No Asic = No Fly !!!! What a joke !

[Mr Fysh]

Hi all !

I recieved a letter today as im sure the rest of you did, stating the usual ASIC requirements which we all know about. I just thought id give some people a heads up, who werent aware that after December 31st last year, if you hold a CASA issued flight crew licence and are actively flying into RPT secure airfields and do not have an ASIC and have not applied for an ASIC you are setting yourself up for a $2200 fine !!!

Just wondering what the rest of you feel about this as i somewhat feel that it is CASA's responsibility to not enforce this rule unless they get their act together and have a faster turnaround time, than 2 months for the process to be completed.

I also rang the hotline for CASA in the ASIC issuing deptartment (1300 737 032) and asked of my personal situation. I did apply for an ASIC after 31st December 2005 (about a week ago) and because i missed the cut off time of 31st December I have not been granted an extention till the 31st March 2006 and was basically told that I could not continue on with my job flying into and out of secure RPT carrying airports untill i have recieved my ASIC (About 6 weeks away at least). However if I had my application in 2 days earlier i would have been granted an extention of 3 more months. Just to let you know, yes this is my fault, as i am living in far north Queensland and my mail is being sent to my home address in another state and when i returned home for Xmas, i only recieved the application then and could not get it in by the deadline !!! So CASA basically told me that I am not to fly or I run the risk of a $550 fine.

Wake up Casa and do something about this mess !!! Do they really expect us to loose our jobs over these stupid new regulations ???

Interested in any other thoughts and comments

Cheers........................ FYSH !!! :ok:

[185skywagon]

Fysh,
I have been gnashing teeth about this on the following thread.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=196883&page=2

[turbantime]

The letter states that you're up for the $2200 fine if you haven't applied for the security checks after 31 Dec 05 and proceed to these airports.

The extension is for people that have applied before last year but don't need to display an ASIC until 31 Mar 06.

Yet again the wording from a CASA document is ambiguous. In my opinion you can still fly into those airports mentioned in the letter as long as you've applied.

What I would do in your case is make a copy of the security checks document and carry it with you as proof that you've got your application submitted. I personally would even go down to the local police station and have them certified as proof of original.

[rmcdonal]

Its going to take CASA 6 weeks just to do the checks and fill out there paperwork, what makes you think anyone has even organised to have security at the airports? If DOTARS has anything to do with it.
Terrorists here is a hint, Send in an application and just tell the security cop that your waiting for it to comeback. :yuk:
I love this :mad:

[Capt Fathom]

Interesting...can't wait for this year's Birdsville races! What a crock!

[gaunty]

You guys just dont get it do you:mad:

The requirement was announced by the Minister March 2005, nine months before, it was hardly a surprise in December.

I see you work for VB.
So tell me they haven't been reminding you.

Tell me you never watch the news or read the papers and have been on holidays on the planet Mars for the last 12 months and I might take a different view.

The Ministers announced before Christmas and it was reported widely that there would be an "amnesty" until the 31st March 2006 as long as you had sent your application before 31/12/2005.
This announcement was the result of some very hard work by a number of people including CASA to get the Government to understand that it was their original deadline and it was not achievable with the current resources. Hence the 90 day extension.

It was made perfectly clear that if you did not apply within the time stated you would be denied any latitude.

How hard is that:mad:

It is NOT news that you will be fined.

Get with the programme mate:sad: you are part of the problem not part of the solution.

[Gyro drifter]

Comon Gaunty,

Mate pull your head out of you bum and realise that everyone's situations is different. Im in the same boat as Mr Fysh and yes i realise its partly my fault. What we are trying to say is how can CASA take 3 months to produce a new licence. I realise its to do with other agencies but comon, how about some thinking before they get all excited about laying down some bullcrap deadline.

The hotline is a joke... I spent 20 minutes on hold before I got thru and even then I didnt feel as if I got answers to many of my questions.

I say .... move the pencil pushing bludgers out of the CASA office and get them helping with sorting this mess out.

Gyro

[Ash767]

Hi all

I have not flown for a while however I suppose I had better apply for a card.

I would be doing most of my flying in country airports, so I would be looking at getting an AVID. What happens though, if I want to fly into YSCB from my home of YWOLL (this would be on an extremely infrequent basis). Do I need an ASIC card or would the AVID be enough for the limited visits?

I wonder if all the boat owners in Australia have to get a card as well, one of them could easily cause havoc in Sydney Harbour!

Ash

[DeltaSix]

They are putting people's jobs on the line here. They can at least give you a provisional ID like the medical when you renew it.

Are the FAC people enforcing this to be worn or is it the flying clubs and operators that do this ?.... if it is then they could possibly ground some if not most of their students and pilots/clients. Jobs and income on the line.

Does that mean that if I don't have an AVID, I can't even enter the airport complex even if I have to renew my instrument rating using the sim ?
Bad news for the schools then.

Also, I know of some ex-pats coming back to renew their ratings or do some occasional flying. Looks like the aero clubs will miss out again because these guys don't have ASIC. CASA have not just put schools in the hardship by cutting down intake of overseas students but now even restricting more people to do flying. The U.S. does not even do this and they suffered more in 9/11.

This has got to stop. A lot of flying schools are struggling as it is. They will kill GA. I wonder what's next on their list ? :{

[Freedom3]

It's no doubt all been said before but has there ever been a bigger, more ludicrous, more useless mess that the ASIC/picture licence thing.

