BA Collection at RAF Cosford under threat (Merged)

[Jhieminga]

This press release was issued by the RAFM:
THE BRITISH AIRWAYS COLLECTION


The Board of British Airways and the Royal Air Force Museum board of Trustees, is currently reviewing the status of the aircraft in the British Airways Collection, within the context of the new National Cold War Exhibition at Cosford.

The new development at Cosford will enable the Museum’s externally displayed RAF aircraft complete protection within a covered enclosure, whilst keeping them accessible to the public. These aircraft, which up till now have been subject to adverse weather conditions, will be housed under perfectly suitable conditions which will enable their preservation and display for future generations.

The aircraft in the British Airways Collection held at Cosford includes the VC10; 707; BAC 1-11; Trident and Viscount. The collection, which is rendered incomplete without the Concorde, has up till now been on external display in the areas surrounding the main Museum site. The board of Trustees is now considering their future as part of the Royal Air Force Museum collection, as they do not qualify for protection within the Cold War museum.


…Ends
Reading between the lines it basically says that they want five aircraft off their property.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'd heard rumours that RAFM didn't feel that BA was paying enough (anything?) towards the upkeep of that collection and were getting a little peeved about it.

G

[Saab Dastard]

Looks like they are history then. I can't see anyone being willing to dismantle, transport and re-assemble them on a different site.

There would be many locations that would benefit from having them donated - would there be sufficient volunteers to actually do the necessary work? Now that would be a challenge to get into!

I'm sure that Brooklands could find a bit of space!

[Onan the Clumsy]

So the museum is going to be saying "Buhbye" to those aircraft?

[Tonkenna]

It will be a travesty if they are allowed to chop these ac up...
Sadly it will not be the first time that important ac have been scrapped at that museum:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v166/andytownshend/scrap1.jpg
Taken when I worked there as a volunteer many moons ago:{ :mad:
Tonks

[D120A]

Tonks,

That looks like a serious case of Vulcan't.

D120A

[HZMIS]

BA have no interest, no monies and few engineering staff to attend to these aircraft. I guess that unless someone can come up with cash they will be disposed of eventually. Is it really a surprise to anyone as companies nor the government have little interest in history.

[Jhieminga]

I have been in touch with the RAF Museum on this and they replied that:
The press release ... was an unauthorised and therefore inaccurate release.

At the moment, I can confirm that both British Airways and the Royal Air Force Museum Board of Trustees are together, currently reviewing the future status of the aircraft in the British Airways Collection at the Museum's site in Cosford. Discussions have barely started and the review is ongoing.
While this doesn't tell us much that is new, I find it surprising that a press release, however inaccurate it seems to be, did find its way out. The basic message also seems to be the same: 'we are reviewing the future prospects'. I guess it still makes sense to keep an eye on the developments, and perhaps to let the RAFM and BA know that we are concerned for the future well-being of the airframes.

[reverserunlocked]

Ah yes, Cosford. I remember many happy hours wandering round the museum as a nipper, and the shock of being charged £2 for a couple of cans of coke at the airshow!

I also remember when I was in the RAF cadets doing a First Aid exercise one evening in the Nissen Huts whilst on camp at Cosford. As we drove back to our digs in the bus the sun was setting behind the VC10's huge T-tail and one of those childhood images of the beauty of aviation was etched onto my mind. I recall thinking how sad it was that those aircraft would never take the skies again.

Daft question, CAA permissions and permits notwithstanding, would it be totally beyond comprehension that some of these aircraft might be moved somewhere else under their own power? I know next to nothing about the effects of decades of storage on an airliner so stand ready to be flamed into submission for my extreme ignorance. Surely a bit of grease on the control cables, a thorough inspection and a slosh of gas and you'd be away? ;)

*runs*

[HZMIS]

I think you will find many of the key bits are missing and the airframes would be riddled with corrosion. Besides, back to the same problem who would pay. On an aside, a positive note, Qantas plus others are trying to get the resident B707 at SEN airborn and back to Aussie for their museum. This a/c has been a non-starting resident since 1999, so I suppose there is the odd few around that still value these old aircraft. I for one look forward to hearing it start up later this year and take to the air.

[Saab Dastard]

would it be totally beyond comprehension that some of these aircraft might be moved somewhere else under their own power?

As HZMIS points out, this would not be practical! As an example, look how much is being spent in the attempt to get the Bruntingthorpe Vulcan flying again. A couple of million pounds or so!

SD

[Opssys]

Maintaining the airframes which make-up 'The British Airways Collection' is very important as a group they form a significant slice of post-war British civil aviation history. The fact that BA has at least once in the past been careless with its own history, should and indeed must not affect the future of this collection. Although a BOAC/BEA/BA Collection and therefore 'Company Based' if Cash is required then this one for an urgent appeal for Lottery Funding and if that means some of the AIrcraft have to be repained in other carriers colours then so be it.

Individually most of the Aircraft Types can be viewed elsewhere, it is their value as a single collection which makes them important.

I am really annoyed that it appears corrosion is a problem and key bits are missing and the fact that they have been allowed to deteriorate has me spitting feathers.. .. expletives deleted ..... Dried Frog Pills to the rescue

[grow45]

There seems to be a suggestion in the Flypast magazine forum under the title "Miles Monarch to be ejected from East Fortune Museum" that part of the BA collection is to be moved to East Fortune. after a clear out of some of the less interesting to the casual visitor aircraft which are cluttering up the hangars there at present. Its not backed up by any official comment that I can see - anybody else heard this.

g 45

[Photo]

News on BA.com
A collection of former British Airways aircraft is to be moved from the RAF Museum in Cosford to new homes.
The five historic aircraft, known officially as The BA Collection, have been resident at the RAF Museum for the past few decades.
Following a review of the aircraft's future by the RAF Museum and British Airways it was decided that they had to be found new homes.
The five aircraft will be moving to:
Vickers Viscount 701 - The aircraft will be dismantled and reconstructed in full at The Museum of Flight, East Fortune - part of The National Museums of Scotland.
BAC 1-11 - The aircraft will be dismantled and reconstructed in full at The Museum of Flight, East Fortune.
Boeing 707-436 - The front fuselage (forward of the wings) will be transported to The Museum of Flight, East Fortune.
Vickers VC10 - It is intended that the front fuselage (forward of the wings) and some parts of technical interest will be moved to Brooklands Museum in Surrey.
Hawker Siddeley Trident - The cockpit and nose section will be transported to The Museum of Flight, East Fortune.
Geoff Want, British Airways' director of ground operations, said: "I am pleased that we have been able to find good homes for these aircraft.
"We have developed strong links with both museums following the move of Concorde Alpha Alpha from Heathrow to Scotland and the move of Concorde Delta Golf from Filton to Brooklands.
"We are sure that both museums will give the same levels of care to these historic aircraft as they have shown to our Concordes.
"These aircraft are an important part of the UK's aviation heritage and will hopefully add extra interest to both museums' current aircraft displays.
"I would like to thank the RAF Museum for all their support and for all the care they have given to these aircraft over the past few decades.
"In the coming months we will co-ordinate the deconstruction and reconstruction of these aircraft with all the museums to ensure that the new displays will be of the highest possible quality."
The aircraft will be disassembled and re-assembled at their new homes by Air Salvage International.
The company worked closely with British Airways and the two museums during 2004 when it deconstructed and reconstructed Concorde Alpha Alpha and Concorde Delta Golf.

[grow45]

Thanks. It didn.t occur to me to look at the BA web site.

If EF can get them indoors fairly quickly then this actually looks like a good move. The Viscount and 1-11 are very relevant to Scotland (although I'l bet BA wont let it be repainted to B Cal livery) as is the Trident. The 707 less so but it will relate well to the Comet.

I was initially very sceptical about Concorde coming to EF but it does seem to have given it much needed publicity and funding with a major development plan on the way. Hopefully this can only be beneficial as well.

g45

[Opssys]

So the decision has been made and the Museum of Flight at East Fortune (which is one of my top five UK museums - it's rank varies, according to mood, the number of pints consumed, or dried frog pill intake) gets 2 Complete Aircraft and bits of another two. Whilst Brooklands (another good home) gets the bits of a fifth.

