View Full Version : Criminal Conviction A Problem?


Naughty Boy
28th Feb 2001, 03:18
I am just about to put down a large amount of cash to do my CPL/IR. The problem is that I have a few convictions. The last one was 10 years ago and they are the result of a mis-spent youth. I saw a post earlier concerning someone with a drink drive conviction and the grief he has had in obtaining employment.

What I need to know is will I have trouble getting a job with 6 (spent) convictions.



dougyboy
17th Nov 2001, 02:46
Hi,
Hope someone here can help with this one.
I have been considering laying down the cash for an integrated ATPL, but was wondering if the fact that I have a criminal record would affect my chances of a job afterwards.
I have 2 convictions, both of which happened over 8 years ago.
Does the Rehabilitation of offenders act apply in this case (Spent conviction)?
Does anyone have any idea whether the job of pilot is currently exempted from the act (Like solicitors, traffic wardens etc.)? or whether spent convictions must be declared when applying for a job as pilot.
If not currently exempt, then what are the chances that this may happen in the future due to recent events.
What would the implications be if flying to visa destinations etc.?
Thanks

Base leg
17th Nov 2001, 16:12
http://www.emplaw.co.uk/free/data/026096.htm http://www.york.ac.uk/admin/persnl/jobs/pack/spcon.htm
should answer your questions

[ 17 November 2001: Message edited by: Base leg ]

dougyboy
17th Nov 2001, 16:40
Thanks base leg, those were very useful links.
According to the employment law site, pilots do NOT have to declare spent convictions, but do you reckon this is likely to change in the future, in light of Sept 11.

Spoonbill
18th Nov 2001, 00:10
Doughboy - I know little about the legal side of it, but I used to be involved in recruitment in the industry, and this sort of thing cropped up reasonably regularly. What you don't put on a CV cannot be considered, but if you're asked the question on an application form I respectfully suggest that you answer it candidly. Unless the convictions were for a major crime, or dishonesty and you want to be a beancounter, (although the 2 go together sometimes :D ), I would hope that the employer would consider all your plus points before taking the offences into consideration, if at all.
Best of luck.

scroggs
18th Nov 2001, 00:19
I'd advise that you don't volunteer anything unless asked, so long as the covictions are 'spent' for the purposes of the act, but that there is little to be gained by concealing these convictions if the company asks about your legal history. Honesty tends to be the best policy, once asked.

Davaar
18th Nov 2001, 20:16
Doughyboy,I don't know what you should do, because facts are always different. Years ago, though, I heard of an MP here who asked for the Speaker's permission to say a few words to the House.

He told the members that he had just received a letter, and he proposed to read it. The sender had discovered that the MP had a criminal record and he intended to expose him unless he paid blackmail.

I have to tell the House, said the MP, that the allegation is completely true. X years ago, when I was Y years old, I unsuccessfully attempted armed robbery. I was caught, tried, convicted, and imprisoned. In jail I thought a lot about what I had done, and resolved never to do anything like it again.

On release I was able to find a modest job. I became interested in politics. I joined a party and was active in constituency work. I ran for nomination and was selected. I ran for election and was elected. Since my election I have done my work in the Commons as well and as hard as I can. Not since that conviction years ago have I had the slightest brush with the law. There is no need for the letter writer to expose me. I am telling you myself.

That is not a quotation, but the gist. He sat down to an ovation. New business?

I would not run around volunteering information on whatever happened long ago, but this anecdote would guide me if I were asked. There is no guarantee that the reaction would always be so positive, but that is life, and it brings many unsought difficulties of many kinds. If when asked you do not deny it, no one can add a new deception to a long-dead crime.

Good luck.

dougyboy
20th Nov 2001, 04:01
Thanks for the advice all.
I think if I was asked on an application form whether or not I had a criminal record, if the Rehabilitation of offenders act applied then I would deny it, as the act allows and encourages this. The problem is that at the moment 14 categories of jobs are excluded from the act whereby convictions must be mentioned. These range from Taxi Driver, to Solicitor. I wonder if after the Sept 11 attacks, the act might be ammended to include pilots in this list. Any opinions?

=Joe Bolt, Nothing serious, minor theft at 16 (Prank involving removing meat from a butchers freezer) and assault at 19 (Drunken student fight)

foghorn
20th Nov 2001, 05:17
I got arrested for being Drunk and Disorderly at 17, an offence now long since spent under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act.

Anyway, I only got an official caution - most application forms are worded 'have you ever been convicted of a criminal offence' - implying a trip to court rather than an official ticking off.

The actual offence was more comical than serious - a product of too much lager coupled with bored local cops looking for someone to book on a mid-week evening in summer.

foggy.

[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: foghorn ]

TomThai
11th Sep 2002, 16:09
Hi,

I'm in the early stages of progressing through a PPL course in the UK and am considering completing the remaining flying hours in America followed by a JAA ATPL course and then hopefully onward into a commercial piloting career.

Unfortunately, some foolish teenage behaviour 12 years ago involving the theft of a boat and a trailer left me with a criminal record and a requirement to partake in 90 hours of community service.

I am trying to establish what bearing my criminal record will have on my career aspirations, with regard to training in America, gaining employment with UK airlines and working elsewhere in the world as a pilot.

I have spoken to one UK airline who have told me 'a criminal record would not rule me out and that they would consider my circumstances on application', but I need to establish exactly where I stand prior to forking out £30/40k and spending 2 years training, only to find I cannot get a job.

Can anyone offer any advice around my circumstances, or point me in the direction of someone who can?

Regards,

Tom:confused:

Father Mulcahy
11th Sep 2002, 18:10
TomThai,

This is going from memory and my references are all at work, so double check it with the home office website... homeoffice.gov.uk or something like that.

The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act says that for someone who is sentenced to 30 months in da gaol or less (which covers your community service order) has to disclose the conviction for up to 10 years. After the 10 year period the crime is "spent" and the slate is effectively wiped clean and you do not normally have to disclose the offence.

Now there is a currently a review of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act in motion, I seem to recall however that it is mainly being directed at youth crime, so I doubt it will retrospectively alter dates/sentencing times etc.

So basically, your conviction is spent and should not be a factor. Most application forms will include a brief section on the act also mentioning that parking tickets and minor traffic violations (i.e. those that do not end up in court) can be forgotten.

As for access/employment/student visa in the States not my field sorry. Speak to their consulate.

For definitive advice talk to your solicitor and explain the EXACT circumstances of the offence.

FM

edited for speeelllinggg

NTM
11th Sep 2002, 20:58
Since you mention the U.S for flight training, I suggest you first check with your local U.S embassy regarding your visa.
Since 9/11, the issue of visas for flight training are under great scrutiny. INS does an extensive background check.
Your criminal record may be a problem for them.
So check first to see if you can obtain the visa !!
Also look into Canada, they may be a bit more understanding.
Good Luck.;)

Memetic
16th Apr 2004, 09:54
For those of you applying for jobs, or going through vetting this from the BBC at : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3630971.stm
may be in interest - or concern!

"Nearly 200 people have been wrongly accused by the Criminal Records Bureau of having criminal records.
The names of 193 people were mistakenly linked with convictions held on the police national computer (PNC), BBC Radio Five Live has learned.

In some cases the names of those being vetted by the bureau were similar or identical to those of actual criminals.

In others, the criminals had given someone else's personal details to the authorities to avoid a police record. "

Pilot Pete
16th Apr 2004, 10:17
Also from the BBC report;...The mistakes of the Liverpool-based agency, .... so not sure if this applies to us as as far as I am aware we all apply to Disclosure Scotland, a separate organisation? Still worrying, but I guess inevitable with any such system. I trust the clear up rate after 'appeal' sorts these sort of problems out................

PP

Unwell_Raptor
16th Apr 2004, 10:21
If you are worried about this, you can apply to your local police for a Data Protection Act certificate that will show the information that is currently held about you. It costs £10 or so, but if you check now, you might prevent future problems.

alpar80
29th Oct 2004, 13:32
How does a criminal record carrying misdemeanors affect someone who is going to apply to an airline?

alpar80
29th Oct 2004, 16:32
The crimes were petty, one for off roading in a prohibited area and the other for taking a street sign which was hit by a truck on the side of the road to put in my dorm room.

I am wondering if I should go the measure through hiring a lawyer to get these charges expunged.

TRon
31st Oct 2004, 09:47
Depends if you gota caution. The full list of offences that will bar you from gaining an airside licence are available on the DfoT's website.

Roadside might come under theft, I dont know....

Worth having a look though. No doubt some kind soul will post the actual link here.

TRon

APRIANA
30th Dec 2004, 10:55
Hello all,

I'm a PPL pilot with 80 hrs TT and I'm looking to start my ATPL distance learning course some time in February.

Five years ago I was convicted for Drink Driving and also admonished on an Assult / Breach of the peace charge. I was wondering if this would stop an airline employing me?

I'm intending to fund the ATPL myself (flying hours included), so I'm not looking to go through the airline sponsorship route, although I very much doubt that they would choose someone with a past record over someone with no Criminal past! The main worry I have is that an airline would steer clear of a candidate like me, what do you all think?

Looking at it from the point that I was dedicated enough to self sponsor and pass (hopefully), I'm thinking that the airlines may see it as I'm seeing it, or do you think I'm wasting my time?


I'm, like most, completley willing to pay for MCC, type rating etc.

All responses welcome!

Thanks

Biscuit
30th Dec 2004, 11:03
There's some info here that might help:

http://www.disclosurescotland.com/airside.htm

APRIANA
30th Dec 2004, 11:11
Thanks Biscuit,

I just received one of them last week, all it outlines is the date and type of conviction.

I'm thinking that there must be a law which states that convictions are spent after a certain period of time? If so the airlines can't hold the conviction against me, but this is the real world and I know that this may happen.

Thanks again.

Biscuit
30th Dec 2004, 11:23
I think after a certain amount of time you don't have to declare convictions to an employer but you'll have to check this. Maybe give Disclosure Scotland a call and ask them.

There's a bit more info on the 'Spent Convictions' section on the CTC website:

http://www.ctcaviation.com/wings/faq.htm

APRIANA
30th Dec 2004, 11:37
Excellent!

Going by the CTC website it looks as if I'm fine, however I'll just have to keep my fingers crossed when interview time comes up.

Thanks.

scroggs
30th Dec 2004, 19:22
You need to check the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act for the specific crimes you have been convicted of. As far as I am aware, Driving While Under the Influence is a civil offence and is unlkely to prevent your employment, but Assault is a criminal offence which may very well do. Your main problem is not going to be getting past the selection stage for an employer, it's going to be getting through the hoops you now need to jump through to get an airside pass. Disclosure Scotland do the Criminal Records Check for all employees requiring a pass to a BAA airfield; they should be able to tell you when a conviction is spent for that particular purpose.

Scroggs

APRIANA
31st Dec 2004, 09:32
Thanks for all the input!

I understand the point that Vlad has made, however I know that I'm completely in control now, be it with alcohol or fighting.

From what you all have said, I'm sure I've just got to concentrate on the ATPL now.

I've just had a look at the Rehabilition of offenders act and it states that my conviction is now spent, I'll now check to see if I can get an airside pass issued - hopefully all should be well.




Regards

scroggs
31st Dec 2004, 10:56
Well done. Just in case Vlad is under any misapprehension here, a 'spent' conviction does not have to be mentioned to anyone, ever. The rehabilitation canditions for the offence are satisfied, and the individual is free to rejoin society with no blemish attached to their name. You might do well to remember that.

Scroggs

jonnoboy
31st Mar 2005, 11:31
I was hoping someone may be able to shed some light on the situation i'm in.

I currently hold a PPL, but am now thinking of working towards my CPL. My problem is that I was convicted for drink driving about 5 years ago, and although it doesn't effect obtaining a CPL, or perhaps work with smaller operations, I am worried that some of the larger operations may have a zero tolerance policy to this (which would be understandable), and thus I might not be able to get work.

Any sensible feedback would be greatly appreciated.

tom24
31st Mar 2005, 13:10
Zulu Yankee you're 0.01% right!

An airline will ask you to obtain a 'basic disclosure' http://www.disclosurescotland.co.uk . This disclosure will list any convictions against your name received within the last 5 years. A conviction for DD only stays on record for 5 years, so by the time you apply to the airlines nobody will be able to find out about the incident. I thinks its mainly to do with being able to get an airside pass, but DD is not even a disqualifying offence for the purposes of the pass anyway.

Just get on with your training mate!

jonnoboy
4th Apr 2005, 12:47
Thanks for the info.

I am currently hour building to get to 150 hour mile stone, then I will get my CPL. It is nice to know that there is some hope in getting a job someday!

Cheers

and the chap said
4th Apr 2005, 17:26
jonnoboy,

Worry not, tom24 is absolutely correct. After 5 years your conviction becomes 'spent'. The rehabilitations act of 1974 clearly states that of you are asked the question "have you ever been convicted of a criminal offence", you are allowed to say "no sir, I have not" if your conviction is spent. This is true whether it be on an apllication form or during interview.

You have nothing to fear, airlines will never find out unless you really want them to. Even then, I guarantee you it will not rule you out...

So as tom said, get on with your training and good luck.

J

Number Cruncher
5th Apr 2005, 16:26
Big Grecian has got it close

BULLSH*T

Interesting comments Meeb. Of all the 50 or so airline application forms Iíve browsed at in my time, about 2 of them ask whether you have any endorsements on your licence. Go look at BA's form.....

If it does so happen that you have to hand a copy of your driving licence to the admin people, by that time Iím sure you would have been accepted into a job, and if they have given you a job, Iím sure they are not going to take it back from you for some silly mistake you made years and years ago.......

Grecian, boy do I hope I never have to sit in a cockpit with you sometime in the future, or even come into contact with you full stop!

Some people think that pilots are Gods - they are not. They are normal, nothing special people who Iím sure have made mistakes in their past. I did an ATPL course and 10 of the blokes on that course were the biggest drinkers I have ever met - bloody top blokes as well! They had what is called a personality, something a lot of people/lurkers round here obviously do not have.

For what its worth, a friend of mine was called for selection for the Atlantique sponsorship scheme - at the time he had a DD convition that was 3 years old, so ask them how much it matters.

Maybe somebody in the know can clear this up for us, rather than us all having to listen to trash, off the ball comments from people who are obviously not in the know.

Easy Glider
5th Apr 2005, 16:54
God a lot of s**T is talked on this site!!!!! A DUI conviction 5 years ago will make f*** all difference to you getting or not getting a job. I have worked for 5 companies and NEVER been asked to produce a driving licence or disclose how many points/convictions there are on it. the last company I worked for, there were 2 pilots with recent DUI convictions that I knew of. The only people who were upset about that were their wives who had to drive them to and from work!!!

SmilingKnifed
5th Apr 2005, 19:17
Following on from Jonno's post, I'm waiting on a DUI conviction (pleading guilty) for a first offence in the states. I'll be returning to the UK in November to try the job market.

Any advice or opinions (other than don't be so bloody stupid again) will be much appreciated.

SK

silverknapper
5th Apr 2005, 21:29
Quite an emotive subject. I just tried researching on the web to give a more constructive answer but it's surprisingly difficult to pin down an exact answer.
On hire car subject - You won't get one with a DD conviction. Period.
As for spent convictions that is an interesting argument, I don't think it's black and white. Certain jobs are exempt from the normal disclosure rules. The two off the top of my head are police and teaching. If you're a pervert, no matter when it was you'll never get a job teaching. Same if you were a thief, no matter when, unless you can prove some exceptional circumstance you will never be a plod.
In todays heightened security times, I would imagine airlines are allowed a bit more carte blance into researching your past. Saying it was five years ago so it doesn't matter may not be sufficient. And remember an airline doesn't issue your airside pass. But then would they consider DD to be such a terrible thing 5 years on. I can't see it in the list of disqualifying criteria.
I don't want to sound negative but research it further. Write to BAA about getting a pass, write to disclosure also. I hope it works out for you, but ignore the hot heads and take a calculated approach to your research. It could save you long term pain.