I would love to know where the blame ends, whether the morons planning it been fired and what will be the eventual waste of taxpayers' money.

I guess this is largely a GA issue so who cares?

[185skywagon]

Start annoying your local member, as well as Truss. make sure you can document some of the things you think are wrong with the system.
Join an industry organisation, RAAA, AOPA etc. regardless of what you think, they will have more clout than you, the individual.
Finally, make sure you have some idea of what needs to be done, to fix all this up.

It is a mess.

[Freedom3]

In the early days of the DOTARS wheel lock nonsense I wrote asking would they be requiring wheel locks on all white vans as these seem very popular bomb delivery vehicles with terrists. The answer was that there are too many white vans and that this would be impossible.

But therein lies the answer. We can't stop the white vans or the fertisiser sale but we do have a list of all aircraft owners and pilots and we have the means to control them. Great idea let's get wheel locks and photo ID - in fact two, almost identical IDs.

Would any of this had it been in place have stopped the 9/11 disaster? No.

But at least we are seen to be doing something.

I suspect that DOTARS has shown the major incompetence here but let's blame CASA as well.

[185skywagon]

From ABC regional last week. My responses to his statements in Italics.
These were emailed to Truss' office and also to Sen Brett Mason.
Mr Truss says that despite the expense and inconvenience, issuing new security identification cards will safeguard the travelling public.
Will you please tell me how these ASIC cards will "safeguard" the travelling public???? I definitley want an answer to this as this is what your whole argument has been based on, and I believe it is flawed.
This is the main point I think we could get them on.The Minister says he is disappointed that light aircraft operators are not more understanding.

"We can't assume that there is no risk associated with the use of small aircraft sourced from country areas
This is flawed. You could easily say "we can't assume that there is a risk......."

What is the risk??? Is it a Light aircraft flying into a building?? Or causing problems for an RPT Plane?? Is it pie in the sky?? This is also something they haven't identified. What is the risk, and has it been scientifically arrived at??
and any pilots association that is prepared to

give a categorical guarantee that there would never be an incident involving their members or their aircraft is obviously flying in the face of reality," he said.
This assumes that we are all bad fellows, us along with farmers and muslims. All minority groups.

Do you realise that you would have no power to stop an aircraft that departed, say Watts Bridge, near Amberley, from legally tracking into controlled airspace and (if this what you blokes are worried about) causing your unspecifed aviation risk. No ASIC card required if it is on a one way trip!!! How would an ASIC card stop this. How?

You can also now get on an RPT in Brisbane without howing any ID, courtesy of the new check-in terminals. How much of a risk is that???

I haven't had a reply as yet.
I hold an ASIC.

[apache]

You can also now get on an RPT in Brisbane without howing any ID, courtesy of the new check-in terminals. How much of a risk is that???

I haven't had a reply as yet.
I hold an ASIC.

Don't hold yer breath either waiting for any answer, let alone one that makes sense.
I emailed Mr Truss a few months ago about the same question. The response I got was that "we believe that it is up to industry to decide their level of security......."(or words to that effect.) ie "We asked Qantas/Virgin. They told us that it saves them a LOT of money to have the self check in kiosks, and we were told to stop asking these sorts of questions. we did!"

A few more points :
None of the terrorists had ID cards.
None of the terrorists held pilots' licences


good luck getting an(sensible) answer out of Truss, or his department.

[185skywagon]

I can only try.....:{.
"we believe that it is up to industry to decide their level of security......
Why couldn't they leave how we manage our security, up to us??

[Chimbu chuckles]

They told us that it saves them a LOT of money to have the self check in kiosks, and we were told to stop asking these sorts of questions. we did!"

And therein the true value of the morons running this country....including the opposition morons.

If that statement doesn't show the lie that they are 'concerned' about public safety NOTHING does!

QF/VB want to save money so ignore the very demographic that caused 911 and every other hijacking in the history of hijacking aircraft....passengers!!!

Australia is fast becoming a FECKED UNIT!!!

[Zhaadum]

ASIC.

Load of garbage . If you check the letter mentioned carefully, it says pilots who require FREQUENT ACCESS to the secure areas of these airports. So if you are flying a one off charter to an airport listed in Appendix A or B you DO NOT REQUIRE an ASIC.

Use DOTARS and CASA's words agaist them.

Cheers!
Z.

Editted for swearing...not allowed....unless thinly veiled and funny as ****:ok:

[Freedom3]

We Australians are among the most compliant people on earth. Sadly.

Do Americans have aircraft wheel locks? No.

Do Americans have speed cameras? No.

Do Kiwis have wheel locks? I don't think so.

Etc. etc.

[DeltaSix]

So, they don't check the passengers but checks the pilots that fly them.
Geezzz..... Australia is in serious trouble.

Good one Zhaadum...... he-he-he, I'll use that if I forget my ASIC one of these days.

So, WHAT ON EARTH CAN WE DO ? Are we at the mercy of these morons running the show ?

Maybe we should launch a class action against them.


D6

[farrari]

It is a joke, GA is dead and these bimbos in CASA should all be sacked.It's all right for them setting on their 100,00 dollar pay packets, but one day it will all catch up with them, however to late for GA.Why the hell doesn't the GOVT encourage GA in this country.

[Victa Bravo]

The Govt don't encourage GA in this country because they can't make any money out of us. Our votes come at a too higher cost for them to justify keeping us happy.

Remember the good times people cause the industy will be gone within 10 years.