Hmm, I assume that corrosion and cost have meant that the VC10, 707 and Trident were beyond saving as complete aircraft.

So what about the Britannia?

Also although not part of the British Airways Collection two more aircraft were/are in company livery: Comet 1A - BOAC and Westland Dragonfly - BEAH. I wonder what the future holds for them?

I am saddened this has happened, whilst caring for Company Heritage can be taken to extremes that overall it has a negative effect on the Company, in this case I think BA's stewardship (or lack of it) of the Collection that bore its name has gone too far the other way.


I would love to see a BAC1-111 in BCAL Colours again, in any UK Museum, but even if BA Waived it through, as far as I am aware the Aircraft going to East Fortune never served with any carrier other than BEA/BA, so it would be a bit of cheek to paint it BUA, or BCAL Colours
(nice thought though :-)
DIH

[fradu]

I believe the Britannia and Comet I are RAFM-owned, so both are secure.

[edinv]

- The local Edinburgh newspaper 'Evening News' refered to the pending Viscoount arrival at East Fortune as the 'Scottish Prince', G-AMOGs name when it operated BOAC (later BA) feeder services from PIK to BFS, EDI & ABZ, during the period 1972-76. - Hope they re-paint it in the BOAC colours! (Viscount 701 G-AMON who shared the duties with 'OG was the the 'Scottish Princess')

[Blacksheep]

The Royal Air Force has an excellent VC10 museum going in Oxfordshire. Unfortunately its not open to the public, though you can watch the frequent flying displays from outside the wire. I believe they are going to dispose of some of the exhibits soon and most of them are still 'airworthy'. I do hope that one of our better aviation museums can find a place for at least one of them.

[Skipness One Echo]

I am gutted by this. Absolutely gutted. What a waste.

[Skipness One Echo]

So the rare B707-437 gets junked and the last BA standard goes the same way. Well done the luddites.
*spits blood*

[Opssys]

Hmm Skipness One when you wrote:
So the rare B707-437 gets junked and the last BA standard goes the same way. Well done the luddites.

I only thing I would change is that rare should read last.
A thread drift, Cosford is/was not the only museum to hold extremely rare airframes, or at least remains in BA predecessor colours.
My particular concern (at least until I find something else to get angry about) is the fate of the Hermes 4 Fuselage formerly G-ALDG.
Started with BOAC with them for 7 years.Passed very quickly through several operators until ending it's flying days with Britavia/Silver City and wfu early 1962. Officially Scrapped in October 1962, the Fuselage complete with Tailfin was rescued by BUA (when Freddie Laker was MD) and spent the next 26 Years as a Cabin Trainer (BUA/Cale-BUA/BCAL).
After the BA Takeover the Aircraft ended up at Duxford (Minus Tailfin) and painted in BOAC Colours with it's original name Horsa (which I don't have a problem with, although a BUA, or BCAL Scheme would have been nice).
But it doesn't appear to be listed in the Duxford collection anymore. Is it still around?
DIH

[AppleMacster]

Opssys,

According to the IWM website, the Hermes has been restored as part of the AirSpace exhibition, due to open in 2007. Having not seen it personally at Duxford, I can't verify the information. Here is the link:

http://duxford.iwm.org.uk/server.php?show=ConWebDoc.3452&navId=00d007

AppleMacster

[BEagle]

Yet another reason why I will never EVER fly with ba.....

These airframes must be preserved intact, not cut up.

[Opssys]

Thanks AppleMacaster.
Don't know how I missed that link. But one less cause of angst :-)
DIH

[Skipness One Echo]

I believe that there still exists a Conway powered Lufthansa 707 so perhaps G-APFJ is not the last surviving B707-400s series? However the Cosford Trident is the only preserved Trident 1C in the whole world. G-ARVM is the only surviving passenger ( non exec ) Standard VC10 in the world.
Please somehow find a way to move them completely and put them back together as whole aircraft !!! This is cultural vanadalism of the highest order - a short sighted folly by people who ought to know better.

[BEagle]

A Boeing 707-430 which formerly flew for German Lufthansa under the registration D-ABOD is currently under restoration at Hamburg's Fuhlsbüttel airport.

The airport is proud that this historic aircraft is so well looked after - I saw it only recently.

And at another German location, through the windows of a workshop I saw a very rare aircraft indeed being restored to airworthy condition.....














A 'Butcher bird'!

[treadigraph]

The Hermes fuselage is definitely still at Duxford and has been restored. I gather that they removed her fin to stop her weathercocking in the wind (!) and it has disappeared! Seems rather a large item to mislay, but there you go.

I remember her sitting behind the Cale complex next to the A23 at Gatwick when I nobbut a lad...

[Tempsford]

Preserving large aircraft will always create logistical problems. As I have said before, well intentioned people did not grasp the situation years ago when the idea of aircraft preservation gained apace.
It will never be practical to display aircraft of any size or description outside on a long term basis in this country without a detrimental effect on the structure. Aircraft were simply not designed to be stored outside long term sat on their gear. What evidence of decay that can be seen on the outside of the aircraft is a fraction of the problem that is arising. Structural failure, corosion in fuel tanks etc etc is another aspect that although cannot be seen, is happening.
Unless we adopt a policy of putting aircraft under cover in climatically controlled environments, maintained by people who know how to preserve aircraft, the inevitable fact is that we will lose those remaining outside.
Again, I would ask for emotion to be taken away from aircraft preservation. We must realise that unless aircraft are preserved correctly for the years to come, they will have a shelf life and this is evident by what is going on at Cosford now. I would even suggest that this was known when the aircraft were delivered to Cosford. BA did start to look after the a/c by placing de-humidifiers etc on them and carrying out other work which would only prolong the inevtiable.
Let's identify which aircraft that are stored outside now and select which ones that should be preserved under cover in the correct conditions.
Then we should identify where they should be preserved and how. This should be done so that future generations can see our aviation heritage. It will cost a fortune, but can we warrant the cost? Who will pay for it?
On another note, it looks like the Brit will remain at Cosford, outside, as is the Brit at Duxford. Both look as though they will remain outside... and rot.
My point is that to some, aircraft such as the Brit are not 'sexy' enough to warrant under cover storage. How many Vulcans and Spifires are 'preserved' in the UK compared to Transport Aircraft? Duxford is putting some airliners under cover when the new superhangar development is complete..well done Duxford.. you are the first to do this in the UK on a notable scale..there are others doing it on a lesser scale due to space and cost.
To clarify my stance, I am a Transport Aviation person. I have worked on many of the aircraft now rotting at the locations that we are discussing when they were in service.
It worries me that we have the opportunity to preserve what remaining avaition heritage that we do have for future generations and whilst some positive moves are being made, a number of 'gems' will be lost forever very soon unless something is done quickly and with the long term in mind. That is quite a responsibility. As can be seen at Cosford, we are disecting some of the aircraft and keeping the cockpits rather like animals heads mounted by game hunters. I am one of those people who wonder what the whole animal looked like and now will never know.

Gets off soap box and dons tin hat

Temps

[Skylion]

BA have never had much of a genuine interest in their heritage,- and especially in their historic interest. For anyone in BAs management to display an interest in aircraft or indeed the aviation industry overall has always been a kiss of death. The unlamented Ayling is alleged to have said " I hate aircraft" and no pictures of aircraft adorned Waterside during his time there. Hence over the years the dispatch to the fire dump of the unique Argonaut and the BOAC Comet 4. The Hermes fuselage, inherited from Silver City, was saved by BUA although it never flew in BUA or BCAL colours. The demise of the Standard VC 10 and 707-436 is a tragedy and , as is said above, a sad comparaison with the restoration work and pride in history shown in Germany.

[Opssys]

Firstly I agree with the thrust of Temps post.
In part the problem is the way the British Aircraft Preservation Movement has 'grown up' (reliance on enthusiasm rather than money in most cases) in part our Climate and in part explaining to a sponsor that the purchase price of the Aircraft is actually only part (in some cases a small part) of the monies required.

We have reached a stage where simple Preservation (as in for God's sake we have got to save this), to Conservation (as in I want my great grandchild to see this), requires much more consideration than in the (recent) past.