Cheers

TRon
8th Apr 2005, 18:22
Airlines do issue their own passes, albeit only two in the UK BA and easyJet.

All that is required for an airside pass is a Basic Disclosure certificate with no offences that render you unable to gain an airside pass. Click Here (http://www.britishairwaysjobs.com/criminal/basic.pdf) for the disqualifiying ones. On there is not DUI, as someone previously stated in the post.

You can now, by law, say 'I have never been convicted of an offence', and again as others state, certain professions demand you and can request your full history. At present Airlines do not insist on your spent history for this.

In short you are home and dry mate, despite what these guys say and if any recuirter says he wants to know if you have ever regardless of an offence being spent been done for DUI then that is in breach of your rights.

My brother had the same concern when he joined a major corp. (non-flying) and they wanted to put him on the pool car insurance. After much musing he just told them and they said it was in confidence, and they have several people on there with the same. In short, plenty in the same boat mate!

We can all get excited about this subject as it is one quite close to a lot of our hearts at the moment, with all the breathalising going on airside, but the long of the short of it is, you did the crime, you've done the time now get on with getting a job and dont listen to some people on here who love to get excited about how great they are and you arent.

FLYING COUNSEL
23rd Aug 2005, 14:21
Just thought that anybody doing searches on this area in the future may find the following link useful. It provides a very useful summary of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, 1974.

'rehabilitation%20of%20offenders%20act%201974']Click here. (http://www.disclosure.gov.uk/docs/pdf/ROA%20Leaflet.pdf#search=[/url)

Bealzebub
23rd Aug 2005, 17:34
The link that Flying Counsel has given above is useful reading. Of particular note to some contributors is the section on exceptions to the act. One exception is where national security may be at risk. The reason for the disclosure scotland requirement is because of the threat posed to national security. Notwithstanding the contents of other acts it might be unwise to take supreme refuge in the R of OA in such a case. The Disclosure scotland website does however make it clear that the R of OA does apply to basic disclosures.

SmilingKnifed
23rd Aug 2005, 18:08
Following on from my previous post, I'm relieved to say that the charges against me were dropped. That said, I'd advise anyone to not even contemplate doing anything as stupid as I did. It puts your career into perspective!

Climbs down from high horse.

Harves
23rd Aug 2005, 23:48
Jonno, I was out at Bae Systems in 2001 and you would be gob smacked by how many people are in your shoes.
On one of our bonding sessions at the bar I was amazed to find out that just at my table there were 3 guys with drink driving convictions all within 5 years.

The previous posts between them all have valid points I feel but the reality of the situation seem to be less scary than you would think.

One of the younger guys at the table was extremely worried by the situation because he could not tell anyone about it including his family, so I offered to look into it with him.

The first thing I looked at was the reabilitation of offenders act and it stated that the conviction would remain on the database for such a time as any fine, imprisonment or disqualification for driving offences remained..after this it was removed.

Again it is true that it will indeed remain on your driving license for 11 years.....I belive that this would be the crux for me, because it is true that some airlines will want too see that ...who knows what might happen then....I suspect absolutely nothing, but even if it did there would be other airlines who would never ask to see it anyway.

Back to the guys around the table..I have kept in touch with one....guess what he is flying ATR's for a reputable firm now and never had a problem atall and I suspect his conviction actually still showed up....the other two have not yet had the chance to know if it would be a problem unfortunately.

I guess in my long winded way...I am saying that in my experience of seeing a few guys in this situation the liklihood of it becoming an issue after 5 years appears very slim and can then be circumvented anyway.

One final irony that may make a few people smile.....when we phoned the CAA for advice on my colleague we were put through to a very nice man who told us what was what....he used to be a Met Copper....we asked why he had switched to this......I was done for drink driving he said.....I think that shows we can all make a mistake and deserve another chance.

Anyway...sorry for going on so much...but good luck jonno ...I am sure it is tough on you but atleast you have recognised your mistake...I say go for it if it is your dream !!!

The Devils Reject
1st Sep 2005, 08:41
Dont worry,
I also was disqualified for drink driving. Since then I have had two airline jobs, and was called for a second day at BA ( so they did'nt care either ) just dont leave it off your application forms as they WILL have to know. Nobody has ever even asked me about it in an interview - good luck:}

scroggs
2nd Sep 2005, 10:08
If a conviction is 'spent' under the terms of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, you do not need to disclose it to a potential employer (with a very few exceptions that do not include airlines). If the conviction is not 'spent', you will need to disclose it, but driving offences are very unlikely to compromise your chances of getting a flying job. They will have absolutely no effect on your airside pass application.

If you were applying for a job as a bus driver or similar, it would be different. But you aren't.

Scroggs

RVR800
5th Sep 2005, 11:59
Guess it depends on Company Policy

Basic - 5 year disclosure
Standard - All convictions
Enhanced - as above plus any in the court system

If you are working with children and vulnerable adults
you are often required now to have an 'enhanced' check

Unaccompanied minors are in your charge as a captain of an aircraft so it may be that the Enhanced check is performed by some airlines....?

scroggs
5th Sep 2005, 18:01
Captains are responsible for the overall safety of all occupants of an aircraft, but they are not responsible for the care of unaccompanied minors. That is a cabin crew function, and may mean that cabin crew require a higher level of screening (though I've heard nothing from our cabin crew to suggest that is the case).

As a pilot, you are behind a locked door for the flight and have nothing directly to do with any passenger, let alone unaccompanied minors. I would be extremely surprised if any airline required more than the basic disclosure. Virgin Atlantic certainly does not.

Scroggs

LewisS
5th Jan 2006, 11:36
Hi All,

Was just wondering if someone could hep me out and tell me if i can get a comercial pilot's (cpl or maybe atpl in due-course) job as i have a criminal conviction.

I'm now 22 and i recieved the conviction at either 15 or 16, it is for " Reckless Arson ". Althoug it was irresponsible- it was not delibrite.

I have heard of knowledgable sources that this conviction is now spent and not to worry about it but i wonder whether the airline industry has the power to scrutinise your criminal history, current or spent.

Thanks,

Lew

Number Cruncher
5th Jan 2006, 11:59
Depends on your sentance. As long as you was not sent to prison for more than 2.5 years you should have no worries!

http://www.lawontheweb.co.uk/rehabact.htm

This should give you your answer.

Good luck.

LewisS
5th Jan 2006, 12:51
Not getting an airport pass sounds quite harsh for something i did accidently when i was still at school.

My sentence was a fine (£600), a supervisional order (kinda like probation but for younger people, meant to last 12 months but only saw the bloke twice in the first week) and obviously a criminal conviction.

I've also noticed that i may not even be able to go to america where i planned on doing my training because of the record?

thanks again

notdavegorman
5th Jan 2006, 13:23
Notwithstanding I'm certainly not an expert on such issues, I could imagine getting a US visa for flight training more problematic as I seem to remember they specifically state that the US doesn't recognise spent convictions. I would enquire with the US embassy before I committed to anything if I were you.

erchie
5th Jan 2006, 15:17
What you need to look at is the 'Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974'. It sounds like a heavy volume, but is in fact a leaflet outlining the period of time a conviction is unspent. If the conviction is spent, it is then as though [I]it never happened.[I] Ypu do not have to mention spent convictions on application forms etc unless it is stated clearly that the act does not apply; i.e, applications to join police force etc. With regard to airport passes, criminal records are checked, but this information is between the criminal records office and the security service concerned, not the airline. Also, as you were quite young, the unspent period is reasonably short compared to similar offences committed at a later age. Check it out and good luck with the flying.

touch&go
5th Jan 2006, 17:41
Just send off to Disclosure Scotland and pay a small fee to see what they have listed on you.

https://www.disclosurescotland.co.uk/disclosureOnline/BDO_Instr.htm

LewisS
5th Jan 2006, 18:25
Hi all,

By getting in contact with knowledgeble sources, i have been told that as long as my conviction is spent, i.e i have a Basic Disclosure with nothing on it, my record is clear as such. I have been told that i don't have to state spent convictions when applying for an american visa, even if i'm asked. I have also been assured that if i ever applied to be a comercial pilot with any company i would not have to state the spent conviction either. I can't see gettin a air pass being any different?
Apperently the only time you are vetted and your past history can be seen is if i was applying for a job with children or the disabled (which even then i don't see reckless aarson as a teenager being a problem, i maybe wrong) and if i was applying for the police force (oh well).

Has anyone got any FACTUAL information that a spent conviction would be a problem in comercial aviation?

Lew

P.S Thanks to all of you who have so far replied, much apreciated.... :ok:

scroggs
5th Jan 2006, 19:48
lewis
you will have to disclose any convictions spent or otherwise to a future employer on an application, and your arson will put your application strainght iin the bin........
Harsh but true.

This is complete, and dangerous, rubbish. Your liability for disclosing your criminal record is governed by the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974. Under the provisions of that act, most convictions become spent after a period of time, the length of which is determined by any sentence which was handed down at the time. As for declaring spent convictions, Law On The Web (http://www.lawontheweb.co.uk/rehabact.htm) says this:

Benefits Of The Act Applying For Jobs

Applicants with a criminal record who are asked on an application form or at an interview whether they have any previous convictions can answer 'no' if the convictions are spent and the job applied for is not excepted from the Act. Under the terms of the Act, a spent conviction shall not be proper grounds for not employing - or for sacking - someone. (If on the other hand, job applicants do not disclose unspent convictions, if asked to do so, they may be found out, dismissed on the grounds of having deceived the employer - and possibly prosecuted.)

The Act does not provide any means of enforcing a person's right not to be refused employment (or entry into a profession) on the grounds of a spent conviction. If, however, an employee can prove that they have been dismissed for a spent conviction and they have been in employment a year or more, they may be able to claim unfair dismissal under employment legislation.


Some occupations are excepted from the provisions of the act, and so spent convictions must be declared when asked to do so. Airline pilot is not one of those occupations.

Airside passes are issued after a security check is carried out by Disclosure Scotland. Convictions spent under the RO Act 1974 are specifically excluded from disclosure, and will not disqualify you from holding an airside pass. See the Disclosure Scotland (http://www.disclosurescotland.co.uk/FAQ46.htm) website for more information.

To determine whether your conviction is spent, you need to dredge up the sentence imposed on you when you were convicted and check it against the chart on the Law on the Web site linked to earlier. If you're still unsure, a solicitor specialising in criminal law will help you sort it out.

It is extremely unlikely that a single youth conviction will disqualify you from employment in the airlines. Pay no attention to the claptrap spouted by some here.

Scroggs

LewisS
5th Jan 2006, 19:59
Scroggs,

Thanks for that post, has helped me see things more clearly

Lew

MIKECR
5th Jan 2006, 20:37
LewisS,

Best advice, come clean if asked about it. If someone happens to apply for a CRO check then your conviction will show up, spent or otherwise. If you havent declared it then your leaving yourself wide open for bother. Always best to be open about these things. I know 2 police officers who were accepted into the Police, one with a drink drive conviction, the other with an assault conviction. Both were grilled about it during their interview's but it gave them the opportunity to explain the circumstances. Both put their hands up and said " I was young, immature, foolish, and deeply regret what i did, no excuses". The panel appreciated their honesty and both were recruited to the ranks!

Whilst not every employer apply's for a CRO check, some do, dont get caught out! You'll shoot yourself in your own foot im afraid.

scroggs
5th Jan 2006, 20:44
The police is an excepted occupation where you must declare convictions, spent or otherwise. You are not required to for an airline, and you cannot be penalised for not declaring spent convictions. If you do not wish to declare your conviction, you need not do so if it is spent. You, of course, are at liberty to do so if you wish to. I would advise against it.

Lewis, do not be ill advised by people who, with the best of intentions, do not understand the law. If you are in any doubt, consult an employment lawyer.

Scroggs

MIKECR
5th Jan 2006, 22:37
Scroggs,

Sorry but you need to expand. Lewiss falls in to a level 1 check, a "basic disclosure". However, if the airline happens to be registered with the Criminal Records Bureau in terms of the ROA Act then they are perfectly entitled to vett him to level 2 or 3 standard under sub category code 55, "for the purposes of safeguarding national security". It is an exemption, exactly as the Police. It all depends on whether the airline is registered with the CRB or not. In todays current climate post 9/11 etc then theres probably a good chance. I suspect however most airlines only ask for a level 1 "basic disclosure". So to clarify, if Lewiss is asked to provide a level 1 certificate then he doesnt need to declare his spent conviction. If however the airline are entitled to vett further then my advice still stands as before, declare it.

MIKECR
5th Jan 2006, 22:57
Having just read the Act/Exemptions etc again i think it needs clarification, its a bit vague regarding "national security". I would like to find out 'who' is entitled to register with the Criminal Records Bureau, enabling them to apply for level 2/3 checks etc. Perhaps not airlines but the CAA would certainly have grounds ffor it.Unfortunately, legislation isnt the easiest of things to interprate, and this ones a stinker!! I have someone I can ask who might be able to clarify, i'll post again if he can tell me......

MIKECR
5th Jan 2006, 23:12
Im now stumped, ive read it front to back and frack to bunt! Take Scroggs advice and speak to an employment lawyer!

scroggs
6th Jan 2006, 08:30
I have my own Disclosure Scotland CRC return in my possession (the bit that tells me what was disclosed to the airline), and it would appear to me to be a Level 1 check. Airlines are not in the business of National Security; they - or rather their customers - are merely subject to an abnormal amount of attention from security organisations. Airline employees, with few exceptions, are likely only to be checked to Level 1. Customs, Police, and other national organisations directly involved in security may have higher level checks, as, for different reasons, may those who look after children. Even the Services make it very clear that any declaration of past convictions is subject to the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act.

Scroggs

MIKECR
6th Jan 2006, 08:56
Scroggs,

Agreed, a level 1 check(basic disclosure) is all that LewisS would appear be subject to, no problems for him then, as long as his conviction is spent(confirm that one for yourself LewisS). Unless things change then that appears to be the highest level of vetting for pilots.

747 Downwind
6th Jan 2006, 09:30
LewisS: Listen to Scroggs, erchie and Tom24.

To obtain an airside pass (BAA) you need to apply for a basic disclosure (known as Disclosure Scotland). I do not know about MAN as they are independently owned but I am sure they operate similar procedures to BAA airports. Under the 1974 Rehabilitation of Offenders Act your conviction is spent (in my opinion), therefore, it will not show up on your disclosure report.. trust me!!

It is of course the airports final decision as to whether they will grant you an airside pass.. a copy of the disclosure goes to the airline so theoretically you could have an unspent conviction, the airport operator may grant you an airside pass but the airline may see your conviction and wish not to employ you, I am sure this would go into legal complications. Either way this does not apply to you so don't worry.

Ignore Stansdead, he is probably an ex-cop:oh:
Do not come clean about it, it is an honourable thing to do but there are too many :mad: in this world and it will count against you. The old bill always say oh come clean about.. yeah alright mate!!

There is no problem getting a CPL/ATPL with a spent or unspent conviction.. just the airside pass maybe tricky if a conviction is unspent. You only need a full disclosure if you work with children, applying to the police force or the armed forces. Even then it is not the end of the world. I have heard the armed forces are in particular understanding (honesty does pay with them.. about the only people it does pay with).

Your only issue may be getting into the states.. passports are bi....? I am too stupid to remember the word but they can be read by US immigration on entry. I do not know how it works:confused: . As you would be going through as crew I would risk keeping your mouth shut.. you owe them nothing. Outrageous that a country with so many nutters won't allow a UK citizen in with a minor offence (acceptance a possibility after a thorough grilling).. maybe there is just to many psychos in there already:p

Good luck, don't let it stop you

747 Downwind:ok:

stansdead
6th Jan 2006, 10:59
Scroggs,

Are you telling me that if Virgin Atlantic (where you work) found out about a previous arson conviction that they would employ this guy?

Get real, whatever the law says is irrelevant.

There are loads of people chasing too few jobs. Why would an airline take on a former arsonist when it has plenty of straight down the line guys to choose from?

What some people, i.e. 747 downwind are advocating is lying on an application form to get a job. PATHETIC.