VB
:(

[185skywagon]

It is a joke, GA is dead and these bimbos in CASA should all be sacked.It's all right for them setting on their 100,00 dollar pay packets, but one day it will all catch up with them, however to late for GA.Why the hell doesn't the GOVT encourage GA in this country.
The particular problem that Fysh is having, is not CASA's fault, it is the consultation that DOTARS (We must do something, This is something, therfore this is good.)
have not done, that is the problem. Although, he must have been under a very shady tree up north, to not find out about all of this.
Stop railing against the system and start complaining further up the chain with constructive criticism. Start with Truss and your local member, forthwith!

[Sunfish]

I got my request in before 31 December and they appear to have debited my credit card. Exactly what proof do I need to carry?

[Arm out the window]

Points by Gaunty etc. noted, but in Fysh's defence, the first official notification I got from any source was the package of application papers that came in the first couple of weeks of November.
I had already applied before then, but only because of the stuff I was reading on Pprune!
Press releases are all fine, but to not directly mail everyone a clear directive back in March or so is not good enough.
To add insult to injury, some of the press I've seen has been implying that it's the tardy pilots who are at fault.

[TLAW]

I got my request in before 31 December and they appear to have debited my credit card. Exactly what proof do I need to carry?

And me. Is that, strictly speaking, legal? Can you charge someone for a service you haven't actually provided, even if you intend to?

[AerocatS2A]

And me. Is that, strictly speaking, legal? Can you charge someone for a service you haven't actually provided, even if you intend to?

Of course. When do you pay for your airline tickets when you travel, at the time of booking, or after you get to the destination?

[Zhaadum]

Woomera,
Geez, saying BS is swearing? Crikey, buggar, shiver me timbers and I didnt even say FARK! :O
Z. :ok:

[Clare Prop]

"and any pilots association that is prepared to give a categorical guarantee that there would never be an incident involving their members or their aircraft is obviously flying in the face of reality," he said. "

so...why are the ultralight folks exempt from this? Has the RAA given a "catagorical guarantee"?:confused:

Good news is it seems CASA have let the field offices go back to doing the licensng stuff, so that they can use all of their resources in Canberra doing the security checks. I understand there are THREE of these "resources"!

[BalusKaptan]

So, the thrust of the matter is.....no ASIC no Fly. well not quite!
As a holder of an Australian ATP I gather I cannot fly into most Australian airports without an ASIC however as I currently reside o/s I haven't yet applied for one because at considerable cost it only lasts 2 years and must then be renewed also at great cost and I'm not expecting to reside in OZ within the 2 years. But wait a minute, I reqularly fly into Australian airports and will be continuing to do so but no ASIC card! Do the powers that be consider I would be more of a risk with just me and/or a few pax on a private flight as opposed to all the unknowns I can fit on the 74?

IMHO nothing more than an empire building, money grabing exercise.

In light of the London bombings I'm readily awaiting the legislation requiring all public bus and train pax to have issued (at their own expense) the equivalent to the ASIC before they are allowed to enter any bus or train station!

[gunshy67]

Dear Mr Gaunty,

Fair go old chap.

Consdier the management and implemenation of the whole new security "stuff".

The TSA (Transport Security Act) was made effective Dec 04. It mandated compliance with the TSR's (Transport Security Regulations) by Jan 05................howvever they had not been produced.

Various drafts had been done and subsequently there was frantic catch-up attempted but true compliance was totally unachievable in the time frame required.

Then came the "chock lock". Simply put, it made an aircraft non stealable if unattended but no definition of "unattended" is given. Is it unattended for a quick coffee on groundside or for a toilet break? For how long? 1miute? 1 hour? 1 day?

But then CASA issued instructions that work order would be required should throttle locks etc be chsoen as method. Satndards of locakable devices were issues which were also ineffetive for a would aircraft thief.

AND then to those of us who attemted to comply with the ASIC requirements back in Feb 2005 consier the follwing:

I tried to get one from Canberra NO. Sydeny NO. Tamworth NO. Port Mcqaurie NO ......DOTARS.........oopsie we have not addressed you people who do not reside airside...............just like the many other 20,000/30,000 pilots in the country.

Would DOTARS issue them. NO that function is delegated to "operators".

So how do i get an ASIC card? We''l get back you but notheing further was received despite repeated requests.

So time goes on. The ASIS card in a nonsense but the background checks aren't and only the most illiterate of computer users would be unable to produce one privately.

Finally, having been intimately involed in Aviation Security mattersfor some decades and having submitted a program in Feb 05 for approval, our company is still waiting for a response, despite the fact that the program submitted has been described as far-reaching and professional.

Please Mr Gaunty a little tolerance, or perhaps an awareness of the history of some of these proposals

Finally, it is not CASA's fault that they have been given the job. They have really been given the "poisoned chalice" by DOTARS in having to try to achieve an impossible goal...........as for the fine..........talk to DOTARS.

IAnd I am waiting for the day I am accosted air side without my ASIC. I have the TV stations number programmed into my mobile.

Best wishes

Gunshy67

[flopter]

All this talk about having an ASIC is all over the forum in relation to not being permited to fly into the 153 designated airports after 31st of Dec 05..
But what's this bit on the end of the letter I just got from DOTARS..

