Flying Schools

[engine room]

Hi, I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any great flying schools in the Brisbane are?

[VH-BUA]

Hi Ogs,

I live on the gold coast but have spoken to a few people about flying schools in brisbane. It seems FTA (Flight Training Australia) seem to be very good. My previous instructor went through Arena and said he wouldn't recommend them. Same goes with sunland aviation. The flying school I am currently at, Air Gold Coast, at Coolangatta is excellent, if you were considering the gold coast as well.

Cheers

James

[engine room]

Thanks James, why is Arena no good, i have been to see them and they are close to me as they operate from redcliffe aswell. I would consider the coast but it would be expensive to live at the same time.

[VH-BUA]

Hi Ogs,

He did his CPL in 2000 and said their aircraft fleet were old compared to other flying schools. He didn't go into great detail but just stated that there were better flying schools in Brisbane. From what I have heard, FTA is a good school and has produced many pilots now working for the airlines.

James

[dude65]

Ogs
If you're in the Redcliffe area you shold also check out Redcliffe Aero Club.

[VH-BUA]

Yeah they have a brand new C172 SP, look like a good school.

[hair of the dogma]

At my first job three out of the four went to sunland and another came from interstate. Went through sunland 01ish was alright then no wanky uniforms and no pimply instructors. Have not been to other schools so cant comment about them. Smaller school i only had 2 instructors in 18 months. But smaller fleet and planes sometimes got booked out. Half a dozen times in 18 months or so.

Worth a look anyway. Ask all the flying schools what employment prospects are like, if they tell you that you will be flying long haul in jets in 18 months time steer clear. The pilot shortage is about to hit next year though so you might be lucky to have got in at this time

[wateroff]

Whilst looking at Archerfield, stop in at Airline Academy of Australia. It is a subsidiary of the Royal Qld Aero Club, which is run as a separate entity. There has been a dramatic increase in crew and new aircraft at RQ. There is some extremely good new talent (ex everything from reputable global airlines)in the ground and flight instruction, and they are teaching alot of airline cadets already. So if you are looking to go airline, this would be my pick. They also seem to get alot of 'refugees' from other schools on the aerodrome.............worth a look

[engine room]

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts!

[tstanton]

You just can't go past the Redcliffe Aero Club they are at www.redcliffeaeroclub.com.au :ok:

[dude65]

That opinion from tstanton would be totally unbiased

[engine room]

I had a look at the Redcliffe Aero Club yesterday and they seem pretty good and they competitive price wise aswell.

[Dry_Twotter]

If you really want to learn some REAL skills that will realisticly prepare you for your first job, i recomend Mal beard Aviation (operates under hemples AOC now i think) at archerfield. Mal has been in the industry for a long time, and his background includes Ag and Aerobatics.
www.aeros.com.au
Generally, ive found the sausage factory's give you the impression that the first job will come easily, but this is not the case. Remember - new junior instructors generally don't know as many people in the industry than the old guys - plus you learn 10 times as much per flight lesson with the veterans.

[VH AMF]

Flight Training Australia seems a nice place, and there are some tough instructors there that will get you doing things the right way. The Royal Queensland Aero Club is also quite good, but when you become a member of the RQAC you get cheaper aircraft higher, and landing fees are paid at Archerfield, although FTA has cheaper aircraft hire anyway,sooo.

[tstanton]

Also keep in mind flying from Archerfield will cost you LANDING FEES every time your wheels touch the ground. How many time will you do that during all your training (add that up....when you look at the fees too)

[Jerrym]

The best flying school in SE Queensland is just outside of the Brisbane area. I spent 8 years flying, (both learning, and after completing my commercial) in and around the Brisbane area. The Darling Downs Aero Club based in Toowoomba is the best school that turns out some of the best most capable commercial pilots in Australia. I know for a fact, that they have contacts in Kunnunnurra who call every few months to see if any more of their students have completed their commercials. They are the only school that I have ever seen that does not quote on the bare minimums. They quote realistic costs, and have the advantage of no landing fees up to GFPT, minimal traffic, excellent aircraft and facilities, and the most modern instructing techniques used today. I have trained at Archerfield, and I have trained in Toowoomba, and I wish I had have gone there earlier. Yes, it is a bit of a drive, but if you make a weekend of it, I gaurentee that you will recieve the highest standard of training found in Queensland, and dare I say it, Australia. And I've worked from one side to the other.

