and i dnt no what to do. None of the banks are intrested so i dnt how future pilots are going to fund there training. Any comments or advise is welcome!

[rogueflyer01]

go_solo - I'm pretty sure that HSBC have never listed Pilot Training as a suitable course for a Professional Studies Loan.


They did 4 years ago when i was looking into financing routes..

[Lucifer]

i recently applied for the PSL with HSBC for the modular training route and they gave me the knock back i rang round all the banks that offer a PSL and none of them will support pilot training. I am really stuck and i dnt no what to do. None of the banks are intrested so i dnt how future pilots are going to fund there training. Any comments or advise is welcome!
Due to the high default rates, it is now very hard to obtain funding unless you have been "selected" at an integrated school - and only from the partner banks such as HSBC and BBVA (Jerez).

[mungo_55]

Hi,

Just thought I'd put down a few thoughts on my own experience in this tricky area in case it helps anyone.

I left a full time job just as HSBC withdrew the professional studies loan for pilots which wasn't the best timing.

I've needed to borrow £38000 since leaving work to fund my training from being a PPL with 140 hours to getting to the end of the MCC. I've borrowed 17000 from my parents which I have been very lucky to be able to do. But the other 21000 has come from my bank (Lloyds - 19000) and credit cards.

I guess the lessons I've learnt are -

It's worth contacting your own bank. I've been with Lloyds for a few years, but I'm new down in Christchurch so didn't know the local branch. However I got in contact with a manager there 8 months before needing the money and gave them a breakdown of what the money was for and a summary of my training schedule (it fitted on a side of A4 so wasn't too onerous). After keeping in touch with them since then and keeping them updated with my situation etc. they have now loaned me the 19000 I needed. It hasn't always been smooth, but I have been pleasantly surprised at their helpfulness. Also, although I have a flat (and mortgage!) they didn't require me to secure the loan.

Don't settle for an offered interest rate if it sounds over the top. Point out the other loan rates that are out there. Lloyds wanted to put me on 7.9% which worried me enough that I said I was reconsidering. They then price matched it with someone else's rate (Halifax I think) and I ended up with 5.9%.

I understand what Scroggs is saying about Credit Cards, but they can be useful. I've got £1000 cheap credit on a Sainsbury's card which is 0% for a year on purchases, which can't be bad in my book ! You do need to bear in mind the minimum payments you need to make each month.

I can't overemphasise enough the need to take into account living costs. Even with a part time job I've been going through c. £800 a month whilst I've been doing my ground studies and flying training. It makes up a big proportion of your costs if you have to spend 1 to 2 years out of full time work whilst you're training.

Good luck to all who are trying to get that elusive loan into their account !

Mungo

[Dried ears]

Mungo

Good point about 0% credit cards. There is more advice on this website in that regard:

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/creditcards

[jimbols6]

Thanx everyone all very useful information i do currently have an account with Lloyds so i will speak to them and see what they say. Just without HSBC its seems impossible not to run up a lot of unnecessary debt through paying off different loans just to get the base finances needed. I just dnt know how people are expected to enter pilot training in the future, it just seems a really shame as now is defiantly one of the best times to start training as the industry is starting to expand. I wish some of the big airlines and the Government would do something about it.
Thanks for all your comments so far any more views or advise is welcome.

[wbryce]

Hello Matt,

I will give you a run down on what I have done so far as I was in the exact same position as you.

I had my first flight in feb 2004 and completed my PPL in Oct 2004 and since then I have done my hour building (not completed yet), flew to france solo from scotland and done 6 hrs IMC training. I done all this by working and using my monthly wages to fund this part. For the past 8 months I've been saving up my wages and I have plans to take an 8k career developement loan and go complete my training (ground school theory, CPL and IR)...one of the places that I'm favouring at the minute is Egnatia Aviation, their pricing meets my budgets aswell as other factors.

I could easily go and get an unsecured loan of around 20-25k to complete my training tomorrow but I dont fancy the repayment schedules when I would be struggling to compete in a very competative market for my first job!

My aim is to try and complete my training with the least amount of debt possible as I may need the banks for TR bonding etc...(not that I would like to but thats the way the market currently is unfortunately).

[potkettleblack]

Matt what about getting a career under your belt first and worrying about the flying when you have gotten some cash together. You could break it up if you wanted and do say your PPL and some hour building. Study the ATPL's via distance learning whilst working. All the time you will hopefully be saving towards the CPL and IR which you will probably find easier if attempted fulltime to ensure continuity of training.