After 31st December 2005 it is also an offence, with a maximum penalty of 20 penalty units ($2,200) for each breach, if you fly an aircraft in Australian Territory using a CASA issued flight crew licence or special pilot licence without having applied for an aviation security status check....(unless you have made application for or hold an AVID/ASIC etc etc) .
So forget the odd security controlled airport..those who haven't applied for or hold a security check (AVID/ASIC) , it appears you are now not allowed to fly in Australian airspace after 31st Dec 2005..period.
So be sure to hand in your licenses you naughty terrorist pilots! :E

[Grivation]

Mr Fysh - if you really are a 737 driver with VB (as your profile would suggest) then you will already have a VB issued ASIC attached to your shirt.

PS - I didn't realise they had a NQ base?

[Victa Bravo]

Good one Gunshy67!!

I work in the media and can't wait to be accosted airside by some gun-ho wanna-be security thug at some sleepy hollow of a town such as Taree.

My application is in and if my word isn't good enough that I've applied for this little piece of political plastic then my colleagues would love nothing more than to highlight some bureaucratic bungling in prime time.

I can see the beginning of a story right here.

Cessna 182 pilot notices an oil pressure gauge starting to rise. Might become a problem, may just be a faulty gauge. Better land ASAP.. Nearest strip???? Oh no I don't have my magic pass issued yet!!! Can't go to the nearest; have to push on to another strip 1/2 hour away.

If things go pear shaped your going to have a great lead story on your hands!!!

Come on…. I dare you to ask me where my ASIC is MR Plod!!!

VB

[gaunty]

Mr Gunshy67

Point taken.

I am way closer to whats happe ning than you imagine.:ok:

You got the "poisoned chalice" thing right but it was DOTARS to whom it was handed by the Government to implement the Act across ALL transport sectors, the aviation sector as usual being the most visible.

Yes it has been a bit of a trial and the deadline totally impractical even were the implementation not so fraught.

However goodwill and a lot of proactive hard work from CASA and many others produced a recognition by the Minister that there was a problem in execution and hence the "amnesty" provided you had applied.

I know the people directly involved, I spent an hour over some QF Chivas :} in the QF Club with them the day or so after the announcement before Christmas, whilst we were waiting for flights. They are delightful people and concerned as you with the problems.
When they tell me that it is the number of different Departments including ASIO involvment and the regulatory machinery and communication issues, not the lack of goodwill between them that divides and hampers the process. I believe them.
When they tell me that they are overwhelmed by the numbers and the complexity of task given them by Governement, the mix and nature of Australian RPT services and multiuser airports, I know from personal; experience exactly of which they speak.

They were given a mammoth task on top of their normal remit without the funds nor the people to execute it.
Why would anybody be surprised that there was a bit of argy bargy getting to the get go.

I can assure you they were moving as fast as the situation changed and their consultation with industry, often daily, revealed holes in the original plan.

Plans are only plans and needs must change as the theatre of operation changes and unthought of issues arise out of it.

The issue time WAS eventually transmitted to and recognised by the Minister.

He took appropriate action, which would have required a sign off by the PM.

Simply lodge the appropriate action before the 31st Dec OR ELSE.

How hard is that.

Think about it before you "stick it' to Mr Plod or the 10 second grab on the TV news.

It's not Mr Plods fault, he is simply doing his job. The TV news ?? is just as likely to side with the Govt as they are with the "terrorist". NO problems if you have done yours.

Besides we are all in this together so why don't you all try to help each other out instead of rattling sabres.

Can I end with a short personal anecdote.

We arrive at a Capital City airport FBO in an N registered aircraft flown by a US crew, on a sales demo, nobody has an ASIC with them (having come from a secondary airport) including the crew, CBs and raining cats and dogs, it is late and dark, the FBO is closed, the pilot/manager of the FBO who has an ASIC and was to escort the potential owner around and from the demo aircraft was delayed orbiting due wx for an approach in a following aircraft. We disembark in a group for a walk around the aircraft and to show the owner the baggage hole and other salient bits. Starts to go tropical downpour, we all head back for the cabin not noticing that the owner had gone in the opposite direction to stand under an awning at the front of the FBO. It goes on, but enter "the security guy" sees "foreign aircraft" guys in black suits (some big=me) milling around with bags, presses the "big red button" :E on his handset, which sends a message something equivalent to "big trouble in River City". ALL the way to Canberra :{. Flashing lights appear from everywhere.
We discover there are something like 5 separate and armed agencies on the Airport capable of arresting us and/or shooting us down like the terrorist dogs we were.:)

I mean WE were clearly in the wrong.:ok: the security guy WAS doing his job. Amended protocols developed.

Some personal intervention, goodwill and common sense prevailed, but there was a real chance for a while that we, including the owner, were going to become guests of HM Govt .

Lesson learned and another issue revealed to DOTARS about the day to day.

And yes the "potential owner" will be buying an aircraft, question remains as he is not a pilot nor has he any capacity beyond a passenger will he be able to get an ASIC or will he be captive to his crew whilst airside.

[185skywagon]

Gaunty,
If you as close as you say you are, ask Paul Trottman (adviser to the minister)and a few others, why we are being singled out for treatment, and why they won't elaborate on what sort of risk we are. Also, why haven't Truckies, Boaties and the RAA(ultralights etc) been subject to the same treatment?
Where was the consultation? The risk assessment paper that this is based on, did not consult anyone other than airline types as far as I can ascertain.
Please enlighten me!