The Science Museum Outstation has two beautiful large transport Aircraft under cover: a Connie in TWA Colours and Comet in Dan Air (both very appropriate) they look good and are well preserved, but I don't have a clue as whether they have been conserved (anti-corrosion treatment even in tanks etc) and like the rest of the outstation collection are rarely available to view.

But if a move from Preservation to Conservation is required (and it is), then funding requirements go through the roof (of any hangar you care to think of).

Whilst no organisation is immune from shortages in funding what they want/believe vital to achieve, I think I would rather be say, curator at one of the RAFM sites than at East Fortune or Newark.

I guess Lottery Funding and Private Sponsorship are the only realistic sources of serious capital for most organisations as whilst HMG talks big on Heritage, it does not allocate project money to, for instance ensuring a Shorts Belfast in Heavylift colours is conserved.

Obviously the situation is not all bleak, as the museums do what they can and apparently in somes cases by sheer willpower accomplish more than can be humanly expected.

Duxford (despite misplacing an entire Tailfin from a Hermes - Thanks Tredders for increasing my dried frog pill intake :-) is obviously progressing from preservation to conservation.

We have the History (in some cases just as we are forced to watch it rot), but open storage (even with anti-corrosion treatment) is only a stop-gap in 'our weather'.

So Hangars with all the ancillaries are the only answer and there lies the rub - can sufficient money be found to ensure that at least one example of each surviving Britsh built, (or at least significant to British Aviation) Large Transport be saved?

My heart says Yes, my cold calculating Head says No!
DIH

[Skipness One Echo]

How long do we have until the axe falls? I want to have a last look at the VC10, 707 and Trident before they are destroyed.

Also does Wroughton still have a Trident?

[wub]

From 'The Scotsman'
http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=512112006

[BEagle]

Well, I've voted AGAINST 'Museum of Flight' winning the Gulbenkian Prize due to the fact that, by accepting the aircraft from Cosford, an unique collection will be dispersed and some aircraft cut up for exhibit instead of remaining in their current complete state.

[fradu]

Metal fencing has already been erected around the Boeing 707 at Cosford.
Not long one suspects before the JCBs begin to move in. :sad:

[AppleMacster]

I popped over to Cosford late this afternoon after fradu mentioned the fencing. Alas, he was right. Very sad. I was there only last weekend and there was no hint of the relocation at the museum.
A sign on the 707 fence says that the removal order is:
B707-436 (G-APFJ)
BAC 1-11-510 (G-AVMO)
Vickers Viscount 701 (G-AMOG)
HS Trident 1-C (G-ARPH)
Vickers VC10 (G-ARVM) to Brooklands.
http://amandadunnedesign.com/IMG_0774.jpg
http://amandadunnedesign.com/IMG_0777.jpg
http://amandadunnedesign.com/IMG_0781.jpg
http://amandadunnedesign.com/IMG_0782.jpg
http://amandadunnedesign.com/IMG_0783.jpg

[Albert Driver]

I take it that those of you who are angry about this have made your views known to Cosford and BA?
Email RAF Museum: [email protected] or [email protected]
Email BA Museum: [email protected]
Sorry, Willie Walsh won't let me have his email address.......but it doesn't stop you writing snailmail to him at BA Waterside.

[Opssys]

I haven't contacted either. In the case of Cosford, I don't see them as to blame. They hosted the Collection and from what I glean did their best with decreasing support from BA.

As for BA, my anger over the Collection is probably a decade too late (in that to conserve these Aircraft should have been a continous ongoing budgeted and resourced activity).

As for my Concerns over BA's general stewardship of it's heritage, then my anger is 30+ Years too late, as when BEA and BOAC were brought together (a mega clash of cultures - which scarred management thinking for over a generation), there was a one-off opportunity to form an Historical Task Force (of Historians, not employees) which could have brought the strands of most of Britains Civil Aviation Heritage together in a documented archive. Some material was saved and went to Hendon intially?, but an awful lot was destroyed.

So perhaps my ire is due to the knowledge that I and indeed all the others who posted are unable to change one iota the current situation.

Whilst the BA Museum and Archive Web Site is a 'nod' in the right direction, the very slow rate of site development says an awful lot about the Corporate Attitude (as encapsulated by Skylion).

Finally: I did think BEagle was for once unfair. East Fortune are accepting the Aircraft and Bits, not their fault that the bits are all that is left of two important Airframes which cannot be saved!
DIH

[Albert Driver]

What sort of defeatist attitude is that, Opssys?

There was a time when the RAF had no interest in preservation and what was saved was down to a handful of forward-thinking private individuals. Then the RAF Museum was funded and a great RAF collection built up (at taxpayers' expense). At the time the airlines were making big profits and were able to contribute "private funding" to the preservation movement. I don't remember Cosford being reluctant to take BA's money then!
But right now BA has a financial crisis to contend with and has no money for this sort of thing. How does Cosford repay BA for the attraction the BA Collection brought to their museum? By cutting up the aircraft the instant the money runs out! I think that is disgraceful! Call itself a museum?
There is no doubt in my mind (and in the minds of the shareholders) that BA wil sort out its pension fund and start making big profits again quite soon. Why the rush? Why the pressure? Tow them to another part of the airfield and wait for new sponsorship if necessary.

This is nothing less than vandalism by Cosford at a time when BA has no option but to save what little it can at nil cost.

I for one will not forget this next time the RAF Museum asks for funds.

But I still believe that, with sufficient pressure on the RAF Museum and adverse publicity for BA, this can be halted.

[Brain Potter]

Clearly there is not a bottomless pit of cash for aircraft preservation - but I just wonder whether the available cash is being spent in the best interests of the nation's aviation heritage. We have spent a lot of money preserving American aircraft indoors at Duxford (Ok, WW2 has relevance but a B52??) Getting the Vulcan airworthy may well have drained the pot of any lottery funding for other projects and whilst I would love to see it fly again - at what price? The Cosford Museum has decide to go "Cold War" and so we will have 2 Vulcans preserved inside (Hendon and Cosford) and another one in airworthy condition(for a few years at least). Is that really indicative of the importance of one ac type? - even one as special as the Vulcan. Meanwhile, less sexy but still historically important aircraft have been left to rot outside and will now be cut up because they don't fit a theme.
The Trident is unique and every effort should be made to save it intact. The loss of the VC10 will be sad - but maybe this clears the decks for Cosford to eventually aquire an RAF example. The 707 may be written off as American (although the Conways are a bit special). However, the most interesting aspect of the display is that these aircraft are collectively significant to the UK aircraft industry. The Trident maybe could have been as sucessful as the 727, but for BEA interference with the design. BOAC never wanted the VC10 and did everything they could to kill it off. The 707 was BOAC's desired aircraft, amid stories of underhand dealings. These 3 ac together represent milestones in the "what could have been" story of UK airliner manufacture. Maybe it is BA's ownership of the aircraft that has actually inhibited their use in telling the warts-and-all story of how BOAC, BEA, the goverment, and the industry itself ruined the British airliner. Throw in the Comet and mildly sucessful 1-11 (again what a chance was missed compared with the DC9 and 737) and this could have been a superb theme.
Cosford, BA and even BAE Systems should be ashamed.

[Opssys]

Your of course right Albert Driver: My attitude can be construed as defeatist and not helped by Mig15s post as it sums ups the situation that existed in part of the BA management structure at the time he made his offer.
They would have been totally nonplussed at how to respond. Amazed anyone would make the offer without payment and totally without any understanding that peserving their history would be of interest outside some 'nuts' within the company.

Another reason for my less than 'positive' attitude is that within BA there are many who do passionately care about preserving the Company Heritage and not just out of a sense of 'History' but as something that can work for the company in Marketing, Advertising and Promotion. But if those working from the inside cannot stop acts of corporate vandalism who can!

Whilst this thread is about the Aircraft Collection, the loss of BEA and BOAC Heritage Material has wider implications than just the Aviation History Community - BEA were early Adopters and Developers in Aviation Specific Computing as well as more General Business Aplications, Telecommunications Systems and Networks. Use and development of Ground Transport Operations both Bus and Truck. In all these cases echoes of this pioneering work still exist in todays Airlines and Transport Industries. So much of this has been lost and because so many of the 'people who were there' are no longer with us, it is well nigh impossible to 'reconstruct the story'.