[Ando1Bar]

If you live on the northside, use the Redcliffe Aero Club. If you live on the south side you may want to try FTA or RQAC. All three schools are well known in the industry and employ good instructors. Stay clear of places like Arena who operate like a sausage factory and treat staff and students like rubbish.

[dude65]

Stay clear of places like Arena who operate like a sausage factory and treat staff and students like rubbish.

I'll 2nd that

[katatonic84]

I would just like that say to those that are interested in a aviation career that you should make up your own opinion about any fly school that is near you, including arena aviation. Everyone has their own opinion.... and for those that have bad things to say about that particular school need to rethink about what is being said and whether what you are saying is true...
All schools cater for different peoples needs and expectations, if they don't suit yours or they cost too much then sure go to another school and get a price from there but don't bag the previous school out because they don't have what you want or how you want it, you probably didn't ask the right questions in the first place.
I'm not sticking up for Arena and saying that everyone should fly there, even I'm with a different school, but please don't put it down cause it may not suit your needs but it may suit someone elses.

[TinDriver]

Well said Katatonic84,
I also am from a different school, and as much as I have my reasons for not liking a particular company, I still respect the fact that everyone has individual needs that 1 company can cater to and the other 1 can't.
Competition is a healthy thing IMHO.
Anyway, blue is not my favourite colour:ok:

[katatonic84]

Thank You Tindriver,
Yes competition is healthy but its BAD competition when a person is putting a bad vibe to that 1 company. Say for an example that you owned a small Aviation school and you were trying to get it off the ground as well as providing the best service and instructors that you possibly can find and afford..... you will always at some stage find a bad instructor or one that you don't get on with, its like being at school. You wont get on with everyone and you may not get on with one in particular but to put a bad name towards that school because you didn't like it for your own reasons, that is your problems but to tell "other" ppl not to go there is completely unfair. But honestly how would you feel as the owner of that school to find people really bagging out your school and maybe even turning ppl away from it ?

[engine room]

Would anyone know approximently how much you would be looking at for landing fees over the period of a commercial licence?

[dude65]

Ogs
I think it's still $16.50 for each take off & landing at YBAF.When I flew there you weren't charged for each touch and go when doing circuits. Even then, I wouldn't expect much change out of $500.00 if you're going to do your PPL.

Sorry Ogs. Didn't see commercial in your post. Make it $1000

[Ando1Bar]

Thank You Tindriver,
But honestly how would you feel as the owner of that school to find people really bagging out your school and maybe even turning ppl away from it ?

The owner should rethink the way he in particular treats others - from other flying schools on the airfield through to their own students.

My comments were based on my own experiences and from those of at least 30 students/pilots I know who have passed comment in the last year.

I'm sure there are pilots who do love flying for the school we are talking about. However if you witnessed the disrespect one such flying school in particular shows other operators it's no wonder such bad comments are made.


Yes competition is healthy but its BAD competition when a person is putting a bad vibe to that 1 company. Say for an example that you owned a small Aviation school and you were trying to get it off the ground as well as providing the best service and instructors that you possibly can find and afford.....

There is absolutely no way the company being mentioned is a young and small organisation. The bad vibe originated from the school in question and there have been many occasions when they have engaged in BAD competition.

The original question asked for recommended flying schools - I put forward three suggestions and others backed me up with whom to avoid. If people are saying such things the owner of the flying school being bashed needs to have a good look at how he operates. He can start by refraining from calling himself Captain...

[Oz Vegemite]

Just a few thoughts for you....every airport has landing fees not just AF. So I wouldn't be choosing my school on that basis.
My other comment is that if you are aspiring to be a professional pilot, go to a school that offers professional training - and no I don't just mean training to CPL level. The school should offer a professional, integrated approach where the theory training is integrated with the flying training. The school needs to have a clearly defined syllabus of training, and it shouldn't be based on CASA minimums - because no one is going to achieve them! The flying training should be at a high standard, and include the extra "bits" that take you from being just another CPL holder to a polished operator. It makes a difference!
People like Mal Beard are excellent Pilots are offer great Aeros training, but they are where you go to complete a full professional licence, particularly if you are looking for the airline advantage.
Good luck
Oz V :)

[Ando1Bar]

If you pick a school that's a registered training organisation (RTO) you'll be in good shape as well. They are required to construct a full syllabus meaning you'll be receiving extremely professional training. All instructors are required to hold Certificate IVs in Training & Assessment (it may be called something different now), meaning you will receive a high standard of instruction.