My advice is don't take on debt as so many others have done. All it will do is give you sleepless nights and put you under further pressure to pass everything first time in the minimum of time. It will also push you to find the cheapest training providers who will undoubtedly not give you the best instruction.

There will inevitably be down time when you are fully qualified and looking for work and what better to fill your days (and your cv) than a decent job that puts food on the table and hopefully generates enough cash to keep your hours ticking over and your currency up to date so that when you get a sim ride you haven't completely forgotten all those things drilled into you during your training.

[Captain Spam Can]

I second that vbmenu_register("postmenu_2892449", true); Potkettleblack, career first and by the sounds of it your doing it modular so you could definatly complete it by working full time up to your CPL even I.R (just take leave for your I.R) and still complete it in a modest time frame <1.5years. That way you will have less debt and in the "likely" event you dont gain employment straight away after finishing you will have a job to fall back on that can pay the bills and loans:ouch:

[wbryce]

Hello Matt,

I would assume the total cost be in the region of 30k-40k (with living costs, exams and extra training costs)...the buck doesn't stop once your trainings completed...flying instructors rating (6k), self funded type rating (20k)/company bonding etc will increase your debt further...I've been self funding for 2 years and i'm much happier knowing I wont be stressed with debt come training completion. Each to their own! :) let us know which way you decide.

[mcgoo]

what about if you then have to do F.I course, Type Rating etc, big debt soon mounts up and interest are going up apparently

[Another Biggles]

wbryce - I've seen your posts for some time now, and am impressed with your progress, commitment to train during a job, etc, but I've always wondered what your job was? Hope you don't mind me asking?

Cheers,

AB

[wbryce]

Another Biggles,

Glad to see someone takes an interest in my posts! I work full time as an account manager for a medium sized webhosting company...I started as a peon at 16 year old, worked my way through a few positions and now into a good stable position.

My wage package is around 20k pa but for a large part of my training I was on 15k pa....I get commission on sales too which can make some months better! Even on the lowest incomes, if you have understanding parents that don't insist on charging dig money then its not impossible! hope that helps! :-)

[WindSheer]

This has probably been answered many times before.

I am 27, single, no ties with around £10,000 in the bank.
Does anyone know of any prob's I may have obtaining funding for an integrated course. I am hoping to attend Jerez, who offer 'full funding' assistance via a bank in London.

Any help will be appreciated guys, as I cant seem to lay my hands on the required facts!!

:)

[Eddie_Crane]

Try here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=215158) for info on FTE Jerez.

[ozzieb88]

weve just sold up our house and moved down south renting currently with no future plans to buy up the very moment some long term deal ma folks got. so am i pretty much screwed for finance coz i wntd to go FTE but the loan has to be secured

any info regarding finance would be great thanx

oz

[dartagnan]

if you don't have money, house, or generous parents, you can make a cross for your pilot training.Unless join the RAF or BA.

banks know how difficult and risky it is to find a job, and they won't help you unless you have money to give them.

the best way would be to build time and experience when you have the money. no need to rush up, as you won't be on jet before your 30-40 years.

[james707]

Try this link

webplus.flight-training-grants.firm.org.uk

[Sean H]

Hi to all!
This is my story! Advice from yee guys would be great!!!

Im 18,have a JAA PPL{A}.
Im hopeing to go to HAI in Florida(www.heli.com) next year to do my JAA/FAA ATPL{H}.
The course will cost me about $70,000 US dollars!(whats that in sterling?),plus I will need 18 months spending money,accom,etc.
I am not rich nor is my family,but Im a lonely child and my parents own the deeds to our family home!!!
For this reason, should I be able to get my money through a bank for my training if My parents sign the deeds of the house to the bank??

Thanks for the replys,
Sean.:ok:

[mcgoo]

Sean, your parents would be taking one hell of a risk, $70,000 is about £37,000, a secured loan for that amount would be about £500 per month with repayments starting straight away, that monthly figure is for the loan taken over 10 years and you would be repaying about £55,000, if your away training for 18 months then your parents would have to cover those repayments for the whole time you are away and until such time as you gain employment.