So from my viewpoint and I accept today (especially) that I am in a non-positive frame of mind, the fate of the Aircraft Collection is another lost cause in the 'long defeat' over the British Airways Heritage.
When the RAF and others 'woke up' to what had already been lost and what was in clear and present danger of disappearing, they did start to do something (too slow one might say)! BA perversely seemed to go the other way!
As for Cosford - It is not for me to defend them further - they are big enough to do it themselves. But even if they are deemed not totally blameless (and I remain to be convinced that any blame can be attached), as this was not the 'National Airliner Collection', the Company who's name it bore is the primary Culprit.
DIH

[Albert Driver]

I have a great deal of sympathy with all you say, Opssys, and I'm certainly not going to defend BA's record on the conservation of its heritage. But at the end of the day BA is an airline, and one that is currently fighting for survival and short of cash for anything that is not part of the core operation. The RAF Museum on the other hand exists only for the purpose of preserving and displaying historic aircraft. To say, as John Francis has, that the MOD can't continue to support the BA collection at Cosford until all other ways to preserve these aircraft complete have been exhausted flies in the face of everything the Museum was created for. RAF aircraft were saved for the RAF Museum by non-RAF personnel but the RAF Museum won't delay the destruction of a unique collection of non-RAF aircraft until private funding becomes available again, as it surely will, to preserve them. What kind of a museum policy and attitude is that? What kind of barbarian Directorate? Given that BA has abandoned its Collection why does Cosford necessarily have to connive in its destruction?
Both BA and Cosford have stated that the aircraft are to be "moved to other museums", "disassembled and re-assembled", "found new homes", "deconstructed and reconstructed" etc etc. These are downright untruths and both organisations (and that means the Directors who made these misleading statements) should be held to account for their dishonesty.

[Opssys]

Aah Yes as Albert Driver states BA is a Commercial Organisation operating in many markets which in 'normal' times (whenever those are) are 'cut throat' and at the same time in a period when fuel prices are high and variable, with both internal and external costs rising!

Believe it or not I do have considerable sympathy the Board and Senior Management at BA whilst they attempt to deal with this situation (the phrase once uttered by an IBM Chairman does come to mind - 'How do you make an Elephant Tap Dance' when he was trying to restructure IBM to enable it to react to difficult commercial circumstances).

However BA has enjoyed extremely profitable periods and has, many times, blown money on expensive exercises which proved futile!
But even when annoucing excellent profits has never given any real consistent thought to heritage matters.

Although far, far, too late, I am sure that a reasonable 'Heritage Policy' even if implemented as late as the early 1990's could have mobilised a lot of BA retired Engineers to help with the Aircraft at Cosford - Providing Transport too/from a Heathrow area Location could have been arranged.
People like MIG15 were willing to assist.
Even non-Engineering volunteers, where BA or non-company could have been used for the less skilled jobs and done it for transport and an Airline Meal :-).
This would have been low cost and given BA some positive Publicity (which is always something PR want).

As we accept BA is entirely a commercial organisation, (then despite my belief they could have benefited from the Collection in ways that would show some tangible result) and found the cost of supporting the Airliner Collection a burden, then a decade ago there were some alternatives. If you like they could have given it to the 'Nation' with a one-off never to be repeated money donation. This would have forced several Government, NGO's concerned with Heritage and Cosford to take on-board the idea of a 'National Airliner Collection'

But all of that is in the past - What survives, whether complete, or as remains are going to good homes.

I said I wouldn't defend Cosford further: But as their ultimate master is the MoD, I suggest this tends to 'focus' the Museums priorities!

Note to Albert Driver:
I suspect that over a few pints we could end up 'issuing a joint statement' that would accommodate our differing views. But a thread based conversation isn't going to achieve that :-)
DIH

[DH106]

All good points.

As we accept BA is entirely a commercial organisation...........
Yes but the money we're talking about is absolute peanuts to a large airline. Probably a tiny fraction of a typical BA telly commercial. I'd have thought the good publicity alone would be work the poultry investment - but I guess it's probably considered that the 'audience' isn't big enough.

[Krystal n chips]

About 10 years ago I offered my services, ground equipment and workforce to BA , totally free of charge to spend a couple of months at Cosford carrying out preventative maintenance.
The response?
NOTHING!
I tried to chase it but nobody was interested!

I'm sure they used to send their apprentices to Cosford for this very purpose ?--could be wrong of course, but I seem to recall speaking to those who had done a compulsory stint at the place. They actually enjoyed it by the way--not surprisingly !.

[Albert Driver]

You say it was 10 years ago, Mig15, that you made the offer to do some conservation work on the BA Collection. That puts it firmly in the Bob Ayling era of the ethnic tails and contempt for anything reflecting BA's past. Another great Ayling legacy, then. Thanks Bob.

[fradu]

The RAF Museum have a unfortunate history of scrapping exhibits in the past where money has become tight.
They scrapped the Beverley at Hendon, and the last remaining Vulcan B.1 and Victor B.1 bombers in the 1980s/90s.
So you could say some the bad feeling and blame directed towards them about these sad events is understandable.

Given that all the exhibits are now owned officially by the Museum, and not the RAF, is the RAFM in anyway a self-supporting organisation now in terms of exhibit upkeep?

[Albert Driver]

John Francis of RAFM said, "The Museum is funded by
the Ministry of Defence and MOD money cannot be spent on civil
airliners."

Now, given all the spin currently being put out by BA and RAFM, is this correct?

[DX Wombat]

John Francis of RAFM said, "The Museum is funded by
the Ministry of Defence and MOD money cannot be spent on civil
airliners."
Therefore the following must also be disappearing from Cosford:
Avro York Mig You seem to know even less about RAF aircraft than I do but I can assure you quite categorically that Avro Yorks were flown by the RAF. My father was a RAF pilot and he flew RAF Yorks.

[Tempsford]

Ouch Dx, seems to have hit a nerve...those of us that know you realise the affinity that you have with the York. The guardians of our aviation heritage should make a call DX...there is one York at Duxford and another at Cosford, both under cover. There are no Brits under cover at this time, scrap one of the Yorks to make way for a Brit...seems fair to me (TIC)
I seem to remember that the RAF had a few Brits as well, but not the one at Cosford. The last operator of G-AOVF was IAS if my memory serves me right. Ironic that it is now in BOAC colours, the forbear of the operator who has now walked away from their aircraft at Cosford. (G-AOVF did operate for BOAC so I can see why it was painted in BOAC colours)
Trouble is that Transport Aircraft tend to be on the large side. If we are looking for a museum to hold them how about a national commercial aircraft museum? Are there any potential sites? Thoughts on a postcard please.

Temps

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

John Francis of RAFM said, "The Museum is funded by
the Ministry of Defence and MOD money cannot be spent on civil
airliners."
Therefore the following must also be disappearing from Cosford:
Avro York
Britannia
Jetstream
Comet
Flying Flea (Not an Airliner but also not Military!)


Well, in fact, the first four of those types have been operated by the UK military.

[sedburgh]

John Francis of RAFM said, "The Museum is funded by
the Ministry of Defence and MOD money cannot be spent on civil
airliners."
Now, given all the spin currently being put out by BA and RAFM, is this correct?
According to their own collections policy, which is available at: http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/london/policy-performance/documents/collecting_policy/Collecting%20statement%20for%20curatorial%20division.doc
British Airways aircraft are legitimate objects for their collection.
"THE PURPOSE OF THE ARTEFACTS COLLECTION
11. To build up a material record of the objects used, worn or operated by the personnel of the organisations stated in the policy aim outlined above. The military forces and other bodies covered by that statement to receive priority as below:
[ sub-paras a - k ]
l) British Airways and its predecessors."

[PPRuNe Radar]

In the days of dodgy digital cameras ... a GPS approach proving flight in BAC 1-11 XX105 at Leuchars (the go around part)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/atco10w/Flying/climbout.jpg

[Albert Driver]

Thanks for that link, Sedburgh. What a wealth of information lies within the RAF Museum's collections policy on the site.
Look at the following: FAFM/DCM/2/6/3/1 ACQUISITION & DISPOSAL POLICY
DISPOSAL
20. Disposal will not be undertaken principally for financial reasons (either to raise money for any purpose or to reduce expenditure).

