finding your way back to the carrier

[Aerofoil]

hi all,

Just a quick question from a civi pilot. I was wondering how the navy pilots find their way back to an aircraft carrier after going out on a sortie? is there a radio beacon on the carrier or do you just use coordinates tapped into a GPS?
If a radio beacon, do you not get strange reading due to the boat itself 'bending' the readouts?

Cheers

Foil

[Onan the Clumsy]

If it can be done after an extended shore leave with the after effects of the Rolfies still making you a little woozy, I would have thought that stone cold sober would be a doddle.

[miles offtarget]

Unsure how they do it now, I assume some sort of moving waypoint in the INS or GPS with a memory dump switch (such as we had in the Puma after the Nav update) for rapid use in case you have to make make an off airport landing when still sausage side.

But an ex colleague of mine, who flew RN Fireflies and Sea Furies from carriers during the Korean War, said that the warships had a NDB type thingy which was split into four quadrants each giving dots or dashes or a combination.

This way the Chinese couldn't simply home in on the carrier and sink it as the Air Wing was turning from downwind to finals !

Aircrews used to write the gen on the back of their flying glove before each sortie, that's the QDM for each quadrant I assume.

Explained to me a long time ago, and dimly remembered, but something like that.

Having just re-read this, I see that's it's been of no help whatsoever.

Cheers,

MoT

[Blacksheep]

They open the cockpit canopy and follow their noses to dinner.

"You've gotta land here son. This is where the food is..."

[Pierre Argh]

Whilst it was just FAA squadron's onboard they relied on navigation and a bit of luck... in fact the suggestion that TACAN be fitted was positively scoffed at ("you couldn't use it in war therefore there was no place for it onboard")... but now the RAF have joined the party, the ships are being fitted with TACAN.

Now far be if from me to infer anything, but....?

[jEtGuiDeR]

I was wondering how the navy pilots find their way back to an aircraft carrier after going out on a sortie? is there a radio beacon on the carrier or do you just use coordinates tapped into a GPS?Nah, they've got these wierd things called ATCO's on the carriers!!

[ORAC]

Not all of them did. Remember Sub-Lt Watson and the Alraigo (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=36190)... :E

[Data-Lynx]

It was simpler for one destroyer. In the glorious days of DLGs, the fall back for HMS Norfolk's Wessex III was to recover visually, even in totally darkened conditions with silent EMCON. While the huge sliding door/port side hangar wall might be closed, there was a hinged triangular dogflap in the bottom left hand corner which was always left open. It was just large enough to squeeze through on your knees. There was a red light outside the Flight office on the starboard side of the hanger so the trick was to establish the ship's cse/speed before switching off the radar then approach low level on a bearing of red 170. It was impressive just how far out you could pick up the light - simple combat id.

[Lyneham Lad]

Slightly OT as I don't recall a Beverley doing a carrier landing, but the saying about 34 Sqn at Seletar was that they navigated outbound by dead-reckoning and then RTB'd by back-tracking along their oil slick!

[oncemorealoft]

There's a bit in the movie 'Apollo 13' where 'Jim Lovell' (Tom Hanks) recounts a time when he lost all electrics at night in a carrier aircraft. He wonders how he's going to find his way back to the carrier. Then he spots a fluorescent trail in the sea which leads back to the carrier. Apparently, the wake of the boat had churned up phosphorescent plankton in the sea making them glow.

I don't know if the story is from Lovell's original story about Apollo 13 ('Lost Moon') upon which the movie is based or whether it was added by the sometimes overly sentimental director of the film, Ron Howard.

[Widger]

Miles Off Target,

Moving waypoints is not far from the truth. The Shar also has a Radar which helps, but the ATCOs are quite key to the recovery IMHO, especially for the non radar fitted GR.

Very basic skills are used. Primary Radar primarily using ident turns.

Direction Finding even LLQGH if required.

SSR is available, although not as useful for reasons I will not discuss here.

and TACAN is now available.