[Re-Heat]

Sean,

Learn financial planning 101, and think about what you are doing before undetaking any course. You have no plan at all as far as I can see, and do not understand the consequences of what you are doing.:suspect:

[Sean H]

Advice taken on baord guys,
Thanks:ok:

[scroggs]

And, while you're learning about 'how not to finance your flying training', try researching helicopter pilot salaries. You might well come to the conclusion that the return on your parents' (not your) investment is not worth the outlay.

Scroggs

[Mohit_C]

Ok, so to summarize which would be the best bank to borrow around €60'000 for funding my flight training in Spain?

[ATPLTrainee]

If you have someone willing to act as a guarantor, i.e. secure the loan against they´re property, might i suggest you speak to some banks with regards to mortgages. They´re are quite a few banks, HSBC, Barclays etc etc who do offer "proffessional studies" loans but these tend to be mortgages with a few special tweeks and a truck load of interest. I almost got into a HSBC contract but after a few sums realised i could get a mortgage with scottish widows, have the same value of monthly repayments but be paid off 3 years earlier so less total costs. If you are serious about finding finance then do shop around, seriously! If need be speak to a financial advisor, when we´re talking about these sums of money its often worth paying a few hundred quid to save you a few thousand in the long term.

[sicky]

hey guys/guyesses i was wondering if any of you can help me

My dad was going to act as guarantor for my loan but has pulled out, you can understand why but he's left me in trouble for sorting funding now, so i'm looking into a few options...

Do you know if it is possible to "break up" the cost into smaller chunks. for example...get a career development loan, and a professional studies loan, and then my dad could secure the other half (he is willing to go half way but not the whole way...i know, i know:rolleyes:). i just don't know if that would be viable or possible.

I've sent away a few letters to local businesses to see if any of them are in the christmas spirit.

Pro Studies Loans - they don't list pilot training and say something like you have to be studying in the uk. If those two options are exhaustive then my idea is out anyway.

Just read that post on the mortgage - the thing with that is that there's no repayment holiday is there??

Thanks for any help

[mcgoo]

The only proffessional studies loan was HSBC and they have withdrawn this now unless you are going to OAT, Cabair or CTC.

[potkettleblack]

Sicky welcome to the world of modular training:)

Why don't you study the ATPL's via distance learning whilst working and saving hard for the multi/CPL and IR. Along the way you will hopefully work out that you have just saved yourself a small fortune and that your dad has actually done you a favour in not going as guarantor. When you get to the CPL/IR you will probably find that you want to do this fulltime to give it the best shot of a first time pass. If you don't have the cash for this then perhaps between you and your dad you can come to an arrangement as hopefully there will be more of a light at the end of the tunnel.

The added benefit is that you will have a nice story to tell at your job interviews of how you triumphed over adversity.

[sicky]

I do see your point of view there and it does look like it may become my only option. I havn't given up hope that some businesses out there may be in the christmas spirit and i can only but ask.

Without sparking the perrenial debate, i do have a few issues with modular. I have a friend who is a pilot for a bizjet sort of firm, and he agrees that now is the right time, i'm at the right age, and that Jerez is an excellent school. (He knows a few of the teachers and flies into there a lot).

I fell in love with jerez while i was there, but if it is not possible, then unfortunately it is not possible. My reservations about modular are, that i do not have a degree (don't go into that debate either please!! haha), i left university to do this, i have 3 a levels but all C grades, i have no sort of..supervisory experience apart from when i have captained teams and the very little football coaching that i do.

I just have a great worry that modular would leave me jobless. I like the idea of going full time integrated, concentrating only on the flying and where you're character is monitored aswell - ie the airlines may trust it more. Again, let's not go too much into that.

I will need to sort myself out with a good enough job to manage it, but i still do not have my PPL, and the nearest school to where i live that do FATPL is in Leeds.

On the up side, i have a few good friends who have been nothing less than amazing in offering advice and support and they're looking out all the time for a job that could help me out. One of those friends told me i could get in over £1200/month working in the Orange call centre, not down the right lines really but the money would allow me to do my PPl up here while i work there.

Other positives i suppose are that having gone to uni in Leeds, i know people there, and a friend of mine has a house there towards the airport, with a spare room. Ideal if it comes to this.

I'm sure there are more negatives and positives and if people don't mind i'll add them as they come to me - i've rambled on and it's getting late (just got in from my bar job).

I'd just like to add my view that it is a joke that the pro studies loans will not cover flying training. With the cost of the training, and the lack of real sponsorship...pilots are being driven towards modular, like in my case. I am struggling to find a good reason why being from a broken family with 1 retired parent and another redundant parent breaking into property development should prevent me following my dream career.