[DX Wombat]

The point I was trying to make was related to Civil Airliners, not if they were flown by the Military. So why include four aircraft which were Military? The York was originally built for the RAF. I had a feeling the Jetstream was also used by the RAF but, as with the Britannia and Comet, wasn't too sure so didn't mention them. The York at Duxford is only partially complete - it has no wings :{ but does have a very nice paint scheme which I believe is Dan Air but could well be wrong. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/DX_Wombat/Scotland2004009.jpg
The one at Cosford is complete and a fascinating shade of dark green :ugh: I have a photo on my other computer but can't retrieve it at the moment.
Temps, your idea of a dedicated museum is an excellent one and one I feel should be explored further. Whilst in NO way decrying the invaluable contribution of the Spitfire to our history, It does seem that almost every museum has at least one of them perhaps to the detriment of other, equally worthy, potential exhibits. It sometimes seems that, like the silly assumption by some, that all pilots were men and no women pilots paid any contribution to the war effort, the only aircraft in the war, with the possible exception of the Lancaster, was the Spitfire. Elvington is the only place, so far, where I have seen a specific memorial to the women.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/DX_Wombat/553e06c5.jpg
GCC thanks for the info.

[fradu]

The Jetstream served the RAF for over 20 years in the Navigation training role, first at Finningley and then at Cranwell.
There were retired from service in 2004/5.

[Skipness One Echo]

The Britannia was an RAF transport as was the Comet and there was an RAF Jetstream at Coford on the pan yesterday in addition to BAe G-BBYM.
G-APFJ had 3 of it's 4 angines lying on the grass, the other was nowhere in sight. G-ARVM looked to be deteriorating as did G-APFJ. The Valiant looked in a bit of a state too. G-AVMO was looking bedraggled and oddly G-ARPH, the Trident looked fine !


If I might add, anyone who doesn't know that the Comet, Britannia and Jetstream served with the RAF has nothin meaningful to add here.

[Tempsford]

I sure hope so, but they have to go under cover or we will be having a similar conversation in 10 years when they are being chopped up.....


Temps

[DX Wombat]

If I might add, anyone who doesn't know that the Comet, Britannia and Jetstream served with the RAF has nothin meaningful to add here.Why? I am not afraid to admit that I don't know everything and am still learning. Not only am I still learning, I hope to continue to do so to the end of my life. I'm sure Mig and most other people would probably agree with me. To amend slightly a quotation from a present I was given: "We don't stop learning because we grow old, we grow old because we stop learning." I, and I would think many other people, will never achieve the depth of knowledge which Tempsford has, but it won't stop me trying to learn more. :ok:
Mig you are forgiven, as Temps said, I have a special affinity with the York and would really love to be able to see one flying but I fear that is most unlikely to happen. :{
I hope to be able to visit Cosford again as soon as the children have returned to school - it's much more peaceful then and easier to get to the "Hands-on" exhibits :E :ok:

[Tempsford]

DX
I am sure that no one intended to take this thread to a 'personal' level (DID WE!!). From previous experience, there are some thread posters who are very swift to pick up on anything they feel is incorrect. Perhaps too quick and too cutting on occasion..... Why, I know not. (not more 'willy waving'!!) As you say, we are always learning and the fact that the aircraft knowledge of some is perhaps less than others should not preclude them for contributing to threads. My sad story involves being the third generation aviation in my family. My three sons are also in the industry as well. Yes, I know, I should have warned them off. However, their level of overall aviation knowledge is excellent and in most cases, far better than mine. Yes, I have created monsters!
The aviation knowledge exhibited on PPRUNE is quite staggering. How some have manged to keep a thread going on Cocpkit/Flight Deck pictures for so long is a testament to the knowlegde of PPRUNERS. The speed in which quite obscure questions are answered never ceases to amaze me and the support given by most in the form of indicating where resources and information can be obtained is, again, excellent.
Whilst flattered that my limited knowledge (and believe me it is VERY limited) has assisted some, I am mindful of the great depth of knowlege of some PPRUNERS. My excuse is 50 years of aviation background. It was inevitable that some 'knowledge' would be retained, albeit limited.
So, fellow PPRUNERS, the next time a mail is posted by someone who may not have as much aviation knowledge as you, 'cut em some slack' and help them with a positive response and try not to exhibit it in a way that you know more than they do. Perhaps you do, but the person asking the question may be able to help you one day in a field that you are not perhaps so knowledgeable in.

Temps

[surely not]

This is symptomatic of the difficulty we have in the UK for recognising important parts of our heritage. We are happy to preserve old houses and warehouses because it is easier and relatively cheap, but given the opportunity to preserve aircraft that have contributed to the economic welfare of the UK by carrying business men and women who won orders for British businesses there is no corporate sponsorship to be found.

The other difficulty is the sheer size of the product we are interested in preserving. How long before we need space to preserve a B747-100 srs in BOAC colours, or better still a 747-200 in BCal colours :D and where in heavens name would it be housed? Far easier to tug at distant memories and preserve another 10 Spitfires!!

Are we going to be able to find a home for the present and the future large commercial aircraft that are part of the history of UK aviation; DC10-30 for BCal, DC-10-10 for Laker; Lockheed 1011 Tristar for BA, B767 and B757 again for BA etc etc. Heaven knows where we will ever house an A380!!

Look at the difficulties that the Bristol Aero Collection has recently had re the move of their Britannia from Kemble.

If the Spitfire tugs at the heartstrings for its deeds in 1940 then surely the heart strings of the general public can be pulled for aircraft that took them on their first trips to far off places on holiday or business? It needs one site to be developed for this purpose and it needs an airfield with a good runway and lots of development potential for a museum to grow in the future.

I have many photos to remind me of the missing a/c types and airlines at work, but others are not so fortunate and it would be good if they could at least see the aircraft on the ground.

[Tempsford]

SN,
Well said.
Temps

[r3500vdp]

I read on a website (http://www.aviation-friends-cologne.de/html/Boeing707/Boeing707.htm) that the RAF museum in Cosford is going to scrap their Boeing 707, G-APFJ this year.

See link: http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1011294/L/

I find this a disgrace. Why is it that allmost no transport aircraft are being kept (convair 880 / 990, Boeing 707, DC-8). Looks like we have to rely on Mr. Travolta and others to preserve a piece of history.

[Oshkosh George]

Cosford's Trident is also to be scrapped. The nose of the Trident,and that of the 707,plus the complete Viscount,and the complete BAC111 are all to be moved to East Fortune in Scotland. These all still belong to British Airways,and the rumour is that the RAF want them out.

This is a shame,but as happened when the Concorde was moved to East Fortune,other aircraft there have received their marching orders. I know that at least the Miles Monarch,which belongs to the Aircraft Preservation Society of Scotland (APSS),will be looking for pastures new. I personally value the aircraft they presently have,and they're possibly thinking that the airliners will draw more visitors. A very sad day.

[r3500vdp]

I noticed there is already a discussion going on this under:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=205716

Sorry for the repost here. Still good the highlight this terrible decision.

[Yellow Sun]

RAF museum in Cosford is going to scrap their Boeing 707, G-APFJ

Well, it is the RAF Museum and the RAF never operated the 707 so it isn't really an appropriate exhibit. I do not know how it arrived at Cosford, but presumably the museum was inveigled to take it and now there are no funds forthcoming to maintain and retain it, so unless an appropriate home is found for it (and funding) then it will have to go. If any enthusiasts feel strongly enough about it then they will presumably go out and find the cash to preserve these aircraft.

YS

[Germstone]

Well, it is the RAF Museum and the RAF never operated the 707
YS

sentry......................................... ;)

[Yellow Sun]

sentry.........................................

Used a development of the KC135 airframe, inception of which pre-dated the 707. Different fuselage cross section to the 707. For an account of the development of the 707 and its successors see:

Wide-Body; The making of the Boeing 747 (ISBN: 0340599839)
Irving, Clive

My original statement stands.

YS

[IB4138]

Seems the RAF and MOD have an axe to grind with civil aviation at present.
See threads on Monarch pulling out of GIB.