I know that TUI/THOMSON ask if you have had previous convictions. The fact that they comply with the rehabilitation of offenders act is one thing. They won't tell you that you don't fit the bill because of that conviction. You just won't fit the bill for one of many other reasons they are at liberty to dream up.

Lewis is thinking of spending 60000GBP to do a course leading to huge debts in order to never get a job in my opinion.

I THINK YOU SHOULD BE CAREFUL.

scroggs
6th Jan 2006, 11:24
Stansdead, you are talking complete rubbish. If TUI/Thompson comply with the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, they cannot find out about a conviction that is spent. In fact, they can't whether or not they comply with the Act. The only way they can find out is if you tell them, and the law does not require you to do so if your conviction is spent. So why do so? You are totally within your rights not to, and the employer is breaking the law if they subsequently discover the conviction and then act on that discovery.

I get the feeling that your only motive is to discourage a potential competitor for a job!

Scroggs

stansdead
6th Jan 2006, 11:40
Scroggs,

I have been with my employer as long as you have been at VS. And i am not looking to leave either, so your guesswork is wrong.

You agree it's ok to tell untruths if asked in interview?

Stan

dwshimoda
6th Jan 2006, 11:40
Stansdead,

Also, I belive the phrase is "rehabilitation of offenders" - clearly in your eyes Lewiss should be punished for his mistake as a youth for the rest of his life. If that's the case, there's no point having a justice system as people clearly can't recognise what they did was wrong, and change.

THAT is a very dangerous way of thinking.

DW.

scroggs
6th Jan 2006, 12:31
Scroggs,
You agree it's ok to tell untruths if asked in interview?
Stan

You are not legally required to reveal any conviction that is spent. You have the full backing of the law to withold that information. The employer has no right to demand it. There is no suggestion of lying. The question must always take the form, "Bearing in mind the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, do you have any convictions?". If your conviction is spent, you have none to declare.

You may have worked for your employer for a while. Clearly, you have learned little about the processes of employment. I, on the other hand, have been directly involved in the process from the employer's side over several years, though not currently. My advice stands, and I am very happy for it to be quoted to any lawyer, potential employee or employer.

Scroggs

VFE
6th Jan 2006, 15:38
With regard training in the US,

If your conviction is now spent then don't disclose it to the embassy. Even if it is required to do so, the chances of them going as far as vetting your criminal record are slim if you've always been a white UK resident, even in this current terrorist conscious environment believe it or not. The most you can expect are a few pointless questions about choice of training location from the guy sat behind the window in Grosvenor Square because unfortunately they are still not as security wise as they like to appear. Expect a pull at immigration stateside but that's only to check you have the relevant paperwork that the FTO facilitate on your behalf and then you'll soon be on your merry way. Just don't spark a ciggie up in the waiting room because they fine you something like $10'000 for the privilage over there.... and they carry guns, as one slight pissed punter found out whilst I was sat waiting my turn at MCO once!

Listen to Scroggs regarding the job implications and not the bar room know-all's who post here.

VFE.

747 Downwind
6th Jan 2006, 16:28
Stansdead: I never suggested that somebody should lie on an application form in order to get a job. In fact I have advised people against doing such things: (rounding up hours.. saying they have 14 first time passes when they actually have 13 etc). It is morally wrong and I would hope the airline would find out and dismiss them accordingly (it is too much of a small industry to get black listed).

Thomson and Thomas Cook amongst others do have a section for previous criminal convictions but if you look closely underneath you will see the reference to the 1974 Rehabilitation of Offenders Act.

LewisS has no obligation to inform an airline of his past spent conviction(s), if it good enough for the BAA or relevant airport operator then it is good enough for the airline. This is to do with airside safety, not who's been a naughty boy and should be punished for it. Withholding information that has not been questioned is not a lie, it is common sense. Have you never done something bad in your life, or had a poor performance in a given criteria.. you wouldn't just tell the Chief Pilot for the fun of it.. or better still say it in an interview or on an application.

I am merely advising the guy not to shoot himself in the foot.. I don't know why you are so keen for him not to pursue this career when many just like him have gone through the system with no problems. If he had previous for armed robbery or association with terrorist/political groups then clearly an airport operator would deny an airside pass.

The only advocation of lying I gave was for the US embassy and I stick by that.. if I was in that situation I wouldn't bother declaring it to them.. just my opinion.

Charlie Zulu
8th Jan 2006, 11:12
The training visa ia an M1 or J1 for flight training in the states.

As for the basic Scotland Disclosure check, why don't you just obtain a basic disclosure? It will only cost £13.60 and will take a week or two to arrive.

Anyone can obtain one for themselves. I had to apply for a basic disclosure for the Security Pass at Cardiff International Airport myself as it is for airside access but for private flying and thus an employer would not be paying.

http://www.disclosurescotland.co.uk/

It seems that you can start the process online nowadays:

https://www.disclosurescotland.co.uk/disclosureOnline/BDO_Instr.htm

You will then know whether it will show up on the disclosure certificate... however you won't be able to use that certificate to obtain an airport pass as it is only valid for a certain period (a few weeks or a couple of months, I can't remember as its been a while since I obtained my airside pass) and thus a new one would probably be required.

LewisS
8th Jan 2006, 15:14
Hi,

I've applied for a basic disclosure and I can go forward from there. Thank you all for taking the time to respond to my query, especially the ones that were encouraging.
Never thought I’d get this much feedback so thanks.

Lew

king rooney
13th Jan 2006, 12:18
Lewis my man,

I would be very very careful with what you take from this thread, a lot of the comments, whilst encouraging, are ill informed. I have researched this matter myself very carefully as I have a spent "bind over" on my record for the rediculous offence of indecent exposure from a few years ago. Here is what I think is the best advice you will get, however again don't take everything I say at face value, i may also be not entirely correct. I don't know anything about whether your conviction prevents you from holding an ATPL or airside pass, may be best to ring the CAA about that. I do however know a bit about the getting a job with an airline side of it.

1. Airlines can be exempt from the rehab of offenders act under grounds of national security. If exempt, they are entitled to seek an Enhanced Disclosure on you. It is very likely that this will show up your spent arson conviction.

2. When you apply for a pilots job it will ask for details of any convictions on the application form. This section of the form will, by law, say explicitly whether or not they are exempt from the rehab of offenders act. If they state that they are exempt then you will have to put down your spent conviction. This will not look good. If you do not put it down and they subsequently check, through an enhanced disclosure, it will look even worse.
I doubt whether airline recruiters will take a sympathetic view to past convictions, as there will be hundreds of other non-convicted pilots for them to choose from I reckon your chances of gaining a job will be slim.

As a potential life line however it may be the case that your spent conviction may not even show up on your enhanced disclosure if it was of a certain type and long enough ago. Try ringing NACRO (an advice helpline for these sort of issues) on 02075826500, who will be able to help.

3. If the airline is not exempt from the rehab of offenders act then they are, by law, not allowed to ask for details of any spent convictions. Their compliance with the rehab act will be stated explicitly by law on any job application forms. If this is the case then do not put your spent conviction down, as they can only get a basic disclosure on you which will show up nothing.

I think the real make or break issue here is whether or not the airlines choose to exercise their right to be exempt from the rehab of offenders act on job applications. It may be that even though they can, some of them may not bother, as the time and costs associated with getting an enhanced disclosure might not be to their liking.

Hence the following questions need to be answered, can anybody help?

Does anyone know whether or not airlines choose to exercise their right to be exempt from the rehab of offenders act? If so, how many do, and how many don't?

Has anyone filled out an airline job application form recently, and can they remember if it specified whether or not the airline was exempt from the act?

Also, from a personal point of view, whilst Lewis' arson conviction will almost certainly proclude him from getting a pilots job should it be revealed to a potential future airline employer, will they take the same line with my very minor, completely rediculous indecent exposure digression, should they get their eyes on it?
In other words, do the recruters take an arbitrary "no one works for us with any kind of criminal record", or will they differentiate in the cases of very minor/ completely rediculous offences?

scroggs
13th Jan 2006, 21:56
Yet again, we have bits of information cobbled together with assumptions to produce advice which is at best misleading. Let's start again:

The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (ROA) is the specific piece of legislation affecting ex-offenders' employment opportunities. Under certain circumstances, it enables them to 'wipe the slate clean' of their criminal record once a period of time has lapsed from the date of conviction. Provided they have not been re-convicted for another offence, their conviction is said to become spent and for the purpose of employment it can be treated as though it never existed. This means that if the ex-offender is asked on an application form, or at an interview, if they have a criminal record they are entitled to answer 'no'. It is illegal for an employer to discriminate against the ex-offender on grounds of their spent conviction.

The kind of sentences covered by the ROA include custodial (up to 2.5 years), probation, binding over, youth detention and a number of military sentences. Note it is the sentence, not the offence, which determines whether the ROA applies. The longest period that must elapse before the offence is considered spent is 10 years; the shortest is 6 months.

When a person applies for a job, an employer, if he feels that it is appropriate, can ask the applicant to obtain a Basic Disclosure (which will detail all convictions that are currently unspent under The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974), from Disclosure Scotland.

Standard Disclosure

A Standard Disclosure will be available for those applying for positions listed in The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (Exclusions and Exceptions). A Standard Disclosure will contain details of all convictions on record, whether spent or unspent and any cautions, warnings and reprimands. A Standard Disclosure will be for individuals applying for the posts whose duties involve:

1) Regular contact with children and young people under the age of 18.

2) Regular contact with the elderly, sick and handicapped people.

Enhanced Disclosure

Enhanced Disclosure will be available for those applying for positions which involves a greater degree of contact with children or vulnerable adults. This will involve those regularly caring for, supervising, or being in sole charge of children and young people or vulnerable adults.

Enhanced Disclosures will include all of the details contained in the Standard Disclosure (spent and unspent convictions), cautions, warnings and reprimands and any non-conviction information held locally by police, where this is considered relevant to the post or voluntary work being sought.
To ensure adequate protection for the public, exemptions have to be made so that information about “spent” convictions may not be withheld in certain circumstances. These exemptions are set out in statute – ‘the Exceptions Order’.

The Exceptions Order sets out the types of work and range of proceedings involving a particular level of trust to which the protection offered by the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act to ex-offenders is not available. Types of work include work with children, work with vulnerable adults and employment involving the administration of justice, national security and financial services. It does not necessarily debar ex-offenders from these jobs. Generally it will be for an employer or other authorised person to make an assessment of the relevance of the conviction.

However, if the person is seeking work in a child care position and their previous convictions are such that they have been included in the list, it will be unlawful for the person to be employed in a child care position.

The Exceptions Order now makes it clear that questions about previous convictions can be asked of those who are seeking to train for any of the professions, offices, occupation or employments specified in the Order, and of those who are currently training for such positions.

Excepted Professions, Offices, Employments and Occupations

Offices and Employments

 Judicial Appointments
 Prosecutors, Officers assisting prosecutors, and Officers assisting in the work of the Crown Office
 Signing Justices, and their Clerks and Assistants
 Clerks (including depute and assistant clerks) and officers of the High Court of Justiciary and the Court of Session and the District Court, Sheriff Clerks (including sheriff clerk depute) and their Clerks and assistants
 Precognition Agents
 Constables, Police Custody, Security Officers, Persons appointed as Police Cadets to undergo training with a view to becoming Constables and persons employed for the purposes of, or to assist the Constables of, a Police Force established under any enactment, Naval, Military and Air Force Police
 Any employment which is concerned with the administration of, or is otherwise normally carried out wholly or partly within the precincts of a prison, remand centre, young offenders institution, detention centre or removal centre, and members of visiting committees for prisons appointed under rules made under section 39 of the Prisons (Scotland) Act 1989(a) and members of visiting committees for remand centres and young offenders institutions appointed under section 19(3) of that Act
 Traffic wardens appointed under section 95 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984(b) or section 9 of the Police (Scotland) Act 1967(c)
 Any employment or work which is concerned with the provision of a care service
 Any employment or work which is concerned with the provision of health services and which is of such a kind as to enable the holder to have access to persons in receipt of such service in the course of that person’s normal duties
 Any employment or work in a child care position
 Any person who provides a service, or who seeks to provide a service under Part 4 of the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Act 2000(d)
 Any employment in the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals where the person employed or working, as part of his or her duties, may carry out the killing of animals
 Any office or employment in the Serious Fraud Office
 Any office or employment in the National Crime Squad or the National Criminal Intelligence Service
 Any office or employment in Her Majesty’s Customs and Excise
 Any employment which is concerned with the monitoring, for the purpose of child protection, of communications by means of the internet
 Any office or employment in the Social Services Council
 Her Majesty’s Inspectors or any person appointed by Ministers for the purposes of the Education Act 1980(e)
 The principal Reporter or officers appointed under the Local Government Act to assist that officer
 Members of a panel established by virtue of the Children Act 1995(h) (panels for curators ad litem, reporting officers and safeguarders)

Occupations

 Firearms dealer
 Any occupation in respect of which an application to the Gaming Board for Great Britain for a licence, certificate or registration is required by or under any enactment
 Any occupation which is concerned with the management of a place in respect of which the approval of the Secretary of State is required by section 1 or the Abortion Act 1967
 Any occupation in respect of which the holder, as occupier of premises on which explosives are kept, is required by an Order in Council made under section 43 of the Explosives Act 1875 to obtain from the police or a court of summary jurisdiction a certificate as to his fitness to keep explosives
 Taxi driver or private hire driver


Professions

 Medical Practitioner
 Advocate, Solicitor
 Chartered Accountant
 Dentist, Dental Hygienist, Dental Auxiliary
 Veterinary Surgeon
 Nurse, Midwife, Health Visitor
 Ophthalmic Optician, Dispensing Optician
 Pharmaceutical Chemist
 Registered Teacher
 Any profession to which the Professions Supplementary to Medicine Act 1960 applies and which is undertaken following registration under the Act
 Registered Osteopath
 Registered Chiropractor
 Chartered Psychologist
 Actuary
 Registered European Lawyer, Registered Foreign Lawyer
 Social Worker
Social Service Worker

You'll note that airline pilot is not included.

As for responsibilities aboard a civil transport aeroplane, you will find that the captain is not responsible for the pastoral and welfare care of children or vulnerable people on board; that is properly the responsibility of the airline and such specialist qualified personnel as it employs (who may themselves be subject to Standard or Advanced Disclosure). The Captain's care responsibility is limited to the safety of all occupants of the aircraft, irrelevant of their status - not the kind of responsibility envisaged by the legislation quoted above.

Unless they are very strange, your employer will ask for nothing more than Basic Disclosure, and the ROA applies in full. If they ask for more, you may reasonably ask what responsibilities they have in mind for you that require this higher level of disclosure.

Scroggs

Atreyu
13th Jan 2006, 22:04
Thanks scroggs, i guess that'll be the end of discussion. This man knows his stuff :)

(at least i was right about the captains duty of care! right for once!! := )

AT :cool:

Aerofoil
13th Jan 2006, 22:30
Ok, would having a caution for anything be something that stops you getting through ANY security checks on application to be a pilot??

Decisive Attitude
13th Jan 2006, 22:43
In terms of the airline saying 'no'; I don't know.

In terms of gaining an airside pass; well, I followed the link to Disclosure Scotland provided by Scroggs in his first post. This is turn links to a page at the Department of Transport (clicky) (http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_transsec/documents/divisionhomepage/030869.hcsp) which outlines the offences that would disqualify an applicant from obtaining an airside pass.

It would seem that the DfT set the criteria by which the issuance of an airside pass would be refused and they are not issued at the discretion of individual aiport security teams. As an example, a motoring conviction for speeding does not appear to preclude the issue of an airside pass.

scroggs
13th Jan 2006, 23:52
Not only that, but the DfT site, through a letter from Petra Wilkinson, reveals that:

INTRODUCTION OF CRIMINAL RECORD CHECKS

You will be aware of the Department’s intention to require all permanent restricted zone (RZ) pass holders to undergo a criminal record check (CRC) at basic disclosure level. In summary:
• This will include all new and existing staff.
• RZ pass holders who currently have or who are applying for a Counter Terrorist Check (CTC) will not require a CRC check unless they are entering the RZ prior to completion of CTC.
• New and existing RZ pass holders will be required to apply for their basic disclosure certificate and any unspent convictions will be checked against an agreed list of disqualifying convictions.
• A pass will not be issued if any of the disqualifying convictions appear on the disclosure certificate.
• Basic disclosure disqualifying criteria and CTC disqualifying criteria for criminal records will be harmonised.