Just to finish - I've always liked the idea of the RAF or Army and have thought if there is no way i can do this, then i'd join probably the RAF, try as a pilot. I know they have flying clubs where you can learn to fly, too, so if i did have to lay it to rest for a bit, i suppose it's another option. Then again i'd have to be fully committed to join the forces.

Frustrating! Thanks for the responses so far!

[Pilot Pete]

Without sparking the perrenial debate, i do have a few issues with modular..... My reservations about modular are, that i do not have a degree (don't go into that debate either please!! haha), i left university to do this, i have 3 a levels but all C grades, i have no sort of..supervisory experience apart from when i have captained teams and the very little football coaching that i do....I just have a great worry that modular would leave me jobless.

So, in order;

1. You don't need a degree to be an airline pilot.
2. You have three more A levels than me, and I am a Thomsonfly Captain.;)
3. You have no supervisory skills? Well, do something about that now by joining some sort of organisation where you will get it. By the time you qualify you will have a few years supervisory experience under your belt!
4. Integrated can leave you just as jobless......

There you go, concerns addressed with a bit of reality. Make sure you decide which route to choose based on what will suit you best, not on hearsay and rumour, or unfounded concerns.

All the best and good luck.

PP

[Crispywings]

I had exactly the same trouble with HSBC.
Last year I was told they had stopped the professional studies loan for pilot training, but would grant it to students studying through Oxford Aviation. I heard a rumour this was due to people borrowing large amounts of unsecured cash to do an ATPL and then not finishing the course or not finding a job at the end of the course and not being able to repay the loan.

I was studying at BCFT in Bournemouth and was denied such a loan form HSBC.

I continued with my training, got my blue book, an MCC certificate, a letter from an airline saying I had passed the selection assessment / sim ride and would have a job on completion of the type rating that I needed to fund.

Even offering to put my house up as collateral for the loan and with a job offer, I was still declined. Unfortunately HSBC provided no help whatsoever for me.

Obviously, there are other lenders out there; it was just that HSBC had a lower rate of lending at the time.

[irish_cessna]

my problem relating to FINANCING is that i cant get credit due to a poor financial choice/investment 2 yrs ago and wont be rectified till i'm 30 :rolleyes: (i'm 25 almost now) so as i bumble along living off my self employed wages, thankfully quite adaquate (1000 euro wk on good wk/500 on bad wk, cash) I live too far to commute to nearest air club for a lesson, esp with our irish weather, it prob end up cancelled. I'd like to know does any one have any similar situation or even advice regarding the total costs :O i want to go from PPL to F-ATPL , ME, IR, CPL, MCC in the next 3 yrs or so, and will have to try work something out as i work too. i have no way to get other financial backing at this time as my parents go through a messy divorce. whats my cheapest options :D i was thinking/planning to combine a holiday and the PPL in Malaga, Spain soon. I'm used to dealing in euros so forgive me if i presume you mean the same too

[ghost_rider20]

Before anyone states 'Do a search' i tried, but didnt come up with what i was looking for.
So i will pop the question, where can i get a loan for a substantial amount, to really get the ball rolling with my training??

Any info would be appreciated guys/girls:ok:

Ghost Rider.

[wbryce]

arrange a meeting with your bank and discuss figures....remember, when you take a loan payments start immediately so you need to borrow more than you require to cover the first 10-16 repayments....

The CDL is a great deferred loan but you can only get 8k max.

[scroggs]

Before anyone states 'Do a search' i tried, but didnt come up with what i was looking for.

To save you wasting your valuable time searching for this thread (which is linked to in the Archive thread at the top of the forum), I have wasted my valuable time doing it for you.

Scroggs

[Lucifer]

my problem relating to FINANCING is that i cant get credit due to a poor financial choice/investment 2 yrs ago and wont be rectified till i'm 30
Not the only bad choice you've made along with the criminal conviction you mention on the other thread...

Have you tried doing the GAPAN tests first to ensure you are suitable and not wasting your cash?

You have absolutely no hope of obtaining credit with a poor credit rating for the purpose that you are looking for. Fund it instead from your earnings and go modular if you are that desparate to fly.

[sicky]

The only proffessional studies loan was HSBC and they have withdrawn this now unless you are going to OAT, Cabair or CTC.

i take it that it's also integrated only and wouldn't cover, for example, the modular course, full time at cabair or oat?