At the end of the day there is only one person accountable and that is Tony Bliar.

[wamwig]

Yellow Sun

E-3 and variants are developed from the 707 not the KC-135, so technically yes the RAF has operated the 707.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/e-3.htm

[wiccan]

AFAIK,
The "Civil" a/c were? owned by BA..[Belfast excepted] not the RAF...sooooo.. IF these a/c should be preserved, then the [previous] owners should cough up. :E
bb

[Tiger_mate]

I cant help thinking that the RAFM didnt get a Concorde, so they are throwing their airliners out of the cot.

All a bit sad really.......

That said, the new, and pretty gopping if the truth be known, hangar at Cosford makes the place a little crowded, and a cull of some sorts was probably required. It would have been nice for all of the airframes to find a home in a complete condition.

[Skipness One Echo]

Oh for the love of God - Tony Blair responsible for scrapping of BA707 ?
Helllllloooo earth to pprune.
BA haven't maintained the airframes for years. They are starting to deteriorate seriously and they do not belong to the RAF. Not the fault of Tony Blair.

[Albert Driver]

Anyone going to Cosford this weekend? Could you let us know what is happening to the 707?

Also can you get near the VC10 at the moment? How bad is the corrosion? Accepting that the thin fairings will be rotten, what about the main structure that can be seen?

Thanks.

[Sleeping]

I was there last week, they were working on the 707. The engines and a few panels were off, lying on the grass. Tail held up with railway sleepers. Looked a bit sad... :{

[Skipness One Echo]

I was there on Good Friday.
G-APFJ B707-436 - engines on ground, fenced off needing a respray :(
(last survivor of this mark)
G-ARVM VC10 - untouched but looking a little bedraggled but still a beauty
G-AVMO BAC111 - looking in need of TLC but still very much in one piece
G-ALWF Viscount - amazing machine - needing a bit of care and maintenence
G-ARPH Trident 1C - looked the best of the lot - so best to scrap it !
(last survivor of this mark)

The Comet and Britannia belong to the RAF I believe and look OK but need to be indoors.

Why East Fortune doesn't want the backbone of the EDI-LHR shuttle is beyond me. It looks really good for it's age. Incidentally the Belfast next to the VC10 looks immaculate.

Hurry while there's still time. You now only have photos and memories for the children...........

[Albert Driver]

SKP 1E,
I agree with your astonishment about the Trident not being wanted by East Fortune given the strong Shuttle connection. Yet RAFM Cosford now seems to be suggesting they are taking the whole 707 airframe rather than just the cockpit. Why the 707, with no local connection that I'm aware of, but not PH?
Of course that may be completely wrong, given the RAFM's previous misleading statements on what is happening.

[Tiger_mate]

http://www.artistic.flyer.co.uk/C1.jpg
http://www.artistic.flyer.co.uk/C2.jpg
http://www.artistic.flyer.co.uk/C4.jpg
http://www.artistic.flyer.co.uk/C6.jpg
The Viscount GALWF is at Duxford, the Cosford one is GAMON I think.

[Albert Driver]

Thanks TM
Looking at those photos I'm not convinced that the VC10 is too corroded to be saved. I remember seeing VC10 parts being milled out of solid metal. The reason they they were not successful commercially was because they were built too strong. I think it's just another example of the all the spin and misinformation currently being put about by the RAFM.
Work on the 707 seems to have stopped? When was the photo taken?

[Tiger_mate]

When was the photo taken?

Easter Monday 17 Apr 06

Signs on the 707 fencing do not suggest that the cockpit only is to survive, but I got the feeling that the RAFM is walking on eggs when it comes to public info about the whole thing.

I am surprised that the small collection at Manchester Intl did not get the BAC 1-11 as it was very much part of the Manchester scene in the 70s. Perhaps they have their hands full with their new (ex Heathrow) Trident, and have run out of realestate.

[DX Wombat]

DX
I am sure that no one intended to take this thread to a 'personal' level (DID WE!!). ...................So, fellow PPRUNERS, the next time a mail is posted by someone who may not have as much aviation knowledge as you, 'cut em some slack' and help them with a positive response and try not to exhibit it in a way that you know more than they do. Perhaps you do, but the person asking the question may be able to help you one day in a field that you are not perhaps so knowledgeable in.
Temps
Oops, sorry, :( I have been away and have just re-read my post and it does look like that but it wasn't my intention. You are quite right to point that out Temps so I apologise if I offended anyone. Now, who is going to start the ball rolling for a museum for Commercial Aircraft as Temps suggested earlier?

[Skipness One Echo]

Albert Driver
The gentleman at Cosford on Good Friday also told me East Fortune was taking the whole 707 but the statement on the fence says they only get the nose.
B707 G-APFJ has a long connection with Scotland as it flew transatlantic through Prestwick with BA and BOAC. G-ARVM used to be based at Prestwick as the VC10 fleet training machine. It was an amazing aircraft. A true historic loss. Of course G-AMOG was one of two BOAC (later BA ) Viscounts based at Prestwick (alongwith G-AMON, operated by Cambrian on BA feeder routes to EDI and BFS). So they all have strong Scottish connections.

HINT HINT - TOO IMPORTANT TO SCRAP !!!

[Tiger_mate]

This would make a nice scene replicated at a future East Fortune:
http://photos.airliners.net/photos/middle/9/3/6/0201639.jpg

[Albert Driver]

National Museums of Scotland, of which East Fortune is part, have just confirmed that only the cockpit and front fuselage of the 707 is being saved despite what the RAFM Cosford notice said. NMS also confirmed similar plans for the Trident.
So there is no reprieve and the 707 and the Trident will meet their ends very soon. All that is still to be decided is how much of the VC10 Brooklands will be able, or want, to save.
I wonder if Cosford will treat its hoped-for RAF VC10 with as much contempt as it showed VM, having first exploited it to boost the takings then let it rot.
I also wonder how long it will be until BA decides it can't afford its little museum at Heathrow and trashes that collection of artifacts too.

Barbarians all.

[Skipness One Echo]

The BOAC scene would have been priceless and unique. Instead let's have an unrecognisable decapitated aeroplane. I seem to be misunderstanding the meaning of the word "museum"here. They should all be bloody ashamed.

[go_edw]

Four more BA planes land at flight museum

http://heritage.scotsman.com/news.cfm?id=512112006

[BEagle]

I now have the truth.

The decision to re-locate all the aircraft in the british airways collection was made by british airways following a review of their condition and the support provided for their maintenance. The Trustees of the Royal Air Force Museum were no longer able to provide space for these aircraft without proper support being provided by ba and covered accommodation was becoming urgent to ensure their long term preservation. A joint review was carried out between ba and the RAF Museum and the decision to re-locate the aircraft was made by ba.

ba have already started the work of destroying the Trident 1C, I am informed, and only the cockpit section will be going to East Fortune. The VC10 is still intact, but only the cockpit and front fuselage section will be going to Brooklands.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Well, I've voted AGAINST 'Museum of Flight' winning the Gulbenkian Prize due to the fact that, by accepting the aircraft from Cosford, an unique collection will be dispersed and some aircraft cut up for exhibit instead of remaining in their current complete state.

Quite right BEAgle :ok: as a third party offering at least some chance of escape, and preservation for the nation, they should have just let BA and the RAFM scrap them all. Then they could take the moral high ground !!

[Tempsford]

Statement from RAF Museum:

'We strongly believe that long term conservation cannot be assured in the UK climate if aircraft are kept outside'

Source Flypast Magazine June 2006 Page 4

Also an article in the above issue on the disposal of the BA Collection at Cosford.

Temps

[JamesA]

Thank you for the update regarding the fate of these machines BEagle.
I note that once again museums are only interested in the 'sharp ends'. Does no one realise there are other interesting parts on an aeroplane? Take the VC10, here is a design dating back some fifty years. I think the rear fuselage with engines and empenage would make a very interesting exhibit. Showing how the engines and tail are mounted on the rear fuselage, does credit to the design team, even today. It could be displayed with the skin removed from one side thereby showing the two beams and three angled frames supporting the engines and tail assembly respectively.