That confirms that the issue of a permanent airside pass for the majority of airline employees is subject to a Basic Disclosure - as mine was.

Scroggs

king rooney
18th Jan 2006, 11:24
Amendment of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (Exceptions) Order 1975
2. The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (Exceptions) Order 1975[3] is hereby amended in accordance with the following provisions of this Order.

Amendment of article 3
3. - (1) In article 3(a)(ii) after the word "paragraph" there shall be inserted the words "12 or".

(2) In article 3(b) the words "the Civil Aviation Authority," shall be deleted.

(3) After article 3(b) there shall be inserted:


" (bb) any question asked by or on behalf of


(i) the Civil Aviation Authority,

(ii) any other person authorised to provide air traffic services under section 4 or section 5 of the Transport Act 2000[4] (in any case where such person is a company, an "authorised company"),

(iii) any company which is a subsidiary (within the meaning given by section 736(1) of the Companies Act 1985[5]) of an authorised company, or

(iv) any company of which an authorised company is a subsidiary,


where, in the case of sub-paragraphs (iii) and (iv) of this paragraph the question is put in relation to the provision of air traffic services, and in all cases, where the question is put in order to assess, for the purpose of safeguarding national security, the suitability of the person to whom the question relates or of any other person for any office or employment where the person questioned is informed at the time the question is asked that, by virtue of this Order, spent convictions are to be disclosed for the purpose of safeguarding national security;".

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/cgi-bin/htm_hl.pl?DB=opsi&STEMMER=en&WORDS=rehabilit+offend+&COLOUR=Red&STYLE=s&URL=http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20020441.htm#muscat_highlighter_first_match

so it looks like you will have to declare any spent conviction to an airline if asked. Whether they wiil bother checking spent convictions is another matter.

scroggs
18th Jan 2006, 11:34
No, Rooney, I think you're wrong. As I understand it, this amendment applies only to the those organisations and companies providing Air Traffic Services and certain security services to or on behalf of the CAA, and not to airlines or other customers of the CAA.

In any case, in my experience, no pilots have been asked by the airlines or by BAA (or other airport operator) for greater than Basic Disclosure. That is the crux of the matter.

Scroggs

king rooney
18th Jan 2006, 12:21
Scroggs

I am indeed wrong, for this I apologise to you and all ppruners.
The exemptions order I quoted refers to jobs working for air traffic services, not for air transport services.

see sect 4/5 of the transport act for details. http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00038--a.htm#4

So, as far as I can make out, the only employers to do with aviation who are exempt from the rehab of offenders act are the CAA themselves and anyone lisenced to provide air traffic services.
Makes sense, as imaging the havoc someone could cause if they were let loose in the ATC room of a major airport. That would indeed be a grave threat to national security.

This is great news for lewis, and indeed anyone else such as myself with some sort of spent misdemeanor in their past.

Just goes to show how easy it is to misinterpret legal documents, focusing in on one bit of information, without getting the full picture. There's a reason why we all are/ wannabe pilots and not lawyers!

scroggs
18th Jan 2006, 12:44
No problem. I have asked our HR Department to give me the official position as Virgin sees it; I believe it is as I have stated - and, of course, personally experienced - but I'll let you know when I get the definitive answer from them.

Remember, KR, I'm not a wannabe - I've been there, done it, and got several T-shirts!

Scroggs

up4it
26th Jan 2006, 07:06
I got a fine from a magistrates court a year ago.

Does this mean i was convicted? and will it stop me from getting a job / airside pass?

thanks

scroggs
26th Jan 2006, 07:41
Go back and read this thread. All the information you need is contained here.

Scroggs

scroggs
26th Jan 2006, 20:58
No problem. I have asked our HR Department to give me the official position as Virgin sees it; I believe it is as I have stated - and, of course, personally experienced - but I'll let you know when I get the definitive answer from them.

And here is that answer:

In response to your query about the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act in
relation to an applicant who has a spent conviction.

Air carriers could use an exemption under the act on the basis of national
security, however they currently fall in line with the Department for
Transport regulations which is enforced through the requirements of the
BAA to provide a basic disclosure before a restricted-zone ID is issued.
There is a list of disqualifying criteria so someone could still have a
conviction e.g. Driving under the influence of alcohol and be OK. The list
of disqualifying criteria can be found on HR Direct.

A basic disclosure, which the airline or an individual applies to
Disclosure Scotland for, should only disclose unspent convictions. If
they do disclose spent ones, my understanding is the individual (who is the
one to receive this information first) can appeal to Disclosure Scotland to
have it removed. It may be worth suggesting to him/her to apply for a
basic disclosure on line from Disclosure Scotland themselves (i.e. before
needing it officially) to put their mind at rest what may be disclosed.
It costs about £14.

It's important to point out that the requirements may change in future. If
they do, it is likely that Standard Disclosures will be the requirement,
this will show spent and unspent convictions. However, this is unlikely as
the current process for Standard is so involved it would give the airlines
an administration burden and delay recruitment to 2-3 months in most cases. It would be a similar situation to that which was experienced in
schools and hospitals.

In the meantime, can I suggest you refer him/her to the Disclosure
Scotland's website ( http://www.disclosurescotland.co.uk/ ) and Apex Trust
( http://www.apextrust.com/ ) who are an independent source of information
to ex offenders about employment issues.

I hope this helps.

So there you go people; that's the definitive airline HR department answer.

Scroggs

scroggs
26th May 2006, 18:59
Jaz have a good read of this thread. Don't listen too much to people who make assumptions based on what they think or what they've heard rather than the real facts.

Scroggs

JHM
30th May 2006, 10:58
Jaz,

Drink driving does not get you a criminal record so to speak, however it is recordable for home office statistics and a record will be created by the police (not criminal).

With regards to jobs, it depends on aggravating or mitigating circustances, for instance the legal limit is 35microgrammes for 100ML of breath, if you were anything close to this it would not normally matter.

With regards to the aviation industry, i can't be sure, as they are proper strict, the legal limit for pilots is 20MG of alcohol for 100ML of blood, comparing this with the limit for a driver which is 88MG of alcohol for 100ML of blood.

This probably does not answer your question, but some useless info for you.

dublinamg
12th Jun 2006, 19:19
Just wondering if anybody can give me an idea of having a criminal record would affect becoming a pilot. I am guessing that there's pretty much no problem taking lessons but what about with applying for license and then job prospects? Thanks.

Daysleeper
13th Jun 2006, 15:02
I'm in Ireland ,

AFAIR the criminal records check by Disclosure Scotland ONLY looks inside Great Britain, they dont even check Northern Ireland unless you have an address there. Yes its crazy but thats government at its best. :ugh:
So thats a big YES to french mad axe murderers.:ok:

dublinamg
13th Jun 2006, 16:21
Didn't see the original thread so sorry for posting in the wrong place originally.

I read through the details and in my case it seems like I would have to wait either 7 or 10 years before anything is possible if the details on the links are right.

Interesting on what you say about it only being English convictions though - it would be great to get an earlier chance that way. I'm sure they must do some checks though.

TooLowTerrain
13th Jun 2006, 16:31
Jaz,

Drink driving does not get you a criminal record so to speak, however it is recordable for home office statistics and a record will be created by the police (not criminal).
you.

Sorry mate but, you are wrong there,

Drink driving, if convicted, does give the offender a criminal record.

Regards

TLT

salad_man
16th Jun 2006, 11:35
Hello

Normally I'm a reader only, hence my first post!

I just want to clarify some of the points raised and clear some misunderstandings up, more from a legal standpoint as scroggs answered the rest quite admirably.

'jaz' drink drive IS a conviction, (you must have been tried and convicted in a court)

'up4it' if you received a fine, then it depends what for. Speeding convictions are generally not counted. Usually however you will not have attended (plea by post). If it is something more serious, and you were tried and convicted of an offence, then this will also count as a conviction.

'king rooney', Indecent exposure is slightly different in that under certain circumstances you are required to be placed on the Sex Offenders register. You would know whether this has taken place, without knowing details I wouldn't like to speculate.

'areofoil' a caution is not a criminal conviction, and so you are not required to declare it.

For a fine under the age of 17 after 2 1/2 years it will count as spent (5 years for an over 18) under the Rehab of Off Act 1974. So 'lewisS' your conviction would now be spent.

The main problem is that to obtain a US Visa, you are required to declare whether you have been arrested for an offence and if this results in a conviction then you may be permanantly ineligible to receive a visa, as they are exempt from the Rehab of Off Act 1974.

Of course whether of not you declare this is a matter for your own integrity. Some points to bear in mind:

If you are arrested for an offence (recordable) your fingerprints and DNA will be taken and these will be kept on file forever, irrespective of whether you are charged and sent to court.

Whilst your conviction may be spent after a period of time you may think that the Police will delete your record. Think again! Your record will be held on the Police National Computer indefinitely. It depends what checks the Us Embassy do as to whether they find this out.

I apologise if this has been covered before, having read the thread, it seems that there is a lot of 'well intentioned' advice that is perhaps not totally accurate. I hope I have cleared this up.

Good luck in your future employment.

mad_jock
16th Jun 2006, 15:56
salad_man. If think you maybe a bit wrong with the caution thing.

Or maybe its a difference between Scots law and English.

And this is only what I believe and have been advised to do if nicked by a scottish bobby. And this was by a Scottish policeman.

If you accept a caution you accepting you are guilty of the charge. The police then issue you the caution. This is then recorded by the scottish criminal records office. And for ever more it comes up if the police do a check on you. With the standard rules about it lapsing.

If you refuse to accept the caution the police then have to forward it to the proc fiscal. Then they make the call if to take it to court or not.

9 times out of 10 if the police know they have enough evidence to secure a prosecution the caution will not be on offer. So if you do get one offered it usually because they know they are on shakey ground and the PF won't go ahead or because of social and economic reasons the whole proccess is going to cost more in police time and court costs than would be recovered. In scotland the crown always pays the costs for bring a prosecution.

The caution system is there so they can quickly record your wrong doings without using up court time and money. Then when you have taken the piss to much they get you for the whole lot in one go. They might only charge you with one offense but the sheriff will take into account you have been naughty before when sentencing you.

So if you have been cautioned in scotland it will come up on your record. Because you have pleaded guilty to the police and they have recorded it and released you with no punishment.

https://www.disclosurescotland.co.uk/PDF/CERTIFICATE.pdf

This is the sample report You can see there is a section for reprimands warnings and cautions.

I don't think the central computer system in England records the cautions so any cautions are only available locally where you got Knicked. So if you have been cautioned in England it won't show up yet.

salad_man
18th Jun 2006, 00:08
Hello mad_jock.


You are right and wrong. To be given a caution means that you must first admit the offence, and then agree to be given a caution. And as you say the Police can take this into consideration should you come to notice again.
Also as you say, if you don't agree to be cautioned then the Police have no choice but to charge you and send to court.

"9 times out of 10 if the police know they have enough evidence to secure a prosecution the caution will not be on offer. So if you do get one offered it usually because they know they are on shakey ground and the PF won't go ahead or because of social and economic reasons the whole proccess is going to cost more in police time and court costs than would be recovered. "

This is not correct. For the Police to give a caution then they must have sufficient evidence to secure a successful prosecution at court, (on the basis that if the person does not agree to be cautioned then they have to be charged and taken to court.)

"The caution system is there so they can quickly record your wrong doings without using up court time and money. Then when you have taken the piss to much they get you for the whole lot in one go. They might only charge you with one offense but the sheriff will take into account you have been naughty before when sentencing you."

Up to a point that is true. But they are there for first time offenders to give them a 'chance' before going down the court route in the hope that they will learn from their mistake. People with past convictions almost never get cautioned. Also this only applies to simple petty offences. Someone for robbery would never get cautioned and neither would drink drive type offences.

"I don't think the central computer system in England records the cautions so any cautions are only available locally where you got Knicked. So if you have been cautioned in England it won't show up yet."

This is not correct I'm afraid, all cautions, whether adult or juvenile, are recorded on the Police National Computer and have been for at least 20 years, probably a lot more.

As you say it may be the difference between the Scottish Law and English Law.

mad_jock
18th Jun 2006, 12:41
I think you are proberly right and I am wrong. Having not had anything to do with either a caution or a conviction.

But still if you had a caution would it be classed as a conviction and thus no airside pass.?

v12merlin
20th Jun 2006, 13:48
LewisS you might find this of interest. It's part of a letter I've just recieved from BA Connect regarding my application for a Security Passes on the IOM.

Background Checking - Criminal Record Check

Due to othe nature of business conducted, it is considered that security of the Airport is a matter of national security. Therefore the provisions of the Rehabiliation of Offenders Act DO NOT APPLY and details of all convictions, cautions, reprimands, binding over orders etc, must be declared.

I think this is probably exculsive to the Isle of Man but non the less something to think about.

All the best.

dwshimoda
20th Jun 2006, 14:24
v12,

That seems a bit extreme!

on a different note, how can they find out if you have a spent conviction? A quick read of this document:

http://www.disclosurescotland.co.uk/PDF/WEEDING%20POLICY.pdf

will explain the "weeding out" process of Police Records. It states:

Cautions, police reprimands and final warnings also form part of the police record. If there are cautions
but no convictions on the record and no further cautions have been recorded for a period of five years,
the record will be deleted, except where the caution is accompanied by an 'offence against vulnerable
person' information marker. If there are police reprimands or final warnings but no convictions on the
record, the reprimands and warnings will be retained until the offender has attained the age of eighteen
years and for a minimum period of five years. After attaining the age of eighteen years and if no police
reprimands or final warnings have been recorded for a period of five years, the record will be deleted.

This implies that the whole Police Record is deleted after a certain period of time. So, for example, if you had a caution 10 years ago, then as long as it wasn't against a "vulnerable person" you should have no Police record. Therefore if you answer "no" to that question - how could they prove differently?

DW.

v12merlin
20th Jun 2006, 14:38
dwshimoda

I'm sure you're right, just some relevent info for the lad.

dwshimoda
20th Jun 2006, 14:54
V12,

I wasn't questioning you :ok: just wondering how someone can ask for something that isn't required by virtually any other area in the country, and potentially couldn't be proved / disproved.

I hate to think that a minor misdemeanour by someone many years ago should continue to count against them if they have learned from it, and been trouble free since. It seems from your post that the IOM do not believe can change for the better, and need to be pilloried for ever!

As far as Lewiss is concerned - he has been posting in the Professional training forums - so I'm hoping he got the answer he wanted on his disclosure form, and is now "enjoying" the ATPL theory studies!!!

Wingwalker10
11th Jul 2006, 10:12
Just wanted to know if anyone could advise me on whether my past driving convictions might preclude my getting an airside pass and line job???

I am currently 34

The black marks are:
Careless driving 1991 8pts
Disqualified for speeding for 6 mths 1998
Driving whilst disqualified(for above speeding)Doh! 1998
Disqualified for speeding for 21days 2004
SP30 GATSO 3 pts 2004


I've been advised on the spent rules by D.SCOT and have applied for a Basic level cert but knowing that everything involving uk police records is shown including spent driving convictions on the standard and advanced record is a worry since i am half way into my ATPL GS.

Please advise if you have any specific experience of this or knowledge of the 'normal' line views.

Many thanks all:ugh: :\

scroggs
11th Jul 2006, 11:30
I take it you haven't bothered reading the rest of this thread? If you had, you'd have found links to sites that tell you about the offences that are incompatible with pass issue etc.

However, with that kind of driving history you might find that employers have quite justified doubts about your reponsibility.