[mcgoo]

I don't know, best to call them!

[sicky]

Yeah i'll have to find a loans hotline or something, i popped into my local HSBC and Barclays and neither seemed to know too much about PSL's or CDL's!!

[irish_cessna]

Not the only bad choice you've made along with the criminal conviction you mention on the other thread...

Have you tried doing the GAPAN tests first to ensure you are suitable and not wasting your cash?

Funny you should mention that as i have a class 1 medical and a Gapan test in the new yr. I doubt i'll have probems with either :D i'm just projecting myself optomistically to the future.
Ya i can afford the modular route, i'm just anxious not to leave gapping gaps in flying periods, hence i'd prefer to do F.I rating next and gladly teach for non-payment to gain experience.
on the other thing- what are brothers for :O

[joshiii]

Hello, i really want to go into Pilot training after i have finished my A-levels, i just wonder what is the most common way people get to become commercial pilots? I doubt that the majority of them self fund.

Thanks

[rwy_hdg]

Hello, i really want to go into Pilot training after i have finished my A-levels, i just wonder what is the most common way people get to become commercial pilots? I doubt that the majority of them self fund.

Thanks

I'm afraid to say that the majority of them do self fund! It's a huge investment to make. You may be lucky enough to find sponsorship programs which will perhaps fund some, if not all your training. However these sponsorship schemes have declined in number over the past decade. All i can say is, try and save as much cash as possible before you head off to the friendly bank manager to ask for some more cash to fund your training!!

Cheers
RWH

[mcgoo]

There are few scholarships around anymore, those that are can still cost a lot through bonding or reduced salary, competition is fierce for these places. I see from your previous posts that you were turned down by the military, that only really leaves self funding or applying to CTC or one of the scholarships, either way it's expensive.

[A330 Dreamer]

Evening,

I am due to sit my atpls with BGS in the next few months and I've saved up £ for my CPL. I was wondering if anyone can give advice, pointers to financing the I.R through bank loan/personal development loans etc?

Cheers

[TheOne83]

Hi there,

i wouldn't see a problem to borrow some money for your IR, your just 24 years and have plenty of time to pay back the money if you take a loan. You could even get a loan for your entire ATPL if money is the problem.

Let's say you where 40 years and you finish and get a work at around 45 because during five years you have been building hours and working a bit... when you retire at max 65 you had 20+5 years to pay back. If we then imagine you got a contract and you work at a company in UK for 20 years getting a salary of about 2,000£ a month and increasing as you get to captain that means that in 20 years you will earn 480,000£ + much more ;)
Because as captain you will earn more than 2,000£ a month..

2,000£x12month=24,000£x20years=480,000£

It's more than clear i think, if you can get a loan get it. Just if you don't have the money or other solution is best way to do it. There is also different ways you can pay back. You have to talk to your bank and get to an agreement.

Good luck with your ATPL exams! All the best!:ok:

/niko

[A330 Dreamer]

well I set up a standing order with the royal bank of scotland putting £120 a week away just to show the banks that A - i am saving and B - trying not to have a big financial burden? at the end of the training.

Would it make any difference if I changed my savings account to the HSBC bank because I see on some of the big FTO websites that they are the preferred bank. I had a thought, that if I saved with them for as much as I could cover I'd have a better chance of getting a substantial amount loaned to cover I.R cost.

Any advice on this matter appreciated.

[TheOne83]

Yes of course, as less you need to borrow the better and easier to get a loan because you need less money ;)

I'm not 100% of what i'm going to explain bellow in the next lines, but i hope that if it's not correct someone will tell us and explain. :ooh:

I've heard about HSBC loaning out money to ATPL students at big FTO's.. What you have to look at is how much taxes you have to pay each month or each year to borrow out X amount of money. I believe each bank has different rates. Every year you will pay totally X£ to the bank for borrowing out that money, but that doesn't mean that you have to start paying back the loan.

One thing you have to pay attention also is to the taxes, because they can increase or decrease.. so you have two options, to get a variable loan or fix. Variable loan means that you will pay 3% of taxes if at that moment the taxes are at 3% but if they decrease to 2,5% you will pay less and if they go up to 3,5 you will pay a bit more, but 1% more is not that much.. If you get a fix loan and the taxes are at let's say 4,75% and you choose to have it fix during 3 years, in thoose 3 years you will always pay 3,75% taxes to the bank, doesn't matter if the taxes increases 1% or decreases 0,5% you will pay 4,75% in taxes until the 3 years period expires.