"The Sea Harrier has an AD 2770 Tacan tactical air navigation system from BAE SYSTEMS and MADGE Microwave Airborne Digital Guidance Equipment from Thales Defence. The Royal Navy Sea Harrier FA2 update programme includes the fitting of a reversionary IPG-100F GPS from Rockwell-Collins (UK) Ltd."

But this comment above is redundant after Mar 06.

WEBF you are banned from taking part in this conversation!

[Schiller]

"and TACAN is now available."

We had TACAN available on our carriers in the 1960's. Didn't always work, mind, and since nobody could go up to the top of the mast until the funnel smoke had been switched off, it stayed U/S from (usually) the first day at sea until we got back to harbour.

[SARowl]

That's why you carried an Observer. He could do the DR and work doppler TANS. Destroyers/Frigates also displayed a mast head red light from a pre-determined time which could be seen from a long way.

[Widger]

Schiller,
That is progress for you.
When the old Ark was scrapped, the RN managed to get the CVS procured. Unfortunately, because it was a "through deck cruiser" with a mainly ASW focus, recovery of FW aircraft was not high on the list of priorities and so, things like TACAN got ditched/were not bought.
The best thing that ever happened to the CVS was when, during the recent refits, they removed Sea Dart. This finally emphasised to the Warfare fraternity (The RN Master Race), that the CVS was not a Type 42 on steroids but an aviation platform, there solely to project Air Power. Money has always been tight but finally, due to the efforts of some, Illustrious has TACAN and PAR has been lined up as well. Some way to go, but getting there. The Type 45 should also have some utility as well, in helping aircraft get back to mother. The CVS will hopefully be all singing and dancing in the ATC/WC aspects and not just focussed around firing missiles/launching torpedoes.
The ATCOs on ships have been living on the edge for years and finally are emerging, if not into the 21st century at least into the 1990s! So not all is rotten in the state of MOD. There is some good news on the equipment front!
Finally, to answer the original question, it is bl**dy difficult getting back to the ship. Even when you tell people where you are, sometimes they can still not find you. It is challenging flying and controlling, when one day you can be on the south coast in low lying areas and two days later in a loch or fjord in dog$h!t weather, with limited local knowledge. Easy for me, my ar$e stays firmly strapped to the deck! (2000 hours fixed and rotary chairs(apologies to Nigel Cole)).
I have nothing but admiration for those who chuck themselves off the deck at night into the Ocean Sky, not knowing if mother is going to be there when they get back, short of fuel with no diversion!
Respect!

[El-Dog]

not knowing if mother is going to be there when they get back, short of fuel with no diversion!
One thing is for certain - Mum invariably is never where she was at launch - the trick is to prevent the ship's officer of the watch buggering off in completely the opposite direction to that stated at the brief. Many happy moments returning to the pre-determined recovery position - "I'm here, now where are you??"

[bad livin']

Can someone please just describe OUTHOUSE.

[Data-Lynx]

Ah El-Dog - such memories. It wasn't always a problem with mother - if the recovery was successful, you could always throttle someone in the Ops Room. It was NATO that offered snags in finding the right deck and something to suck. Although never formally written down as doctrine, NATO seemed to regularly translate the instructions VERTREP and Helo Transfer in an ATO as the ancient WWII order for ships to scatter. This meant fuel on a friendly deck in the right place would be essential before you got anywhere near the final landing. I have horrible recollections of a suddenly empty Baltic at dusk when just trying to get some mail to a Yank frigate. Not exactly a punchy warrior-like excuse for mislaying a perfectly serviceable helo and taking a lonely and icy bath. Lets face it, no-one has ever accused a Lynx of being able to float.

[WorkingHard]

Remember Sub-Lt Watson and the Alraigo...
I was at Wittering soon after this event and foolishly remarked how lucky/quick thinking the fellow was. Gasps all round and some kind chap said "he did not know what country the ship was from before he landed. It may have been Russian" Good points made all round but what was the truth of that? Did he know anything before landing? Sorry if its a bit off topic.