Scroggs

Wingwalker10
12th Jul 2006, 19:19
Scroggs,

Thanks for the hint, I didn't go right back to the start before but have now read all the posts both relevant and complete tosh. Your HR info and link to the DfT site was most helpful.

Before I go on, If you have a passion for motorbikes, as have I, you will know speeding does become easy on modern superbikes and although I don't condone breaking the law,and i do regret and have learned from the events, I do believe that the rider/driver should be fully in control at all times and act sensibly within their ability. (Just as any us govern our own actions when acting as a pilot) Slate that if you wish but with regard to your employer remark;

Scroggs quoted:
You are not legally required to reveal any conviction that is spent. You have the full backing of the law to withold that information. The employer has no right to demand it. There is no suggestion of lying. The question must always take the form, "Bearing in mind the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, do you have any convictions?". If your conviction is spent, you have none to declare.

And in addition to my comment above- I hold a Directorship, employ 15 persons and have young family--one lives and learns!

Subsequent to my first post here, I have been in touch with a training provider with close airline links who advised that- A basic disclosure is all that is required for the RZ pass the company employing may (discretionary) require a standard disclosure and driving convictions are not relevant.
Case closed.

By the way, are you open for light discussion about your particular working environment??

scroggs
12th Jul 2006, 21:19
Oh, I understand. I was a biker, and my brother is a DIA/RoSPA Advanced Instructor and Examiner. We both have managed to keep our licences points-free, fortunately.

The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, as it refers to motoring offences, is detailed here (http://www.carnet.co.uk/carlaw/rehabilitation.html). Basically, any fine or a disqualification of less than 5 years carries a rehabilitation period of 5 years. If your disqualifications carried associated fines and are not spent, they will appear in your Basic Disclosure and you may well be asked about them at interview (hence my comment about responsibility), but they will not affect an application for an airside pass.

For information about Virgin, please see this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=143500). If that doesn't answer your questions, by all means PM me.

Scroggs

3Greens
12th Jul 2006, 21:28
I remember being sent a list of which convictions prevent you from obtaining an airside pass. minor Driving offences were not on the list.

Scorpion1
12th Jul 2006, 21:37
Whilst your conviction may be spent after a period of time you may think that the Police will delete your record. Think again! Your record will be held on the Police National Computer indefinitely. It depends what checks the Us Embassy do as to whether they find this out.


This is slightly incorrect. I say slightly as I used to work in the data protection dept. of a police force and have seen these problems time and time again.

What actually happens is that all conviction data is stored on the PNC and the National Criminal Record Archive at New Scotland Yard. Say for example if you committed an offence more than 10 years ago, and this offence is considered 'Spent' under the terms of the Rehab. Act.

The Police Chief's association (ACPO) have a code of conduct where these 'minor' criminal records are to be weeded (ie removed from the PNC) as long as the offence falls within the list of allowable offences. These offences, as you can guess, are relatively minor ones and haven't required the offender to be imprisoned. Therefore the offender just received a fine/was 'bound-over' or received supervision orders etc.

However, (hopefully you're still listening as this is the best bit!) Scotland Yard do not have an automated process where these qualifying records are reviewed and deleted after the qualifying period. HOWEVER, IF YOU APPLY FOR YOUR CRIMINAL RECORD CHECK AS A PART OF THE DATA PROTECTION (SUBJECT ACCESS) REQUEST, FREELY AVAILABLE AT ANY POLICE STATION FOR THE PRICELY SUM OF £10, THE RECORD, IF EXISTS, IS OPENED AND MANUALLY REVIEWED BY NEW SCOTLAND YARD AND THEN IF IT MEETS THE WEEDING CRITERIA SET OUT BY ACPO, IT IS WEEDED MANUALLY. YOU THEN RECEIVE A BLANK SHEET STATING 'NO CONVICTION DATA HELD ON THE PNC' OR WORDS TO THAT EFFECT.

The only problem with the above is that it only removes the conviction data from the PNC (Police National Computer) - it does not remove the data from the Court records which the Home Office keeps for statistical analysis and which I suspect is freely available to MI5/MI6 and other sensitive government departments.

Here's another However! If you require a Security Clearance (ie for sensitive MOD type work etc), the Defence Vetting Agency have extensive archive records which still contains this 'unweeded' data held in data warehouses which is separate to the PNC. So if you decide to be a little untruthful on your SC form, then this will prevent you from obtaining security clearance as there are clear warnings on the form about declaring ALL convictions regardless of how minor/spent/unspent etc.

My Opinion: A couple of spent minor convictions committed by a teenager over 20 years ago should not be a bearing on a person's character now. However, they still need to be revealed to demonstrate you are now showing honesty etc.

I hope this helps. :D

Wingwalker10
12th Jul 2006, 22:51
Thank you Scroggs, as I said I am quite prepared to admit to my mistakes where necessary and I take on board your comments re interview Q & A. Fore warned is fore armed as they say. Incidently, since my last misdemenor, I gave up riding bikes on the road due safety and licence protection and went racing on it instead. At least that way I have won a pot or 6 for going fast!:D I'll follow your link.

Thanks also Scorpion, I can verify that a PC in the family said much the same re. Spent conviction, MI5 and Scotland Yard. The force suggested I get the CRC and see for myself as you rightly say but I didn't know about the non automated weeding, so delving now could well help to clear any old info which is no bad thing!

On another note, I think that it is a complete injustice for a foreign embassy such as the USA to take offence (pardon the pun)with relatively minor motoring convictions whether spent or not. Or did I remember that wrongly from a long past post??

Scorpion1
13th Jul 2006, 06:39
I should also add that the original thread poster's problem/conviction is likely to remain on record due to the severity. I'm pretty sure that arson is on the exclusion list of offences that can't be 'wiped off the slate' and so will remain on the record.

Furthermore, the Rehabilitation of Offenders act is currently under review - partly to make it clearer and also to bring it up to date. I can guess that the act will now update the list of occupations where you have to reveal convictions - spent or not to now include Aviation.

There are lots of changes/pressures in this area now following the Bichard inquiry due to the Soham murders and data protection pressures from the Information Commissioner.

Scorpion1
13th Jul 2006, 06:45
but I didn't know about the non automated weeding, so delving now could well help to clear any old info which is no bad thing!


that's the problem - there is nothing published about this and the force won't 'inform' you about this procedure but it does exist and I should note it is currently under review as the whole data protection/retention of Police information is a total cock-up and full of mis-interpretation. This is further added to by ACPO mis-information.

Britain is so-advanced and yet so far behind on things that really matter rather than arresting petty Lords..

scroggs
13th Jul 2006, 08:39
Scorpion, I refer you to three of my earlier posts on this subject here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2321940&postcount=38), here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2322092&postcount=42) and here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2349609&postcount=50) for the current situation vis a vis CRC checks, Basic (or other) Disclosure, and airline employment.

While it is potentially possible for an airline to attempt to ask for Standard Disclosure of potential employees an National Security grounds, to do so would involve a disproportionate workload and, in any case, would be legally contestable as few, if any, airline workers have any responsibility for security. Those that do are already Excepted and are subject to Basic or Advanced Disclosure. Thus I think it unlikely that the revisions to the RoA will change the Excepted list insofar as it is relevant to airline employment.

For those who are still not sure, here is a list of unspent convictions which would prohibit issue of an Airside security pass:

Disqualifying criteria

1. OFFENCES AGAINST THE PERSON

Offences against the Person Act 1861
Child Abduction Act 1984
Administering chloroform
Administering poison so as to endanger life
Administering poison
Assault occasioning actual bodily harm
Assault on police
Racially or religiously aggravated actual bodily harm
Attempting to choke
Affray
Causing bodily injury by explosives
Child Abduction
Child destruction
Cruelty to person under 16
Endanger safety of an aircraft
Endangering safety of railway passengers
False imprisonment
Ill-treatment of mental patients
Kidnapping
Manslaughter
Murder
Attempted Murder
Sending explosive substance with intent
Soliciting to murder
Threats to kill
Unlawful wounding/inflicting grievous bodily harm
Wounding/causing grievous bodily harm with intent.

2. THEFT/DISHONESTY

Theft Acts 1968 and 1978
Aggravated burglary
Aggravated vehicle taking
Assault with intent to rob
Blackmail
Burglary (entering and stealing etc)
Burglary (entering with intent)
Company director publishing false statement
Forgery of Passport
Dishonestly retaining a wrongful credit
Dishonest representation for obtaining benefit etc
Evasion of liability by deception
False accounting (making false entry etc)
False accounting (omission of material particular)
False accounting (furnishing false information)
Going equipped for burglary etc
Handling stolen goods (receiving)
Handling stolen goods (undertaking or assisting the retention etc)
Making off without payment
Obtaining a money transfer by deception
Obtaining pecuniary advantage by deception
Obtaining property by deception
Obtaining services by deception
Procuring the execution of a valuable security by deception
Removing article from place open to public
Robbery
Taking conveyance without authority
Theft (from a person, a dwelling, automatic machine or meter, from mail, by an employee, from shop, from or of a vehicle).

3. SEXUAL OFFENCES

Sexual Offences Acts 1956 to 1992
Abduction of unmarried girl under 16 from parent or guardian
Abduction of unmarried girl under 18 from parent or guardian
Abduction of woman by force or for sake of her property
Assault with intent to commit buggery
Detention of woman against her will for unlawful sexual intercourse (or in a brothel)
Indecency with a child
Indecent assault on a female
Indecent assault on a male
Living on earnings of prostitution
Procuration of intercourse by false pretences
Procuration of woman to become prostitute
Attempted Rape
Rape
Exploitation of prostitution
Trafficking
Preparatory offences
Offences outside the UK.

4. HARMFUL OR DANGEROUS DRUGS

Misuse of Drugs Act 1971
Misuse of Drugs Regulations 1985
The Criminal Justice Act 1990
Drug Trafficking Act 1994
Being concerned in production of a controlled drug
Being concerned in supply of a controlled drug
Possessing a Class A controlled drug
Possessing a controlled drug with intent
Producing a controlled drug
Supplying a controlled drug
Import or export of controlled drugs
Concealing or transferring the proceeds of drug trafficking
Assisting another person to retain the benefit of drug trafficking
Acquisition, possession or use of proceeds of drug trafficking
Failure to disclose knowledge or suspicion of money laundering.

5. CRIMINAL DAMAGE

Criminal Damage Act 1971
Destroying or damaging property (including Arson)
Threats to destroy or damage property
Possessing anything with intent to destroy or damage property
Explosive Substances Act 1883
Causing explosion likely to endanger life or property
Attempt to cause explosion, or making or keeping explosive with intent to endanger life or property
Conspiracy to cause an explosion
Making or possession of explosive
Burning, maiming, etc. by explosion.

6. TERRORISM

Anti Terrorism Crime and Security Act 2001
Prevention of Terrorism Act 1989

7. AVIATION

Protection of Aircraft Act 1973
Aviation Security Act 1982 (as amended)

8. MARITIME

Aviation and Maritime Security Act 1990

9. CHANNEL TUNNEL

Channel Tunnel Security Order 1994

10. RAILWAYS

Railways Act 1993

11. FIREARMS

Firearms Act 1968

Possession of a firearm without a certificate
Non-compliance with condition of firearm certificate
Possession of a shotgun without certficate
Non-compliance with condition of shotgun certificate
Trading in firearms without being registered as a firearms dealer
Selling firearm to person without a certificate
Repairing, testing, etc. firearm for person without a certificate
Falsifying certificate, etc with view to acquisition of firearm
Shortening a shotgun or other smooth bore gun
Possessing or distributing prohibited weapons or ammunition
The sale, acquisition and possession or carrying of firearms
Possessing firearm or imitation firearm with intent to commit an indictable offence, or resist arrest, etc.
Possessing firearm or imitation firearm with intent to endanger life
Possessing firearm or imitation firearm with intent to cause fear of violence
Carrying loaded firearm, shotgun, loaded air weapon or any other firearm in public place
Trespassing with firearms in a building
Possession of firearms by persons previously convicted of crime
Supplying firearms to persons denied them under S21 Firearms Act .

12. IMMIGRATION

Immigration Act 1971

Assisting illegal entry and harbouring
Assisting entry of an asylum claimant

Carrying out arrangements for securing or facilitating the obtaining of leave to remain in the UK by means believing to include deception.

13. EVASION OF LIABILITY/BAIL OFFENCES

Customs and Excise Act 1979

Failure to submit to bail
Evasion of any duty chargeable on goods
Evasion of any provision of the Customs and Access Act applicable to goods.

14. BOMB THREATS AND BOMB HOAXES

Criminal Law Act 1977
Criminal Law Act 1997

Placing or dispatching articles to cause bomb hoax
Communicating false information alleging the presence of bombs.

15. OFFENSIVE WEAPONS

Prevention of Crime Act 1953
The Criminal Justice Act 1988 (s139 & s141)
The Offensive Weapons Act 1996
The Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959
The Knives Act 1997

Possession of offensive weapon (in a public place) without lawful authority or reasonable excuse
Having an article with a blade or point in a public place
Having an article with a blade or point on school premises
Manufacture and distribution of flick knives and gravity knives.

16. PROTECTION OF CHILDREN AND VULNERABLE ADULTS

Protection of Children Act 1978
Sexual Offences Act 2003

Taking indecent photograph or pseudo photograph of children
Child sex offences
Abuse of position of trust
Familial child sex offences
Offences against persons with a mental disorder
Inducements etc. to persons with mental disorder
Abuse of children through prostitution and pornography

17. MILITARY OFFENCES

Any unspent conviction for an offence listed in the previous categories but dealt with by a military court will be a disqualifying offence. In addition, the following military offences are also a disqualifying offence:

Army and Air Force Acts 1952 (S24, S25 & S31)
Naval Discipline Act 1957 (S2, S3, S8 & S9)
Assisting the enemy
Looting
Mutiny

Note: The equivalent offences in Northern Ireland and Scotland for the above disqualifying criteria also apply.

The classifications defined here include attempting, conspiring, inciting, aiding, abetting, causing or permitting a crime. In certain cases they are detailed separately (e.g. attempted murder).

It should also be noted that not all offences are listed. For example, many weapons are covered by the legislation relating to offensive weapons. These have not been listed individually. Similarly, offences against the person include racially and religiously motivated incidents, although not individually stated.

Offences covered under legislation relating to Terrorism and Aviation Security have not been listed separately as they are to be applied in full.

Q: Where can I get independent/confidential advice?


A: Apex Trust can offer independent/confidential advice and information to enquirers covering a range of issues that affect ex-offenders including when a conviction becomes spent in line with the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act and disclosure advice. They are open Monday- Friday 10am - 5 pm and can be contacted on 0870 6084567 or email jobcheck@<hidden>

Scroggs

Scorpion1
13th Jul 2006, 09:55
Scorpion, I refer you to three of my earlier posts on this subject here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2321940&postcount=38), here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2322092&postcount=42) and here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2349609&postcount=50) for the current situation vis a vis CRC checks, Basic (or other) Disclosure, and airline employment.


Scroggs, I have read all 3 posts and more and still offer my opinion/experience. The act is in urgent need of overhaul and I think it IS likely that Aviation will fall within the act and thus require a standard disclosure. Airlines do not set/lobby for easier legislation just so 'it makes HR/Security administration' easier.

scroggs
13th Jul 2006, 10:27
No, that's true! However, the only reason I can see for a catch-all inclusion of aviation in the list is a populist and misplaced assumption that all employees of aviation can be defined as security personnel, or are, in some legally accountable way, responsible for security, which is not the case over and above the reponsibility of any individual to their peers and colleagues. They are no more so than an office worker is. Specialist security (and some other) personnel are already included in the Exceptions list, and thus are already subject to Standard or Advanced disclosure.

I can't see the need (or demand) for a greater level of screening for the majority of aviation personnel. However, as politicians and other non-experts will frame the list, I have no doubt that various iniquities and illogicalities will appear therein upon its revision, and that you'll be prevented from being a pilot if you've ever been prosecuted for littering. :rolleyes:

Ever listened to Arlo Guthrie's Alice's Restaurant? American blind justice comes to UK! Actually, it already has if you're an accountant...