I hope something can be done to save these aircraft, I, like many others feel a lot of history will be lost if they end up in a scrap yard as appears is their destiny. If there is somebody out there who has any say in the matter, I can offer a covered home for the Conway engines for the foreseeable future - of course there is a snag - they will have to be trucked to Belgium.

[JW411]

Am I the only person on pprune to be getting a bit p*ssed off by the folks who are blaming this debacle on the RAF Museum?

Let's face it, British Airways are forever telling us that they are the most profitable airline in the world and yet they cannot raise a little finger to save their own bl**dy heritage. (Do you remember the Argonaut, the Comet and the Trident survivors at Heathrow)?

BA should have been looking after their airframes with proper funding since the very beginning. They could easily have found their own site and not have relied on squatters rights at Cosford.

My main interest is in Belfast XR371 and if she had been threatened by one of these squatters then I would have been very upset. The RAF Museum is an RAF Museum and not a convenient park for the most profitable airline in the world.

What a contrast to South African Airways: I will admit that the SAA historic flight has been banished to Swartkop for a few years but they are now back at Jan Smutts. (My old co-pilot flew the Ju-52 back in there a few months ago - No.12 in the hold would you believe)?

You will note that I used the term "flew the Ju-52". They also have flying DC-3s and DC-4s.

BA could not even manage to keep a Viscount flying even if they had a fire burning underneath their ar*e.

The whole reason this wonderful collection is coming apart is entirely because of the complete apathy of British Airways and absolutely no one else.

The RAF Museum has been more than patient and the modern Royal Air Force (thanks to Tony and his crooked mates) is hurting wose than I have ever seen.

[BEagle]

Yes, the spineless beancounters at ba with no interest in their historical heritage are indeed to blame for the whole sad affair.

Latest news is that the destruction of the Trident and Boeing 707 will have been completed by 25th May; the wreckers had to stop work on the 707 due the wet ground.

Regarding the other 3 aircraft, the Viscount is scheduled to go during the period 21 May to 19 June, followed next by the BAC 1-11 from 19 June to 18 July. Finally, they plan to destroy the VC10 in the period 14 August to 29 August.....

Only the cockpit and some of the forward fuselage sections of the Trident and VC10 will survive. For the responsibility of ordering the wilful destruction of such unique survivng examples of their history, ba should be thoroughly ashamed.

I intend NEVER to fly with ba! Incidentally, although the RAFM have replied to my e-mails, I have heard nothing from [email protected] in response to my e-mails. Has anyone else had a reply?

I guess we must draw our own conclusions from the lack of ba response...

[Rallye Driver]

It's not just their aviation heritage that BA don't give a d@mn about. It's the whole of British aviation.

They have been at the forefront of this bogus exercise by the airlines complaining about subsidising GA too much. The result of this 'consultation' is massive increases in charges to the GA sector and airfield operators. They are also on record as saying that a collapse of ATPL training in the UK because of these increases doesn't bother them as they don't have to recruit pilots here anyway.

You only have to look at other major airlines which maintain 'historic flights' to see the difference. Lufthansa, for example, makes regular appearances at Duxford's Flying Legends with their aircraft, and the JU52 also does pleasure flights.

i wonder how many expense account lunches it would have taken to pay for the Cosford aircraft to be maintained? But they appear on a different bit of the balance sheet and senior management need their incentives, don't they.

Richard Branson sponsored part of the insurance to get B17 Sally B back in the air last year, BA scrap their historic aircraft. Game, set and match to Virgin. BA ought to get some new PR advisors, they are going to need them!

RD :*

[Tempsford]

To clarify my stance,
My comments about keeping aircraft outside long term at museums in the UK was not directed at any organisation in particular and should be considered as a generic statement.

Temps

[Skipness One Echo]

Can anything be done to try and save these priceless aircraft?
Is it all too late? If there is something constructive that I can do please give me a heads up?
Please.

[Albert Driver]

The one aircraft that is still under negotiation is the VC10.
Brooklands wants more than just the front fuselage but not, at the moment (as far as I can tell) the whole thing.
Get on to Brooklands and add your request to all the others that they try and negotiate to acquire the whole aircraft.
Not saying there's much more than a ghost of a chance but while it still stands.....

[Albert Driver]

...........Yes, I know they have one, but not a _real_ one that used to wear a gold dickie-bird on a blue tail. They need lots of new spares. They've just put a Concorde back together again - so they've proved they're a very clever lot who could handle the job. They've got lots of money (well, they know people who've got lots of money - you've got to have lots of money to live in Weybridge!)
.......and anyway they built 'em so they must like 'em !

So, Brooklands are the people to talk to.

[Mooney]

How much would it take to keep these aircraft at Cosford? And could a fund raiser not be set up??

Tragic.

[Mooney]

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1040910/M/
Trident being broken up............

[Opssys]

Like an itch you just know you shouldn't scratch I had to click on the link provided by Mooney. So sad!

So other than a an incredibly remote possibly of Brooklands being able save more of the VC10 than the Cockpit, this particular battle between aviation heritage on one side and corporate apathy allied to bean counters saving pennies whilst wasting millions is over.

But have we 'learned anything' from this. Other than rage against events what will 'we' as PPRuners be able to do next time (and there will be a next time) that would have a positive effect?

OK emails and letters to those with influence may help, but normally these require time to 'build momentum' and often this is a lot longer than the time between an annoucement and irrevocable destruction.

I have no answers (god I wish I did) and the feeling of impotence during this affair not helped by knowing that in this particular case the BA Board has never grasped the importance and commercial possibilities of Corporate Heritage since they were privatised.

From the posts in this thread there have been many suggestions with merit, but in most cases they required: Time, Organisation and Finally Money.

Although Time is never sufficient it is a variable.

Organisation - 'We are a group who correspond' we are not an organisation.

Money - Without the first two this is hypothetical and conservation is ongoing, so simply applying for lottery funding won't cut it.

I am probably going to be accused of being defeatist (again :-) but I am just trying to set out the problem and really hoping someone has a viable solution to take into the next battle.
DIH

[treadigraph]

I don't know what to say....

G-ARVM. The VC-10 that did the low - low - beat up of White Watham? I think? Who cares, she's a unique survivor?

[Skipness One Echo]

In my view, they have lost any right to call themsaleves a museum. Senseless, shortsighted and moronic vandalism by people who ought to and could have done much better. The sight of G-APRPH being destroyed is tragic. Fools all of them.

[HZ123]

If i learn anything from this thread it is to visit such places as Cosford and do not put it off. My son who is keen on aviation, I have been promising for years to take him to Cos, to late now and having flown on the SSC I promised we would do that and it beat me to it. Working at BA these actions are regretable but the a/c have been there a long time and I fail to see why BA should be expected to pay for them forever?

[irishair2001]

Have just returned from a day trip to Cosford,I can confirm that the forward fuselage of the 707 is on sleepers and surrounded by 2 of its engine pods and a few bits and pieces,the rest of the aircraft is gone,all that is left of the Trident is the bare cockpit section and it is in the staff car park near the Dutch Neptune,no other parts of the Trident where to be found,when I made an enquiry as to were the Trident was,I got a sarcastic reply from the guy I asked,he said "The Trident had been cut up into little pieces and was gone"

[snooky]

HERE'S (http://www.museum-explorer.org.uk/show.php?page=exhibit&q=news_item^id=1250&e=231&t=5) a link to the destruction of the last trident 1.

[Opssys]

Before clicking the link Snooky provided I took a few Dried Frog Pills to ensure calm: All I can say is Mark Sibley (the photographer) has provided an almost forensic record of the Crime scene. So sad so very sad :{

[Skipness One Echo]

.........and then there were none.

[Cavallier]

This is awful news! I had been to Cosford so many times as a kid and as an adult, and the joy I had at looking around and touching these fantastic airliners will now be lost on the next generation of aviation lovers.
A very sad day indeed!
The Cav:(

[Albert Driver]

Everyone is sad.
With respect, what does being sad achieve?
The Trident and 707 may have been destroyed but the VC10 still awaits the JCBs.
Have you communicated your views to the RAFM? Its Trustees? Chairman? BA? BA Heritage Director? Brooklands? (it wants some more VC10 parts) Sent Brooklands a donation so that they can afford more than just the cockpit?