Not all airports have landing fees - Redcliffe & Caboolture are two airfields in the Brisbane area that are free from such fees. This will save you a few hundred dollars during your GFPT training. :ok:

[RENURPP]

They are required to construct a full syllabus meaning you'll be receiving extremely professional training.

What a load of BULL.
The syllabus required by the beauracrats that monitor RTO's would not know one if it bit them on their arse. A lot of schools have good syllabus that are not RTO's.

As for that means you will be receiving extremely professional training, what planet do you come from. It is the professionalism and experience of the instructor/lecturer/teacher that determines that. Then the student has to apply themselves and take advantage of what is on offer. Simply hanging an RTO shingle out side the door means zero.

All instructors are required to hold Certificate IVs in Training & Assessment (it may be called something different now), meaning you will receive a high standard of instruction

Again what a load of crap.
A few days sitting in a class room with some one else who has done a few days sitting in a class room trying to relay their interpretation of what they remember means nothing, and you only have to do the few days if you can't talk them into RPLing the whole thing.

My advise is go and sit down with who ever will be training you and ask some questions about them and the school. You are well and truly entitled to, consider you may be spending the same amount as an expensive car. Would you buy a car without taking it for a drive??

Some examples I would ask are.
Who will be teaching me?
How long have they been employed with this organisation
What experience does he/she have? Not just hours in log book either.
Is he/she employed full part time?
Which days do they work?
What are the ambitions of the instructor? i.e. airline capt or flight instructor?
If he/she leaves, sick or is booked out what are my options?
Who is the CFI and whats his/her previous experience?
How much? include evrything ldg fees books etc.
What are the minimum hours, based on miminum hours how much?
What are realistic hours, and how much?
Show me your aircraft?
Do you stock theory books?
What can I expect in the way of pre flight abnd post flight briefings, is that extra?
Show me your training aids.

Their are probably no correct answers to these questions. Some people may not like to answer them at all, that to me is a sign to look for the closest exit, otherwise you will have some idea about who you are about to get involved with.

Write down the answers.

Then maybe come back here with some replies your not sure about, and ask for oppinions, just don't mention particular schools or locations. As you have probably figured out, there are vested interests amongst this mob, hence their comments are worthless.

There are heaps more Q??? some one else care to add some.

[White Wagon]

Spot on RENURPP. This post looks like an advertising board.

All I'll add is you want to learn from someone who has something to teach. Avoid fresh CPL / Instructors and try find someone who has lots of experience instructing and enjoys their job, then you might be on a winner.

My favorite questions for the schools are;
Do you charge for airswitch or VDO?
How much do you pay your instructors?

A flying school that looks after their pilots will more than likely have instructors who enjoy there job and therefore stay a while. Not always true though.

Good luck, avoid the sausage factories.:bored:

[Freedom3]

I started training with a 35 year experienced CFI the switched to a brand new CPL/Instrustor. Chalk and cheese. The CFI was totally bored, gave rote instruction. The newby was brimming with enthusiasm and was totally current. But this will depend on an individual basis.

I have never been to Redcliffe and have no barrow to push but very expert advice recommends Redcliffe Aero Club as the place to learn in the Brisbane area. Better value for money and keen management.

[Ando1Bar]

They are required to construct a full syllabus meaning you'll be receiving extremely professional training.

What a load of BULL.
The syllabus required by the beauracrats that monitor RTO's would not know one if it bit them on their arse. A lot of schools have good syllabus that are not RTO's.

As for that means you will be receiving extremely professional training, what planet do you come from. It is the professionalism and experience of the instructor/lecturer/teacher that determines that. Then the student has to apply themselves and take advantage of what is on offer. Simply hanging an RTO shingle out side the door means zero.