Scroggs

MarkColeman
4th Oct 2006, 18:26
Hi,

I'm considering a career as a commercial pilot, but i have a conviction for careless driving.

Can anyone give me any info on how this could affect me? I asked Ryanair and they said it would not be a factor if i applied to them.

Also on the medical there is a section asking about driving while intoxicated convictions, but nothing about careless driving.

Any info appreciated.

Carcinogen
20th Oct 2006, 16:50
Hello.
Im new to this forum and i have been searching around the forum for answer to my question. But i havent found any good ones. Therfor im making this thread.
The thing is that i want to start an integrated ATPL soon and i have 2 minor incidents on my criminal record. One happend last year and the other 4 years ago. In both cases i got a small fine.
Would this criminal record prevent me from getting a pilot job in the future?
Because i see that requirments for applying for most pilot jobs is no criminal record.
I hope anyone has some information regarding this subject.
Thanks for any replies.

scroggs
20th Oct 2006, 18:42
You will find that your post has been merged with the appropriate thread, which would have been easily found had you searched, and within which you will find the answer to your question at least as it applies to the UK. If the law is different in Norway, and that is where you intend to work, get advice from an expert in Norwegian employment law.

Scroggs

monkeytribe
16th Nov 2006, 12:37
Hi all.

If you are charged with an offence but not convicted (court case pending), does this mean you cannot apply for or obtain successfully an airside pass until vindicated?

Cheers

Artificial Horizon
16th Nov 2006, 19:02
monkeytribe,

it is a bit of a hard question to answer without all of the relevant information. There are certain offences that are permissable and enable you to still hold an airside pass. So it will depend on what you are currently charged with. Have a look at the 'disclosure scotland' page where all of your questions are answered.

http://www.disclosurescotland.co.uk/FAQLegislationandOffences.htm

Cheers

Peelay
24th Nov 2006, 22:48
sorry to resurrect this thread again but im am after some of your wisdom. i have read all of your posts but im still not sure about my situation. 3 years ago i was cautioned for possesion of controlled drugs. this falls into the criteria of being uneligable for an airside pass. but what i would like to know is, does this only apply to a conviction or will it also apply to my caution? i would be very grateful for any light you can shine on this for me please. thanks in advance richard.

scroggs
25th Nov 2006, 11:56
If you have read this thread, you have not read it properly. A caution is not a conviction, and only unspent convictions can affect the issue of an airside pass. From the Law on the Web site:

Cautions

Cautions, reprimands and final warnings are not criminal convictions and so are not dealt with by the Act. So if people with cautions, reprimands or final warnings only are asked whether they have any 'criminal convictions' they can answer 'no'. Sometimes people are asked if they have a 'criminal record'. This is a less precise term, but it is usually understood to mean convictions. So people who are asked if they have a 'criminal record' may also answer 'no' if they have no convictions.

However, people who are specifically asked if they have cautions, reprimands or final warnings should disclose them until they are deleted from police records. Records of cautions should be deleted after five years if there are no convictions on the record. (In practice, some police forces may retain records of cautions for much longer than this or indefinitely.)

Scroggs

Peelay
25th Nov 2006, 12:16
thanks scroggs, you've put my mind at ease.

waveydavey
25th Nov 2006, 13:13
When you apply to disclosure scotland to obtain an airside pass, they will contact your local police force, who will in turn divulge any convictions or cautions. Remember in accepting a caution you are admitting the offence, even though it is not a conviction.

Can I add that adding a post saying "I committed a minor crime 3 years ago" doesn't really allow anyone to offer any advice - affray can be regarded as a minor crime but it will prevent you getting clearance. Be specific if you want advice.
Another point to note - anyone that has been arrested for breach of the peace, which is a minor offence - this is not a crime and not recorded as a crime so should not affect you.

Peelay
25th Nov 2006, 13:26
reading the disclosure site, it says a basic criminal records check is all thats needed. The basic checks looks at convictions and since a caution is not a conviction im hoping it wont show up. fingers crossed.:bored:

Vortex Thing
25th Nov 2006, 14:56
Hi all.
If you are charged with an offence but not convicted (court case pending), does this mean you cannot apply for or obtain successfully an airside pass until vindicated?
Cheers

Moneytribe I have to disagree with AH above. This is not remotely a difficult question. Under British Law the answer is quite, quite clear.

Until you are innocent until proven guilty.

It does not matter that you have a case pending from a purely legal standpoint. That said IMHO it would be unwise to place an employer in the position of finding out about this pending case by surprise if you are soon to be issued an airside pass and/or hold an airside pass.

Sadly, though you are protected by law from discrimination on the basis of ethnicity, sexual orientation, disability, gender and religion/belief and since 1st Oct 06 age you are not if convicted protected by any law from discrimination as an ex-offender.

As such individual employers are at liberty to dismiss you instantly, suspend you or refuse to employ you if you have an unpsent conviction. There is nothing that you can do about this.

To be honest even when you are protected unless you have the money to take on an airlines HR/legal dept the chances are you are never going to gain anything whilst solvent. Otherwise every pilot over 40 who never gets interviews (which is most as some airlines never interview anyone too far past puberty) would be suing said airline for what is clearly a discriminatory practice.

Much as it would be good if somebody did do just this (i.e. it may result in some actual fairly based screening on things like experience, etc) then operators like perhaps Flybe may have to substantially increase their HR/legal budget. The reality is that we are (mostly) British and thus do not complain and further that even in the face of such blatant discrimination don't really expect the law to support us even when we are in the right. So we just smile on the outside and chunter quietly in private...

...Some thread creep but question answered at the top:=

Base leg
25th Nov 2006, 19:29
sorry to resurrect this thread again but im am after some of your wisdom. i have read all of your posts but im still not sure about my situation. 3 years ago i was cautioned for possesion of controlled drugs. this falls into the criteria of being uneligable for an airside pass. but what i would like to know is, does this only apply to a conviction or will it also apply to my caution? i would be very grateful for any light you can shine on this for me please. thanks in advance richard.

a caution becomes spent after 5 years if you are an adult at time of caution

a caution becomes spent after 3 years if you are a juvenille (17yrs and younger) at time of caution

although the rules for cautions have been re-written recently (Sept. 06) for cautions administered on or after 01/09/06 this will clearly not affect those cautioned pre Sept. 06

hope this helps:suspect:

BYALPHAINDIA
27th Nov 2006, 00:56
Hi,

I'm considering a career as a commercial pilot, but i have a conviction for careless driving.

Can anyone give me any info on how this could affect me? I asked Ryanair and they said it would not be a factor if i applied to them.

Also on the medical there is a section asking about driving while intoxicated convictions, but nothing about careless driving.

Any info appreciated.

As far as I am aware 'Careless Driving' carries a Custodial sentence of more than 5 years, with an early guilty plea you would/could get it reduced to 3.5 years.

Unfortunately Careless Driving falls in the category of 'most' serious of Driving offences along with Dangerous driving which carries 8 years, reduced on an early Guilty plea.

Drink driving is also a serious offence but, You are not actualy driving with intent but more likely to be driving unknowing that you are above 35ug of Breath.

I would not think Drink Driving would 'Rule' out a position with an Airline, But obviously it's a 'Blot' on the cv.

As far as I know Careless Driving will be on your record for 6 years.

I don't think many operators would entertain Careless Driving thou?


Whatever the outcome Best Wishes.

Regards. ;)

scroggs
28th Nov 2006, 07:52
BAI, in this and several other threads you spout ill-informed opinion rather than fact. All the information Mark needs to answer his question is already present, or linked to, in this thread - which you have obviously not read through. The process of obtaining a Criminal Record Check, and which factors affect the issue of an airside pass, are not a matter of opinion. Unresearched and ill-informed posts like yours only serve to increase anxiety rather than inform. Please think carefully before you post again.

Scroggs

irish_cessna
3rd Dec 2006, 23:53
any advice? 2 yrs ago i took the blame for my brother taking a car without permission as i he was in enuf trouble at the time, i was convicted, under some theft act i presume. it never bothered me then but now i look to a flying career, what sort of hassle do i face?? it prob makes no difference but they might have my d.o.b as 1981, not 1982 as shud be, that save me if i shut up? any advice be great thanks:ok:

scroggs
4th Dec 2006, 10:43
irish_cessna Try reading the thread. All of it. :rolleyes: :ugh:

Scroggs

frankboy
12th Jan 2007, 16:06
I am 19 years old, its been my dream to become a pilot, but stupidly i have recently (last week) received a drink driving conviction. DR10 i think is it referred to as. I have received a driving ban and a subsequent fine. I realise from speaking to various people in the industry that it should not affect my ability to get an airside pass nor to complete the APP course successfully, but i am concerned, and in desperate need of honest advice concerning the following.
1) at 19 and a 1/2 , i would theoretically be completed at oat at 21, so i assume the chances of gaining immediate employment are slight anyway. with the conviction against my name for the next 5 years, would i stand a realistic chance of gaining employment.
2)If However i was to delay training for a few years. for example 3 years, then with the approx period of training etc 2 years. this total delay period would be 5 years which would mean that i would not need to declare it to the potential employer.Would this be the better option.
I would really appreciate some honest advice on this matter as it is an enormous risk for me to take on.
look forward to hearing from you.
Frank

bluepeely
12th Jan 2007, 17:14
I've also been done for a DR10 mate and its a killer for nearlly everything in life. Every employer sees you as a walking piss can who sits in the park swigging cider, harsh but true. I got told by CTC that it failed me and i thought honesty might shine through. If i were you id leave it till 5yrs and tell no-one. Basically ignore what you've been taught by your parents and teachers all your life about being honest and take the advice of a complete stranger and lie :}

SingSong
12th Jan 2007, 17:31
I've also been done for a DR10 mate and its a killer for nearlly everything in life. Every employer sees you as a walking piss can who sits in the park swigging cider, harsh but true. I got told by CTC that it failed me and i thought honesty might shine through. If i were you id leave it till 5yrs and tell no-one. Basically ignore what you've been taught by your parents and teachers all your life about being honest and take the advice of a complete stranger and lie :}


Assuming i'm not missing any hidden sarcasm (i'm tired and i may be) don't lie about it. As a previous poster said airlines will look carefully at people with DUI convictions, you will be in control of a plane with 10's if not hundreds of passengers, they want to be sure you won't be a liability. if they ask you have to tell them the truth. it's that simple. lying could have a far greater implication should they decide to check.

when will you be allowed your licence back? if you can go a few years with a clean licence it might just show you've changed. I can't give guarantees, but i'd maybe wait a year or so, get a part time job, maybe, if you can afford it, obtain your PPL (if you haven't one already) at least you'd be working toward your dream. in the long run i believe it shouldn't harm you too much, it's just the immediate few years that might be hard (and the first job, but the first job will always be hard)

Thats my thoughts anyway. Just remember, don't do it again. that would really hurt.

maxdrypower
12th Jan 2007, 17:44
There wasa thread about it thats right you should be able to find it ona search, failing that , Do not under any circumstances lie . All potential pilots will be checked via the criminal records bureau . So unless your changing your entire identity you will be found out .You will then be looking for a job with an integrity marker against your name as well as a DR10 , there are also various criminal offences you could commit by omitting it from your application . The rehabilitation of offenders act allows for persons with criminal records to gai employment without prejudice but you have to tell them you have it . Just be prepared for any amount of questions on interview and have a good answer for it , youthful excuberence will only stall them for about 5 seconds

no sponsor
12th Jan 2007, 18:29
I was recently on an advanced handling course at CTC and one of the others on the course who was joining a LCC and was a current Captain for a TP airline had gotten a drink driving offence when he was a young lad.

Avadoo
12th Jan 2007, 20:39
Also unfortunately, the DR10 code has to remain on your licence for a total of eleven years from the date of conviction. This can be highly embarrassing, for example when trying to hire cars, using your licence as day to day ID or in HR departments. Its a constant reminder to you.

Have a go at an appeal if you still have the time and you feel you can prove it was genuine misjudgment, otherwise try to get on with life. Your 30th birthday will arrive a lot quicker than you think!

ploppy
13th Jan 2007, 17:40
I've also been done for a DR10 mate and its a killer for nearlly everything in life. Every employer sees you as a walking piss can who sits in the park swigging cider, harsh but true. I got told by CTC that it failed me and i thought honesty might shine through. If i were you id leave it till 5yrs and tell no-one. Basically ignore what you've been taught by your parents and teachers all your life about being honest and take the advice of a complete stranger and lie :}


Before witholding any information requested I would make sure you are not obliged to disclose it. On the 15th January 2007 the fraud act 2006 comes into force, this contains an offence of "Fraud by failing to disclose information", which basically amounts to not disclosing information dishonestly with the intention of making a personal gain, i.e. get a job you would otherwise not obtain.
This may also affect things like medical conditions etc and class 1 medicals.

maxdrypower
13th Jan 2007, 17:51
Just remember contrary to advice above , re not having DR10 on your licence , just because it is not on your licence doesnt mean it doesnt exist . It is not the same as having points on your licence which are not discloeseable it is a conviction from court which does . There is no hiding it if you have the conviction you are going to have to live with it and face up to it . As per the fraud act mentioned above you would also be in contravention of the aforementioned rehabilitiation of offenders act plus any contract you sign with an airline , imagine starting on day one with your new TR then being sacked for lack of disclosure on application form , this would also be stapled to any other application you ever fill in , Not good I would just do your training and join the job market like everyone else , but like has already been said who would you employ ??

scroggs
13th Jan 2007, 18:24
Read this whole thread. All of it. A very few (small) airlines require you to hold a clean driving licence as self-drive-hire is sometimes used for positioning, but the vast majority are not interested in whether you can drive or not. Most employers accpet that applicants have made mistakes in the past; they want to see that you have learned from your mistakes and rehabilitated your behaviour.

Above all, be very careful about accepting 'advice' from those who have little or no knowledge, and are simply pontificating supposition and assumption. There are a great many here who have never been involved in recruiting others, or even in obtaining employment themselves, and know even less about the procedures involved in obtaining airside and airline passes.

Scroggs

mcgoo
13th Jan 2007, 18:25
According to the rahablititaion of offenders act a DR10 is classed as spent after 5 years so if an an employer asks if you have any convictions you can answer no, only if the the conviction is still unspent ie within the 5 years could they sack you for not disclosing it.

Wee Weasley Welshman
13th Jan 2007, 20:59
At 19 i'd say leave it five years before you get to job application time and then don't mention it as you don't have to.

To be honest you are more likely to get a job at 24 than 19/20/21 (howls of protest from them that have) because really you have a bit of growing up to do yet and thats probably best done outside of the airline pilot role.

Good luck, its happened to many better smarter men than you,

Cheers

WWW

TelBoy
14th Jan 2007, 01:02
It is your right NOT to disclose after 5 years and I would say not to. You can obtain your record from the CRB to see what it says. I think you only need a basic disclosure for an airside pass and this is what most employers get - it will NOT show your conviction when it is spent - so DON'T offer the information. Do your homework before any application as there is an advanced disclosure that people like police etc have to give and this shows everything, spent or not, remember things might change with security around aviation.

In the mean time get your PPL etc and get some hours in and build your CV - make yourself attractive to employers, by experience, qualifications etc to stand a chance of getting that job, yes in 5 years time.

Remember if you apply for a job before your conviction is spent you MUST declare it. If the employer then turns you down and you go back to them after your conviction is spent, they still have it on their records - what to do then????

Good luck and don't be so stupid again.

spitfire_007
19th Jan 2007, 17:31
I am new to this forum and I have read the whole thread on criminal convictions etc. I would be most grateful if someone on here, could help me with some information with regards to spent convictions on the Police National Computer (PNC).

Is it correct that convictions become spent after 5 years (depending on the length of sentence given) and are subsequently wiped from the PNC once spent? What is classed as a 'minor' offence?

I was bound over for being drunk and disorderly eight years ago and I am worried that this may have an effect on finding a job as a commercial airline pilot upon completing my training if a standard or enhanced discloure is required (in terms of national security).