I hope you understand what i mean and as i said you have to check with the banks and see what they have to offer. I supose it works that way in the UK too.
If anyone knows how it works exactlly i hope they correct my misstake.

It's then up to you witch bank you choose. :)

Later!

[chrisbl]

No it does not work that way in the UK

[AeroEng]

Hi there,

I plan to start applying to flight schools within the next couple of months and I plan to play for my training through loans (from the bank recommended by whatever FTO I choose).

From my research I think the best chance of employment after training would be with a Turboprop operator (which would be great) however the Prop wages are not as high as jet and so would paying back the £60k + loans not make finances very tight.

An example would be if I went to FTE and was lucky enough to land a job with Loganair, I would be starting on approx £20k and I would have to pay back the loan from this.

I suppose my main question would be if I took out the whole amount to pay for my training what would the repayments be and when would they start?

This would also be important if after training I was unfortunate not to land an job with an airline as i would still have this large debt to pay back.


AE

[Superpilot]

Rough example for repayments, warning this is going to hurt!

Say the cost of the course is £60k. You take a loan out for this amount. Most of these loans, the OAT / HSBC arrangement for example are set to be repayed over 7 years but ultimately you decide your repayment terms. You don't begin repaying the loan until after completion of training. Most banks give you 6 months on top I think.

Current combined interest rate (base + whatever the bank charges) is around 5.5%. Therefore your loan will become 60,000 x 1.055^7 = £87,280 by the time you finish paying it off.

£87,280 / 7 = £12,468 per year
£12,468 / 12 = £1,039 per month.

So that's £1,039 every month for 7 years. You need an annual before tax salary of roughly £15,000 just to pay off the loan.

A 1 bedroom flat outside London will cost you £500 per month in rent if your lucky. That's £6,000 per year plus bills and council tax.

Oh and you got to eat. That normally costs about £50 a week or close to £3000 a year.

So, what salary do you need to survive in your first year?

Loan = £12.5k
Rent = £6k
Bills = £2k
Food = £3k

Total £23.5k after tax, roughly £30k before tax. That is what you need to earn.

Or forget about Integrated training, be true to yourself, be realistic, and opt to do it the Modular way.

Note: Please someone check my math and slap me down if I've miscalculated anything.

[JetSetJ]

Hi there,

'Say the cost of the course is £60k. You take a loan out for this amount.'

HSBC will only loan a maximum of 50K secured. I am not aware of any UK bank that will loan the full amount of a professional studies loan, you could loan the full amount on a mortgage but payments begin straight away.

'Most of these loans, the OAT / HSBC arrangement for example are set to be repayed over 7 years but ultimately you decide your repayment terms.'

The HSBC loan is set to be paid over a maximum term of 11 years, although there are no penalties for paying the loan off early.

Regards

JetSetJ:ok:

[spitfire_007]

Aero, I suggest you research becoming a pilot like your life and financial status depended on it! Pilots are not that well paid upon graduating, from flight school. Even after five or six years, you are probably looking at around 40k (you may be lucky to get that after 7 or 10 yrs), excluding loan repayments (ie. type ratings etc).....which really isn't that good compared to other professions.

Think of it this way, you have 60k...you want to fly.....go to flight school and spend it. Come out with a JAA CPL etc etc etc..... only to find that a lot of major airlines require experienced pilots and the ones that are recruiting, will pick the very, very best!

You seen the film, 'The Terminator'?........basically, looking to the future........pilots may be replaced by extremely advanced technology...basically robots. What do you do then? Sorry bank manager, can't pay you this month, i've been replaced by a robot!

Pilots do the job because they love it, not for the pay!:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Superpilot, your calculations are correct :ok:

[Fat A1bert]

£50 a week for food? Blimey. If you budget you can spend half this (I have) - even in London. Smart price won't kill you, and might save you £1k - £2k. Doesn't sound much - but as they say, every little....

[BobbyK]

Actually I think youll find the loan repayments are higher than that. The HSBC one ive just taken out is 2.75% above base rate...so 8% at the moment. This means by the time ive fniished its around £95k to pay back ~£1100 a month. Ouch.