[bigfella5]

Sept 11 happened over 5 years ago...............nothing happened here since..........why the fark do we have to go through this stupid process any longer???!!!!........it is a pointless exercise and nothing more than a scare mongering process initiated by morons, executed by incompetents and backed up by by small willied individuals in the population who would be far more useful and no doubt happier employed as proof readers by whatever publishing house that is responsible for the SAS Survival Guide:E :E :E
Here endeth the rant...nurse more beer please
PS....Gaunty....stop associating with bureaucrats...you'll get a reputation:ok:

[AerocatS2A]

Sept 11 happened over 5 years ago...............nothing happened here since..........why the fark do we have to go through this stupid process any longer?

Yes. Besides, do you really think that the type of people who flew the B767s into the Towers wouldn't be able to get an ASIC if they needed one? It might not be a real one, but it would be real enough to get by any airport security.

It's a bit like worrying about illegal immigrants and terrorism. Hello! The Sept 11 guys were all in the USA legally.

All any of this does is make it more difficult for Joe Average Pilot to do their job.

Edited to add paragraph breaks that the preview function seemed to have removed.

[the wizard of auz]

Well said Bigfella5. my thoughts excatly. biggest friggen load of crap the govmint ever spewed.

[one25six]

RAA are subject to the same crap.

But hey, I didn't vote for the pretend government of facists.

[gaunty]

185skywagon

No need to ask because you are NOT being singled out for treatment.

EVERY form of transport including truckies and boaties AND the RAA is/has been assessed for risk, by the people who understand risk assessment in the transport milieu.

Discussion papers? risk assessment papers? c'mon, why dont we just set up a help line for the bad guys to find out where and what we are going to target next.

bigfella5 mate not even a little bit close, my eldest daughter (highly experienced and multi degreed with Honours) is quite a senior bureaucrat and seconded to a Minister as a departmental adviser, she like the great majority that I know are consummate, dedicated and committed professionals in the service of the public. :cool:

AerocatS2A makes a compelling point, but it is not a justification for sitting on our hands.:ugh:

You do what you can and try to stay in front of the game the terrorists play.

Events have shown that whilst it is simply not possible to second guess every possible scenario, if you close off the really obvious ones, you are as far as you can get in concentrating your resources on where the intelligence tells you the localised action is likely.

Why is everybody so paranoid about this subject?? and why are you behaving as if the Govt and their anti-terrorist policies are aimed at YOU personally.
I suspect if it wasn't this it would be something else you'd be complaining about. One minute it is the CASA regs, another it is the Govt trying to "kill GA" then it is Airservices or CASA trying to do you in. Get a life will ya.

Before you go to sleep tonight, just check under your bed for reds, I'd be surprised if you find any, but as the Brits have found, you never know where you are going to find the bad guys.

Saw a photograph in the local rag the other day of "Asian ornamental martial arts weapons" confiscated by Customs, supposedly being imported for "genuine collectors".
Very very scary stuff and you can only imagine what, if anything, is going through the minds of the collectors.
The importers were doing the usual whining about Govt interference with their "rights". :rolleyes: :mad:

That they were exactly the same sort of weapons used recently in a truly sickeningly vicious gang attack is apparently a coincidence.:{ There are parts of every city in Australia that are definitely "no go zones" at night and entered with caution during the day. It never used to be like this.

A close friend is the Director of Security for a large Multinational, he spends his life visiting the companies sites around the world, there is not one that does not have a definable threat and this is for a company that provides significant employment, social benefits and investment to the area.

They have not given up, they will try again, we have been, with many other countries specifically targeted.

Lets get rational shall we.:ok:

[Dry_Twotter]

I received a letter from casa (im sure many did) saying something along the lines of "due to the overwhelming demand for ASICs, an extension to the deadline will be administered"
hang on a second
Casa know how many freagin pilots there are dont they? Or has there been a extreme influx of expats all at once?
WTF?
Woomera - can you please set up a poll on the topic so we have some evidence to send to DOTARS
I also reiterate what was said above - do you really think an ASIC card will stop a fan belt head terrorist from breaking though a high security, impenetrable GA apron gate? ie like the dungeon doors at archerfield. My 6 month old labrador managed to get past the deterrent on the gate - now he faces up to 6 month imprisonment or a $20,000 fine
No more dog food for him.

[gunshy67]

Dear Mr Gaunty,

Apologies for my typing (spelling). I can't do that stuff properly, truly!

A very sympathetic and tolerant response I note to my post. Good work. I hope you keep it that way and not be biased against those you suggest who should "get real".

Your contacts are no doubt nice people but how effective? Being "good blokes" is what we all should be, kind thoughtful and patient and competent in out job.

BUT................ did the Minister have correct advice? Did the senior management have the competence to accept such a task without complaint?

Where was the real aim identified. The "where are we now" ......."where do we want to be".......and then do the what is required and what is the time frame to do it?

Was that ever addressed . I doubt it

In my own time as a senior exec in a large avaition organisation............the worst information passed up the line is "yes sir". Soon a chasm will open and some will fall into it.

All I am saying is the aim of security is for the country

The policies applied to the legislation, the time scale, details, implementation, management and subsequent legislative threats do nothing to achieve this aim..............a secure aviation indstry.

And the turf war still remains...........CASA is not reponsible for security in avaition. That is left to DOTARS. But where does it start and end for each....At the check-in desk?

But the sad result is what you see in this forum. The industry, certainly the GA and regional areas of industy think it is a joke and i find it very hard not to agree.

So I expect the "baseball bats" will soon be seen on airports to ensure compliance. MMMMMMmmmmmmmm. I wonder if reality will be seen by those who have the reponsibility.

Best wishes.