I know basic disclosures do not show spent convictions but there is absolutely no guarantee, that following the tragic events of 9/11, Airlines won't request that all pilots have a standard or enhanced discloure certificate and Aviation will remain unexempt from the RoA.

I have sent off an application from to see what information the Police hold about me on the PNC.

Any information would be of help.....thank you :ok:

scroggs
19th Jan 2007, 23:51
Spitfire, if you have read this whole thread you have missed quite a lot of it! All of your questions are answered perfectly clearly in here. Please go back and read it again - I appreciate that you may have to filter through some dross, but I promise all the info is here.
Scroggs

Peelay
21st Jan 2007, 20:48
spitfires comment about upping the disclosures from basic to standard or enhanced got me thinking. could this be the case in the future? surely employers would find things out about crew which previously went unnoticed and then pilots all over would be gettin fired . if they didnt fire them but they used the new levels of disclosure to not employ new aplicants this would be unfair on people trying to get into the industry?

scroggs
22nd Jan 2007, 11:04
And yet another who needs to go back and read the thread - your question has been addressed already. :rolleyes:

Scroggs

StanSayz
24th Jan 2007, 19:57
I know it can be frustrating, and you guys here in particular, get mardy with duplicate posts, so apologies if this has been addressed previously, but I HAVE sifted through about 80% of the posts in this thread, as well as performing multiple forum searches to see if I could attain the information I'm after, but to little success as of yet...

1. I read in this thread (somewhere), that the current JAA Class 1 medical examination or application requires you to disclose DUI convictions, I was just wondering if somebody clued up on this could offer me advice on this as its not much change from £500 notes nowadays and I'm not interested in 'wasting' that kind of money...

2. By the same token, relating to DUI, how much is this likely to effect the M1 training visa for the US. I plan to train JAA in the States due to the significant value it represents, but again, am concerned with my previous misdemeanour. Again not sure if this is of relevance, but I do currently hold a C1/D (transit) US Visa, as I went to work on a cruise ship after finishing University, and this doesn't expire 'till 2017, but this was granted before my DUI conviction.

It is nowhere near spent under the rehabilitation act, and I'm well aware of the 10 year active endorsement and 11 year visibility on my licence.

* Just a point that people in similar situations to me might be interested to hear though, I completed the drink driving rehabilitation course that is offered in my area that reduced my 20 month ban to 15 and am now considered a low risk driver to insurance companies!!!

spitfire_007
25th Jan 2007, 17:47
Thanks scroggs...must have missed it! After further investigation, I have managed to find some additional information, on 'weeding' or more commonly known today, as 'stepping down' of criminal convictions on the PNC and the relevance of this additional police information, when Standard or Enhanced CRB checks are requested. Currently, Airlines require a basic disclosure but there is absolutely no guarantee that this will remain the case!!!

For those people who are concerned with regards to their convictions, regardless of whether they are spent or unspent and any other police information on the PNC, the additional links may be of use-


http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/news-and-publications/publication/operational-policing/Bichard_Step_Model_Retention.pdf?version=1

http://www.knowledgenetwork.gov.uk/HO/circular.nsf/79755433dd36a66980256d4f004d1514/d01e5f8d3a98a19880256f870038bbfe?OpenDocument

To clarify....

Disclosures - Basic - do not show spent convictions, providing the conviction/s occurred more than five years ago.

Standard - Show spent and unspent convictions

Enhanced - Show spent and unspent convictions and any other relevant (to the occupation) police information from the PNC.

Currently, Aviation is not one of the professions that is exempt from the Rehabilitation of Offenders act and so currently, a Basic Disclosure is required.

However, some Airlines if not all, may decide in the future, due to national security, Standard or Enhanced Disclosures will be the minimum requirement for new and/or existing employees within the Aviation Profession.

If the Airline is exempt from the RoA, then you need to state your convictions. Do not lie.

The information above, is entirely of my own interpretation, and the links above, should help some people on here.

Hope this helps :ok:

jazzy75
26th Jan 2007, 10:27
I need some advice. Im about to apply for a US crew visa. Now on the form it says "Have you ever been arrested or convicted for any offense, even though subject of a pardon, amnesty or other similar legal action?"
Last year i was arrested for drink driving as i was over by 6 units but then at the police station when they did the official breath test it was 31 meaning i was under, therefore i was de-arrested and free to go. Should i declare this on the US visa form? Would this information be on the PNC and more importantly available to the US embassy if they were to do a background check? I have just sent off for a subject access report. :confused:

StanSayz
26th Jan 2007, 21:55
I'm no lawyer but I do have a decent understanding, and unfortunately I do have some familiarity with your situation (although not quite as much as I'd have liked!!!)

The term you use here that I must turn your attention back to is this lovely word "de-arrested". Now whatever you've read, been told or heard - you were not "de-arrested", you were very much arrested (on suspicion of driving/ attempting to drive with more than 80mg alcohol per 100ml blood), the Police were unable to provide sufficient and acceptable evidence to charge you and refer you to a magistrates court, and therefore had to release you without charge (hats off to your liver for getting shut of the additional 6 units before they got you to the station - was it a long drive?!?!) ***Did they take prints and DNA - just out of personal interest???

So in response to the essential query of your post, no one can tell you definitively either way what to declare on your Visa form, that decision will rest ultimately with you, but one thing is for sure, if the US Embassy does do a check then I'm afraid it will (as in should) show up on the Police database. How long an arrest without charge remains on the PNC I'm not entirely sure but from what I gather any information on the PNC can be held indefinately - if this is wrong someone please correct me!

My advice would be to declare it, and I'd speculate that, due to the specific circumstances of your case, there is an 85% chance of you getting your Visa without hearing anything of it. If you do hear of it, and it is proving a sticking point, I'd suggest you have MASSIVE scope for an appeal that any two-bit emmigration lawyer could handle in a fairly straight forward manner, with delay being the main inconvenience. Lets be honest, there are a number of indicative factors that suggest our cousins across the pond don't take DUI as seriously as ourselves (Their president being a convicted DD, the "Walk straight along this straight line painted on the floor in front of you, as opposed to roadside breathalysers)

If this is the only thing you've ever done wrong, then like I say (hopefully not building you up too much) I think you'll have no problems at all. I would suggest though that if you do have other history spent or unspent in terms of rehab of offenders, I'd declare it all.

*It maybe worth getting some professional advice before you go any further if funds permit, I'm sure it would only be about £100 tops to see a a specialist immigration/emmigration solicitor about this anyhow, which isn't OTT for peace of mind.

Whatever you do decide good luck and keep me/us posted for interests sake :ok:

jazzy75
27th Jan 2007, 13:27
Hey StanSayz, thanks for the advice....well ive applied for a subject access report so that should tell me what info there is about me on the PNC...No DNA was taken from me....im not sure about finger prints though i can't really remember. To be honest when i was arrested it took about 40 mins to get to the station in which time i had come down by 6 units and this is the funny bit...before i even got in the police van the officer said 'oh you'll be fine'!!!!! I think i had to be arrested because at the time i was over the limit! I spoke to a friend of mine earlier who asked her policeman friend and he said that for it to go on the PNC it has to be a 'real' arrest with a charge that results in a caution or conviction...if your arrested and then released the record is scrapped???....but we shall see what my subject access report says....in regards to the US embassy if they were to do a check which is apparently performed by the home office/scotland yard on their behalf wouldn't they only be looking for cautions or convictions/criminal records? Im sure arrests wouldnt be disclosed to them??

spitfire_007
27th Jan 2007, 20:56
jazzy and for thers who are concerned with regards to their convictions, regardless of whether they are spent or unspent and any other police information on the PNC, the additional links may be of use-


http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/news-and-publications/publication/operational-policing/Bichard_Step_Model_Retention.pdf?version=1

http://www.knowledgenetwork.gov.uk/HO/circular.nsf/79755433dd36a66980256d4f004d1514/d01e5f8d3a98a19880256f870038bbfe?OpenDocument


The information you require is in the link.

bfg01
1st Mar 2007, 11:09
Hi there,

I recently got caught drink driving. I'd had a sleep, thought I was okay but apparently not. Probably going to get banned for around 18months. I can get 1/4 of this off by doing a rehabilitation course.

I was wondering if it was worthwhile applying to FTOs with this hanging over me or should I wait until the ban has passed?

I know it was stupid, lost my girlfirend, driving license and a few hundred quid over it so believe me I know it was stupid. I don't need any feedback on that front though I'm sure I'll get some.

Thanks for any views,

bfg

UP and Down Operator
1st Mar 2007, 11:30
I am sure everybody has done something stupid that they regret, and that will hopefully just give some hard learned lessons. You would not be the first in this industry that have had an "ups" with alcohol and probably not the last either.

A good friend of mine did something similar to you and lost the drivers license for several years, and on top of that CAA decided to take his flying license as well. The guy was (is) a really good pilot and he just continued to fight, and now as he got his flying license back, he managed to land a job flying Bizzjets, even though his policerecord is not cleared yet.

I will suggest that you apply to the FTO you wish to join, and if they are too high on their horses to take you, then find someone else. Loosing your license because you have had a "down" period doesn't make you an alcoholic, and therefore I can see no excuse why you should not be able to start training (assuming that is what you are looking for??).

I don't know about the legal issues though, but if you don't fight you won't win :}

Never give up, and good luck :ok:

B200Drvr
1st Mar 2007, 12:33
bfg01,
Advice from someone who has hired and conducted interviews. Go for the rehab course to get it reduced, and wait till it is in the past. Dont ever go to an interview with something like this hanging over you, alot of interview boards will dismiss your resume on a pending action, without you getting the chance to explain, but not one in your history. Its done its over, just try to do everything you can to make it better. Good luck.

scroggs
1st Mar 2007, 14:34
When you 'apply' to an FTO, you are offering them the opportunity to take several tens of thousands of pounds off your hands. Believe me, they won't give a damn about any conviction you have short of flying into tall buildings; they just want your money.

When it comes to applying people who are going to pay you, however, it's a different matter. Once you have served your ban, regained your licence and had time to show that you've learned some lessons, you'll be fine - but you will have to reveal your conviction for several years to come on each and every application. Until then, you'll be regarded as an irresponsible individual who's not ready to be trusted. As the ban you're expecting and your training are about the same length, that shouldn't really be too much of a problem.

As for getting an airside pass, drink-driving is not an offence that would affect that, under current rules.

Scroggs

bfg01
1st Mar 2007, 15:29
Thanks for the advice guys, and sorry Scroggs, did a quick search but didn't find this thread. I might email a couple of the biger FTOs and see what they reckon about it, annonymously, and see what I think is best. Probably just have to leave it for a while I think.

Thanks again,
bfg

SILVERCAR
22nd Mar 2007, 17:52
Does a drink driving conviction & short Ban effect your CPL and FI rating or indeed your aircraft insurance?

captain_rossco
23rd Mar 2007, 07:27
Drink Driving has been known not to be a problem dependent on the airline, I can assure you (without naming them) of an individual who is working for an airline with just such a recent conviction. Driving whilst disqualified is also a charge that has been overlooked, even though it carries a possible sentence!

Regards

Rossco

wbryce
23rd Mar 2007, 09:25
DD is an offence under the road traffic act (driving related offence), its not a criminal conviction. It won't hurt your DofT standings for an air side pass, the only implications this has is during your employment process were most airlines ask candidates to declare driving offences. If you list you have DD, your chances of getting that job are next to nothing. Don't declare it and you've already breached the declaration (sackable offence).

Once an offence is considered spent you don't have to declare it.

scroggs
23rd Mar 2007, 14:39
Three off-topic posts deleted.

If you want to discuss the rights and wrongs of penalties for DD convictions, go to Jet Blast or to another board entirely. This forum is for aviation topics relevent to Wannabes, and this topic is about the aviation ramifications of having a conviction (not necessarily criminal). For those who need the information, it's already here in this thread. If you have nothing useful to add, don't add anything.

Scroggs

Re-Heat
18th Apr 2007, 09:55
Rangas - doubtful. A good friend of mine had the same situation within the UK, and has not had a problem gaining a CAA licence since, and is now flying commercially.

As long as you recognise it was silly...

andybromleyno1
19th Apr 2007, 20:56
Recently a friend of mine who has recently qualified (FATPL) decided with a group of friends to go and have a look at the out of service 747 at the topgear site (Dunsfold Park).
not thinking it was a big deal hopped the fence and subsequently got startled by security and chased of the site. The police were called and he got arrested.
He owned up and admitted at interview thinking it was a harmless act, thinking a slap on the wrist and on your way would result.
As it turns out his buddy has be charged and cautioned under the terrorism act!!(trespass on an aerodrome)
My friend has yet to be called back. it is highly lightly the same caution will result. As the anti terrorism act is a disqualifying offense he is extremely worried and doesn't know whether to accept the caution and hope it is not flagged on the disclosure or to not accept and hope the case does not get to Court.
A very silly but harmless idea has turned into something very serious.
he has no previous run-ins with the police.
any information or opinions would be well received.

RSinha
19th Apr 2007, 22:41
If he accepts a caution, then he will have a caution under the terrorism act. Whether that will be flagged on disclosure, I don't know.

I personally wouldn't, and would be more willing to take it to court. Ultimately, in court, you are given the opportunity to explain yourself, and explain your circumstances, all will go towards what the judge decides. No reasonable judge would knowingly ruin a guys career for the sake of a lark. I know one personally, and from what I understand, impact on the individuals future play a MASSIVE part, when doling out punishments.

There's also the possibility of not guilty for ANYTHING... depending on the number of charges brought against him, trespass etc.

I wouldn't worry, if its as innocent as it seems, which I'm sure it is..

Next time, tell him - when approached by security when doing something harmless which he thinks is legal/knows no better, Don't do a runner!

Re-Heat
20th Apr 2007, 07:48
Cautions are flagged on the Disclosure.

High Wing Drifter
20th Apr 2007, 07:50
Andy, Tell your mate to visit a local branch http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/. If they can't provide the information needed (they won't guess), they will ensure that your mate is in contact with the most appropriate solicitor to provide advice for the problem. The advice will not only be correct but will probably be free. They have saved me stacks of cash and stress in the past!

Rangas
22nd Apr 2007, 19:07
---removed---

Peelay
28th Apr 2007, 09:28
"Cautions are flagged on the Disclosure".




this is off the BA site.


- PLEASE NOTE: Cautions, reprimands and final warnings are not considered to be criminal convictions and so are not covered by the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act. Cautions, reprimands and final warnings become 'spent' immediately.

sn0w
1st Jun 2007, 14:58
hello all. after talking to my instructer about my situation he recommended i try asking here as well so here goes...

i have read 100% of this thread and still havent found a definitave answer to my question and situation, i would really apreciate it if somone could take the time out to read my post.

i am 27 years old and have just started my ppl training aspiring to become an airline pilot. unfortunatly i got pulled over in my car 2 months ago and failed the roadside breath test. went to the police station and blew 2 tests.. 1 was 3 over the limit and 1 was 3 under. the police couldnt charge me with those results and it went to a blood test. according to my lawyer i should have been released on those results but the police opted to go for blood. the results turned out to be 86. the limit is 80. basicaly right down the line. what annoyed me is that i only had 1 drink and thought i was well under the limit. i havent gone to court yet but my lawyer is obviously going to get try and get me cautioned as the results are so boarderline.

assuming i do get convicted. i am obviously very concerned about my chances of getting a job. im expecting it to be harder of cause but if there is still a chance i can get work with this on my record im going to continue my training. im aiming to get my ATPL when i hit 30/31 and start looking for a job.

so my question at the end of the day is...

will it still be possible for me to get a job as an airline pilot with this as a past conviction?

thx alot for reading

waveydavey
2nd Jun 2007, 18:17
I'm not sure how the airlines consider drink drive offences, but the conviction is spent after 5 years anyway with regards to employment, even though it remains on your driving licence for 11 years. So you'll be 32 at is expiry -not far off your target for empoyment.