[JamesA]

A D
Along similar lines to you, I have suggested that the British enthusiasts start lobbying their MPs. It is getting towards election time in Britain, and I think all members will be looking for all the help they can get to keep/win a seat. In spite of what people think of their MP, he/she is there to represent the elector's views. I think that there is a fair spread of constituencies represented by the people disgusted by the actions of the Cosford museum and BA over the fate of the aircraft that perhaps someone will listen and perhaps whisper in an ear somewhere to the good. Unfortunately, for those of us outside U K, I cannot think of any benevolent listeners who could help the cause. I just hope that England stops going the way of the U S disposing of its heritage.

[TwinAisle]

I've been reading this thread with a mixture of disbelief and sadness as it has developed over the weeks, but I think Albert Driver makes a vital point. I'm not sad anymore, I am angry, and have communicated my thoughts to the powers that be at BA and Cosford.

But I think what we need to have is a longer look at what we want to store and what we should sacrifice. Do we really need three Vulcans? Do we need four Concordes? Or a dozen Spitfires? If resources are scarce, and space is limited, then surely it makes more sense to keep the last remaining, or single significant example, of a type. I would gladly lose all but one of the Concordes if the remaining one is properly preserved, and the remainder of the money and space was used to look after a VC10 (for example).

The motor industry does this way better IMHO. If you take a trip to the excellent motor industry heritage museum in Gaydon, you'll see the first Mini and the last Mini - not every colour and variation under the sun. They are clearly working to a (perhaps at first glance ruthless) policy that keeps the costs under control whilst maintaining things of significance. It's obviously a tough call, but the museum does give the impression of telling a clear story, rather than being, as sadly most aviation museums seem, to be a kleptomaniac's scrapyard. No strategy, just "if it has wings, grab it and park it in a field".

The old Department of National Heritage, long since wound up into Prescott's former megalithic department of Culture, Media and Sport, should be called to account as well. It cannot be right for items of such significance to be turned into coke tins and razor blades like this; if the National Gallery decided it was going to bin a Turner because maintaining it was getting to be a drag, fuses would blow (or at least I hope they would) in the Ministry. Why should our technological heritage be any different?

TA

[HZ123]

Well said 'Twin Aisle' thinking with the head not the heart and clearly that must be the way forward in the future?

[TwinAisle]

Thanks HZ.. I was sort of expecting a flaming for daring to suggest we deliberately turn some airframes into beer cans, but I was serious.

East Fortune seems to be the up and coming civil aviation museum. What should we put in it? Duxford seems to be the natural home of the USAF, and perhaps Cosford for the RAF. Now we need a GA museum (for the sake of spacing, somewhere in the North of England?) and an industry museum, devoted to the people and companies that built the aircraft. Filton?

Thoughts?

[mjtibbs]

Anyone know when the BAC 1-11 will be moved up to East Fortune and what the mode of transport will be?

Also when was the aircraft painted "lothian region"? (and why?)

cheers

--Mike

http://photos.airliners.net/photos/photos/9/6/6/1063669.jpg

[Skipness One Echo]

Has been Lothian Region since before 1990. THis aircraft still carries the same paint as it left BA with. Flew GLA-CDG Dec 1992, in this just before it was retired. Now I feel old.......:)

[mjtibbs]

Has been Lothian Region since before 1990. THis aircraft still carries the same paint as it left BA with. Flew GLA-CDG Dec 1992, in this just before it was retired. Now I feel old.......:)


thanks for that :)

[Groundloop]

Also when was the aircraft painted "lothian region"? (and why?)


Why?

For a period BA named there aircraft by fleet. eg 757s were named after castles, 747s after cities, 737s after rivers, etc. The 111 fleet was named after counties (and their Scottish administrative equivalents). Hence, Lothian region.

[Skipness One Echo]

Can anyone advise where we are with this? I know that the Trident and 707 were destroyed but what of the VC10?

[primreamer]

Scandalous though the break up of this fine collection is, all is not lost. I understand that the forward fuselage and nose/cockpit sections of both the Trident and 707 have been saved by the Museum of Flight at East Fortune, near Edinburgh and are to be transported for display there. Additionally, the complete airframes of both the Viscount and 1-11 have been dismantled, (properly, not with a blowtorch) and are on their way to East Fortune too.
Not sure of timescales as to when the aircraft will be viewable though.

[blue up]

The slicing of VC10s at St Athan starts on Monday. There are 3, if I remember correctly.

[Jhieminga]

Different VC10 blue up. The ones at St. Athan are three ex-RAF airframes which are beyond saving already. We're talking about G-ARVM at RAF Cosford which has now lost its outer wings already and is being prepared for more indignities.

[Rigga]

Having just seen this thread;
I was given the pleasure of taking some engineering apprentices around Cosford in July, with a sort of access permission, to show the new boys examples of the development of aircraft, engines and their (mainly visible) systems. I can confirm that the Brit and the Comet did seem to be well separated from the building site that was the BA Collection.
Incidentally, (IMHO) the Brit was best used as the demonstrator of many types of well advanced corrosion and vegetation. It won’t be about for that long either!
Rigga

[Jhieminga]

The fuselage of VC10 G-ARVM has arrived at its new home at the Brooklands Museum. It has been divided into two sections by taking apart an old manufacturing joint (a first!) before transportation. More about this here: http://www.vc10.net/news.html

http://www.vc10.net/images/VM_arrival1_small.jpg

[BEagle]

Nothing to celebrate.

Dismembered fuselage and cockpit sections are to airframe collections what stuffed animal heads are to zoos.

The villain of the piece, predictably, is ba. They have no interest whatsoever in their heritage and refused to lift a finger to preserve the Cosford historic collection.

Compare ba with Lufthansa. LH not only keeps a pre-war Ju 52 in passenger carrying airworthiness state, but also has a small fleet of historic trainer aircraft lovingly preserved. Their Me 108 Taifun has just had a down-to-the-metal respray. They also painted an A321 (and a Cheyenne) in 'retro' paint schemes to celbrate their 50th post-war anniversary. Can you imagine the faceless suits at waterworld sanctioning anything similar at ba.....?

[treadigraph]

Presumably at least some of the folk at the top of Lufthansa actually once flew aeroplanes... Plus I think the Ju-52 goes a fair way towards earning its keep, bit like Mike Collett's lovely historic fleet. Don't sell Mike, Air Atlantique is one of the best things about UK aviation.

[Skylion]

Unfortunately from 1983 onwards any interest in or liking for aircraft has been almost a taboo in BA management and could be distinctly career limiting. Ayling is said to have professed to having absolutely no interest in them,- and indeed a dislike for aircraft or anyone who talked much about them other than in the purely business sense. As result the unique Argonaut and the last BA Comet 4 were in turn assigned to the LHR fire dump. Since the Headquarters moved out of the Hatton Cross site in 1999/2000 most of its incumbents, other than when travelling, have seen little of aircraft, crews or ground staff and there is amongst them little interest in aviation per se. Businesswise it will be argued that that is no bad thing ,but in this environment the Cosford disaster was predictable and has been presented by the company as a positive contribution to preservation. They probably believe it too.

[WHBM]

Ayling is said to have professed to having absolutely no interest in them,- and indeed a dislike for aircraft or anyone who talked much about them .......
....... and look where that got him :E

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

To be fair, BA are an airline, a PLC, operating in a competitive environment and answerable to their shareholders. There is no obligation on them to contribute company resources to the preservation of ex-fleet aeroplanes and the shareholders might legitimatly object if the airline did that.

A parallell can be seen in railway preservation. The most the preservationists can hope for is that the railway companies might donate time-expired locomotives and stock to them, but often this doesn't happen, and the preservationists have to outbid the scrap man for these. There is certainly no financial support for railway preservation from rail companies - the most they'll do is occasionally paint a locomtive in 'heritage' livery.

The railway preservation movement is self-supporting, with many voluteers and preserved railways run as businesses to remain viable. Though we, as aircraft enthusiats, may wish it were otherwise, why shouldn't the same apply to aircraft preservation?

[Albert Driver]

....... and look where that got him :E

.....and look where he got BA.

If an airline loses its understanding and respect for the medium in which it is operating, it can expect to receive a sharp reminder. Remember Railtrack.