Gunshy 67

[Biggles_in_Oz]

Gaunty. Why is everybody so paranoid about this subject?? and why are you behaving as if the Govt and their anti-terrorist policies are aimed at YOU personally.From my perspective, those policies are aimed directly at me. They directly affect where I can and cannot travel to.
Those policies also imply that I am an evil, dangerous, nasty and untrustworthy person who must be checked at least every two years to see if I have deviated from the true path.

I know that there are evil people in the world who wish to do me grevious harm, but why is the government picking-on farmers, pilots and mariners ? Why not background check all people who operate ground vehicles ?

I fear that our politicians and bureaucrats are herding us towards a "show me your papers, comrade" system where your fate is decided by secret and unaccountable organisations.
The east-German Stasi police-state system eventually failed, but it created misery and grief for millions before it did.

[sage]

:confused: Q. Sept 11 happened over 5 years ago.........................why the fark do we have to go through this stupid process any longer???!!!!........it is a pointless exercise and nothing more than a scare mongering process. (Saliently edited and paraphrased) :ok:

:cool: A. Because manipulating people's fear through forced participation in the illusion of a faceless threat perpetuates belief in the mythology of those whose interest it serves. :eek: :ugh:

Yes, I know. More and more people have access to politically incorrrect information these days. Some of us even have the impudence to talk about it. :p

[Arm out the window]

Not that I like extra hoops to jump through, but aeroplanes are such a convenient way to do a lot of damage, even with no explosives on board, that if you're going to put in any security measures at all, then aiming them at pilots is reasonable, as opposed to ground vehicle drivers etc.

[Biggles_in_Oz]

Arm out the window Whaaat ??

In march 2005 there were about 13,920,000 road vehicles in Australia, of which about 10,890,000 were passenger vehicles and 2,030,000 were light commercial types. http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/Lookup/06D0E28CD6E66B8ACA2568A900139408

Somewhere around 65,000 to 80,000 new automobiles are sold in Australia every month. http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/[email protected]/1020492cfcd63696ca2568a1002477b5/44f944a6e8b27f32ca256fea0004eaad!OpenDocument

About 85,000 vehicles are stolen every year. http://www.carsafe.com.au

Contrast that with the 12,000 or so Australian registered aircraft. http://www.casa.gov.au/casadata/register/graph.htm

Any deliberate destruction that an aircraft can do, can also be done much more cheaply, conveniently, secretly and destructively by a car or truck, but it's effing difficult (and political suicide) to try and screen all the people who can use cars and trucks, therefore our glorious government picks the easier aviation and maritime targets.

I can only think of one 'convenient' advantage that an aircraft has over a terrestrial vehicle when used to wreak havoc.

[Sunfish]

Just received a letter from CASA telling me that my application was received by the due date (31 Dec) and to keep the letter handy as proof of submission, and hence exemption. Qantas is apparently doing the ASIC distribution for CASA.

[Arm out the window]

Biggles, are you saying they could have done the Sep 11 bizzo with a truck?

[AerocatS2A]

Biggles, are you saying they could have done the Sep 11 bizzo with a truck?

Well, you could do a pretty good job with a couple of truckloads of explosives parked in an underground carpark.

[the wizard of auz]

And certainly less effectively with a C172, C441, Baron, Ect. but this is the sector of industry that will be effected by this absolute rubbish the most.
Typical knee jerk, "seen to be doing something" political, money grubbing, pointless and ineffectual rubbish. The worst the industry has had to deal with to date.

I also wonder why, after 13 years of flying, I have to suddenly prove to the government that I am not a terrorist.
All this user pay rubbish that is going on should work both ways too, I reckon. I'm not the user of the security check, but I am compelled to pay for it.............W%$*#rs.
And, to top it all off, for whatever reasons, I never managed to get all my application rubbish into the system on time. so do I incure the wrath of CASA (because it is their amended regulations that prevent me from flying, by threatening me with monetary penalties) and carry on flying, or close my small aviation business and go onto the dole to support my family, and sell my house that I can't pay the mortgage on because of this sh1t?.
How anyone can honestly believe this crap is going to benifit the general population one iota is almost beyond belief.
Can anyone put forward any sort of believable case for this madness?. Was industry ever consulted on these moves?. Is there any credable evidence....... anywhere, that any terrorist organisation have shown any interest in using light aircraft in australia to further their cause?. Is there any evidence that terrorist organisations have used aircraft in Australia in the past?. there is absolutly no evidence to support any of this crap at all.
The security side of this whole pathetic exercise is unatainable to the degree that makes it workable. Does anyone really believe a terrorist will take the trouble to get a licence, then bluff his way through the security to achieve his objective?. whats to stop a bad guy learning the basics from a mate in say......... west africa, then stepping over the knee high fence at Kalgoorlie, then jumping into any one of the aircraft there and sailing off into the sunset (provided he has a NVFR rating of course) and doing his evil work?.
Its a political exercise to look good to the unknowing sheep.

[bigfella5]

Gaunty,
These bloody measures ARE aimed at me.......ARE an invasion of my farkin' privacy.......ARE a complete and utter waste of time.......ARE NOT based on any real facts (WMDs in Iraq sound familiar,children overboard et al?)...ARE nothing more than a cheap and cynical grab for long term power by a bunch of silly buggers! (silly buggers as in Spike Milligans Hitler, My part in his downfall. quote "here in North Africa we are all playing silly buggers!")
There are no reasons for these measures to be put in place.
I put it to you Gaunty to prove to us why these bloody silly measures are needed without resorting to phrases like "privileged information,secrecy act,need to know so on and so forth. I wait with anticipation.............shiver!
:E

[the wizard of auz]

Actually Gazza, I would be interested in hearing your reply to Bigfella5 as well.