On another issue I don't think you have quite understood the circumstances of your tests, as in the conditions you describe you could not have been charged and neither could blood tests have been taken.

The limit for breath tests is 35 microgrammes of alcohol per 100 millilitres of breath, however to allow for errors in accuracy of the test you are actually allowed to show 39 microgrammes of alcohol per 100 millilitres of breath. If you blow between 40 and 50 you are given the option to have a blood or urine test. The decision for which test is done is the cops. This is then analysed by a lab and any charges are based on those results. From what you say it sounds like you blew 3 under and 3 over the 49 limit - which puts you in a not very good position.

They can't caution you for it either, its an obligitory charge.

However, as in my earlier comment I would not worry yourself too much, by the time you are considering employment the conviction is spent.

Good luck.

sn0w
4th Jun 2007, 13:15
thankyou for the reply. i was thinking 32 wouldnt be the end of the world to start seeking employment. i might take my time with the training.

quickly about the police resutls. the exact results i blew were 43 and 37. 40 being the level the police prosecute on. the police have to take the lowest reading (37) and therefore i should have been released. those results are very very low in the grand scheme of things.. i was just very unlucky.

waveydavey
7th Jun 2007, 14:41
You're right - you were very unlucky. Has it gone to court yet? It may be that your solicitor can argue that this should be dropped by the cps before the court date.

spitfire_007
16th Aug 2007, 17:35
If you have been found guilty of 'drink driving' within the last five years or any other conviction, they will be stated on the basic disclosure. After five years, they will become spent and will not appear on a basic disclosure. You have been successfully been 'rehabilitated'.

However, and I have stated this before, there is no guarantee that new and existing airlines, won't require an enhanced disclosure for future applicants and existing pilots.

Enhanced disclosures will show - spent/unspent convictions, cautions, bind-overs and any pending charge/s.

If you fail to disclose any spent/unspent convictions, cautions, bind-overs and any pending charge/s you may be removed, of your duties immediately.

Honesty is the best policy.

spitfire ;)

muffan
16th Aug 2007, 20:10
i saw on basic disclousere scotland that if you have an unspent conviction you can apply for a letter of disregard,that the conviction should be regarded as spent. Will this be shown to the employer or only to me,if i you get the letter of disregerd

bluepeely
17th Aug 2007, 20:00
My arse honesty is the best policy , the best policy is getting yourself a job and drawing money back from the thousands we've spent training. If you get caught out 6 months into your job for having a conviction you didn't declare and get sacked well fair do's but you will have x amount of hours on a type and had a paypacket. A lot more than if you declared a stupid bang up from 10yrs ago thats classed as spent but not in the eyes of an enhanced enclosure. You'll be more employable with those hours on type.... Expaining why you left an airline in such a short space of time may be a problem but the pro's will still outway the cons........And who's to say you'll get caught and would they sack you anyway?????

Look after number 1:ok:

No Country Members
17th Aug 2007, 20:38
Which is possibly the sort of attitude which got you here in the first place.

spitfire_007
19th Aug 2007, 19:25
:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

spitfire_007
29th Aug 2007, 19:32
Muffan, if your employer requires an enhanced certificate, they should be registered with the CRB. You will be given a form to fill in and return. Once all of the checks have been performed, a certificate will be sent to you and your employer. With reference to your other concern regarding unspent convictions; these will show up on basic and enhanced disclosures if you were convicted less than five years ago. Any convictions over 5 years will not show on a basic but will continue to be shown on enhanced disclosures.

Blue, I can see your point with regards to spending lots of money on training in order to achieve your dream; just like the thousands of other pilots throughout the world..... However, if your current employer requests for you to apply for a enhanced disclosure and somethings were to materialise on the enhanced certificate, which you didn't disclose on your application form, they are quite within their right to dismiss you, even after 6 years, nevermind 6 months! What would you do then? The Aviation industry, just like many other industries, is a very, very small world. I would rather people be honest than lie on an application form or in an interview.

Currently, the aviation industry requires only a basic disclosure but there is no guarantee that this will remain the case in future years (they may require an enhanced disclosure), in light of the current events going on in the world.

Alltheway
1st Sep 2007, 23:01
Hello,

I'm due to commence Integrated Frozen ATPL Training but have an old Drink Driving Conviction. I've cleared this with the CAA but wondered if anyone had any experience with how this may affect Employement?

Any comments appreciated.

joe
2nd Sep 2007, 09:11
I'm sure they will throw a party for you and welcome you with a pint. Can't make a decision whether drink driving is right or wrong and now you want to fly!.

A safe training bet for any airline.

Alltheway
2nd Sep 2007, 09:38
Thanks for jumping in there with a massive judgement. I know its wrong and their are mitigating Circumstances. I've always wanted to fly and am already a PPL(H) holder.

In any event I was looking for someone with possible experience of this.

AlexD121
2nd Sep 2007, 10:02
Don't take this personally mate, but what mitigating circumstances can there be for drink driving? This shows a lack of judgement and that you are prepared to put other peoples lives at risk, can an airline afford to take that risk with a 100 odd people sitting behind you??

That said, who's to say that people can't learn from their mistakes and become better people in the end?

shaun ryder
2nd Sep 2007, 10:06
Lets put it this way, its hardly going to help you is it? :rolleyes:

Alltheway
2nd Sep 2007, 10:07
Most Job Application form's ask for Criminal Convictions excluding Driving Offences. I wonder if this is true of Airline form's?

5150
2nd Sep 2007, 10:13
I'll answer your Q without getting on some soapbox like some feel they have to here.

I know 2 guys in my previous company who both had DD convictions.

From their experience I'd say one didn't get a job as he was asked about it at interview.

That said, they're both in jet jobs now, so I'd say if they don't ask, don't tell.

joe
2nd Sep 2007, 10:18
Any comments appreciated so dry your eyes!.

Check and see if it will affect you disclosure Scotland.

r44flyer
2nd Sep 2007, 10:22
Good point above, as all airlines will carry out a background security check which I believe will throw up any criminal convictions. Find that out first, and if they're going to find out about it anyway it might as well be as part of a rehearsed script from you!

Alltheway
2nd Sep 2007, 10:25
Thanks for Frank reply. I thought in order to gain Airside Security Clearance that an Airline would do a Police Check?

Rollerboy
2nd Sep 2007, 10:38
Whether mitigating circumstances exist or not, your records will remain on the Criminal History System and Police Records Computer, both of which show up on the Disclosure Scotland form. There is no way of hiding this fact unless the offence is subject to "weeding".

I suggest you check out www.disclosurescotland.co.uk to see the ins and outs of records.

Be mindful of the fact that airside passes and company employment now require a check so maybe just saying nothing is a mistake. That said I do know of one person with a very distant charge now working so it isn't impossible. However if this is a recent charge airlines may not be so relaxed for reasons above.

Just look at the facts before spending the money. As you see on this site it's difficult enough getting that first job!

Alltheway
2nd Sep 2007, 10:40
Have just found out its upto the individual to gain an Airside Security Pass from Scotland Disclosure. DD Conviction does not exclude me. Thanks for Comments.

grababadger
2nd Sep 2007, 19:05
I was convicted of DD earlier this year and although there is no excuse-it would take a fool to say there are never any mitigating circumstances and as for those jolly old folks who are quick to judge, well let me tell you...

Around 90% of drivers will at some point be over the limit, how many people drink post night out and don't even realise they are over the limit?? People assume that they are ok, luckily MOST dont get caught.

Iv'e spent 6 years at university and have just started flight training and there is no way am I going to give up now. The majority of people relate DD with a drink disorder-which is far wrong in most cases.

When I went to court my 'prosecuter' admitted that it's just unlucky for some and went on to admit that he had drank and drove before.

Cmvidini I really would not give up providing you have the strength of character to prove yourself. We all make mistakes, some worse than others but dont let your dream go past you and don't listen to the words of negativity and remember you have paid for your crime and are less likely to re-offend than most.

Diamond_Dog
2nd Sep 2007, 19:32
Cmvidini,

There's a fairly hefty thread relating to your plight on page 2 of this forum..

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=204938

I'm sure if you sift through all the usual claptrap, you'll find some useful nuggets.

Hope it all works out..

bunnywabbit
2nd Sep 2007, 20:42
The wonderful Mr Blair.
He had a crack down on crime and another 3000 offences are now classed as criminal ! So an eighteen year old on rag week takes a leek in the street and is caught by the plod is a criminal ( court appearance etc ) I have a criminal driving conviction (yes over the limit and grassed on ) It has now expired on the rehab of offenders act 1974, but they what me to do dury service NO I CAN NOT I AM A CONVICTED CRIMAL AND I AM EXEMPT UNDER RULE 177.

Quite honestly carry on with the training steer clear of major airlines for a few years and you will be OK.

The youngster caught pissing in the street was my sister, she has completed her medical degree and will be on A+E for a while probably having to do a repair for a DD. AS a DOCTOR WITH A CRIMINAL RECORD SHE IS ALSO EXEPT UNDER RULE 177.

Well Done TONY BLAIR

Alltheway
3rd Sep 2007, 10:25
Hi Bunny,

Thanks for all your positive comments. May I ask how long it takes under the Rehabilitation Act for the DD Offence to be Spent?

grababadger
3rd Sep 2007, 19:54
I completely agree, although I still drink (like most) i am convinced that if you have been convicted and you have untaken a Rehabilitation course then you are less likely to risk it again, especially if you have career on line etc and more to the point you realise the dangers of DD.

Maybe all us convicted folk should meet up for a drink and discuss this matter further :).

and the chap said
5th Sep 2007, 12:17
If it has been 5 years since your conviction, you don't even have to declare it ever happened and it doesn't show up on the Disclosure certificate. Hence the term 'spent conviction'. If this if the case for you now or by the time you start applying for jobs, you have nothing to worry about.

A good friend of mine was in you predicament and was naturally concerned. After graduating oxford in 2003 he got his first jet job on 737s a few months later. He's now on the airbus and loving it. No one ever asked him, he didn't volunteer it and has no obligation to either.

If flying is what you want and you're determined, I wouldn't let this slow you down anymore than it already has. It happened, you paid for it, you know it'll never happen again, so why re-live it. I wouldn't listen to the judgemental individuals on here either, they have no idea what they're talking about. Our more positive friends above seem to be a little more objective and that's nice to see.

Best of luck and enjoy the flying,
atcs

camel toe
5th Sep 2007, 13:13
"Around 90% of drivers will at some point be over the limit"

Is that gospel or one of them made up down the pub ones?

grababadger
5th Sep 2007, 18:03
Thats what they call an estimate, I can make it 93.225% to make is sound like a real statistic. Im sure it's somewhere around 90%...

Feel free to carry out a survey, for which all candidates will respond negative.

Anyway what's wrong with pub stats, that's where people make their life changing decisions (not always the right ones:)

spitfire_007
6th Sep 2007, 20:21
cmv, click on the link below. It may take you a while but there are some useful links and various stories in there, which will help to clarify your situation. Read the whole thread.........:ok:




http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=204938

spitfire_007
6th Sep 2007, 20:24
Basic disclosures are available online for a fee of £20.

johnsmotor
26th Sep 2007, 16:47
Hi, I was charged with a public disorder offence approximately 8 years ago and was "bound over to keep the peace" for one year. I wasn't even aware that this was a form of conviction as I was young and niave at the time. Will this show up on a PNC check or do I have to declare it at all when I apply for jobs?

Many thanks

EZYramper
26th Sep 2007, 17:21
I got done for a section 5 of the public disorder act...Swearing in the presence of a policeman. Yep, you read that right: not AT the policeman, just in the presence of. How ridiculous. Freedom of speech ay?

Well politics aside, it didn't show up on my Disclosure to gain an airside pass for baggage handling and it didn't affect my visa application for New Zealand so I wouldn't worry about it. The best thing to do is get yourself a disclosure, it's only £20.

RS999
26th Sep 2007, 22:25
Not too sure about England and Wales but in Scotland the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act cancels out the majority of offences after a given period of time. Once 'spent' these offences should not show up on a Disclosure Scotland certificate. Obviously the length of time before an offence is deemed to be spent depends on the severity of the offence commited.:ok:

Also, in Scotland if you are given a Police Caution/Warning for an Offence it does not have to be declared to an employer as it does not give you a 'Criminal Record' but this is not the case in England and Wales. I only know this as my brother (who is Scottish) was recently sacked for not declaring a caution for assault which occurred in London. He thought that, like Scotland, it did not give him a record in England.

scroggs
27th Sep 2007, 08:41
The reason this thread - and indeed the whole forum - is here is that all these question have been answered within it. Please do yourselves the favour of reading it.

Scroggs

LewisA
5th Nov 2007, 16:51
Hi,

I have only just registered on here, so please forgive me folks if this is posted in the wrong place. I have read through the entire thread with some useful information to bear in mind in relation to criminal records. i want to start ab-initio flight training late next year as i have a good job with good pay, have worked my arse off to save and also have a few things in my favour, but i do have a very serious concern, and it may not suprise you but it begins with ' a few years back i did something i shouldnt have ' sound familiar lol.

Anyway at the age of 19 i was caught in posession of cannabis and was subsequently taken to court and issued with a 12 criminal discharge, i am now 27 nearly 28 and so if i did obtain all of the licences/ratings i would be around 30 and would be deemed a 'spent conviction' anyway. Just wondered if anybody has some honest opinions with regards to possible recruitment as it certainly doesn't go in my favour, i am making the worst possible assumption that the rules around disclosure change and that airlines will require an advanced one. I would like to think that by passing the exams and obtaining the relevant qualifications that would itself serve as edvidence of a reformed character and am thinking that i should just go full steam ahead anyway ..

I couldn't find anything within the thread that mentioned about drug offences .. Any comments or opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Wee Weasley Welshman
5th Nov 2007, 21:01
If something you shouldn't have done involved smuggling cannabis then I think that would look VERY bad to any prospective airline employer whether it was spent or not.

Why prod you with a bargepole when there are hundreds, nay thousands, of identical CV's on the desk from nice young men who've never been convicted or a drugs offense (of any kind or degree)?

Sorry, but its the real world we are talking about here.

WWW

johnsmotor
7th Nov 2007, 22:36
Sorry but have I missed something here? He didn't claim he was a drug smuggler, was caught on what was a very minor offence for which he received a conditional discharge. I'm not a criminal lawyer but i'm sure smugglers would receive much worse, the clue is in the punishment received.

As I posted earlier, about the same time scale ago I was convicted of a minor public disorder offence, and both my police PNC check and a Disclosure Scotland showed no offences of any kinds. Under the laws of the UK once a minor conviction is spent, it does not preclude you from holding a responsible job in aviation.

Alot of people make a silly mistake when they are young, but the majority mature and grow out of their childish whims. I recently secured my first job with just 270 hrs, RHS on jet, modular student with no industry contacts. I was a bit nervous when I first applied for my airside pass, but purely based on unfounded comments from pprune "know it alls"

LewisA, get on with it, thankfully the majority of our society accept human err without the sort of pedantic unfounded response you have received.

Good luck!

Wee Weasley Welshman
8th Nov 2007, 04:59
Bringing back say an 8th of Cannabis resin from a weekend in Amsterdam might well be considered a minor offense and is typical of a youthful mistake. But it would still be drug smuggling.

Some minor offenses look worse than others to the 55yr old Telegraph reading airline interviewer..

In a tight labour market where new pilots with low hours are urgently in short supply such things would not matter much. But.

WWW

GuyAK
27th Jan 2010, 19:41
Hello can anyone help me here. I have a spent criminal conviction for assault when I was 16 (10 years ago). I have read your thread and it appears that as it 'spent' I donít need to disclose it. So therefore I wonít have a problem getting an airside path. However, the rehabilitation of offenders act only applies to the UK. So how difficult would it be finding employment? For UK airliners I would not need to disclose it, but to a foreign carrier I would and what about visa issue when flying into places such as America etc.

Thanks for your help.

AlpineSkier
27th Jan 2010, 20:01
@<hidden>

One big thing there is that your employer can use this to dismiss you instantly if you don't disclose and they later find out.