Skydiving Industry Reputation

[Tibbsy]

The recent run of bad news for the skydiving industry prompted a friend of mine (another pilot) to launch into a fairly critical diatribe about safety in the industry. I might point out that she was speaking in terms of purely flight safety (as opposed the the safety aspects of the jumpers themselves) and the ethos/attitudes of the pilots 'working' (for free mostly:sad: ) in the industry.
She gave me some examples of why and then said that she felt that the majority of the professional aviation industry held the opinion that "most jump pilots are cowboys". A very sweeping statement obviously. She made a disparaging remark about job applicants who relied on substantial jump pilot time in demonstrating their experience and suggested that she would think twice about employing someone with this type of back-ground, if they were competing with someone with other, presumably more useful/'ethical' flying experience.
In my silly youth I was a regular skydiver, before I flew professionally and in hindsight, I witnessed some pretty bloody silly aviation committed by some jump pilots (close formation by unqualified pilots in largish aircraft, very low beat ups, overloading, questionable airworthiness, illegal night flying.....). Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it?
So my questions are:
What does the rest of the aviation industry currently think about jumping operations and pilots
What do current jump pilots think?

[Hugh Jarse]

Tibbsy,
I don't hold a very high opinion of the operation that drops at TONTO. Many is the time we are coming into SY via BIK or RIVET, which takes you in the vicinity of that area. Ironically, we have been flying over 100% overcast - NO breaks in the cloud for 50 miles, when you hear them on climb to F140 for a parachute drop:confused: :confused:

Clearly the conditions are not suitable, yet they appear to be able to do the drop.

That's right, they "find a hole".:yuk: Hopefully, the exception rather than the rule......

Give me a break:E

[Tibbsy]

Yep, remember that type of thing happening too Hugh. I know that some DZs have a CASA instrument to conduct jumping through cloud under certain conditions though. Picton is 7nm North of Tonto, that might the DZ you're referring to. They have CASA approval to jump through cloud (http://www.casa.gov.au/rules/miscinst/index.htm. Without wanting to get into the debate about whether it should be allowed or not, here (www.pprune.org/forums/printthread.php?threadid=101131) is the link to a pprune debate about it.


Another question I want to pose for feedback is this;

If skydiving is conducted as a club i.e. for sports parachuting, then I can see the arguement that pilots do not need a CPL(A) to fly the aircraft. But where operations are commercial i.e. taking tandems etc, should the pilots be expected to hold a CPL(A) and should the operation be obliged to be regulated by CASA in the same way any other commercial aviation operation is?

[JetABro]

Simply all jump pilots should be CPL.

All jump pilots should have some sort of addional training wheather it be a jump endoursement or at least reading and understanding the APF pilot guide or similar along the lines.

Even the McFinish is worth while as it is directed at diver driving.

[flaming_moe]

In NZ it is actually a requirement. Jump pilots in NZ need to sit a theory exam for their rating...it covers parachute systems, malfunctions etc. Our organisation puts freshies through 10 observing hours before any hands on, then a further 5 hours in control under direct supervision.

Having a CPL in NZ is always preferred, I dont know of any DZ's that have PPL pilots flying for them regularly.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Hi JetA,

Members of the APF are required to read the APF manual and sit an exam, these exams are marked, kept on file etc etc, the pilots can hold a PPL ( as it is private operations ).

I do not know a Jump Pilot that does not hold a CPL, nearly all have over 750 tt, most have IR and time on type supervised ( ten odd hours, many pilots do not ever fly on their own, probably 30% do not meet the standard and are sacked, all of these to date were CPL holders ).

I feel PPL or CPL, makes no difference, there needs to be a culture developed, one that understands cause and effect, perhaps the APF could start sending out their " Senior Jump Pilot", to conduct annual checks ?, not a bad idea.

Many operators are permitted to drop through Cloud.

In previous CP positions, i too would not look favourably on a pilots with lots of parachuting experience, its a very different world to charter.

If you were to employ a new pilot for a charter position, who better to fill it than a pilot with previous charter experience, so what was earlier said makes sense ( compared to parachute ops experience ).

Cowboys, every facet of our industry has them, ever seen photo's of a charter pilot flying at tree tops or flying on autopilot taking a photo from the rear seat ?, i sure have seen a few.

[FullySickBro]

While the skydiving industry has had a bad run lately I still find it surprising that people will openly categorise all jump pilots as "cowboys". The recent incidents/accidents were hardly the result of cowboyish behaviour.

I think issue of requiring a CPL for parachuting ops is not overly relevant since nearly all jump pilots I have met in my time have have been CPLs anyway, especially in tandem operations. However the regs could do with a admendment to reflect this.

My 2 cents worth would be to skydiving operations appoint a senior pilot and produce a quasi operations manual and operate a check and training type set up with a flight check conducted once a year by an APF appointed pilot.

And yes, Picton operates to a cloud manual thus no hole necessary. :ok:

[Lascivious]

Pilots scrounging for jobs that will work for free and fly in planes held together by 100m/hr tape in questionable weather. On the rare occasion there are operators that have decent aircraft and actually pay their pilots, it's a shame these are few and far between.

[JetABro]

LRT

Jump pilots don't need to be members of the APF, don't know many who are unless they jump or are packers as well. Don't know any who have got into jump flying with more than 500tt. This may be the case in your neck of the woods but is not the industry norm.
I totally agree with the comment that they get grouped as cowboys. Which is a shame as I've seen many charter pilots doing really dumb things just as I've seen many Diver driver pilots doing them as well.
Would be good to see more control over the industry though, something from a impartial, neutral person that could advise the regulator. That's my thoughts anyway.

JetABro

[QNIM]

Gday
This subject has been done on several posts previously and I think my thoughts on the matter are well known but here goes.
Skydiving is a commercial operation, so the aircraft lifting is an airwork flight,
To conduct airwork flights you are required to hold an Air Operators Certificate, Have an approved Chief Pilot who is required to carry out check and training, The pilot operating a Commercial Pilots Licence, an OPS Manual and audited by CASA.
Non of the above is required because the people participating in skydiving know the dangers involved in the sport, I wonder if those involved in the accident in Queensland realised the implications of this.
Cheers Q