Outside the Envelope

[jonesthepilot]

Prompted by stories of high altitudes in the Vulcan, 'Ihave a friend' who used to earn his crust by sitting in the back of an F3 Tornado. Now, he didn't mind the ride at M2.15 but he was a bit miffed at the double hush as the jet peaked at FL680!!! Still, no stick no vote - should have worked harder at school. BTW this event occurred in the early nineties. Anyone else out there been 'outside the envelope'?

[soddim]

I would award him a 'gold' for his miraculous escape - no engines, no pressurisation and no safety equipment to cope with the altitude.

Hope it was FL680 pointing downwards!

[Lafyar Cokov]

I once walked to the mess without a hat.......

[LateArmLive]

Hope you put in an HFOR!

[wg13_dummy]

What? HFOR for the hat?

[LateArmLive]

Absolutely! Flight safety is everyones business:}

[The Rocket]

Did your "friend" really sit in the back seat of an F3?:hmm:

Certainly possible in theory, as F3's were zoom climbed to above FL700 I believe during initial trials,

However, these aircraft would have been very different to fleet aircraft, and I certainly have never been that high personally.

If he'd been chasing Mach 2.15, I wouldn't be surprised to hear a 'double hush' of the fuel starvation variety:E :ok:

[Black 'n Yellar]

Its a shame that the current F3 struggles to get above 20k with any serious load on it!!

[Lafyar Cokov]

My hat easily makes 300' on a good day!!!!

[The Rocket]

Its a shame that the current F3 struggles to get above 20k with any serious load on it!!

And you'd be the authority on that would you:rolleyes:

[HEIGHTSGOODBACK5]

10 out of 10 for trying LC, I sense my toy is better than your toy coming up:8
Have you tried Thunderflash assistance on your Hat-trick,apparantley FL ridicularse is achievable, especially if your hat is in a clean config!!!!!!

[Lafyar Cokov]

It doesn't have a cannon in the nose if that helps - but it does have a lump of metal shaped exactly like a cannon - with all the intricate components modelled exactly as they would be for a real cannon........Makes you wonder why I didn't just leave a working cannon in there really.... but it is just a hat after all!!!!

[Lara crofts pants]

I did hear that the man they call "dead dog" took the F3 to 72k and then had a double flame out.

[LateArmLive]

I bet he did it really quickly though, probably faster than anyone else has!:ok:

[teeteringhead]

A very different league, but I don't suppose that FL435 in an (unpressurised!) JP 4 counts for much......

Mind you ... I felt grim for days afterwards, and didn't even win the Course "how-high-did-YOU-go-on-the-high-level-solo" prize....:{ :{

[VigilantPilot]

Can anyone help me out:

I was reading a short story from a book called "Wild Blue: Stories of Survival from Air and Space". One guy ejected from about 50k above a thunderstorm. He goes into great detail about how much it hurt and how his body nearly exploded. How can you take an unpressurised jet that high if this is true? What am I missing?

[DaveW]

If it's the event I'm thinking of, originally from a book called "The Man Who Rode The Thunder" by William Rankin, then I don't think he was at 50k when he abandoned the aircraft (a Crusader, IIRC).

It was somewhat lower, inside a Cb and breaking up when he ejected. It was the subsequent ride in the cloud that bubbled him up to extremes of altiitude.

[VigilantPilot]

Thats the one. Just dug out the book - he says he ejected at 48000ft. He then focusses on describing the specific 'unbearable' pain of 'explosive decompression'. He says he felt like he could burst and that his stomach visibly became swollen. He also talks about scientist saying his blood would boil at such low pressures.

Is this true? If so you couldn't take an unpressurised jet to 45k ft. And if this is true, what is so different between that and rapid decompression in the chamber to 38k ft?

[ColdWarWimp]

I didn't notice any pressurisation on Space Ship 1. Did Burt Rutan change the laws of physics or has the old "blood boils in space" theory finally been demunked?:confused:

[Blodwyn Pig]

i've always been taught that blood boils over 60k ft, and its rather like the bends.

[VigilantPilot]

Hmmm...there seems a confliction here. The human body can quite happily rapidly decompress to 40k' in a chamber, I know this much. William Rankin though describes a scene of his body literally ballooning when he rapidly decompressed at 48k'. Was he mixing facts? ie he wasn't in pain through the decompression, just from the sub-zero temperatures when he initially ejected?

[psy clops]

William Rankin though describes a scene of his body literally ballooning when he rapidly decompressed at 48kPerhaps he didn’t exhale on the 3-2-1?:)

[The Rocket]

I would hazard a guess that there is more than a little embellishment going on in that story. Perhaps to sell a few more copies of his book?

from the Martin Baker website:

Highest altitude escape using MBA ejection seat (both successful) British Canberra Bomber - 57,000 ft in 1958

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

Just as a passing thought...
Max altitude of Eurofrightner is +70G feet if I recall correctly. Assuming an ejection at max alt, how long do you sit in the seat at terminal velocity hoping like hell it is all going to go swimmingly before seperation at 10 thou?

[JTIDS]

Once took my Bulldog up to 200 knts, 15 above the vne of 185...
Is that far enough outside the envelope?
:bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored:

[Biggus]

I normally write the address and stick the stamp on the outside of the envelope.......

Does this count?

[teeteringhead]

I think maybe the blood boiling/body ballooning takes a very very long time ...

My previously reported unpressurised excursion above FL430 was more than 30 years ago, and the flying suit(s) have certainly become much tighter since then! ;)

[jonesthepilot]

Apart from JTIDS (and that was well outside of the envelope in per centage terms!), is there really nobody out there with any personal experiences to recount? Either the spirit of adventure is dead or a combination of censure and Flight Data Recording have given the modern military mans desire for that little bit extra a knock on the head?

[jonboy38]

Not sure that it was technically 'outside the envelope' but the transonic run my QFI showed me in the Hawk at night out of valley was pretty exciting. Roll inverted, pull to 60nose down, roll upright and plummet Irish seawards so fast the OFF flag came up in the altimeter. Stare at machmeter for what seemed like an eternity, convince yourself it was >1.0 and the shudder your way back to level flight! All that achieved for an altitude loss of 26,000'!!

[longgone]

Rumour has it that quite recently over 8g was pulled in an un-official speed and G first solo competion at Linton! Bad news for all those involved who were given a briefing by stern but secretly quite impressed CFI.

Many "Lines Books" have since been destroyed!

[Yeller_Gait]

IIRC, I once managed 6 (hot) jam donuts, 3 chocolate lovelys, three pies and two main meals on a 6 hour Nimrod sortie.

Now that is outside the (eating) envelope.

[NutherA2]

:sad: We were tasked to intercept & escort a visiting 4-ship of Drakens (in 1961!). Their UHF & our VHF fits complicated communication a bit, but GCI relayed to us the Swedes’ invitation to join in their low level arrival flypast at Coltishall. During the flyby our Javelin seemed a bit noisy and we were starting to run out of power, so, being seriously involved in the close formation bit, I asked my back-seater (not my usual Navigator) for an IAS check. He was busy with his camera, but had a quick look & told me 540 knots; this was only VNE +5, so we pressed on. When it came time to slow down, found the airbrakes wouldn’t operate much & throttling back produced all sorts of banging. It transpired that my GIB had misread his multi-needle ASI & we’d actually managed 640 KIAS. I suppose 105 knots too many counts as “outside the envelope”. At my Flight Commander’s formal debrief he mentioned that the Javelin’s 535 KIAS limit was an elevator flutter consideration, which should be taken seriously. I should add this was early in my Javelin career & the learning curve was still a bit steep.:\