If you get 'sponsored' say by CTC you will get £1000 a month towards this (tax free) meaning you have about £100 a month extra to pay. This equates to around £2k off your salary a year (with tax). However if you have other loans (such as one for living expenses) you can epect to have about £200 a month to pay back for that. All in all Id say around £5k a year from your salary. Now cut salary whilst your making these repayments is probably ~21k so this leaves hopefully around 16k to live off of, be it on a house or the worlds finest cuisine.

If youre not sponsored youll hopefully have a starting salary along the lines of 33k and only have the extra tax as the difference in earnings.

[AeroEng]

Thanks for all the replys.

So if you plan to pay for your training through loans, which i do, landing a job on a Prop Airline (flybe, loganair etc) when your training is complete would mean you would have little to no money left to live on.

From what i have researched
Turboprop Operators start on approx £20000
Turbojet Operators start on aprrox £30000

AE

[spitfire_007]

correct....

[Pilot1229]

Hello!

I've been browsing this forum for quite some time, but haven't registered until today. I am currently in High School and graduating this June. It's not an exaggeration to say that my whole life is aviation, be it real world, computer simulators or aviation photography. I got the JAA PPL on my 18th birthday last September. As I now approach the point where I should take the very important step towards becoming a professional pilot, I am seriously looking for all kinds of possibilities to do it. I live in EU, but I would so much like to do the studies in the USA and maybe also get a job there.

Anyway, enough of myself - let's get to the question. As no bank in Estonia gives student loands for amounts like 50,000 USD, I need to get the financial aid from somewhere else. Does anyone know if some bank in the USA or in an EU country offers a student loan to someone who is not a citizen in the particular country? I believe there must be a way for me to get a loan :)

Thanks a lot!

[dartagnan]

the best would be to get yourself a decent job, then save money and in 15 years buy yourself an aviation training if you have enough cash.

what I want say: stay away from these crooks of banks...be debt free and have a normal life .

[Pilot1229]

That's a way :) However, in my country I'd have to work for 60 years to get the amount for a US school. Even more for a JAA one! So unless I was a pilot or became rich with business, I'd never earn the money here. My one and only wish is some aviation related job abroad and I really hope I can work the things out to get the ATP license.

Having a loan is really bad, but it might be the only thing I can do. Normal life for me would be to earn 2000 USD a month for flying and pay 1000 of it to a bank than sit in an office in Estonia and earn 1000 USD :uhoh:

[cudster]

I have finished ATPL groundschool and am now hour building and looking to start the CPL/IR soon, however I think it is still going to cost £25,000 from starting the CPL. I plan to borrow £8000 on a career development loan.

Has anyone any suggestions on the best way of raising the remaining £17000
without a morgage? :confused:

[ATPLwhoops]

Hi All,

If your able to receive the loan of £8,000 as the CDL. How are you to get the rest of the money from the bank??? One would assume that the remainder of the cash cannot be given on an interest free breathing period until you have finished your studies???


Please advise, also best banks to go to either in the UK or Ireland.

Thanks

ATPLWhoops

[MIKECR]

Not sure I understand your question. 8k is the max you will get on a CDL. The rest would have to be on a personal loan or Pro Studies loan. My understanding is that unless you are on an integrated course with OAT or Cabair then you can forget the Prof Studies loan. OAT and Cabair have succesfuly managed to wangle that loan for their own exclusive use, stuff anyone else!

So, either rob, steal, prostitute yourself, plead with mum and dad, or SAVE!!

[wbryce]

You are not limited to borrowing money to do your training. Past 3 years I have been working and learning part time...get some savings together, along with a CDL and your laughing...

[ATPLwhoops]

This is a joke right???


http://webplus.flight-training-grants.firm.org.uk/index2.htm

ATPLWhoops

[go_solo]

hehehehe...

I do love these sites! I particularly like the FAQ's and 21 is a cracker!

21. The investor must have a lot of money available.
Answer. They do. Institutional investors have a problem keeping huge amounts of money invested. This program is one way of solving a problem for them with good purpose for you.

I wonder which large institution has problems with investing its money.....geez!!! :rolleyes:

The only ones I know are mainly based in Columbia and Afghanistan.......and if you’re interested in this scheme then I'm sure they can also put you in touch with people who require low hour pilots who would like to get lots of experience in low level flying and don’t mind anti-social hours or remote grass/dirt strips!! :ok:

[mattoneous]

Hi all!