[Mr Fysh]

Gday again all !!!

Very interesting input here! The majority as i suspected are in agreeance with my post. Well done bigfella5, Gaunty I also wait in anticipation, for your reply. How can you defend this issue and all the fukcing hassel it brings to us as every day pilots. What an absolute load of crap!! :mad: :yuk:

Cheers guys

Fysh

[Biggles_in_Oz]

Arm
I'm astonished that you aren't aware of the many car and truck bombs which have been used since Beirut in the 80's, and continuing on to the present day in Iraq !

Do a Google and you will find many more examples than just the following ;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1338000/1338354.stm
http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0001454.html

[Arm out the window]

I am aware of the dangers of car and truck bombs, of course, but I think that the ability of an aircraft to easily get to a sensitive area and do very public damage even without explosives on board puts them in a different category of risk.
Only an opinion.

[185skywagon]

Gaunty,
You don't work for the Syrius Cybernetics Corporation, do you?? Apologies to Douglas Adams(RIP).:E
I do take this personally, when various spokesmen/women for the Dept deliver very condescending media grabs, weekly.
I am a part of an Type Club, whose membership numbers around 65 out of a possible 120 aircraft. Less than 1/3 of the fleet have transferred to part 47 regs. Just how many do you think will have complied with the security checks?
Very few, I suspect. ( not for want of urging from me)Our members are about half urban and half rural.
A lot of the members are the sort of fliers who don't go anywhere much, except an annual trip to catch up with friends or a fishing trip up north.

These blokes may as well drop their licences and allow deregistration of their craft, and keep flying out here. They would be unlikely to be caught.

Ps: I suspect a lot of people have someone in the civil or public service. I also have a sister who is a DG.

[DeltaSix]

Arm out the Window, bud, you have to realize that even if the ASIC checks were done, what's stopping someone changing his/her perspective about the whole world and become suicidal tommorrow getting on a lear jet or an A380 and smashing it into Canberra or any major capital cities.

If I was gonna inflict maximum damage, I'd park a white van fully laden with C4, dynamites and other explosives into several Westfields carpark on a Thursday night or on a Saturday. NO ASIC NEEDED. Will kill at least 3,000 people in one day. Why not screen all the vans coming into fully packed shopping centres then ?

WHAT WE NEED IS MORE FUNDING SO THAT THE AFP CAN GET MORE AGENTS TO LOOK OUT FOR SLEEPER CELLS.

The terrorist were not pilots, THE PILOTS WERE KILLED FIRST REMEMBER ?
So, why are we the target of the checks ?

[2B1ASK1]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/australia/qld/summer/200601/s1547948.htm

Security regime may prompt pilots to seek Senate spots
The Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association is considering standing Senate candidates at the next federal election, as anger grows among regional pilots over increased security checks.

A Government letter has been circulated among members of the association, saying that anyone who flies without first completing new anti-terrorism security clearance checks is committing an offence.

The association's vice-president, Andrew Kerans, believes the measures will ground about 1,500 pilots.

He estimates 30 per cent of his regional members are yet to apply for new security ID cards.

Mr Kerans estimates more than 1,000 regional Queensland pilots are now technically grounded because they have not applied for the ID cards.

"If you think the majority of those will be out bush where aviation is a daily part of life, it could cause a major disturbance in rural Australia," he said.

Federal Transport Department spokeswoman Vicki Dickman says if pilots have not applied for the ID cards they cannot fly.

"No, you should have had your background check well and truly completed by December 31st," she said.

Mr Kerans says the association is now considering fielding federal Senate candidates to draw preferences away from the National party.

[Obiwan]

I am aware of the dangers of car and truck bombs, of course, but I think that the ability of an aircraft to easily get to a sensitive area and do very public damage even without explosives on board puts them in a different category of risk.
Only an opinion.
Yes, we can't forget the potentially destructive force of a small Cessna slamming in to an office building. 9/11 would pale in insignificane compared to this

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/01/06/tampa.crash/story.tampa.plane.jpg
Now - compare this to what a van loaded with explosive would do...

[rmcdonal]

Delta 6, not to sure how easy it would be to get a hold of a van load of C4 (the guys that handle that stuff get background checked for sure :rolleyes:), But a Van filed with ANFO.... now thats a bit easier to come by.
I don't think the damage caused by any GA aircraft is going to be enough to inflict any major harm, but a 767 caries a LOT of fuel, bit more then a fuel truck me thinks, and we all know what that can do.
BTW the bomb happy world tried once before to level the twin towers with a van full of bang in the underground car park http://www.emporis.com/en/bu/sk/wt/up/cb/
But it didn't have the desired results, the second attempt however using an aircraft....:{
BTW am still waiting on my ASIC and find that having to pay for it adds salt to the injury.
:(

[the wizard of auz]

but the guys weren't pilots that did the damage. people loose that fact in all the BS hype. they were pax. screen the pax, not the pilots.

[sloppyporij]

I also wonder why, after 13 years of flying, I have to suddenly prove to the government that I am not a terrorist.

Easy answer. votes. Like another reply said, the govt want to be seen doing something. As long as the public believe they are safe, they will keep little Johnny in power. Don't forget most of the population don't know the first thing about aviation, so it doesn't matter to the gvernment if what they're implementing is inherently useless.