[Navaleye]

It was in daylight, so I'm guessing he had time to eyeball the registry and flag. Good point though. Donating an RN jet even a FRS1 to the Sovs would not have popular.

[Pontius Navigator]

The RN is not the only flt deck hard to find.

Couple of S2 out of KSS in late '70s had difficulty finding mother. But then if you put 3E in the IN when mother is 3W.

[Data-Lynx]

PN. Try the US Army at sea, especially with that wonderful Yank expectation that orders will be obeyed to the letter. In the mid 80s, a collection of US helos loaded with specialist troops deployed to Lee-on-Solent to exercise with the UK. As part of the preps, a night visit was planned to a target somewhere south of the Solent. The briefing stated clearly that this ship would achieve a rendevous at a time, location and exact course and speed, the US would conduct this serial themselves and no assistance was needed to vector them onto the target. Their birds did not use radar - too active, but the ship's commercial navigation radar should be easy to find, except that the target was a Royal Fleet Auxilliary tanker in the English Channel. The UK Sea King and Lynx crews marvelled at their kit and their belief that they would find the RFA. In turn, they were amazed at what we did, without NVGs. Needless to say, they launched to explore an empty bit of sea at the RV and a fruitless search for the right white stern light in the Channel shipping lanes. They returned empty-handed 90 minutes later. For those brave souls who sit outside the little birds (see Blackhawk Down), we did manage to thaw them out with treble rum inserts to foaming hot chocolate.

[Pierre Argh]

"he did not know what country the ship was from before he landed. It may have been Russian" I do remember the Spaniards (?) tried to claim slavage rights though?

It's possibly worth recording that the fact he was "Sub Lt" at the time of said incident indicates, but not forgives, his experience level? What are we talking about, early 80's; thankfully not many Shar's have been "lost" in similar circumstances since?

[ORAC]

Not only tried, succeeded. Got 500,000 pounds salvage. I don´t think they took it out of his pay......

[Navaleye]

Seem to remember they impounded the jet until the MoD coughed up as well.

[Pierre Argh]

Really, I though the legal case went against them... mind you £500K against a deep-sea recovery operation is probably the cheaper option?

[ORAC]

They recovered it, repaired it and returned it to service. Try that with one from the oggin if he´d stepped over the side. Cheap at the price, even for a SHar......

[miles offtarget]

Slightly off message, but remember one night RV in RAF helicopter with RN warship off coast of Northern Ireland in preparation for something or other; anyway, on time on target...sort of, but said vessel was no where to be seen.

Running short-ish of gas, we thought , b**s to the exercise and climbed to medium level to have a better look on the NVG, finally saw said ship some distance away.

Later told that anti-sub measures of zigging and zagging were being enforced and chap on the bridge got his zigs and zags out of sync !

Sounded a lame excuse to us, anyway, not especially impressed.

Cheers,

MoT

[NutherA2]

[quote=Pierre Argh]but now the RAF have joined the party, the ships are being fitted with TACAN.

Back in the early 70’s our F4 was tasked with CAP in the Bay of working with the Mighty Ark. When we arrived at the expected RV, no Ark was to be seen; eventually found her something like 80 nm away from the notified PIM. Ship’s navigator asked for, and was allegedly grateful to get, our Landivisiau related TACAN fix while in his overhead; he reckoned several days bad weather with no sun/star shots had b******d up his DR plot.
ote]

[Widger]

I am sure there are many more stories of ship not near RV/Outhouse or misidents. IME all it takes is one savvy person to stop the rot by highlighting the problem early. It is certainly an unforgiving environment to fly in and it takes lots of training/whacking on heads (see Sub Commander thread) to get it right sometimes. Even when on deck you are not always safe as the Dolphin Club will attest. Maybe we need a new thread for falling off ships!

[Pontius Navigator]

Yeah one exercise, we pitched up at ZZ with only one vessel on the radar. Suspect it might have had a red flag. Anyway we eventually raised the cowboy holding a loanly picked on ZZ with the rest of the TF 270 ZZ 200!