All instructors are required to hold Certificate IVs in Training & Assessment (it may be called something different now), meaning you will receive a high standard of instruction

Again what a load of crap.
A few days sitting in a class room with some one else who has done a few days sitting in a class room trying to relay their interpretation of what they remember means nothing, and you only have to do the few days if you can't talk them into RPLing the whole thing.



Yes, a lot of it is beauracratic but if a school is prepared to put in the money and effort surely you'd have to admit they're committed to providing the highest level of flight training possible? (And yes, I know a lot of it is a marketing exercise for the school as well!).

You also need to consider the instructors. If they're prepared to shell out an extra $1000 for the Cert IV, in most cases this will show they're committed to their profession (even if it is not their ultimate goal).

Your questions for what to ask the school were spot on though and well supported by White Wagon. However, like what Freedom3 says, age or time in the industry has nothing to do with the quality of an instructor. Sure, avoid the young instructors who don't care for instructing and are only doing it for the hours, but don't avoid young/fresh instructors as a rule. Most are fantastic and they are the future of our industry - support them!

[RENURPP]

I agree 100% with the fact that age or experience is not the determining factor in regards to good or bad instructors.

I would still ask the question and see what the response is, as I said there may not be a correct response, the way the questions are answered says heaps about their attitude to you.
Re the RTO business, I don't see it as a bad thing at all.
I left instructing around 15 yrs ago, how ever I like to think I will get back to it one day. If I did RTO status would be a consideration.
It is good for marketing, there are finacial rewards from govt departments like DEET, and also allows you to teach other accredited courses. Being an RTO DOES NOT make it a better place to learn.
As for the $1000, well maybe your right. How ever consider what guys will do to get a job these days. just look at any post involving Jet* and you will see that spending $1000 for a cert IV doesn't rate. Guys are fighting with each other to hand over $30k + to get some one elses job these days. It does not make them more commited.
My other half teaches that Cert IV stuff at the uni up here, which is what I base my info on and all I can say is I wouldn't waste my time with it.

[engine room]

Thanks for that list of questions! There are some good ones in there that I didn't think to ask.

[engine room]

Does everyone think that approximately $1000 would cover the landings for a commercial licence based on $19.50 per landing in the trainer?

[dude65]

Ogs

I reckon it would come close.

You may want to have a think about all the costs associated with getting your CPL. Complete set of charts every 6 months, subscription to AIP,medicals,licencing,security checks,textbooks,theory courses if you need them. The list goes on and on. If you can try and save $1000 on landing fees ,plus $10 or $20 per hour on the actual hire of an aircraft ,then you're well ahead.

It's almost to the point where the hourly hire of the aircraft is the cheap part.

[suspicious]

Ogs.
your original query was regarding flying schools around Brissie.
If you are even remotely still considering Arena, go here -->http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=123160
It's an older thread but these slimy leopards will never change thier spots...:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

[TinDriver]

Suspicious....I think you might be wrong old chap about the "changing of spots". Well maybe not spots, but didn't they change their colour scheme with a splash of black, pink and white thrown over 4 or so aircraft? And a few scribbles here and there?

Whilst I think vandalism is for low life idiot's with nothing better to do, in AA's case, it certainly seemed like a stunt pulled by an unhappy customer.

[Ando1Bar]

Hmmm...that's a story I never heard - tell me more!

[TinDriver]

Ando....................Inbound PM:ok:

[THE CONTRACTOR]

OGs, Your best bet is to front up at all the above mentioned places and see how your treated from the front door to the back. You will soon find a place that suits you and you will be able to disregard some of the comments here or maybe verify some. I know Captains, FO's and SO's that have come from every flying school at Archerfield. So do your homework, after all it is you who is after a service, ie paying the money. Don;t let anyone here put you off a flying school where you get treated well.
Also don't let them tell you that once you complete your training you'll be on your way and will have the skills for your first job. No one of them will give you that, it's a hard road and you have to motivate yourself to be succesfull at this game. They will train you as per the syllabus and send ya packing.

[engine room]

Thanks to all for your thoughts and advice!

[Woomera]

So you have the advice you need. It's time you made your own decisions.