If an individual is committed enough to be a terrorist, obtaining ASICs, photo licenses, removing padlocks on controls will hardly be an issue.

Scare tactics are extremely useful, mention Al Qaeda and everyone listens. Lets not forget the origins of Al Qaeda, the Mujhedin, and who gave US$300 million to kick off the Mujhedin? Uncle Sam.

Dare I say the real solution to terrorism is for the west to stop treating the Middle East like crap.

In the mean time.....
WHAT WE NEED IS MORE FUNDING SO THAT THE AFP CAN GET MORE AGENTS TO LOOK OUT FOR SLEEPER CELLS.


Sadly, if we wan to keep flying we have to keep jumping through these hoops, no matter how incompetent Sta....I mean Howard is

[tinpis]

Someone was busted this week in Darwhine for having the wrong ID


http://www.ntnews.news.com.au/printpage/0,5942,17847043,00.html

[rmcdonal]

Because there is no way Hardy could get a hold of plane if he wanted one.:ouch:

[the wizard of auz]

do you like the security risk bit on the bottom of the report?.
How does one become a security risk just because you haven't given the theiving government money?.
would a terrorist bother with the fine that has been dished out and then think "oh, I better not steal or blow up and aircraft. I might cop a fine"
What a crock of sh1t.
This government is pathetic and the sheep that are made happy by these inefectual and ill considered rules are just as bad. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[lightwing]

In the middle of September, 2005 I applied for am AVID. In spite of many phone calls to Canberra, the only information about the delay in processing is that there is a large backlog in security processing. CASA will mot give me any estimate on when I shall receive the AVID but has stated that, as my application has been registered, I can fly without it until the end of March, 2006.

However, as I have not yet applied for an ASIC (AUD 95.00). I am not allowed to land at regional airports that have RPT operations. I have been awaiting my AVID before applying for the ASIC but, at this rate of processing, it looks like a long wait is in store.

The whole exercise is an overkill in redtape and the processing has been very badly organised. If the security check is the same for an AVID as an ASIC,why is a seperate application necessary?

[rmcdonal]

Dont be stupid lightwing, you actualy think there could be an easier way of doing this?? :{
:ok:

[P-air]

ive had my application in since febuary last year....still waiting, called today and they say, another couple of months sorry sir....geezzzz

I no longer have an ASIC

[Avgas and Fanta]

I thought it was rather smart how CASA was closed for the last 8 days before the deadline. 2 bad if you had a question about the forms.

[Pseudonymn]

Avgas and Fanta wrote:

I thought it was rather smart how CASA was closed for the last 8 days before the deadline. 2 bad if you had a question about the forms.

A&F, wouldn't you hafta be able to read 'em first? ;) :} ;)

[sailing]

My mate Osama and I were talking about our next operation, we were going to go to Camden, where we wouldn't need an ASIC to get airside, and knock off a 182. Then we'd fly it to a remote property in western NSW, and load it with a fertilizer bomb. From there we were going to fly to Mascot and crash it into a 747 full of SLF at the terminal. It was a great plan, but then we realised the Howard government had us beaten; we'd be fined when our bodies were found on the wrong side of the security screen. DAMN! Back to the drawing board.

Can ANYONE explain how this scenario is prevented by the crap we're being dealt on this non-issue???

[currawong]

Anyone know if the problem extends to those wanting to renew an ASIC?

Understand all the checks are done again at each renewal - are the delays affecting affecting current holders?

[Shitsu_Tonka]

Sailing,

You wouldn't be one of those we read about in the paper who get charged for making jokes at the security check about having a bomb would you?

Posts like your last one just add fuel to the fire stoked up by these security zealots. As stupid a threat as I know you were making, the fools running this scare campaign don't have any sense of humour, and I wouldn't put it past them scanning these forums either.

Judging them on past form, they would probably add it to their list of reasons for legitimising the whole farce - you may want to reconsider it's wisdom in that light.

[Kenneth]

Absolute BS!!! fly for years and years with a LEATHERMAN!!! no problems at all , pick up after pick up from the bays at an international airport. but as soon as you need to go gather the passengers for yourself ...... and meet them in the terminal , you have to go through the metal detectors and are not allowed through with your leatherman which is a lethal weapon!!!! No problems........... said ok not going to let me through.... i will use my ASIC card to go back out to the tarmac (next to the 737's and A330's etc ) and take off my leatherman and leave it on the seat , come back inside and go through security (metal detectors and all) to get upstairs to grab my passengers and get on my merry way! What an absolute JOKE! You (or if you r lucky your employer) pays a great deal of money to check your identity / Security and yet you are still subject to BS security checks because thats what the law says!!!
The world is going batty!!! or am i just insane!!!!:confused:

[Bob Murphie]

I have just found the notes I made in my diary from my last board meeting as a director of a certain aviation representative organisation some 7 months ago, whereupon, just before I resigned, one BH reported that CASA OLC had claimed that the previous credit card licence did not conform to ICAO. The FAA, NZ and many other Country’s felt it did and had no problem with maintaining it.

It appears that OLC made some changes to ICAO (1) then they continued to progress through the ICAO steps in 2005 and are due to become fully effective May 2006 where there should be nothing stopping CASA issuing a combined ASIC with the licence and I believe that was intended. Somehow this ground to a halt when the Minister gave CASA the job of issuing ASIC’s.

What can, and should be done is that after May 2006, the form of an ASIC issued by CASA can also be a licence.

Bob M.