I am a UK citizen wishing to pursue a career as a helicopter pilot. I would like to live and work outside of the UK so JAA licencing is not a certain requirement for me, that said if it makes the dream possible I'd be happy to work in the UK too! :)
I am keen to do my training in either the US or Australia (respectable schools with better flying weather and exchange rate!) and would be very grateful if anyone could offer me advice on gaining financial support to cover/assist with my training costs. I am aware of career development loans in the UK and it would seem that the professional studies loans offered by Natwest and HSBC no longer cover aviation.
Any (legal) tips and advice you may have would be so very much appreciated,

Many Thanks to you all!

Matt Eke

[rba194]

You may get an answer here but also try posting the same question on the Rotorheads forum which is for helicopter pilots.

I know HSBC do cover aviation but I think it's probably just for integrated courses from zero to Frozen ATPL and quite possibly just fixed wing.

Good luck!

[ferrypilot]

You could apply for a $30,000 Pilot School Training Grant from
http://webplus.flight-training-grants.firm.org.uk

They give grants of $30,000.
You can also apply for more than one grant.

You don't have to pay it back.

[bluepeely]

Allright folks, I thought i'd let you know theres a decent way of raising some capital for those training the modular route that dosen't involve you selling your soul. Its the Virgin One Account so it only really applies to those who already have a mortgage. They are willing to release 99% of your house value, which not many other mortgage lenders will even consider. Its not for everybody but its working (hopefully:uhoh: ) for me even after being turned down for Loans,Credit cards etc. All you need is an understanding missus.........:oh: If anyone has one of those ill swop you her for my Unicorn.
And i dont work for Virgin Before anyone asks

[Groundloop]

Does anyone know if any loan support is available from the Student Loans Company for CTC Cadets?

Student loans only cover full-time HIGHER education courses. Pilot training is not higher education.

[Pilot1229]

Are you sure that Flight Safety Academy and Delta Connection Academy don't qualify? At least they have been on every list together with the universities.

[Groundloop]

Pilot1229, the question was regarding the Student Loans Company which is funded by the UK Government to provide loans to UK students going to UK universities and colleges. So Flight Safety Academy and Delta Connection Academy don't qualify as they are in the US.

[morbz]

Hi

On completion of my A levels (Maths, Physics, Business and Pyschology) I intend to enroll onto an Integrated course at either OAT or Cabair, if I pass the testing stage.

Thing is, every where I look all I can see is that loans run up to £25k and no more. Pilot training in this route will be around £60k, so therefore I don't see how training can be completed unless your a very well off person coming from a rich background.

This is frustrating because finance is the only thing that is stopping me from undertaking training. I'm not just another winer who needs money, I am serious about this career and even now my PPL training is difficult without financial help.

What do successful students of these courses actually do to find the finance? Also what roughly is the interest on around £60k repayable for up to 10 years?

Any help on this would be appreciated, I understand many people would have read similar questions so apologies to those.

Thanks for your time
Steve

[maxdrypower]

Steve I see a post from Scroggs in your future regarding searching as this subject has been done to death many times. At present if you are accepted onto an integrated course at oxford you may get a professional studies loan from hsbc , this used to be general loan anyone could aply for unfortnatley now you have to on an oxford int course , and also although I stand to be corrected Cabairs as well. I belive you contact the oxford branch of hsbc for details . Failing that matey get saving or talk to ma and pa. And dont go upsetting people on here saying your not another whiner , not many on here are and pretty much all are serious about a career in aviation , a lot of whom had pilots licences long before a'levels .
If your clever and arent a wet lettuce join the military they are desperate for aircrew and you wont have to pay for anything other than your uniform

[Lucifer]

Thing is, every where I look all I can see is that loans run up to £25k and no more. Pilot training in this route will be around £60k, so therefore I don't see how training can be completed unless your a very well off person coming from a rich background.
Working your behind to save for the money is how most do it. Nevertheless, I won't go on, as there is a long reference thread relating to the finance at the top of the forum, through scroggs' links.

[scruggs]

Welcome to the world of a wannabe!

Have a look here first: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=131649

Also, do a few searches and then come back if you can't find what you're looking for.

Happy reading.
eP.

[bluepeely]

QUOTE "This is frustrating because finance is the only thing that is stopping me from undertaking training."

Its stopping or slowing down the majority of us mate. Suppose it half the fun though knowing we are throwing all our assests, savings and shirts off our backs into a murky unstable future. Keeps me on my toes i can tell thee:bored: