BANKRUPTCY!! Pushed to the edge....

[anotherbrokepilot]

I am CPL/IR holder with all the trimmings, MCC, Instructor ratings, etc. Basically done everything financially I can do to get that oh-so-elusive first airline job. Everything that is except pay for a type-rating. My debts now top 40 big ones. On credit cards and loans.
Basically I've gone past the swimming in debt stage and am rapidly moving towards the drowning stage.

I am considering declaring bankruptcy.

My question to anybody that may have a clue about these things is :

What impact could this have on my employability as an airline pilot ? I know its not a question on the application form but what about the reference checking side of things. The nightmare scenario that I want to avoid is getting an interview, passing the sim ride etc and then not getting the position if they were to find out that I was a bankruptee.

Is this likely or do they just do criminal checks and normal references from past employers ?

Declaring bankrupt is stressfull enough without thinking it could mess up my chance of finally getting the job I want.

Any ideas ?

[Hufty]

Hi - sorry to hear about your situation. Not sure about the recruitment impact, but to add my view, why don't you approach your main lender and tell them you're in difficulty?

If you declare yourself bankrupt, your lenders will lose everything. It is now going to be in their interests to help you out. I have heard of people in similar situations actually being given MORE credit by their bank to enable them to pay off high interest credit cards and re-finance all their debt with their main lender at a lower rate of interest. Banks can also extend the term of the debt too to lower your payments. If you're paying off £40k over (say) 10 years at around (say) 7%, your monthly outgoings aren't going to be that bad - possibly around GBP450. Even working part-time in McDs you'll be able to cover that. Banks are all out to make money and they can make more money from you by doing this than if they let you walk away from your debt.

An Independent Financial Adviser might be a good place to go - there may be other ways to re-finance or specialist lenders etc.

I don't know what the impact of bankruptcy will be on the rest of your life, but it might be harder for you to get ANY kind of credit in the future.

Good luck...

[SkidSolo]

I wrote some blurb earlier but for some reason hasn't submitted but the post above touched on some of it.

Have you heard of IVA? Insolvency Voluntary Agreement I think it stands for. Basically, a company like KPMG will sit down and work out your outgoings and what you can pay back over 3 years regardless of what is left after that period all debt is cleared (they will get their money back because its underwritten, the Chancellor had to introduce it because of the huge debt mountain being produced). Is anything secured? If so, it can't be included. You can keep your home and car with an IVA.
The other setback is any hike in salary e.g. getting a command will be snatched up but in 3 years where is that likely to happen! Also, your credit rating is 0 but reset after those 3 years. I recommend it. I tried to pay my way for 18 months but eventually they [credit card companies] forced me into it and it certainly hasn't held me back in interviews, sim checks etc, its never brought up and, quite frankly, shouldn't.

Jeremy Vine on the radio spent some time on it last week and there were some horrendous stories. The expert has an advisory site with loads of tips and links, its www.moneysavingsexpert.com

That should get you started.

Regards
SS

[Little Friend]

Mate,
I am afraid that I can not help you with a nugget of wisdom-only to agree with the above post-talking early when you encounter problems usually solves them-don't be a prisoner to your own fears.

Your first job is always a hard one...and so is the second and third. I have been in the industry 10 years and am a jet Capt. but still find it difficult to find the perfect job. Preception changes as you mature with the vocation.

All I can say is that EVERYONE I know who has started down this difficult and costly road has succeded.

Keep going-it could change tommorow-thats flying.

LF

[Gassbag]

My deepest sympathy. I owe £35k and a few grand on plastic.
Be totally honest with your Bank Manager. Like the others say it is in his interest to help you.
And as Skidsolo says sign up to Moneysavingexpert.com there are plenty of ways on the site and so many tips to help you save a bit here and there. As well as a a lot of knowledge in this area in the forum section.
Good Luck
GB

[topgundom]

anotherbrokepilot

Don't kill yourself. That's my advice.

I'm in exactly the same position regards qualifications, plus the good old student loan but I didn't put any debt on credit cards. They are very bad news and clearing those should be your main priority after eating food and drinking water. (tapwater, that is)

I got my money from kind relatives who no longer wish to speak to me and who run screaming when I go to their houses to say hello. I also sold my grandmother but I didn't get very much for her.

I have done stupid rubbish jobs as stop gaps which is not fun at all and have now come to the conclusion that I should have tried to get the best highest paying job I could (that wasn't flying) earlier on, in order to salvage the situation, regardless of how long it takes for aviation to sort its sorry life out again.

In terms of negative equity, I am the poorest person I know by miles (and that includes qualified med students and other friends with flippin' mortgages) , and sometimes I have to stop myself trying to explain to homeless people why I can't SPARE ANY CHANGE for them. it's a ridiculous situation.

I think that perspective is important in our situation. Today I went to a rememberance service for a friend of mine who died suddenly five years ago at the grand old age of seventeen.

Unfortunately we live in a world where, in a rather contradictory way, money is essential but isn't necessary. This is a paradox and so we can't remain philosophical without playing the game of money in this life.

There is no quick fix to this problem except hard work, determination, and time. If you are prepared for positive developments and you are working hard at something then you are in the best possible situation you can be in. Set yourself realistic repayment targets but in the immortal words of gold leader from star wars, STAY ON TARGET.........STAY ON TARGET......STAY ON TARGET.....

:ok:

And hopefully, soon you will get that X-Wing job and be apart of the rebel alliance as and when this disturbance in the force has disappeared for the forseeable future.:cool:

Seriously though, good luck to all at this difficult time. It is getting better, but slowly...

[DeltaT]

If you would like to ask questions of someone who is a bankrupt because of the situation just as you describe then PM me.
Yes I was given more credit with a drop of a hat, and I went back to the bank many times over A YEAR to try and get proper refinancing help. I think they finally got the message when the court notice turned up on their desk.

[Aero Sid]

From another broke pilot.

Try looking at www.moneysavingexpert.com (think the earlier web link you were given was incorrect).
This site is written by Martin Lewis and is really worth a look. I'm also looking into IVA, has anyone done gone down this path????:\

[Cat IIIC]

AnotherBrokePilot,

From Another Broke Pilot,

You've got to try your best to keep your head above water mate. I left instructing last year after 2 1/2 years simply because I couldn't afford to do it. Since then I've done no flying but I can pay off those loans. I dont think bankruptcy is the answer, you'll shoot yourself in the foot for later on in life(Mortgage) and although Im no expert I'm sure I remember something about a criminal record. (If I'm wrong I don't want abusing by smart arses!). It seems that the people getting jobs work in OPS, keeps you in the business and the money is usually ok to survive on. I owe £50K cuz I've lived the jetset lifestyle on the piston wage and I still manage to make it, just!!

Chin up, it won't last forever:ok:

[Sally Cinnamon]

With the new bankruptcy laws coming into force in April, there has never been a better time to declare yourself bankrupt. Anyone going ahead between now and April 2004 will be discharged April 2005. Anybody going ahead after 1st April will be discharged after 12 months maximum and in the most simple cases this can be reduced to as little as 1 month. You will be debt free from the moment you hand in your debtors petition form, and if an income order is made then you will only have to pay a maximum of 60% of your available income after all your essential living costs have been taken out.Obtaining a mortgage as a discharged bankrupt is now a pretty straight forward process, although typically you may have to pay 1 - 2% above the base rate. For somebody owing over £40,000 bankruptcy would probably be the best option, unless you had considerable assets to protect. Criminal law is not concerned with bankruptcy unless fraud is suspected, even then less than 1% of bankrupts a year are prosecuted. These are usually gambling related.

[Ethansa]

where do you obtain your sources from?

How reliable is your source and is the implication of being cleared of bankrupcy, actually mean that your CLEARED? will later on down the line a little note at the side of the page state:

'bankrupt 2004, however cleared 2005; no longer on record as being banrupt'

Thus not actually being cleared of any suspicion of being squeeky clean.

Ethan.

[Sally Cinnamon]

Ethansa, you can pick up a 'debtors petition pack' from any county court which will confirm that the information I have offered is correct. The present fee to present your petition is £390 but this increases to £450 in April. Previously the period was 36 months but as I have stated this has now been reduced considerably to a maximum of 12 months . As an undischarged bankrupt you are still able to obtain banking facilities, many banks offer basic bank accounts to undiscarged bankrupts (The Nationwide offer a good account I believe) and you would be able to open one of these on the same day you present your petition. Once you are discharged you will be listed on your credit file as being a discharged bankrupt. Once a period of 6 years has elapsed you can apply to have this removed from your credit file. So initially it will be more difficult to obtain certain credit facilities but as a way of clearing large debts and being able to make a fresh start in most cases this is the best thing to do. I suspect a visit to any decent financial advisor will confirm this, and the advice would be to go ahead as soon as possible.

[Aero Sid]

Many thanks for your suggestions, Sally do you know of anyone who has followed this route? I suspect with the current job market there could be alot of unemployed pilots needing help. :\

[anotherbrokepilot]

I can confirm what Sally Cinnamon says.

This is all true and the reason why I am looking into the whole subject as deeply as possible. The key is the reduction from 3 years to 1 year (and possibly less if you are lucky ) to become "discharged". I have yet to get professional advice and I obviously will before I take the leap.

Many thanks for the replies, to refer back to my first post; does anybody know what the implications could be recruitment wise ? My head says nothing, my paranoia says something else...

I may have come to the end of the road financially but I don't want to give up my dream !!

[Evo]

So initially it will be more difficult to obtain certain credit facilities but as a way of clearing large debts and being able to make a fresh start in most cases this is the best thing to do. I suspect a visit to any decent financial advisor will confirm this, and the advice would be to go ahead as soon as possible.


Bankruptcy should be the last option - it can screw you up for life. Go to the Motley Fool website - www.fool.co.uk - and the Dealing With Debt board. You'll get some excellent advice :ok:

[Sally Cinnamon]

Aero Sid,

yes I know 2 CPL/IR holders who have been down the bankruptcy route. Their petition's were dealt with under the old legislation and both are still undischarged. One has turned his back on aviation for good, which I think is a shame after all his hard work. The other has found work as a flying instructor and has been able to make a fresh start, debt free. Some good advice that I did pick up, was that car hire purchase can be a good way of helping to repair your credit record. As an undiscarged bankrupt, you are only allowed to own a vehicle with a value of approx £1500. If your vehicle has an auction value of greater than £1500 then you are likely to lose it unless you can prove it is essential for your work. If you are already tied into an hp deal then the finance company is highly unlikely to reposses the vehicle (from an undischarged bankrupt) provided the payments are met. So you end up driving a much more reliable vehicle, the hp payment itself can be counted as part of your essential living costs and therefore offset against any income order, and finally the fact that you are maintaning your payments will look better on your credit file than having no credit at all.

I think you are right Aero Sid when you say other unemployed pilots could need help. With the huge sums of money that people are now prepared to borrow this is probably inevitable. We are now way way past the stage where we are borrowing with a good chance of earning the money back. With the increasing trend of people borrowing massive sums for type ratings this can only continue. How long before we start seeing on pprune threads from people stating they have bought a Boeing type raing and can't get a job, now they are going to buy an Airbus one? Surely this is the logical progression. By that point we would be looking at a training cost in the region of £100k with little chance of earning that back.

"Bankruptcy can screw you up for life", so can debt! Only last week one of the tabloids ran a front page story about some poor bloke who had killed himself due to owing £70,000 of unsecured credit, with £50,000 of this being in interest payments alone. Unfortunately there is a great deal of scaremongery associated with bankruptcy from the layman. Bankruptcy still carries with it a social stigma although perhaps not as much as it once did, due to our nations increasing debt problem. The problem at the moment is that the courts are full of debtors wanting to petition so it can be difficult getting an appointment. Over 4000 people a week in the UK are now petitioning for bankruptcy. The new legislation has made things much easier for people to get back on their feet. I hope you get the fresh start you are looking for 'anotherbrokepilot'. Please let us know how you get on.

[Evo]

Bankruptcy is an option, but shouldn't be the first one you look at. If you do nothing else, read this

http://boards.fool.co.uk/Message.asp?mid=8370973

[Cruise Alt]

BEWARE OF BANKRUPTCY.

I am exceptionally lucky in that I was in your position and survived several times by the skin of my teeth. I considred bankruptcy but was talked out of it by a friend who is a discharged bankrupt. I am very glad now that he did. This is partr of my present contract:

...the Company may terminate your employment immediately.....commit any act of bankruptcy or take advantage of any statute for the time being in force offering relief for insolvent debtors;

I do not know what the effect on my employment would be if I was already in that position but please make sure of the consequences if you do go that way. Perhaps you could ring an airline chief pilot and ask him.

Good luck and hang in there.

[fly-half]

I would seriously consider calling BALPA for a chat with one of their people.

[Aero Sid]

Cruise Alt

Thanks for that intresting part of your contract. I have been in touch with The Citizens Advice Bureau who have been fantastic.
They get in touch with the banks and talk to them for you. Far easier and would advise anyone with debt problems to talk to them.

Sally thanks for your help too.

A slightly more relaxed Aero Sid. :ok:

[anotherbrokepilot]

Thanks everybody, especially those who took the time to PM me.

Anybody else out there have first hand experience of taking the plunge ?

[Tenminutes]

Hi there anotherbrokepilot,
I declared myself bankrupt last year after completing CPL IR etc 1 year previously. The day I sat in front of the judge was the most nervous and also the most relieving of my life. With one stroke of his pen £64000 of debt was vanished. I walked out of the county court a free man as if just completing two years hard labour only to be told that it was not my fault and here is another chance. I, like many pilots and others found myself in a position of terminal decline financially, robbing peter to pay paul with credit cards, constant negotiation with banks and later debt collection agencies and worst of all it effected my personality and relationship with my family. Defered proffessional studies loans that were eagerly handed out to start became a torment. The most frustrating thing about all of my creditors (about 10) was that none were prepared to negotiate beyond original agreed terms. They instead sell bad debts to debt recovery units who are nasty people who send bailiffs around to beat down the door and climb through open windows. Crunch for me came three months prior to bankruptcy when I realised that my situation was unrecoverable, rather like what I imagine must run through the minds of guys in a deep stall. You can bankrupt yourself from all debts except those incurred by a court fine or a government loan. This includes situations where a bank takes you to court and you are ordered to pay fines etc. To prevent this from happening and to completely free myself I took the plunge. £250 was all it cost (which I had to borrow) as the court waved the discretionary £90 costs due to my lack of funds. The appointment took one week to come through. Two hours in the court house talking to the judge and the official reciever on the phone who deals with your case there after. They send out a huge questionaire requiring about a day to complete including everything financial. Then a mutual day, time and telephone number is agreed for the official reciever to ring you to discuss your case. This was the last time I spoke with him, we never met. From day one, leaving the court house, any creditor who was informed of my bankruptcy, would break the law in contacting me, what a relief especially after a year of horrible telephone calls and letters. I was working for an airline at the time, the same large well known airline that currently employ me on the ground. There is no need for them to know and infact it is none of their business what my financial status is. If they asked I would tell them. It does not effect my airside pass or my disclosure (why would it) and the only way in the future that it may effect me would be in signing a bond or with Easyjet where the help you arrange a loan, as a bankrupt you must declare your bankruptcy to anyone lending you more than £250. This of course is then up to them if they risk it. My bankruptcy is very much one of misfortune as I borrowed the money in good faith with every intention of repayment, indeed had the banks agreed easier terms they would still have been paid, any airline would have to either take you on a bond or leave you. I have a post office account now with no overdraft, deal only in cash and have nothing of any value (which helps prior to bankruptcy) it also helps to be married as the other half is not effected in any way. There are jobs that I can't do such as return to my original profession as a financial advisor or become an estate agent, oh well, thats not why I spent the money in the first place. I have no regrets, enjoy answering the telephone and love opening the post, I don't earn enough to contribute to my estate, and I can concentrate 100% on my future airline career. I will never borrow again out of choice (even though tescos, one of my creditors sent me a credit card application recently, how daft is that), the other options to bankruptcy are costly and still involve a noose. My advice is that no problem is worth loosing your health over. Good luck.:ok:

[anotherbrokepilot]

Did anybody see "Tonight with Trevor McDonald" last night ?
They did a half hour special on bankruptcy, following somebody through the process of going bankrupt.

I was very interested as to what slant the programme would take, but having watched it I was amazed at how positive everybody was about it. I think with the new rules now in force I'll be hard pushed to get an appointment !!
Seriously though, I found the programme had quite a calming effect on me, and I feel even closer to taking the plunge.

Any other pilots out there in the same situation ?

[Aero Sid]

Tenminutes,

Thanks for a very good thread about your dealings with Bankruptcy. I am now in the position you were in, most of my debts have now been sold to Recovery Agencies and I now dread the postman or a withheld number on my phone!!!
This week I am looking into following in your footsteps and it's nice to know they could be light at the end of a very dark tunnel.
Do you know the implications in the future for a mortage??

If you have anymore advice please don't fail to PM me.

Thanks again.


:ok:

Anyone else in the same position?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

What a very interesting thread. I can see this becoming a Wannabe issue - which it hasn't been I don't think until now.

Is it a viable strategy for someone say 18yrs old to secure all their £70,000 of training via credit and then go bankrupt? They quite possibly would not need a mortgage or anything for 10 years and a £1,500 car need not be a massive burden.

Its highly unlikely to be 'a good thing to do' but nevertheless - is it a viable strategy?

I know for a fact that my girlfriends 19yr old student brother has been mail shoted at least a dozen credit cards, has a personal loan for a car, has a student loan and has been offered a 'friends mortgage' to "get on the property ladder early". Seems credit really is pathetically eager to find users...

Cheers

WWW

=============

Hmmmmmm. I have just followed some of the links to gen up on this.

It does seem a viable strategy - particularly for the younger Wannabe unlikely to own much in the way of property.

It becomes even more painless if you are going to complete and FI rating and spend a period as a Flying Instructor. A job that often entails driving a knackered old car and living hand to mouth in a caravan somewhere - exactly what bankruptcy can drive you to anyway.

So, our intrepid 18yr old moves out of home into a nasty little student rent; Dad covers the rent just to have his home free from a teenage :)

So, Kevin (for it was he) happily says Yes, he would like to take advantage of your credit card - to all 12 of the mailshots that come through his door about a week after he moves in. Kevin, registers as a partime student at the local poly and fills out a student loan application. He also goes to the High Street and takes out an unsecured loan 'for a car'.

I reckon Kevin could get 12 credit cards with £3,000 limits (they seem to start at that these days). So that £36,000. The student loan would be £4,000 and I reckon the High Street banks would drop you £10,000 for a car. Kevin has now got £50,000 of credit and he hasn't really tried yet....

He might be even cleverer and get a full time job - any job there's plenty about and lets say it pays him £15,000 a year. For a couple of months he lives of his cards and promtly pays them off - maybe whilst he's starting the ATPL's via distance learning. Bingo he asks and gets his credit limit raised to £5,000.

Anyway, he gets this money and its enough to do the whole CPL/IR ATPL exams and a FI rating. He has barely spent a penny of his or his parents money.

He now spends about £400 declaring himself bankrupt. He can tell the judge he's just a stupid teenager who thought he'd get a job with BA and didn't realise it was so hard. With the stroke of a pen the young mans debts are removed. The Judge likely thinking that if these companies will lend such huge sums to teenagers they deserve to get burnt.

Kevin now gets a job as a Flying Instructor. His wages for the next 3 years barely covers his living expenses - leaving him free to pay nothing back to his creditors.

After one year the bankruptcy is spent, after three you are scot free. Kevin would only be 21 or 22. He can apply for a mortgage and get one and have a credit card and start repairing his credit history.

By the time he's got his airline job and needs to buy houses and flash cars he is free to do so. Meanwhile he is not having to pay off those loans and his parents.

They can't take your rented house off you, your cooker, telly, armchair or <£1,500 car or clothes. Well - as an 18/19/20yr old I didn't have more than that to my name and the same when I was a PPL flying instructor.

I don't see the drawbacks. A free CPL IR FrznATPL and FI rating, three years of living as a flying instructor, then a period of repairing your credit profile.

Interesting.


Cheers

WWW

[Tenminutes]

Hi Aeor Sid and all,

Credit companies use what ever means possible to acquire potential customers details with which to prospect them for business. A classic example of this presented itself about one month after my declaration of bankruptcy. I recieved more interest from credit companies than ever before, including offers from mortgage lenders. All bankrupts have their details printed in a local press and a London newspaper. This being the medium of information retrieval of choice for greedy and arguably stupit finance companies. Or maybe not, after all you are now back in the market, they even offered to buy my bankruptcy which basically involves you reversing the order and borrowing the full amount from one lender, why you would do this is beyond me. The best thig you can do with all of these financial solutions is throw them in the bin and contact your official reciever who has now become your official free rock solid financial advisor who is completely impartial and really is there to help those who wish to be helped.
I am so glad that this thread is attracting interest because it shows me that not every one has a bottomless pit for training as the TRTO schools and certain airlines seem to think.
I am a born again and fully reformed creditaholic and would go to meetings if I thought it would help to inform others of the total releif that I have now. I am happy to answer any other question in my experience.
Good luck:ok:

[anotherbrokepilot]

Fantastic thread guys !

Keep'em coming !!

ps sixmilehighclub check your PM

[Chaffers]

It makes sense if you understand how banks work. They are there to increase the amount of money in the system, hence they will lend out anything up to ten times the amount of capital they have as assets.

That means that a bank with £1000000 worth of assets can lend out £10m, though always spreading the risk by lending lots of smaller amounts.

If you do your sums its obvious that the bank only has to reclaim 10% plus administration fees to break even on each debt. So if you owe £40000 I assume you must have paid back well over £4000 to have ramped up to that much debt in the first place.

A combination of very low interest rates and massive competition in the market place (everyone is getting in on the act, supermarkets, storecards etc) has led to the scramble from credit companies to offer credit as widely as possible. However with the new bankruptcy laws it does make the credit companies rather vulnerable to the (somewhat) unscrupulous. Its not as though the poor babs make any profits....

It's worth noting that student loans from after (worth checking) 1998? are not exempt from bankruptcy due to an oversight in the bill. This means that many students can leave university, declare themselves bankrupt, and rid themselves of anything up to £20k worth of debt. They will also be more attractive to future lenders due to a clean slate than those who choose to remain encumbered.

With the rediculous tuition fees and massive overdrafts this would appear to be a very sensible option given that most degrees are now barely worth the paper they are printed on. Indeed an MSc nowadays is probably worth a degree of old. If a student thinks that paying off £20k over three years is likely given their realm of employment then fair enough, though surely a further £10k (depending on the course, many MBAs require £15k+ tuition fees rather than the standard £3k for an MSc, though often along with plenty of time in industry) spent on a deferred post graduate loan to cover tuition costs and living expenses for a year long MSc would be a more viable option.

This would increase potential earnings with the catchall option of bankruptcy should the poor dear be unable to keep up with repayments. With a 50% target for school leavers entering University I would think this to be one of the few ways to stand out from the crowd.

After a single year in gainful employment said student could then be in a high earning job with plenty of spare cash to spend on flying.

Just another option.

[Tenminutes]

Hi Chaffers, I'm not really sure where you are coming from. This is a thread for Pilots who for what ever reason have fallen into a tough financial situation, one which is serious enough to claim innocent lives and ruin others. You seem to be talking about university situations which are quite different in there content, duration and cost, we on the other hand are pilots who trained with the sole purpose of being pilots. I have an honors degree which I worked very hard to get, this I did for my own personal challenge, not to obtain a particular job. As per my previous thread, indeed government loans are exempt from bankruptcy, but then no government student loan will ever match the quantity of debt involved with pilot training or justify contemplating bankruptcy in the first place. You didn't make your position clear as to qualification or bankruptcy but I think you need to experience that which you belittle before you offer advise on the subject. I have zero sympathy for lenders nor do I care how they operate any more, I realise that my bankruptcy is somthing that I arrived at due to my blind desire to complete my training without a proper consideration to employment but there is no use crying over spilt milk, the only thing to do is take the now and move forward, a situation that I would assume most people reading this thread are at. If bankruptcy is the only way to do this, then great after all we are not talking about paying off grandma.:confused:

[anotherbrokepilot]

Anymore for anymore ?

(AKA back-to-the-top....)

[bazzaman96]

To some of the people who have suggested it's a 'viable strategy' to intentionally take out huge loans and then declare bankruptcy (such as the 18 year old) - don't. The courts will find it as fraud. The source that suggests otherwise is wrong.

[Chaffers]

Tenminutes,

Nothing I said was intended to be belittling or derogatory. Quite the opposite. My point, following on from WWW's regarding the possibility of a young student learning to fly mainly on unsecured credit card loans, was simply to show how the system works and what options are available. Many wannabes will do a degree and then put the proceeds of their higher earning jobs towards flying training.

I too, as implied in my post, have zero sympathy towards lenders and the utmost sympathy with anyone in dire financial straits, I have been there myself.

There have been many recent cases (as I recall 600 in a single year from an article I read) where university leavers have declared themselves bankrupt upon graduating due to the recent student loands not being exempt. Using loans towards the procurement of luxuries is exempt from bankruptcy but to the best of my knowledge training is not.

Worth checking out and maybe not directly applicable to all those on this thread, though it was given for information only and in good faith.

I personaly see nothing belittling or derogatory about someone entering bankruptcy. I only wish the best to any who tread that path.

[niknak]

Bankruptcy should be your very very last option, it is not the panacea that some may have given you the impression that it is.

Don't try and get a bigger loan or overdraft facility to cover the outstanding debt, and for God's sake do not put your affairs in the hands of a debt management company - all you'll get is 7 years of penuary and they will make a huge amount of cash from you.
I am not being patronising, I've seen this situaton at very close quarters before, clearly you can't manage your financial affairs, you need advice from people who have your interests at heart no the profit margin involved.

Go bankrupt and you will lose everything - house, credit rating and normal banking facilities. You will be assigned to a court appointed bankruptcy officer/iquidator, who will rule your financial life with a rod of iron. All your earnings will be assigned to them, they will then decide how much you will need to live on, the rest goes to the people you owe money to. This will continue until either your creditors give up, or you repay them in full - neither is a quick or realistic fix.

Take the advice given, go to your local CAB, look inthe Yellow Pages under debt, but do something now , because you haven't got much time.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

But what if you are, say 19, don't need normal banking facilities, won't own a house for years anyway and have no possessions worth taking?

It seems a lot of judges will take the view that if credit companies are foolish enough to lend to teenagers with unrealistic notions then its their own fault they got their fingers burnt...

What is the worse financial position - 21 Frzn ATPL and owing £50,000 to the banks or 21 Frzn ATPL, ex-bankrupt and owing nothing to the banks?

I'm a long way from advocating the strategy but it does seem from my fairly limited reading up on this that the latter option is logically better.

But lets here all views and arguments on this important Wannabe issue.

Cheers


WWW

[Sally Cinnamon]

niknak, typical pprune poppycock. "All your earnings will be assigned to them" what a load of crap. A maximum of 50 to 60% of any available surplus (after all your living costs have been taken out) can be used as an income order. After this order has been made you are highly unlikely to hear from the receiver ever again unless there is a change in your earnings which you need to inform him about.

Once you declare yourself bankrupt the receiver deals with all of your creditors directly, they are no longer allowed to contact you. So your statement that "this will continue until you repay them in full" is also crap. The income order will continue for a maximum of three years after which point nobody will have any further interest in your financial affairs.

Undischarged bankrupts CAN get basic bank accounts very easily, the Nationwide offer an account to undischarged bankrupts that you could open on the same day you declare yourself bankrupt. This will allow for direct debits, and come with a cash card but no overdraft will be permitted.

[sixmilehighclub]

Niknak, you make it sound like bankruptcy is a lifelong illness!!

Your credit rating is NOT permanently damaged, you DON'T lose 'everything' and as Sally says, you CAN have perfectly normal banking facilities with the choice of at least three UK banks. Just don't expect a huge overdraft facility.

You CAN still borrow money, subject to credit checks, but over £500 anyway and the lender must be made aware of your bankruptcy. Besides, if you are wiping out thousands of pounds worth of debt, thus taking the stress with it, would you be worried if you cant get credit for a few years? Credit records typically last only 6 years. There are so many companies now who credit discharged bankrupts at slightly higher rates if they were needed later anyway.

Receivers are human, they understand, so therefore excercise a level of flexibility and compassion. Your salary does NOT go to your creditors until they give up. This is typically for a year. If you break the rules, dont declare a windfall or have been bankrupt before then they can extend this period, but even then they are reasonable and allow enough basic outgoings for a decent standard of living, plus at least around half of any surplus.

I heard recently of a lady wanting to declare herself bankrupt over £2k worth of debt. Not wise to pull the plug for that amount, but I have seen the CAB suggest going bankrupt for a significant debt.

It is independent to each person as to whether is the most suitable option, and yes, it should be the final resort but it certainly is not the end of the world. Just a fresh start.

[robione]

Where do i sign ?,very interesting thread some well informed comments,and makes a good read some eye opening stuff,keep it comin i love this one:ok:

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

What worries me about going bankrupt is the issue of "Reckless Bankruptcy." I know very little about it and it hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet. As far as I know, if an individual borrows money with no intention of paying it back, the creditors can chase the debt for ten years. I'm not sure if this "Reckless" thing only applies to certain purchases; maybe it only refers to those funding a champagne lifestyle and funding flight training might not be considered reckless. If you declare yourself bankrupt straight after training though you've not shown much willingness to pay the the money back. Could you imagine being pursued for £60,000 plus interest and debt chasing bills for the next ten years?

If you could convince a court that you've attempted to pay the money back and they give you the one year discharge, great! I'm not saying bankruptcy is a certain no no. I'd just like the "Reckless Bankruptcy" thing explained before I max out my plastic on A320 time building.

[sixmilehighclub]

If you have been on an income where you can resonably balance your spending and earning, then something happens, like you lose your job and cant keep up repayments, then its clear you havent done it on purpose.

(eg: £2k coming in, verses outgoings of £1k rent, £150 bills, £300 food & fuel, and say £200 credit card/ loan repayments).

You go max out your card with no evident means of repaying it when you used the credit, you may find yourself in a major crosswind, with no avionics and your arms strapped into your harness.

So if you know you cant repay the debts you take on, dont take them on.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

If you were 19 and got your Frzn ATPL via reckless bankruptcy then went onto to be a flying instructor, TP freight hauler etc for a number of years would it be so bad? You really don't need much credit until you want to buy a house and that isn't going to be for quite a well from the age of 19.

Cheers

WWW

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

A 19 year (with an old head on young shoulders) would probably get away with it. The judge would most likely consider the bankruptcy to be caused by greedy creditors trying to take advantage of a naive youngster and getting burnt in the process.

I'm a 25 year old PPL with my ATPL theory in the bag. I've no real assets, just a pile of hard earned cash saved for the rest of my training. The training will the done in the States and will be followed by a couple of years of general aviation work out there. Even before I read this post, it had occured to me that I have £50,000-£100,000 of credit available through my plastic pals. It does seem very tempting to give my savings to my parents for safe keeping, pay for everything on cards and declare myself bankrupt. If I was on the other side of the Atlantic in a low paid FI job with sub £5000 debts on each card and a £50,000 total debt it would make me a very hard debtor to chase. Three years later I could have a good flying job and get my savings returned.

I've not yet read anything in this thread to convince me that I could get away with a scam like this. There does seem to be a loophole but it would take a brave person to try to take advantage of it.

[flystudent]

What a magic thread :O This should be the first thread that everyone reads before signing any dotted line !!

As mentioned already I think there are many people out there who have this problem and there will be more to come.

My views on it are as follows.
Having been a creditor in a case where I leant money to someone to further their career I was most annoyed when they filed bankruptcy. I had taken the said individual to court and legal costs had mounted. I had won the case and then in the end after I was awarded judgement, costs and interest they filed bankruptcy. Whoosh the lot lost. They walked into the court in London filled in the forms had a hearing made up some story (they don't check it) and then had all their debts wiped out.

They have a cup of coffee with the official receivers (O.R.) and all they want to do is file it away somewhere they are not interested in the creditors getting their money. I was not the only creditor and the total debts were more than 90,000GBP still the OR didn't give a stuff.
In my situation I had information available to me that the said individual had had funds and moved them to "other locations" but if you tell the OR this they will do nothing other than tell you to get an ISP. As a creditor you have to pay for a ISP (I think that's what it was, an Insolvency practitioner and they cost the earth !! they make legal fees look small) and if they do get close to finding a hidden loot odds are they will have either spent it or moved it if its found so its an expensive exercise with possible no fruit at the end.

If you get an ISP set on you then oh man the headaches will not go away, they can grill you till you are blue in the face and generally it's their job to be a thorn in your side, however these are normally only hired if there is serious doubt about how genuine the bankruptcy is.

Now that the discharge term is 1 year and not 3 years from a creditors point of view I think it is totally disgusting (labour rant rant) several friends of mine who have setup businesses have all been screwed by people filing bankruptcy. I have no problem when it's against a multi-million pound corp. but when its Mr X who gets off his/her arse to setup a firm its just wrong imho (in my humble opinion)

I used to think it was morally incorrect to file for bankruptcy but having been on the receiving end I would recommend it to anyone who as at their wits end. Know what will happen before you do though. All your accounts will be frozen etc so I think it would have to be well planned. Your last X years of bank transactions can be inspected (or so the rules say) but getting a bank to release statements is next to impossible (unless you are the bank !!) they are supposed to be given to the OR on your initial coffee morning but if you have lost them..oh well !! less work for the OR (they love that) bitter grunt snarl.....

One other thing is this, if you get a job in that year you are supposed to advise your OR so a portion can be allocated to your creditors.If you forget they dont enquire !! I think with the one year rule it will probably tie in with peoples year of travelling now !

I know one thing it may affect and that is if you want to emigrate on the future, that is a definite question on the forms.

All the best and good luck everyone.
Banks make too much money anyway !

cover arse section:
I must stress the above is all my own opinions and reflect the levels of service I and friends have received as creditors. It may not however be typical of normal service/bankrupcy (though I personally imagine it is)

Fair_Weather_Flyer

Re reckless insolvency you may find more on it here



http://www.insolvency.gov.uk http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/legislation/enterpriseact/eactindiv.htm

[sixmilehighclub]

WARNING: Rant ahead...

Flystudent -

One other thing is this, if you get a job in that year you are supposed to advise your OR so a portion can be allocated to your creditors.If you forget they dont enquire !!

Why not sign a confession to fraud with your shiny new job contract?

You are committing a criminal offence if you do not disclose change of income or any assets you aquire during your bankruptcy. You sign a document to this effect and it will land you in a CRIMINAL court for breaking your conditions, if you keep it quiet. They are able to access your account for info at any time.

However after reading your cover arse section I let you off, just wanted to set it straight! :ok:


Fair Weather Flyer -

to give my savings to my parents for safe keeping, pay for everything on cards and declare myself bankrupt. If I was on the other side of the Atlantic in a low paid FI job with sub £5000 debts on each card and a £50,000 total debt it would make me a very hard debtor to chase. Three years later I could have a good flying job and get my savings returned.

How selfish!!!!!!!! :*

Bankruptcy is not a free loan. Its a solution for those who have found themselves in financial difiiculty, such as from losing jobs, becoming too illl to work and not being able to pay off the debts they have been keeping up with in the past.

If you have the money saved for your training, then use it.

You CANNOT hand it over to your parents for 'safe keeping'. Its immoral! It is also a question listed on your initial paperwork and to miss something off or bend the truth is committing an offence. You are technically obtaining funds by deception. You sign an affidavit and take an oath which means when they find out you have squirrelled away a few grand and retrieved it few years later, you are in deep. They are likely to be more watchful now as the law has changed.

The more people who do as you are thinking and use bankruptcy as free fliying training, the more the law will toughen up and people that really need it will suffer.


Rant over.

Six

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

But will they?

It seems to me that the way the system is being changed the aim is to let more creditors get their fingers burnt more often. Thus compelling them to tighten up and refine their lending criteria without choking off the useful ready-credit facilities used sensibly by millions in this country.

I can't see the courts allocating scarce resources to bankruptcy investigation of trivial ( <£1,000,000 ) sums...

Cheers

WWW

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

The stated aim of the new legislation is to encourage an enterprising spirit amongst the population of our sacred isle. By reducing the stigma and long term legal implications of going bump we are suppposed to be more willing to take risks, like our American cousins. I say, "be careful what you wish for....."

I think that sixmilehighclub is confusing morality with what is possible whilst operating on the fringes of the law. In the three years that I have been involved in business management, I have come across outrageous and cheeky scams that have been legal, just. The new bankruptcy laws are mana from heaven for anyone who is willing to tread the tightrope between outrageous and illegal.

Self funded ATPL training has always been a big risk; the kind of risk that our government would like to see us take more often. Now, if it things don't pan out, we can declare bankruptcy and one year later, it's more or less business as usual. Does that encourage me to go through with the rest of the training? Damned right it does! After spending my own money, I can start spending on the cards and stay in the aviation game, building hours in jobs that don't have to pay the bills. If I get a good job in the long run, then I can pay off my bills from my salary. On the other hand, if I reach credit meltdown before that point, I can declare myself bankrupt. I'd still be able to chase that dream job, albeit with a ball and chain tied round my feet for a year. There is no way I'm going to get suckered into one of those basket loans that spreads the debt misery over forty years. Going bust would be a better bet!

Contrary to the impression I give, I've always been responsible with credit; that is why I can raise an insane amount of cash on unsecured cards. I didn't make the new laws, but if they favour me, not greedy creditors, why shouldn't I take advantage?

[sixmilehighclub]

Fair Weather Flyer-

I've always been responsible with credit; that is why I can raise an insane amount of cash on unsecured cards.

Yep, I once had a ceiling of £80k possible credit, thats just on the cards I had, and there was offers of many more. But it didn't make me responsible, I thought I was being clever with my credit.

You say what you are planning is acting on the fringe of the law and not being immoral.
There are those who struggle and stress over being forced into bankruptcy against their wishes. Then theres those who do it to purposely get freebies and keep their savings to buy nice things one day. How is that not immoral?? Its outside the law too.

Picture this;

You fund your training on your cards, then go bankrupt. You live under big brothers eyes for a year. Your credit rating suffers for a further 6 years. But you have managed to land a commercial flying job, and get back your nice tidy sum you managed to hide from the law. So you get your house, car, manage to get more credit cards, then the airline you are working for goes under and no-one else is recruiting or doeasnt want to employ you. You find yourself having to go bankrupt as you are struggling to pay off your mortgage and new debts.

Bankruptcy is tougher if you have to do it second time round, the rules change, and its not as easy.

The government may be looking to encourage an enterprising spirit, but in my opinion I dont think they meant figuring out a way to rip off the system.

Anyways, you get found out and you may find yourself looking at a criminal record, which may not look too good when you try to get your airside pass.

If youre that daring, call an official receiver at your local insolvency office and ask them what the possible outcome of your idea may be.

Nothing personal.

Six

[Bealzebub]

Bankruptcy is usually the very last resort for people who often, through no fault of their own, find themselves in an otherwise desparate position. Borrowing money has consequences and should be considered seriously before it is undertaken.

For the few that advocate this as route to obtaining a commercial pilots licence that is otherwise unaffordable, bear the following in mind.
Many airlines will require their pilots to hold a company credit card or cash floats as part of the job. If bankruptcy rules you out of this then there are plenty of candidates out there without this impediment.
Pilots are employed on the companies perceived attitudes of responsibility not recklessness. Competition for the jobs is fierce, and you are well advised to have very few blots on your record, whatever that record may be.

[mightyduck]

Only 40K that's nothing man!

[thereceiver2004]

does anybody in the know actually KNOW for sure whether being a discharged or undischarged bankrupt would inhibit getting a commercial flying job with an airline in this country, i have head in the US you cannot be a commander if you have filed for bankruptcy... I am now at my witts end with idiots from banks not listening to me....

[PILOTOWL]

TheReciever2004,
Do not PANIC!

YOU ARE NOT ALONE!

If you asked most student pilots, most 60% would feel exactly like yourself at the moment. The rest are lying!!

There are many answers to your question:

The Enterprise Act has cleared up a few restrictions on what professions can continue to work whilst still a Bankrupt.

I have had a look at the Act, there is no mention of Pilot, or anything Aviation related.

Bankruptcy - does not stop anyone obtaining an air side pass in the UK, it only checks Criminal not Civil proceedings.

Contract of Employment - this is the tricky one. The Enterprise Act has tried to clear this up a bit. If you handle money, can be led to temptation ie. black mailed etc. You cannot continue in your profession. Even MP's can now continue in office (Funny that - Mr Mandelson).
I have had a look at my CofE and it does state that if you are Bankrupt- it becomes a breach of contract.
However, you must remember that many CofE are blanket wide ie. they cover everybody from the cleaner to the managing director. Therefore, it really is in the hand of the employer. However, there is a strong case (for pilots) not to be sanctioned. You don't handle money or deal with contracts etc.
On this thread, someone stated problems with regard to Company Credit Cards- you will not be credit checked they're not yours but the company's. You are a signee, nothing else. So we can forget that (See a good point - at last).

It really is upto the companies you are applying for. Are you a member of BALPA? Join it's free don't get much but they great source of information. I'd ask them, they generally know which airlines take a dim view. Most I would say are more interested in your flying ability. I wouldn't tell them, as such, but if they ask I would tell them. You'll be surprised most will be ok. If you've tried your best that's what matters. Also, they've spent a small fortune so it's unlikely you'll be shown the door.

The only way, Companies find out is because of the tax code you will be given . You don't pay tax in that financial year. No you won't be given a lump sum it goes straight to the OR. The best time is after New Year, by the time the tax man has caught up the financial year is finished and you go back to a normal tax code. It may only last for the month of March- think of some lame excuse (mix up etc) for the Lady in accounts, they probably won't ask any way.
If you are considering the Bankruptcy route I would strongly advice you to contact the following organisations:

www.nationaldebtline.co.uk
tel 08088084000. (it won't show on your bill)

www.insolvency.gov.co.uk (forms and advice literature are here)

I was, in a past life, a Insolvency Practitioner for GT , up North. I came across many cases that could of been avoided just by the client using his/her own common sense and facing upto the problem.

This is what I would do in your position: DO THIS TODAY NOT TOMORROW TODAY!!

1 Write to every creditor you have (photocopy letter, recorded delivery -proof of posting). Work out a budget - TELL THEM- this what you can afford - don't be over optimistic but don't take the piss either. Send them the budget sheet. Share the surplus equally amongst the creditors by the number of them NOT by the amount you owe them. DO NOT INFORM THE CREDITORS HOW MUCH YOU OWE EACH ONE. Just tell them you have say, 5 creditors, name them only.If they ask, say that you are not at liberty to tell them - remember you are not bankrupt, yet.
Tell them you will try to get a second job in the near future.

2 Wait for the replies.Try to get a second job. If it's an extra £30 a week it's better than nothing.

3 If the majority agree to your budget and say a few don't,write to them and inform them that the other creditors have agreed. TELL THEM you may have to instigate self declared bankrupcy - in the very near future if they do not agree. This I'm sure (9/10) will
get them to agree. They have too by law-ish (Banking Code) - they don't have a choice.

4 If they all agree, bless your lucky stars! Stick to the budget. Tell your folks/friends that money's a bit tight and you can't afford big presents/ going out etc. Good friends will buy you a few drinks I'm sure. Most are probably very proud of what you've achieved and don't mind helping out. Keep your pecker up !!( inc if your a Girlie!!).
If you find that you are struggling after coming to an arrangement, then it may be best in the long term to declare yourself Bankrupt and give yourself a clean break. Give yourself 6 months though.

5 If you've started recieving CCJ's respond to them DO NOT ignore them, fill out the forms they send. TELL THEM this is what you can reasonably afford as before.
If the Banks have passed on the debt to a "recovery agency" please read the following very carefully>

These organisations are the scum of the earth. They are not independent of the banks( no matter what they say)- they are owned by them- directly and indirectly. The "customer service agents" are the Children of Satan, they don't care one bit about your "Story". They only care about themselves. This is why. THEY ARE PAID VERY, VERY LOW BASIC PAY. THEY GET THE MAJORITY OF THEIR PAY FROM YOU!
They work on commission. If they can get you to pay it off in one lump sum - they a rolling in it - upto 20% of the debt is commission. That's why they will phone at 2am, 6am, 8am, 10am.
You cannot complain. They are not governed by the the Banking Ombudsman or the Finance regulator (What ever they call themselves these days).
DO NOT TRY TO NEGOTIATE WITH THEM.
Follow their wishes, agree to their ridiculous terms, keep a log of all their phone calls (Date/Time/What they said/Tone of voice). They do not like sending out letters - it's a record of their harrassment, I guarentee that you will be first to hear that your debt has been sold by a phone call.

Keep this going for at least untill Christmas Week, 23rd all ways a good day. When they phone tell them that you are going to instigate Self-Declared Bankruptcy in the New Year and wish the bastards a Happy Christmas and Happy New Year. This is the only way to deal with these people. They will not leave you alone, even after you've agreed terms. I promise.

Enjoy Christmas - try to pay some token amounts to your creditors ( evidence that your trying to pay).

In the New Year (first week), down-load forms from the insolvency service. Apply to your local court, for an apointment.
Before you get there:
Put all your Bank statements in order (inc credit card statements etc). It use to piss me off having to spend a day putting other peoples financial statements in order. If you look organized they will be easy on you. If it's a mess- you can be prosecuted for not keeping organized records (doesn't matter if your a business or not)
In your statement on the form, write down exactly what happened and why you think it happened. That you've tried your best, ie. second job. It's affecting your health- phone calls from Children of Satan at 2am etc.

DO NOT TRY TO HIDE ANY LARGE PURCHASES OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS.
They can check, by looking thru statements, land registry, DVLA, Credit Reference agancies.
Do not lie about Bank accounts. Your Bankrupcy will published in the Gazette (official paper of the courts). Banks check this and have to tell the Official Reciever if you are one of theirs. You are also published in the local pressie. liverpool echo etc

At the Court, dress appropriately. Put a shirt and tie on.
The meeting will be with a Judge, usually in his/her office - no public gallery- just you.

Do not sit down until asked to. Show them some courtesy/ respect. Answer the questions when asked. Do not speak until spoken too (They are reading your file). They will sign the papers. Do not smile with the relief of a new beginning/ dawn (until your in the pub!!).
You will have to speak to the OR, they will ask for statements etc, hand them over.Including all correspondance with your creditors You have evidence that you have tried your best, letters (proof of posting) - creditors will say that you ignored their correspondance to get you in to trouble), Direct Debits to Creditors, CCJ's etc.

The idea behind this is to get at least 3 months of proof that you've tried your best, the OR will only ask for three months of statements - in most cases. They will be ok with you, if your debt is less than £60,000 - it's more of an administration exercise.

Enjoy the rest of your life.
DO NOT GET IN THIS MESS AGAIN.
Avoid all forms of credit. Only allow yourself a small Overdraft and Mortgage in the future.
Get yourself on that Postal thing so you don't get adverts tempting money thru the post.
It was stated, in this tread, that second time round they will crucify you - which is correct - but if you look after your finances even if you are made unemployed, you will not face Bankruptcy. Get health/ unemployment cover for your mortgage as a safe guard. BALPA does this !!


Iam very, very sorry that this is a very long reply. But it's a very complicated topic.
I know of 3 pilots in my Company that have been Bankrupt. It hasn't affected them, career wise what's so ever.
We all go through up's and down in life and this is no different.
Less than 50 years ago, divorce was frowned upon and look at it now!! So don't be embarassed or ashamed. If you've tried your best - the OR can see this. They are not stupid.
However, a word of warning for those who may be tempted to go down this route for financial gain. It costs £12,000 (min) Bankrupt an individual, So if you take the rise, you could end up paying this plus your debts and could even end up in Jail for Fraud.

I've tried to be comprehensive as possible but If anyone would like some advice, PM me or visit debtline.
What ever you do thereciever2004, don't endanger your health by getting depressed or stressed.There's plenty of worth while careers as fall back. IMHO you'll be ok.

WWW - Any chance of having the debtline number put on a sticky?

[Dave Martin]

While I can sympathise with the situations here, something strikes me as a little sick:

I have burnt my ass working £3.50 an hour jobs, using my entire inheritance to pay of my student loan. This is a loan that amounts to nothing in practice other than a piece of paper.

Somehow, someone who has got to experience what could be construed as an expensive hobby, with a well paying and attractive (and over subscribed) job at the end of it, getting to write of those tens of thousands of pounds of debt....and then potentially have employment in that profession at the end of it....

All strikes me as a little unfair that bankruptcy is being considered as a tidy way out of having to pay back a debt, one which in the course of employment on a pilots salary is quite repayable. Especially when so many in this community bitch and moan about immigrants and dole bludgers.

If a pilots career was written off? Yes. Bankruptcy might be a fair cop. But if you are looking to declare bankrupt, then worrying about how it might affect future airline career possibilities?!?!

[PILOTOWL]

Dave,
I can see where your coming from.
Unfortunately, I don't think tehreceiver2004 is taking this as an easy way out.
From my post, you will read, that you have to "substanciate" that you have tried your best to agree some type of arrangement with a creditor/creditors before declaring Bankruptcy.If you get credit without any intention of paying it back that's a Criminal Act , thus say goodbye to your pilot career. However, it can so easily go wrong. Imagine graduating at the time of 9/11 ?How can you foresee that? I bet there was a few pilot bankruptcies after that -without a doubt. The problem with flying is it's very expensive and nobody want's to pay for it , especially airlines. You have to borrow a lot of money ( a mortgage in some places in the UK) and you have to earn good money to pay it back. Unfortunately, the good pay doesn't arrive that quickly - it takes agood few years - even at BA (cost of type rating taken out of salary).
The Bankruptcy may not even be given - the OR could inform the judge at a later date that the potential bankruptcy is capable of paying the debt back.

I personally had no money what so ever from any inheritance. In fact, I have been working 2 jobs for the last 4years, putting in on average 84 hours per week (2x12hour shifts on Sat & Sun). So I can complete my training.

However, this thread is not about "how much you had to work in crap jobs to become apilot" but how to solve a financial problem. Just like other problems, eg, Gambling, Alcoholism and drug abuse. I cannot personnaly see how people get in these messes but people do.
However, there are ways for people to solve these. Bankruptcy is one of them.

Getting into debt is exceptionally easy. It can effect the well off (Queen Mum was reportedly £3million in debt when she left us!).

Getting addicted drugs/alcoholism is one I don't understand either but the NHS spends Billions in helping these people (I pay tax).Would you deny methodone (sp?) for a drug addict?

Sometimes people just need a little help.
Debt can be just as destructive as all the above problems but in this society - we ridicule/penalis these people. People kill themselves over debt. I had a few clients that never turned upto meetings. We live a society, every 30 seconds on TV and Radio, there advert flogging loans, debt busting loans, financial products. Even if you switch the TV off they're coming thru the letter box. I bet when you logged on - you where bombarded with adverts from some cheap loan company!!

You also stated that on a pilots salary it is quite repayable. That depends where you started from and what job you get.
I looked on www.ppjn.com before my post. At regionals starting salary is around about 18000 to 24000. If you are lucky to get to Ryan Air it's £8000 in your first year. Yes, these are basics but inc. flight pay it's an extra £400 per month take home.
If your based in the SE, rent will £800 minimum. Please don't even mention Mortgages - if you owe £40000. earn £18000. Do you think anybody in there right mind would lend you money for a flat? I know some people do the old magic "Self Certification" to get a Mortgage - which is actually Fraud, if you over state your income.
Sorry, to jump down your throat.

Consider this from your argument. If a Doctor ( why do we always use Doctors?) had to declare themselves bankrupt would you like them to be struck off? They may be very good at their job. Unfortunately, they had to pay their way thru medical school, didn't get that job the medical school gave an example of (sound familiar ?Oat?).Had to take some under paid job in an extremely expensive city (but it's a start).Living expenses are only just met by Income and that's without financing her debt.

As you will no doubt already of discovered in life there are winners and losers.Sometimes, everything goes to plan (smashing) but sometimes no matter how hard you try - it goes completely wrong.

I know, Dave, that this issue makes you angry. I get wound up over things too. However, in matters of this nature you should keep an open mind. One day you may need some help and advice.

Hope things keep good for you.
Twittwoo!!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Excellent posting PILOTOWL - we owe you a debt of thanks for taking such time to offer such insight, many many thanks.

If you want the debtline number included on a sticky then that can be done.

Cheers

WWW

[Grass strip basher]

START RANT

This is the most depressing thread I have read on Pprune.
I feel sorry for those that have genuinely got into financial difficulty but some of the posts on here I believe are just irresponsible and downright selfish.

Pilots moan and b*tch about things such as HSBC withdrawing their professional studies loan to modular pilots and then you look at a thread like this where there are people actively encourgaging people to borrow and then declared themselves bankrupt to avoid living up to their responsiblities! :yuk:

By taking the "oh I'll just declare myself bankrupt" route you are playing your own part in continually raising the barriers to entry and associated costs of pilot training... and then you just moan about the state of the aviation training industry.... can't you see the hypocrisy in that??

Declaring yourself bankrupt should be a LAST resort not a easy way out of shirking your responsibilities.... yes if you take out £50k of debt YOU are responsible for it.... fine if you are completely wiped out financially consider it as a last resort but taking a loan out with the intention of never repaying it you are no better than your average criminal.

This solidarity and telling each other "its okay to go bankrupt it doesn't really matter" is bonkers and damaging to those that set off down the long and expensive route to an fATPL after you

RANT OVER

[PILOTOWL]

Grass Stripper,
Thanks for your comments.

I don't think that the debt situation in this country is an exclusive domain of pilot training.
Anybody considering going to University IMHO is down right foolish. Imagine getting into debt with no guarentee of a job.
Did you see the news a few weeks ago about unemployed Doctors?
Imagine being in that position. More or less the same amount of debt as a student pilot.

The problem with our industry are two fold:
1 There is a up coming pilot shortage but the airlines won't admit it ( incase of industrial action)
2 Airlines don't want to pay for anything (everything low cost inc.us).

Most airlines want graduates (20,000) plus OAT Intergrated (63,000) and type (16,000). Grand total 99,000 !!!


So I can only predict that the debt/bankruptcy situation will only get worse, just like the rest of the country - Trillion Pounds!!


I would like to knowwhat BALPA's view on this is. There is an article in the Log this month but it doesn't say What They're doing about it.

Sorry, it is so depressing but I think we should face facts.

www. "we owe you a debt of gratitude" - no pun intended !
Is it possible to have a Finance sticky rather than debtline sticky. Debtline are very good they deal with everything not just Bankruptcy, but budgeting, dealing with credit agencies etc.
May be lenders for flight training could be put on too.
Thanks once again.

Sorry, forgot TWIT-TWOO !!!:ok:

[scroggs]

GTB, I take it you didn't bother reading (or couldn't understand) Pilotowl's posts, then? :hmm: :rolleyes:

Scroggs

[Frank Furillo]

It is a shame that in today's society we have young people, under 30, prepared to borrow what ever they can, where ever they can to fund training for aviation or otherwise.

I am 35, I had to wait until I was 33 before I was able to afford to train. I used to work in car sales and have always wanted to be a pilot. So I saved like hell and worked 60 hour weeks for years. Even then we had to sell our home and downsize. Now here I am two years later, I have finished. I am still going to work, at weekends in the dealer I used to be with. I do not regret this one bit, but I waited until I could afford to do this with the minimum impact in my life.

The problem I see is this everybody wants it now, they are not prepared to wait, well nobody said life is fair.
For anybody who is in real danger of bancruptcy,I do feel for you and hope you can sort it out, but just borrowing money as you are 18 or 21 because you cannot wait is madness.

[PILOTOWL]

Frank,
Totally agree with you. Unfortunately, How many times have you seen pilot sponsorship for the old and bold (like ourselves). Never.
Everyone I've seen in the last few months states that you have to be under 25. How many graduates (airlines like these) have the lump sum without having to borrow.

I have just read "the Log" (oct/nov)

Professional pilot training - What is the future? (page 17)
by Peter Moxham

I quote " The cost of obtaininga "frozen" ATPL has always been high. Intergrated courses cost in the region of 75,000 and more if you cost in the loss of earnings for the 15months under training. It has already become probably the most expensive career to embark upon and is now set to increase yet more. There is no government funding and banks are totally unwilling to loan unsecured amounts sufficient to meet these requirements, THUS IT IS ALREADY NOT A CASE OF QUALITY BUT WHOEVER HAS THE MONEY. "

page 18
" A few earn over-large sums but the MAJORITY of new entrants to-day effectively subsidise their own employment "

The posters on this thread, who think that people are taking Bankruptcy as an easy option. Should think again. If this is from BALPA it is definately a problem. May be those who are being dismissive are in self denial?

It is definately about time BALPA stuck it's neck out.

TWIT-TWOO

[Grass strip basher]

Scroggs I read and fully understood pilot owls post... he clearly has a lot of valuable things to contribute to the debate.... the thing that got my back up was the somewhat fillipant attitude towards bankruptcy that some other people seemed to be suggesting as an easy cure to all evils.

I think that Frank F has hit the nail on the head.... I am in the same boat as him and have worked bloomin' hard to avoid getting into debt whilst training... and then I see the "oh just get a big loan and then go bankrupt" attitude one or two people were alluding to as an acceptable approach... that does p*ss me off

From what I have seen and read in my (limited) experience many people straight out of school at the age of 18 have very little idea of the true value of money with many having never worked a full day in their lives. As a result I believe not enough thought is given to the consequences of getting yourself possibly £50-70k in debt with no guarantee of a job (a stance Pilotowl agrees with in his subsequent post).

In that context perhaps what would be more useful as a "sticky" would be a simple caculation showing the interest payments on a £50-70k of loan vs likely income in your first fews years as a junior first officer (if you are lucky enough to get a job).... then compare that to the cost of maintaining an acceptable standard of living (especially if you are then based in the south east).... hmmmm I did the calc and it was very enlightening

That may at least make 1 or 2 more people stop and think about the consequences of borrowing that amount of money and ending up as another person that unfortunately benefits from Pilotowls valuable insights

[PILOTOWL]

GSB,
Thanks again for your post. At last some intelligent debate on PPrune!!

Yes, lot's flippant attitude to debt by the young but what can you expect with this "socialist" government advertising student debt as a "leg up" towards a fantastic career as an out reach worker.

I spoke to DFO about is ideal NEW pilot:
Age 23-24, graduate, intergrated student pilot, willing to fund own TR.

The main problem lies with the airlines. We are generally the same age (30-35) and we are already penalised. We have saved, grafted done rubbish jobs to keep ourselves on an even keel and we are told that we are too old!! We have probably another 30-35 years of flying in us!! This is ageism at it's worst!

I once went to the career service (Why?:\ ) To find out about piloting. The character type it specified was someone who is, of sober character, does not undertake foolish risks, and is stable.

Now, if I was 23 years old, went down to my local HSBC asked for 75Grand. Would this fit the above job description?

It's absolutely laughable. I know OAT/CABair have all these wonderful schemes but they aren't the ones getting into huge debt. I came across OAT's forum the other day, the Big Chief there stated how wonderful this scheme was and stated that students could reasonably expect 31,000 minimum in their first year!! Where and who for? That figure may be the gross but it won't after stoppages, Tax/NI/ Type rating etc.

I know a few of the last BA sponsoship pilots - even after 5 years they're still paying it off. No choice either as it comes from there salary.

The airlines and FTO are to blame for this mess. If Lufty and KLM can still manage a proper sponsorship why can't the UK airlines.

Anyway, I'm digressing. So I'll leave it there.

TWIT-TWOO!!

[A320rider]

I am a qualified pilot with no job.

Borrowed money from family and the other part came from myself , ...at the end of my training all I got was the little jobs in aviation, skydiver, (we have to start somwhere, this is what "they" told me"
now airlines dont look at small guys and hard worker pilot like me with only 1000-2000h of cessna 150....

by chance I never put myself in big trouble with the justice!and my family will probably never seen their money again!

my salary was so low that when my company (ies) went bankrupt, all I got was the money from the government.
in fact I make more money from my unemployment office than working as a pilot.

It was hard to explain them, that if they wanted really to help me to get a job back, it was to pay me a type rating ...

the answer was"OUT OF QUESTION,ARE YOU MAD?, AT LEAST DO YOU HAVE A JOB CONTRACT??"!!!!!
" NO I DON'T, THEY WANT THE MONEY FIRST WITH NO GUARANTY"


anyway, if you can not borrow and have 500jet before 28, it will be to late.so airlines put the whole community in danger, and they are the one who are creating this mess.

[RVR800]

I was reading in the Sunday papers that there have been an increase in the number of bancrupts recently

[Vortex Thing]

First things 1st to answer the question posed above "Would you deny an addict methadone?"

Errm yep I'd lock them in a cell and make them go cold turkey at far less cost to the tax payer and then give them Beta blockers (cost a few pounds) so that should they ever try to use drugs again they become violently ill. I pay tax so that the infrastructure of this country can be looked after not so the idol, lazy and selfish can spend it in rehab but that's another thread....

Back to the thread though, I left university £15k in debt and it took me until my 30s to pay of my student debt. On leaving the forces I spent £70k on flying training all of which was borrowed unsecured.

A similar story to those above was that after a year of instructing I had to stop flying to earn enough to not go bankrupt. I have managed to get married and buy a house with my wife whilst having this debt outstanding only because I stopped flying.

The problem that we now have is that whilst we can afford to live on the £120k we earn between us my wife is an accountant and bankruptcy is not an option as she would be unable to practice and we ould loose our home.

Renting is more expensive than a mortgage where we live and we have no relatives within 150miles that would enable us to keep our jobs.

We cannot afford to live on a less than £120k for the next 6 years and whilst my wife currently contributes half there are not many 1st officers positions that pay enough. So what do I do?

[Little Blue Book]

Well it’s been over one and a half years since qualifying and still no job and yet the debts keep mounting. It’s got to such a point now that I am really struggling to keep my head above water and I can’t seem to get employment that is well enough paid to service my debts. The (F)ATPL can be a real hindrance on your CV to non-aviation employers! :mad:
Anyway, I was just wondering if any of you may have been in the same position as me and have been down the bankruptcy route. I’ve read much about it on www.insolvency.gov.uk (http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/) but I’d just like to get some personal feedback or advice. :ok:
Thanks folks!


NB. I know that many do not agree with bankruptcy as it is this that has turned HSBC away from funding us modular guys; and I wholly agree. However, I borrowed the money with the absolute intention or repaying my debt to the bank, as without their assistance I would not posses that little blue book. But with the airlines unwillingness to consider low hours pilots and their increasing reliance on us funding our own type ratings, I have been pushed into a very tight corner. :ouch: !

[Superpilot]

The (F)ATPL can be a real hindrance on your CV to non-aviation employers!

What did you do (with your life) prior to your professional training? I have about 4 different CV's. It's not illegal to hide bits of information you know, it's not a legal document! come one, must be something out there.

[VFE]

I would imagine quite a few of us guys have been pushed into the tight corner you're now experiencing LBB. Most, one suspects, keep things quiet to save face however, I myself find the task of getting flying work nigh on an impossibility owing to the same factors you state - namely type ratings. When some of us started our training it was not de-rigour to budget for a type rating at the end of the course and subsequently as a result have found ourselves knocking on the scrapheap door as funds simply do not exist to obtain one.

No use ranting and no use raving but my views these days are that if more people went into this game with their eyes a little wider open then perhaps they'd save a lot of heartache in the long run.

Stick to plumbing I say.

VFE.

[tom775257]

I have a question that is secondary to the initial posting.

Having an fATPL does seem a hindrance on the C.V. in getting a non-flying job...however even if you hide the fact that you have one; how does one explain away 1.5 years of training (or whatever)?

For what it's worth, I think there was a large thread on this topic some time back, perhaps you'll get lucky with a search.

Good luck, and all the best.

[Preston Watson]

Little blue book,

Many of us are in the same position. I can only say it is brave of you to say what is really happening, a prime example being yourself.

My advice to new wannabies - think twice before starting of a career for this industry, the amount of cash you need to do it would feed a small African nation! At the moment they need experienced pilots, but the industry will not get them, if they do not assist in the training costs to some extent for the newly qualified pilots to start to become experienced pilots.

The thread link on bankruptcy is:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=122055&perpage=20&highlight=bankrupt&pagenumber=1

You will find many have went belly up before you, but there is good detail and advice on the topic here.

Regards the gap in your career, as Super Pilot mentioned, you don't have to disclose it. Did you fly abroad? Why not just say you wanted to become more cultured and took a year out to travel abroad?


Best of luck.

[Little Blue Book]

Thanks for the link PW.:ok: Some good stuff on there.

Seems that there are quite a few of us all in the same situation which does not make happy reading. Bankruptcy isn't a nice option but (for some) it eventually becomes the only option left to take. :ugh:

Cheers lads :cool:

[A320rider]

if more people file bankruptcy, maybe one day we will see companies paying their pilots instead to be paid.
if we don't find a job, it is simply because this market is screwed!

I would not hesitate to file bankruptcy if I was in debt and start from scratch.
you have worked and studied hard for your license, and now they want more money from you(MCC, type rating, second type rating, pay for 500 hours, pay again for 200h, etc..)if you are in debt, it is NOT your fault!
companiers do not own you a job,but you have the right to make money with your license .And you have the right to get your head out of this s....

[Atreyu]

if you are in debt, it is NOT your fault!
companiers do not own you a job,but you have the right to make money with your license

I'm sure LBB and many others in his posistion can understand nobody owes you anything, especially in aviation!

And to be frank, as anyone will know, if you take a loan from a bank, then you ARE in debt, and it is on your own head. It's sickening nothing happens for low hours guys, but then its always a choice to take the plunge and undertake ATPL training. No-one forces any of us to do it! Sad but true I'm afraid

Keep your chins up folks :ok:

AT

[Mr Wonka]

As Atreyu points out to A320rider,

You take on a loan; therefore, it is your responsibility to make sure you can make the repayments. If there are those out there taking on more credit to pay for a type rating and or line training, then so be it. But it is there responsibility to repay the money and decide if it is worth the financial investment.

Many people for one reason or another find themselves falling behind with payments, the classic situation is becoming unexpectedly unemployed. This places a high degree of stress on your life as banks and lending agents are straight on your case day after day for there money.

The thread mentioned earlier is a good start, but think long and hard before declaring bankruptcy.

Happy New Year all

Mr W

[Strepsils]

If you can avoid it at all, avoid it!

If you declare bankrupt then you will have a huge dirty mark on what is left of your credit rating for around 5 years. Should you be offered a flying job in that time, how will you meet the bond? You won't get a loan from a bank, therefore possibly no job. Viscious circle.

[Atreyu]

Insolvency isn't the miracle cure by any means. I would imagine it would be a struggle to keep a bank account open (stand to be corrected on that one) Also taking anything on Finance, a car, a house even a TV would be impossible as you would have no credit rating, Unless your partner has credit and can take on repayments on your house and/or car then life would become quite difficult.

Just a thought

AT

[ManfredvonRichthofen]

There is the Individual Voluntary Arrangement too

worth considering if you really are in deep water


http://www.insolvencyhelpline.co.uk/paye-employed/the-iva-procedure.htm

[Mr Wonka]

If the courts think that it is possible that you will land yourself with a job paying a large salary, then they can claw back some off there losses from that income, by extending the length of your bankruptcy. Also when they investigate your application for bankruptcy they will want a very good reason why you have taken on a loan (Like paying for a type rating and line training) and then immediately filed your papers. Also they can extend your term if they think you are trying to pull a fast one.

Future assets will be lost: Any asset that might have been acquired during the term of the bankruptcy, such as inheritances, insurance payouts/maturities, equity in property, windfalls, etc., and possibly pension income. Kiss them all good bye. Remember Lie to the courts, and you DO GO TO JAIL. Then try to get a job with a criminal record.

Every Charted accountant and the citizen’s advice (CAB) will tell you never never go down the route of bankruptcy. EVER. But one of the exception’s to this is if your debts are substantial, a figure of £200,000 or more. Otherwise it just isn’t worth it. The CAB are free and impartial always use them; they are there to help you and probably guide you towards the best solution for you , one of these can be an Individual Voluntary Arrangement.

After receiving your papers from the bankruptcy court, declaring you officially discharged from your term of bankruptcy its still not over.

You can officially apply to get a bank account but finding a bank that will allow you to open one will be difficult and then, only with a number of restrictions.

You CAN get loans BUT as with the bank account, finding a lender will prove very difficult and then the apr will be so high you’ll need to use a pair of binoculars. Don’t forget that mobile phones and internet providers etc. all require a credit search, so your credit rating lasting for about 5 or 6 years, will put off any suppliers. There is now such a large amount of credit consumers in debt that banks are trying to share your information between them to help prevent people from going to much into debt.

It doesn’t stop there as many application forms and some visas ask the dreaded question

Have you EVER been declared bankrupt?

If you’re lucky some forms only ask the question

Have you ever in the LAST 6 years been declared bankrupt?

So from a good friend of mine not involved in aviation but who has been through it, his comment is

Seek out free impartial advice CAB ,
Communicate with the banks and lenders, write to them and call them,make them aware of your current situation asap,
and try everything NOT to go bankrupt.

Mr W

[Preston Watson]

Mr. Wonka,

You aren't being helpful at all, the last thing anyone wants to here is scaremungering 'go to jail/pulling a fast one/kiss everything goodbye/on your case day after day for there money' rubbish! Where do you get the magic figure £200k from, is it from your 'good friend' - one word rubbish! I do agree with your statement about the CAB, giving impartial and SUPPORTIVE advice, which you are not. I also agree about doing something about it.

Bankruptcy is the term given when you cannot afford to pay your creditors, and they take you to court to claim back assets you may have. You do not need to be £200k or more to claim bankruptcy, trust deeds are the better option. If the Bank place a 'seriatim' on you and want the whole lot back then take you to court and you can't pay then you go through the process of bankruptcy if you have assets, otherwise I believe it is a discharge. However if you have a job and can pay back any amount per month then a Trust Deed is the preferable option, where you have a reasonable amount to live on while you pay back a reasonable amount per month over a 3 year period if you are in Scotland or a 1 year period if you are in England.

The CAB deal with your case and liase with the creditors on your behalf.

Strepsils - There are other jobs you could do whilst paying back a reasonable amount of money. You can also have a post office account, which your salary can be paid into.

Little Blue Book - Go to the CAB they will give you proper advice and will keep you right. It isn't worth worrying about and having ill health as a result, as I'm sure Mr. Wonka would like. I'm sure you won't want more loans/cards after this anyway. I've heard that mortgages are still available at maybe 1% extra, and you can still get credit after having been in this situation, not that you'd probably want it anyway!

Good Luck.

[Atreyu]

You do not need to be £200k or more to claim bankruptcy,

To be clear (and fair), Mr Wonka didn't state that you needed 200k debt or over to declare bankrupt, only that (in his opinion ofcourse) that bankruptcy is a only worthwhile option when your debts are over £200,000

AT

[RowleyUK]

get a job on the gropund around the aircraft such as a baggage handler or Dispatcher......I did it and had 2 interviews within 2 weeks of finishing my MCC........Yeah its crap but you lrean alot and make great contacts!

[scroggs]

Bankruptcy is a very serious business and not to be taken lightly. The affects on your financial life are long-lasting and deep. Mr Wonka's advice and tone are, in my opinion, entirely sound - and this topic is timely, given the ever-increasing costs of obtaining your licences. The figures may vary depending on who advises you, but, to all wannabes, do not think that bankruptcy offers an easy way out!

That said, if you really do face a financial dead-end, go and see the Citizens' Advice Bureau soonest. Talk to your bank and any other creditors. Do not go deep and silent; you will regret it later.

Scroggs

[Mr Wonka]

Hello All

To clear a few points up.

I have through hard work managed to pay back all my loans, with such large amounts of money involved this is something I am very very proud of.

Having a friend who sadly for him, found himself going down the route of bankruptcy, has helped me make a few suggestions for LBB and others. Thus, hopefully reducing the amount of illness caused by stress. Remember that being forewarned is to be forearmed. Thus the reason i took the time and trouble to respond to LBB.

Preston Watson, all I can say is that you have displayed a true lack of knowledge of this thread. You’re cynical, ill informed, contradictory comments combined with an inability to read properly, does you no favours at all. Cheap comments are never going to help anyone. Your other comments where merely a reiteration of advice I had already given,( I’m flattered).

Bankruptcy is the term given when you cannot afford to pay your creditors, and they take you to court to claim back assets you may have

Not to be as vauge as PW.

Bankruptcy is in fact the granting of an Order from the bankruptcy court following the presentation of a Bankruptcy Petition to the Court to obtain protection from collection efforts of your creditors. The court fee is to be paid in cash only, wise people.

When you cannot pay your creditors this is called, going into further debt.

If the Bank place a 'seriatim' on you and want the whole lot back then take you to court and you can't pay then you go through the process of bankruptcy if you have assets, otherwise I believe it is a discharge.

So by this logic if you have no assets, you are therefore discharged? You believe it is a discharge?

Fact. Bankruptcy is there to protect you and help you settle your debts the best way for both parties. Providing you have not been made bankrupt before, your bankruptcy will end (you will be ‘discharged’) after about 12 months, after which you will be free from debt and no further action can be brought by your creditors, although you may still have to make payments from your income for a further 3 years. There are certain exceptions to this, for example you may still owe any unpaid court fines and student loans. The trustee will still be able to take action to sell your house etc. (assets) if equity rises significantly, and the trustee will retain this right indefinitely.

The bankruptcy will remain on record at the Land Registry and with credit reference agencies, although you will no longer be declared bankrupt
Seriatim is latin for one after another.

I've heard that mortgages are still available at maybe 1% extra, and you can still get credit after having been in this situation
So where PW conjured up this magical figure then, I dont know. But as i mentioned before lenders will have a rate which you will find to be a lot higher from the deals on offer to most. With good reason too.

For LBB and others I hope that you will see that at the end of the day, bankruptcy is best avioded, head off towards the CAB and deal with this sooner rather than later. For wannabes out there think carefully please, and have a plan B just in case you dont manage to walk stright into the right seat.

http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index.htm


If I missed this from the previous post, then the best of british to you all and I wish you well for 2006 .

Mr W

[FFP]

"if more people file bankruptcy, maybe one day we will see companies paying their pilots instead to be paid."

Yeah ! Right ! .. . .

Exactly which world are you living in ?

[Atreyu]

A320rider doesn't live in this world! :}

AT :cool:

[RVR800]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4676636.stm

[Fancy Navigator]

Hi,
No moaning but just my two pence worth....
It is true that nobody owes you a flying job, etc....We have heard that one too often....but why let people go through the expense of training to a high standard if you are not going to use them? Poor way to manage people's talents and resources!

The thing is, flying schools, regulated by the CAA, are well happy to advertise and promise you wonders, jobs in shiny jets, but once you are qualified, nothing happens. No organisation to help you find a job, etc.... You are on your own! One must not forget that these flying schools are businesses, all they are interested in is your money, so that they can survive.

If you look at teachers for example, once you qualify, at least, you can get supply work no bother, which helps you pay the bills and your student loan. In some parts of the UK, you even have a job guaranteed for a year!!! However, it has to be said that the government regulates the number of people who train every year and there is not an excess of newly qualified teachers so that you are always going to find work. In what industry or sector do you see people unemployed after they have graduated? and for that amount of time?

So the advice is..... unless you have the money or you are sure you are going to get a job at the end of it (the 1 billion dollar question), do not borrow this huge sum you need for a F ATPL ! If you do not have the money, do not do it! I know that most of us need to borrow and that flying would then only be open to rich people, but at the end of the day, you have NO guarantees to get a job at the end, above all with 250 hours. Is it worth investing 30-60K for a job you might never get? Don't bother!:ok:

[Gnirren]

Or you might argue that you only live once, so if it's your dream then go for it. Personally I'd regret never knowing if I could've made it more than trying and failing. Better to have loved and lost...

[dynamite dean]

If you can avoid it at all, avoid it!
If you declare bankrupt then you will have a huge dirty mark on what is left of your credit rating for around 5 years. Should you be offered a flying job in that time, how will you meet the bond? You won't get a loan from a bank, therefore possibly no job. Viscious circle.

I think it is 12 or 24 months now as the legislation has changed correct me if I am wrong; well you know that classic phrase ' if you owe the bank 30 grand you have the problem if you owe the bank 100 million the bank has the problem ' - how does Donald Trump get by?

And the industry leads by example how many major airlines do we hear gone bangers over the years - pilot's with bankruptcy is just a microcosm of what IS going on everyday of every hour of every minute of the day within the greatest occupation on the planet!

People who have been in serious debt is no joke of course but ultimatley do whatever the hell you have to do to get out of the crap but if the last resort is to go insolvent, do it ; don't do it again and move one with your life:ok:

[Dude~]

Saw on the news last night a profile of a student who went bankrupt with loans of £22K. She will have poor credit rating for 6 years so no loans, credit cards or mortgages during that period...

[Desk-pilot]

I'm sorry to hear of your plight but my suggestion is to seek out highly paid work either going back to a previous career or train in something new and in demand. I have had to fall back into IT where I worked for over 10 years. If you don't have a skill like that I would suggest you get into driving buses, HGV's, trains or learn a trade. The other day while driving to work I saw an ad on the back of a bus offering training to be a bus driver - starting salary is £25000 if memory serves which is more than many airlines are paying us. I suspect all the training would be paid for and provided and at the end of the day too.

IN many ways I think there are probably many parallels between airline pilots and bus drivers, it's just the money's better for bus drivers!

Desk-pilot

[chester2005]

Hi all

I have done a search for information but the only thread i could find has been closed for 12 months, so here goes.

If a budding professional pilot is bankrupt how would it likely effect the chances of getting a job?

Anyone who has been down this road with personal insight, their comments would be most welcome.

Regards Chester

[scroggs]

The fact that the thread was closed doesn't alter the fact that the answers you need (but may not want) are almost certainly contained within. Nevertheless, as this seems to be a prevalent subject in the national news, I have reopened it.

Scroggs

[chrisbl]

It would be helpful to have an airline personnel person come on here and give a view.

I do know that in a few of the more obvious professions like law, accountancy etc, bankruptcy would be an automatic reason for expulsion from the professional body as it calls into question judgement.

Whether those same standards exist in aviation I doubt.

[Maltese Falcon]

Chester,

I spoke to a Balpa legal advisor before I declared bankruptcy 6 months ago and was assured that a potential employer would not legally be able to discriminate against me because I had declared bankruptcy. So if that is what concerns you, then I would suggest that you don't let it.

However, as a bankrupt, you will not be eligible for bank loans should you wish to borrow money for a type rating which might close a few doors to you. However, when it comes to jobs which involve a bond rather than an SSTR, you are as eligible as the next man/woman and there is no reason that your employer need ever find out that you have declared bankruptcy.

Bankruptcy does not suit everyone's circumstances but for me it has turned my life around and made me a much happier person. I had no property or assets to lose and only a cheap car which I was allowed to keep. I declared bankruptcy shortly after starting my first airline job (after nearly 4 years of instructing which crippled me financially). I wanted to make sure that I definitely wasn't going to need to borrow more money for a type rating before I took the plunge. If my first job had been a high paying jet job, even one requiring an SSTR, then I wouldn't have declared bankruptcy but as it was a low paying turboprop job, bankruptcy made perfect sense. I know that my next career move cannot invlove an SSTR but that, for me at my stage in the game, only really rules out easy and Ryanair, neither of which are high on my list of potential employers anyway. However, if you haven't got an airline job yet, you might want to wait until you have, just to hedge your bets.

I read this thread 6 months ago before I declared bankruptcy and I must say there is alot of misinformation and prejudice contained within its pages. Bankruptcy is designed to give a fresh start to people who have messed up, sometimes through little fault of their own, and that is exactly what it has done for me. I have a new bank account with internet banking facilities, standing orders and direct debits but apart from that I live, quite comfortably, in a cash world. No credit card bills or pestering phone calls. It's bliss.

[chester2005]

Maltese Falcon

Thank you for giving me that insight, i am more into the rotary world so type ratings, self funded or otherwise don't really enter into it.

I will be able to source privately, the funds for either a FI(H) course or an IR(H) conversion course when i have finished the JAR ATPLs so i am thinking that Bankruptcy is the right path for me to take, as at the moment just to service the debt i have accrued is costing me £2400 per month and it takes a bit of earning on top of normal bills!!

Thanks again Chester:ok:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Were I to have say a 20yr old son or daughter who wanted to become a pilot then I would find it difficult to argue AGAINST going bankrupt.

A determined effort could result in borrowing around £50k of unsecured debt which could be used to attain a CPL/IR. Being a piece of paper with no monetary value the baliffs would have no interest in taking it off you once bankrupt.

At 21/22/23 you are not going to have any material possesions other than a car (which could be in my name) and a mobile phone. There is no stigma to bankrupty anymore and the penalties are mild and shortlived.

Borrowing and repaying £50k even if it is done as cheaply as your parents might do it in the form of remortgaging will still cost 1.75 times the sum borrowed, ie £87.5k

Such a debt so early in life will have massive repercussions for your lifetime wealth. So I would find it difficult to argue against any son or daughter of mine taking advatage of the current lending climate and bankruptcy rules.

Morally it is the wrong thing to do but logically it is the correct thing to do.
I'm more of a logician than a moraliser...

Cheers

WWW

[scroggs]

Very subversive, WWW. I love it! You rebel, you...

Scroggs

[Bealzebub]

:eek: As a moderator I am not all sure you should be promoting that advice as "logically" it might definetaly Not be the correct thing to do. As a father of a son who wants to engage in Commercial pilot training, I would advocate the patent stupidity of bankruptcy as an option unless it was completely unavoidable and even then only after every other avenue had been exhausted. In reality there are no easy shortcuts to the profession, and this applies particularly to the financial aspects, as so many people here know only too well.

In fact most lenders are constrained by the financial services act, and since last year have tightened up their lending criteria. Lending is now much more geared up to the applicants repayment ability. In truth unsecured lending of 50 -60k has never been an easy proposition despite anecdotal "evidence" to the contrary.

You will now find that banks who previously promoted "career lending" schemes for pilots or anybody else, either no longer do so, or are much more circumspect in their lending. Commercial lenders are not in any way obliged to lend you money, and there is a fairly sophisticated database of credit history and performance that all lenders subscribe to. Any history of bankruptcy is likely to make future lending difficult and well beyond the rates offered to the "prime" market.

The following is an extract on the problems of bankruptcy :

Credit and Other Problems

Nearly all finance companies, banks and many employers ask whether a person is or has been a Bankrupt. Records of a bankruptcy will also often by kept by credit agencies for up to six years. For this reason difficulties with obtaining credit or getting work in certain professions can persist for a number of years, even after discharge.

Bankruptcy Restrictions Orders

If a person has acted unlawfully or recklessly in accumulating their bankruptcy debts, they can be subjected to a Bankruptcy Restriction Order which extends the restrictions on credit and business activities for up to 15 years.

Bankruptcy Offences

Certain types of conduct prior to or during bankruptcy give rise to special offences which can be punished by fines, imprisonment or both. These mostly arise from concealing property, misleading the Official Receiver or Trustee in their enquiries, or simply failing to cooperate with either of them without very good cause.

Antecedent Transactions

Although not treated as offences, the Courts have special powers to overturn certain types of transaction that occurred prior to bankruptcy. Essentially, these are concerned with ensuring that Creditors are not unfairly treated. Examples include gifts made to the Bankrupt’s family that caused the insolvency or made it worse (called “Transactions at Undervalue”) or repayments made to some creditors in order to make them better off than others (called “Preferences”). Time limits apply to such transactions which vary according to whether the recipient is an associate of the Bankrupt or a family member.

So, why go Bankrupt?

We would never encourage anyone to go bankrupt without considering other options like an Individual Voluntary Arrangement (IVA) first. Bankruptcy can never be a pleasant experience and it can involve very real penalties for homeowners, business people, or people in special professions.

[Maltese Falcon]

Logically, bankruptcy was absolutely the correct thing for me to do. It wasn't unavoidable but it made perfect financial sense and I would have been stupid not to have done it. Beware of IVAs. They're a good idea if you have property or assets that you don't want to lose or if you're in a profession such as law or accounting where bankruptcy is a no no. An IVA can however work out alot more expensive than bankruptcy as you will have to pay a monthly sum over 5 years rather than the 3 for bankruptcy. And with an IVA, your credit rating will be screwed as much as it is with bankruptcy. Companies offering IVAs love to warn of the perils of bankruptcy because IVAs are their bread and butter.

But back to Chester2005's original concern. Bealzebub is wrong if he thinks that you will be asked on application forms or in interviews if you have ever declared bankruptcy. You're not going to be doing the company books so it is not a relevant question and would therefore be discriminatory. My current employer knows that I am bankrupt (but couldn't give a monkey's as it doesn't stop me being a good pilot or employee) because when you declare bankruptcy, your tax code changes until the end of that financial year and then reverts back to what it was. However, if you start a new job before the end of that financial year, your tax code reverts to what it was before you declared bankruptcy so your new employer will not find out that you are a bankrupt/discharged bankrupt. Would they care anyway? Some might take a dim view but I'm sure many would see it as sound decision making!

[waterpau]

Assuming that the 20 year old gets a job flying, it sounds like a good logical idea. However, if they were to lose their licence, not get a job, or have to pursue a different career later in life, their options would be restricted. I don't think even discharged bankrupts could go into the professions, and whilst employers aren't legally allowed to discriminate, in reality they might find a way to do so. They won't be able to run their own business while undischarged, but from memory that's only for around 2 years.

Sounds like it's **** or bust...

waterpau

[Kerosine]

Listening to all this is very interesting.

I think the key is to know your circumstances now and speculate 5 and 10 years into the future, and also take some sound advice form people that know this inside out. The last thing you want to is to go for it and find it's not as rosy as it all sounded over the phone and get double buggered.

Something like this can sound very tempting especially for young people like me, looking forward to an enormous amount of debt at such a young age, knowing we don't actually need to hold onto it (if you're prepared for the consequences of bankruptcy).

It's nice to know it's worked out for you Maltese Falcon, an example of how the system works, but when you work it too hard and push it too far it may just backfire.

[Lucifer]

At 21/22/23 you are not going to have any material possesions other than a car (which could be in my name) and a mobile phone. There is no stigma to bankrupty anymore and the penalties are mild and shortlived.
Although I have every sympathy with those who have to do it and have posted on here, the suggestion that WWW makes above is so utterly stupid, naive and foolish that I cannot let it stand without vehemently arguing against it. You are mad to willingly enter bankruptcy if there is another route out, and I would expect a moderator here is have an ounce of common sense on the matter. Evidently not.

Consider - you will NOT be able to get a mortgage, credit card (think overseas spending), mobile phone on contract. Huge numbers of careers that you may require as backup are out (as mentioned above), and if you don't have a parental home to move to, could ruin relationships with friends and partners who cannot support you.

I suggest that if WWW is to advocate this route, he gets to know a few bankrupted people first, and whether his assertion holds any water at all based upon their reality.

[Lucifer]

Something like this can sound very tempting especially for young people like me, looking forward to an enormous amount of debt at such a young age, knowing we don't actually need to hold onto it (if you're prepared for the consequences of bankruptcy).
You are utterly mad to plan to enter bankruptcy before you have even borrowed!

WWW - can you not see that the consequence of you advocating such a route is completely reckless behaviour such as this?!

Essentially, our young friend here is now tempted to make a financial decision based upon a completely and utterly warped financial analysis that does nothing of ensuring sustainability of his/her financial decisions.

[hixton]

Yes but his bankruptcy is not going to last forever is it?
I'm sure the bankruptcy would be cleared quicker than he could pay the debt off!

[Lucifer]

Yes but his bankruptcy is not going to last forever is it?
I'm sure the bankruptcy would be cleared quicker than he could pay the debt off!
That's not the point if he has not yet drawn down the debt!

Speed is irrelevant - person responsibility and clear understanding of the consequences, which are solely lacking in this thread, are the point.

Until he gets to the stage of the other posters, whereby he entered into a loan in good faith and found that he was unable to repay at a later stage, then, and only then, should bankruptcy ever be considered.

I reiterate, that to think otherwise is utterly, utterly stupid.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

No - I stand by the logic of using planned bankruptcy to fund your basic training.

You use the loans and credit to pay for your exams and flight training and THEN go bankrupt at the end when you are unfortunately unemployed and seeking work.

The period of bankruptcy lasts 2 years. After which all normal credit and mortgage products are open to you. You are not allowed to become a company director or to be an accountant. Big deal.

So unless you plan on directing your own business or becoming an accountant then there is very little penalty beyond 2 years. Your biggest risk is the judge. You have to convince them that you spent the money in good faith fully expecting to be able to pay it back.

I contend that it is relatively simple and believable to stand in court and explain that you believed that open gaining a CPL/IR Frzn ATPL that you would be able to get a job.

* Exhibit A could be the marketing brochure from several large and well respected FTOs.
* Exhibit B could be a copy of Flight International from a few months back reporting a large and growing shortage of pilots.
* Exhibit C could be the PPJN or BALPA or IPA salary reports which suggest a junior First Officer could expect to earn above the national average wage in their first year of employment.

Any judge looking at that evidence and the evidently earnest young man in front of him will allow bankruptcy without batting an eyelid. It would take about 15 minutes and the nice clerk of the court would help you throughout.

An airline wouldn't give a stuff whether or not you've been bankrupt and they wouldn't ask as its not relevant to the job and asking non relevant questions is a big no no for recruiters.

Logically there is a massive upside of circa £90k by going bankrupt to the tune of £50k owed to various large banks and credit card companies for whom I cannot make my heart bleed.

At 22 you have no assets they can seize.
Its all discharged in two years (and in most cases 18 months).
There is no social stigma.
There is tiny and very manageable risk that the judge will spot your cunning plan.

And I know of three people who raised over £50k in unsecured loan and credit cards. It really isn't difficult. Enrol at the local college for some part time hairdressing course but don't bother attending much thus accessing 3 years of max student loans. Have a part time job and live at home whilst distance learning the ATPL course. With this job and income you can easily take an unsecured personal loan from a high street bank, plus an overdraft. A further unsecured loan from one of those dodgy daytime TV advertised loan companys and then get two credit cards with £10,000 limits on them after just 6 months of good behaviour - BINGO, £50k.

You have to plan it. You have to build a slight credit history and show some income and enrol as a student somewhere. My son could give me his credit cards and I could spend on them and give him the money to pay them off - no skin off my nose and his credit history become A1 in about 6 months.

It can be done and it HAS been done and it DOES work. No point pretending otherwise.


As for me as a Moderator encouraging discussion and analysis - that is what this forum is here for. Loads of people in flying schools and loads of flying instructors are well aware of the planned bankruptcy strategy. I would rather it be talked about here frankly and in detail than Wannabes rely on one sided hearsay in flying club bars.

Its legalised theft certainly. But logically its the correct thing to do.

For sure.

Cheers

WWW

[Lucifer]

Just read this for example:
http://www.debtcounsellors.co.uk/bankruptcy.html
Facts about Bankruptcy

Bankruptcy facts must not be taken lightly — It should not be considered if you have assets of any reasonable value and own your own home, even if there is little or no equity. Contrary to what might be said about the new Enterprise Act, which states that certain classifications of bankrupts could be discharged in twelve months, this will happen in relatively few cases, and it should be remembered that the stigma of bankruptcy will probably NEVER go away.

Even after being discharged, it can affect the ability to obtain a mortgage or get credit for many years to come. Being declared bankrupt is a very public matter, some of the effects are

Bankruptcy is always advertised: The bankruptcy application will be advertised in the London Gazette and the local press where you live.
Notification is made to everyone financially connected: Your bank, building society, creditors, landlord, etc will be informed immediately.
Bankrupts cannot run a business: Any business you own will be closed immediately.

Future assets will be lost: Any asset that might have been acquired during the term of the bankruptcy, such as inheritances, insurance payouts/maturities, equity in property, windfalls, etc., and possibly pension income.

All accounts closed: Bank accounts, credit cards will be closed. Anything that is being purchased by lease or HP, such as your car, will be immediately returned to its owner.

Previous Bankrupts: People that have been bankrupt before should be very careful about being made bankrupt again, as the minimum period of bankruptcy is 5 years, and could continue for up to 15 years before being discharged.

Professional & Business Status: Certain employment situations will be prejudiced by being declared bankrupt, and professional and business status will be lost. Membership of many associations and societies will also be lost.

The Bankruptcy Myths

'They will not take my house, it is in negative equity.' The Official Receiver will place a charge on the property, effectively preventing it's sale,and will wait, long after your bankruptcy has been discharged, to get his hands on any available equity that has come about due to increased property values.
'They won't take my home, I have a wife & young family.' They will, unless your partner can prove they have an interest in the property, in which case the Official Receiver will allow your partner to purchase your share of the equity. If they are unable to do this, then the Trustee in Bankruptcy will, after 12 months, have the right to obtain possession and subsequently issue an eviction order.

'I put my home into my partners name years ago.' They will take your home, unless you can prove that your partner paid the full value at the time of the transfer and has since paid the mortgage in full. You will also have to account for the funds.

'My new business is in my partners name, and all profits will be taken by my partner.' This is regarded as a criminal activity by The Trustees in Bankruptcy and any assets earned during the bankruptcy will be forfeit.

[Re-Heat]

No - I stand by the logic of using planned bankruptcy to fund your basic training.
The period of bankruptcy lasts 2 years. After which all normal credit and mortgage products are open to you. You are not allowed to become a company director or to be an accountant. Big deal.
WWW,

The behaviour you advocate is completely reckless and downright fraudulent. I do not expect a moderator on this board to espouse those views - you are not encouraging discussion with your post; you are advocating a course of action.

Your assertions are completely incorrect, dangerous and reckless, and simply add to the problem that we have in this country of young people making poor financial decisions to enter flying training with little of no prospect of future employment, not to mention the lack of formal selection that many of the aforementioned candidates will undertake.

Regards,

Re-Heat
Chartered Accountant

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Again I must dispassionately disagree.

Its not a poor financial decision - it is a very good one from a purely financial point of view.

I don't have a son or daughter who wants to get into aviation but its an excellent hypothesis from which to explore the merits and demerits of planned bankruptcy. I'm very pleased with this thread so far as both sides are being argued thoroughly.


Lucifer, if I may address your points from the perspective of my mythical 22yr old son now clutching a CPL/IR from the CAA in his hand:

* He has no assets other than his trainers and mobile phone and they really won't take them.

* You say the stigma will never go away. Short of paedophilia I don't think ANYTHING carries stigma these days, certainly not bankruptcy. Some of our finest business leaders have been bankrupt at some point...

* Pulish the bankruptcy wherever you like, for saving £87k I'd have him parade throught the town with a sandwhich board proclaiming the fact.

* Everyone I know who went bankrupt actually had the banks chasing them for business after 18 months. My Mum works for Barclays and they'll give you a current account and mortgage and credit card the day after your bankruptcy is discharged.

* Well if granny dies during the bankruptcy we will have changed the will for 2 years to allow for this - I called it planned bankruptcy for a reason.

* Fine close the accounts.

* He would only be planning to go bankrupt once.

* OK - so in future if he wants to join the Association of British Accountants Dining Club he might have a problem. But the Masons will still have him.

* He doesn't have a home or business or any other asset other than a FREE CPL/IR Frzn ATPL which has no monetary value and cannot be seized.


Cheers

WWW

[potkettleblack]

Why go down the bankruptcy route when you can instead enter into a voluntary arrangement with your creditors and get finance at a substantial discount? An example would be this....

Wanabee X manages to raise the £50k or so he needs for his training via a mix of loans and credit cards. After they have their shiny new licences they then go to the creditor(s) and say I cannot repay the debt and will delcare myself bankrupt unless you take say 40p in the pound for the debt I owe. 40p is not actually a bad return for the bank/credit card company and a darn sight more than nought if you went bankrupt! Various legal discharge documents get signed and hey presto you just got your training for significantly less and don't have the worry of bankruptcy following you around. If you don't want to deal directly with the creditors then there are a host of financial organisations willing to take a cut of the pie and play hard ball on your behalf.

[Re-Heat]

* OK - so in future if he wants to join the Association of British Accountants Dining Club he might have a problem. But the Masons will still have him.
And conveniently you ignore Lucifer's point about future earnings.
Membership at the Lodge generally involves giving money for charitable works. Bit hard if you don't have any.

[Stick Flying]

WWW,
I only stumbled upon the last few posts here but "Planned Bankruptcy", please tell me I am mis-interpretting your impression on this one. I surely hope you are not encouraging Fraudulent intent. Entering into any contract you know you will not be able to honour is illegal.

Notwithstanding that I do not wish to fund someone elses (through higher insurance levies) career path having already done it legitamitely myself. If someone gets into financial strife due to unforseen circumstances, so be it. But to deliberately load up a financial debt you are never going to even contemplate paying, that is illegal, immoral and I would certainly be concerned having someone as devious as that on my employee list.

What would be the next step, 'Backstabbers base bidding', 'Secret handshake roster preference'.

[RVR800]

Of course borrowing money that isnt paid back will result in other pilots being unable to borrow from that source as it becomes uneconomic for the provider
to repeat the lending to others

This will result in lost opportunity for others who have the ability to pay off the debt to secure funding. This is I know part of a me-now culture - fashionable I know but selfish.

Isnt "planning" to do this a tad dodgy smacks of intent - I would not advocate this. Ive filled in too many forms that say have you any CCJs
etc (no time limit)

If you get a criminal conviction which may happen if it was proved that you set out to defraud (may happen) then the conviction it will appear on a standard and enhanced disclosure in perpetuity - you wont get a job anyway!

Disclosure is becoming more common these days so beware.........

I would argue against this "advice"

[Grass strip basher]

"All accounts closed: Bank accounts, credit cards will be closed. Anything that is being purchased by lease or HP, such as your car, will be immediately returned to its owner. "

A bit off topic but how do you get paid if you don't have a bank account? Used tenners in a brown paper envelope at the end of each day?!? :)

[Re-Heat]

"All accounts closed: Bank accounts, credit cards will be closed. Anything that is being purchased by lease or HP, such as your car, will be immediately returned to its owner. "
A bit off topic but how do you get paid if you don't have a bank account? Used tenners in a brown paper envelope at the end of each day?!? :)
Well you know those cheque-cashing facilities that are located in pawn shops down the grimey end of tomn? 10% commission to cash or thereabouts.

[Bealzebub]

How bizzare that a moderator should use this forum as a soapbox to promote such potentially damaging advice.

I am not sure if you considered this bit of my previous post ?

If a person has acted unlawfully or recklessly in accumulating their bankruptcy debts, they can be subjected to a Bankruptcy Restriction Order which extends the restrictions on credit and business activities for up to 15 years.

That is not to mention the fraudulent aspect of such "advice".
Whatever your mum suggests, any accounts, credit cards or mortgages that may be offered the day after a legal discharge from bankruptcy are likely to be basic (if at all) and then at rates that reflect the risk. You might also consider that Banks regularly turn down applicants for such products that have never been subject to a bankruptcy.

I hope the rest of your advice is not indicative of this particular piece of prose, since I fear you may seriously undermine its gravitas if it is ?
HSBC has recently ceased to offer products aimed at Pilot career training, is it any wonder why ? Maybe you should point the wannabee bankruptees towards your mums branch ? :)

[Maltese Falcon]

You open a new bank account on the day you are declared bankrupt.

[Kerosine]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerosine http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3062532#post3062532)
Something like this can sound very tempting especially for young people like me, looking forward to an enormous amount of debt at such a young age, knowing we don't actually need to hold onto it (if you're prepared for the consequences of bankruptcy).

You are utterly mad to plan to enter bankruptcy before you have even borrowed!

WWW - can you not see that the consequence of you advocating such a route is completely reckless behaviour such as this?!

Essentially, our young friend here is now tempted to make a financial decision based upon a completely and utterly warped financial analysis that does nothing of ensuring sustainability of his/her financial decisions


I am explaining how it "can be tempting". Yes some people are thinking about trying, admit it (not me however)

Chill your beans lucy, I'm not off my tits.

Dave

WWW is a bad influence, yes, however he is welsh.

[pugzi]

I am quiet shocked by WWW comments. "I stand by the logic of using planned bankruptcy to fund your basic training."

Where have we gone, whatever happened to decency, honour and hard work. What a role model!. "Here son, do this, it's illegal but don't worry, they'll never catch you". What other moral standard do you comprise on?

Your supposed to be a moderator for crying out load. You vigorously uphold and defend the rules of your own website, yet you flout the rules of this land openly. This is not stealing a pencil stuff, your openly supporting fraud. I am glad there is more than enough people to condemn you than praise you.

[Kerosine]

Ok, please would everyoneone stop crying for a moment :rolleyes:

WWW has a right (I use this term loosely after seeing the grilling dished out on the "Pprune posting policy" topic) to express his opinion, and the right (caaareful..) to justify it.

Anyone on these forums that takes 'advice' on such important topics of bankruptcy at face value without any other research or professional opinion quite clearly should not be flying me to Tenerife.

Yes, I hear you scream, the young wannabes! I know, they are more easily influenced, without being condescending (I'm probably one myself), but they're not in a position to take out 50K of loans.

The people that are old enough to know better (and to declare bankruptcy) will not stand in front of the judge when delcaring bankruptcy and explain how a welshman on Pprune 'made me do it'.

Please let people express their opinions and allow them to discuss.

I think good on you WWW for putting forward something thought provoking.

Peace!

Dave

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I didn't change the bankrupcy timescale from 7 years to 2. I didn't make it an easy and commonplace process to enter into. I didn't de-regulate the financial service sector to the point where they are standing at Freshers Fairs desperately trying to get students to take out maximum loans plus overdraft facility plus a credit card in exchange for immediate cash back and a shint clock radio.

The facts are simple.

You can easily rack up £50k worth of debt which you use on flying training.

You can easily then go bankrupt at a young age and lose nothing.

You can easily live with the shame and there are no significant downsides for the youngester taking the planned bankruptcy path.


I've never said it is moral or legal. I have said it is logical. Which it is.

Not my fault.


Cheers

WWW

[Re-Heat]

The outcry related not the facts of what is possible, but:

a) to your explicit advocation of a criminal fraud, and
b) to the simplistic listing of the illusory benefits of doing so.

It would be naive to think youngsters who read this do not take what is written by "the experienced" members as gospel. The fact is that as a moderator, you should be well aware of this fact and the impressionability of youngsters.

That you are seemingly not aware of that has lost you a huge amount of respect.

[Kerosine]

The fact is that as a moderator, you should be well aware of this fact and the impressionability of youngsters.

You are seemingly unaware of my previous post.

YES - The advice/opinion given by WWW could be taken too literally.

NO - The people that are in a position to do this are 'grown-ups' and have 'common sense'. If not then good luck to them and they will learn the hard way, if it's from opinions in this forum, a TV advert, the list goes on. Young impressionables can't become bankrupt!

Why don't we discuss the topic rather than discussing WWW's parenting ability?

Dave

[wbryce]

Interesting thread and very interesting that WWW's playing devils advocat!

I see your logic WWW and your points are valid. The option should be considered if your in a pickle after flight training not before it IMO.

This thread should be a good insight as to why wannabes shouldn't dive head first into loans to achieve their dream career. Loans are great, especially the CDL, but 50K plus loans are just plain stupid, especially when you consider bonding/FI rating and TRs now.

Certainly a situation I would avidly avoid.

[v6g]

I don't see anything wrong with WWW's suggestions. Those are the rules of the game - you play by the rules - so what if you're manipulating the rules to your advantage - that's what I call "Entrepreneurial spirit".

If anyone is at fault, morally or legally, it's the Government for i) allowing financial service companies to lend such large amounts of unsecured money and ii) allowing bankruptees to be discharged so quickly and lightly.

I don't see any stigma attached to someone with a free £87k license and bankrupt for a couple of years.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Flying training lends itself so well to a planned bankruptcy plan.

I can't think of another way of blatantly spending £50k inside of 18 months on something that has no monetary value to the baliffs but which you can stand in front of a judge afterwards and make a reasonable case for why and and how you spent it and planned to repay it.

Its the perfect crime.

And lets not be coy here, crime it is.

But if you want a PPRuNe hosted version of the moral maze then lets talk about that pint of milk you once stole of a doorstep as a student. Or apple scrumping. Or accepting a partially used car parking ticket from a kind stranger.

And then lets move on to the morality of the money lenders so willing and forceful in their sale of easy credit to people who in years gone by would never have been allowed to get themselves in such debt troubles.

And then lets stop being hysterical about something which has already been done and is being done now by perfectly rational and perfectly nice Wannabes.

The simple truth is that you can't construct a decent argument why my hypothetical 22yr old son and I don't engage a planned bankruptcy plan and save circa £90k. OTHER than to play the morality card and shriek its illegal.

Which I don't directly contest.

Cheers

WWW

[chrisbl]

No - I stand by the logic of using planned bankruptcy to fund your basic training.
You use the loans and credit to pay for your exams and flight training and THEN go bankrupt at the end when you are unfortunately unemployed and seeking work.
The period of bankruptcy lasts 2 years. After which all normal credit and mortgage products are open to you. You are not allowed to become a company director or to be an accountant. Big deal.
WWW

Borrowing money with the intent not to pay it back is a criminal matter. It is obtaining money by deception and comes under the Theft Act. In much the same way someone gets a job with lies on the CV. People are being prosecuted now.

Thats not a smart thing to do and I suspect that lenders will be less inclined to take a borrower going bankrupt on the chin if they have any suspicions that there was no intention of repayment.

So advocating that as a way forward is pretty stupid.

The other consequence of rampent bankruptcy is that those borrowers who choose not to go bankrupt end up paying for those who do in higher interest rates, in that sense WWW you advocate anti social behaviour. But then this is symptomatic of todays selfish culture where people must have what they want (including pilot training) because they do and hang the consequences. The shell suit society except these have gold bars on their shoulders.

It does not give you much faith in the ethical, moral or judgement capacity of people who swan around the sky at 500mph with 200-300 lives in their hands.

[pilotow1]

Hi All,
Been a while. I've been breedin' for JESUS!!!
Got two small greys, Spitfire and Typhoon.
Not quite TWIT-TWOO more EAK-EAK at the moment.

Anyway, let's get back on subject....

If any of you have read this thread right from the beginning, I was a IP (Insolvency Practitioner) in a past life, so no this subject well.

Let's clear up a few things first...
1 Yes, you can have a Bank account while Bankrupt.
2 Yes, you can run a business, as a sole trader (not mistook for a soul-trader - James Brown RIP), Partnee in a partnership (but must let the others know) and even as a company director in a limited company (very rare but possible as you need DTI permission).

I will now respond to a few postees.

Bealzebub,
HSBC have stopped funding pilot finance (except for OAT?) for one reason only - the investment is not worth the return. £100,000 for a salary of £30000 before tax for the next 5 years. They haven't stopped Doctor finance, Why? Because their salaries have increased and ours haven't.
Banks are now really only interested in £100,000 + P.A. , the rest can go to the credit unions and community banks. This is not far fetched either. In Oz, HSBC you have to have a monthly income/deposit of $AU2000 per month to have a basic account.

Re-Heat, Chartered Accountant. Well, What can I say? You are a hypocrite.
Chartered Accountants are the biggest crooks in this country. It's fine for professional to use the "system" to avoid paying tax. What's the figure? £10 BILLION every year not paid due tax holes exploited by the likes of you. Robbing, every chid of a proper education, a well funded NHS, a proper military with equipment and you have the self-opinionated, obnoxious belief that you can pontificate to US mear mortals about the rights and wrongs of Bankruptcy! What absolute cheek.
I had to deal with your "professionally" compiled Bu11$hit, called accounts. Christ, it makes me angry.
What is wrong if the small man in the street wants to use the system to better one's self? What's the difference? I bet the CEO of Barclays didn't give $hit when he got his bonuses and pay of £26 million, while sacking thousands and exporting jobs to India, at the behest of so called professional like yourself.

[mad_jock]

Although a planned method of bankruptcy to fund your training doesn't sit well with me.

Those that have signed up for courses in good faith and not had the breaks that some of us have. I really can see WWW's point of view.

Half the reaction of the financial service guys is I think a gut one. Its a bit like when you suggest that your not going to pay into a pension but instead pay the same money into your morgage and pay it off 15 years early. The give you a look and start talking technical speak. When the question is asked about the fact that by completing 15 years early you will save 80k in interest and your pension won't have even half of that in, it in the same time, you get a scowl. Thats 5% of service charges lost to the industry for good.

If everyone went for bankruptcy it would drag thier very comfy existence into doudt.

I know a couple of folk who have been zero'd by various methods. One had loans out from the natwest of over 60k unsecured. Strangly enough the natwest wrote off the amount due when the bankruptcy card was played. That was without being declared. As part of the "deal" a gagging order was applied. I think the banks don't want people to declare, the current system makes them lots of money for not alot of work. If there was a surge in people declaring it put pressure on the powers that be to regulate them in a manner that would effect profits.

I would agree with WWW and his pretend son. Only problem I could see is if and when you did get a job and a bonding loan is required you are knackard.
The up shot is that it dosn't effect the individual seriously from what I can tell. You may have to pay slighly more in the future for some services but nothing like what has been written off. The Banks are greedy swines and 3 years down the line and your on 40k a year and wanting a morgage they will sell you one. After a couple of years paying on time you will be able to transfer onto a better deal.

People that will be effected is the people who are 2 years behind them in training system. When the availabilty of money dry's up. Which to be honest would be no bad thing in my opinion.

[Maltese Falcon]

The moralisers on this thread really winding me up. I mean who is really going to lose sleep over depriving a bank of £50k? To defraud a bank or credit card company intentionally may not be legal but I would say that morally this course of action would elevate you to the choirs of angels on high. If banks and other lenders want their customers to play nice, they should try leading by example. If you have not been in financial trouble before, you will not know what I mean.

I borrowed the money to fund my training in good faith and it was my misfortune to have completed my training 3 months prior to 9/11. However, the course of action that WWW mentions or possibly advocates (oh my god!!!) sounds reasonable to me. It may not be legal but nor is driving your car at 35mph in a 30mph zone and I know which I think is the more anti social crime.

[Stick Flying]

Maltese Falcon.

I would suggest if people talking of doing things legally (i.e. following the laws of the land) winds you up, perhaps you have picked the wrong profession. I find it amazing you put those who follow the rules on a level below those who gain advantage by deception. To praise these practises in an almost religious manner smacks of an anti-authority trait which could be cause for concern. Where would this attitude end. "Oh cat I minima is only there for the moralists".

I sympathise with those who complete their training at a time when things slow or who have a run of bad luck when job hunting. And if bankruptcy is the only way out, this is not a slur on them and I wholeheartidly support that course of action. But to deliberately enter into a fraudulent course of action is despicable.

Sadly the world is a changing place. It is a stark realisation where we are headed as a race, when on a public forum, illegal actions are flouted as being `right`and those who want to follow the rules are branded "moralisers".

I too do not like the amount of bank charges but with more like you about, these are only set to get worse.

Signed
Proud to be a "Moraliser"

[Bealzebub]

The moralisers may well be winding you up, presumably because you dont want to hear what doesn't suit you. That is not uncommon generally but certainly it is a widely held view when somebody is attempting to justify what they know is wrong.

It doesn't bother me too much if a person wants to borrow money with the intention of not paying it back.

In much the same way it doesn't bother me much if you want to steal food from a shop because you are hungry.

It doesn't bother me if you want to drive through a built up area in excess of the speed limit because you are late.

It doesn't bother me if you want to claim unemployment benefits whilst you are actually working.

It doesn't bother me if you want to make a false claim for compensation because you a bit hard up.

None of these things bother me, because they have such a negligable impact on my daily life, and because I do not know you. If that were not the case then I would be greatly bothered.

The virtual parents out there can hypothesize to their hearts content, but in real world 1.1, ethics and morals, values and behaviour are something that you spend a lot of time trying to impart on your offspring sometimes with very limited success.

It has already been repeated many times that people do find themselves in trouble sometimes for a variety of reasons that may or may not be within their control. Maturity is in part a combination of your ethics, experience, behaviour and character. Maturity is also an important attribute in what an employer (certainly in aviation) is looking for. If a potential employer suspects or perceives such weakness it is unlikely to be a point in your favour ? As far as bankruptcy is concerned, some employers will run a credit check. I have seen this on application forms for overseas companies (the latest growth markets.)

It doesn't bother me too much if you want to defraud banks, insurance companies or anybody else. Some of the nit wit ideas on here are in fact little more than passing entertainment. I was however surprised to see the forum moderator promoting such ideas.

[hixton]

Its all down to attitudes an opinions, and that is what gets you the job!

I know the kinda people I would rather sit next to for 8 hrs a day, someone with a bit of spirit, and I think you'll find that it is people like WWW that ARE in flying jobs, and the stuck up `do gooders` that are mostly wanabees.

Screw the banks! They will screw you whenever they get the chance.

[Stick Flying]

hixton,

For someone who seems to have just started your airline career you sound like you could possibly have the classic disorder of 'Thinking you know more than you really do'.

Perhaps try waiting more than 5 mins before you make outrageous assumptions on the best type of personality's required for crew members.

Or maybe I am completely wrong and we should be calling you Dr hixton.

[hixton]

Errrr no..... The Doctor doesnt know much, but he does know what kind of people he likes. I dont seem to gel too well with all the strict extremists.

[Bealzebub]

Its all down to attitudes an opinions, and that is what gets you the job!
I know the kinda people I would rather sit next to for 8 hrs a day, someone with a bit of spirit, and I think you'll find that it is people like WWW that ARE in flying jobs, and the stuck up `do gooders` that are mostly wanabees.
Screw the banks! They will screw you whenever they get the chance.

No it isn't, it is about experience, deportment, maturity and overall presentation that is what might get you the job. If after an interview we start to discuss your "attitude" and "opinions" it will mean you stood out for all the wrong reasons.

You may well "know the sort of people you would rather sit next to for 8 hours a day", but who cares ? You are the wannabee applicant. It matters if the interviewer would rather sit next to you for (8 hours ?) more like 12 hours and sometimes much more. How will you be, sitting next to a variety of people ? Do you have the flexibility, stability of character, self discipline, and maturity to deal with both the routine and the extreme ?

After 30 years in the industry I have never actually known anyone to get through an interview with the "I know who I gel with and want to fly with" and "screw the banks" type attitude, but who knows maybe it will work for you ?

[Grass strip basher]

Hixton for someone who doesn't like extremists you seem to have quite extreme views....

Pay back your loan = loser
Default on your loan = general all round good egg who I'd like to sit next to everyday for 8 hours

:rolleyes:
I have read a lot of c*ap on Pprune over the last couple of years about getting into debt but your post I think probably takes the biscuit.... congratulations (I suspect a wind-up)! :ok:

[boogie-nicey]

I am somewhat taken aback by WWW commnets too, he's normally someone who I'd listen to but on this occassion well let's say the jury's out.....

Bankruptcy is no laughing matter and the best people to advise you on that are financial professionals not WWW. However in this day and age bankruptcy has become a product in itself like life insurance, investments, etc and as such is advertised in a glossed up manner. It is being marketed to people in the same way as a seductive and desirable new car and the public are being duped into think "ah bankruptcy" my new 21st century flexible friend.

As for WWW having the opportunity to air his opinions I'd say he has every right to do so. If people don't agree with it fine but let him and others have their say and don't berate him for doing so.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Lets just recap here:

Its easy to get £50k of debt to pay for your license.

Its easy to declare bankruptcy and its easy to persuade the judge you thought you could pay it back.

Its easy to live the 2 years under bankruptcy and then its very very easy to get on with the rest of your life.

Its easy to get a job as a bankrupt as they won't ask you about it won't care and neither will anyone you work with.

Its easy to live with the shame.


Morally wrong and illegal yes. But you set your own morals and the illegality lies in whether or not you intended to pay back the money and only you can know that.

Perhaps if you did it and then spent the 18 months of bankruptcy doing volunteer work in Africa then Gods scales might be rebalanced and you'll be issued with your Pearly Gates pass when the time comes.

Interesting discussion though.

Cheers

WWW

[Bealzebub]

Perhaps if you see the word easy everyday, you start to believe that everything is ? I would suggest that there are some very real consequences beyond simply the moral ones that your posting suggests.

Voluntary work abroad, and entering the kingdom of heaven might well help someone redress the balance, however most people on here have a a more mundane interest in advice that helps them become a good professional pilot. :)

[Lucifer]

I suspect that if some of the more reckless above knew a modicum of how the financial system worked, then the selfish action of illegally declaring bankruptcy would result in you being shunned.

The financial system is one big circle:

- Defaulting prevents loans being extended to others in the future
- Shareholders of the banks are defrauded
- Shareholders are typically fund managers
- Your pensions invest in the fund managers
- Your pension ultimately is defrauded as a result

No, I hear you say, these are individuals with individual situation - just as Bealzebub says - people think that one person defrauding the system is of little consequence. Unfortunately this is ludicrously incorrect.

Consider that most benefit fraud is small, and then consider what the total estimated fraud and the net loss to the government is. Then consider how mch your tax could be reduced if that fraud was eliminated...I'll leave the calculation to someone else, but you will be astounded.

Now take a step back to the bankruptcy quandry. Aside from the illegality, as we have already established who on the board has morals or not, add it all up, consider why the bank charges borrowing rates so high to cover for defaults of others, and consider what the total loss over the whole system equates to in terms of your future pension.

Banking is a competitive industry - retail banking profits are at margins below those of the likes of Ryanair, and yet just because you have to pay for the risk that you present to the bank's shareholders, you consider them thieves? I just don't understand this attitude.

WWW

If you consider theft from a corporation to be angelic, you are totally misguided and have no apparent understanding of the financial system.

I wonder if you consider petty theft from your company also to be angelic? easyJet too are a large corporation with large profit margins. Where do you draw the line.

Or are you simply a crook at heart?

[Lucifer]

Morally wrong and illegal yes. But you set your own morals and the illegality lies in whether or not you intended to pay back the money and only you can know that.
But the point is that we judge you as a collective society, and you have been found to be immoral.

[tescoapp]

But yet none of you judge the morals of lending 60k to a 21 year old kid who has limited experence of working. No experence at all of working in thier chosen career apart from what they have gleaned from PPrune.

The simple act of allowing them the loan has far reaching exposure to not only the person but also the loved ones of that person. The chap who has the 45K against his mums house. Thats the familys home on the line, if it all goes wrong that is someones retirement spent in poverty instead of what was planned.

Don't get me wrong there is moral questions about planning to defraud the banks to fund your training.

But I have more of a moral problem with certain schools marketing. Also the fact that the banks are willing to put individuals in the situation which is risky at the outset and subject to the whim of global politics and so many other factors.

Nobody questions the fact that people are prevented from commiting suicide. But nobody questions the fact that people are being allowed to commit financial suicide which not only effects them but also there family. And the only reason why it is done is to make a profit.

[Bealzebub]

But yet none of you judge the morals of lending 60k to a 21 year old kid who has limited experence of working. No experence at all of working in thier chosen career apart from what they have gleaned from PPrune.

Not so. Some of us would seriously question such morality. However the truth is banks do not generally (as individual entities) lend such large sums to people who they think have an inability to repay them. They are businesses, and there is no profit in lending money to individuals who do not honour their contracts. As for the "chap who has 45K against his mums home, you have to remember that in fact it is the mum who has the debt as either guarantor, co-signatory or as principle borrower. This really comes down to responsibility as in so many walks of life. Part of the process of becoming an adult is surely to learn that you are responsible for your actions. There comes a point in life when mummy and daddy will not be there to tell you that you cannot help yourself to everything in the sweet shop. It is not the sweet shop owners responsibility to tell an adult that they shouldnt be tempted by what is on offer.

As far as it relates to this topic, responsibility is a most definite requirement for the prospective airline pilot. If you cannot demonstrate and accept that responsibility then you have a very real disadvantage.
In fact people are not "prevented from commiting suicide", you hope that they have the direction, common sense and self preservation instinct to prevent themselves from taking such action. This applies just as much to their finances. Of course banks lend money for profit. It is actually the greed of the "I want it now" generation that is the real problem ?

[Grass strip basher]

Bealzebub :D :D :D
I think your comment hits the nail right on the head:ok:

[BabyBear]

Come on now Bealzebub,

Why should we expect individuals to accept responsibility for their own decisions and actions when it goes wrong?

I think you seem to have missed a few key points:

It's the banks fault they want to be airline pilots
It's the banks fault they borrowed the money
It's the industires fault they didn't get a job
and why shouldn't the rules be different for them, is it not true pilot's are above most others?
and of course it is 2007, didn't you know self respect is old hat.

[Bealzebub]

Of course BabyBear. :ouch: ;)

[tescoapp]

But the banks do lend out such large amounts of money. They also extend credit in vast amounts way over what the person could afford.

I have a standing argument with my credit card bank every time they decide that I am a bad customer by clearing it every month. If it was up to them I would have a 10k credit limit. No thanks the 1k limit will do, if my CC was cloned all I would be down would be 1k instead of 10k. I have had to cancel the card twice to get them to keep it at the 1k limit.

The banks make profit from fraud they fight like hell to make you pay for it. If you get your personal information knicked and a loan taken out in your name they will sort it after alot of fighting, but they will "suggest" its not worth informing the police. Why because they don't want statistics being available to justify them being regulated so they can't provided financial suicide levels of credit.

I am quite sure that if I wanted I could get 50k spread over 5 cards if I so wished in the space of about 3 weeks.

And I do agree you should be responsable for your own actions. But taking for example another example from our nanny state. You are not now allowed to do your own electrics in your house without alot of ball ache. Number of deaths per year in the low teens if that. Number of lives affected by to much credit must be thousands.

They won't do anything about it because it keeps the economy turning creating more tax revenue. It also allows them more control over peoples spending with the use of interest rate changes. For myself a 0.5% increase in the base rate means 20 quid change to my morgage repayments nothing else. Those with loans up to thier ears its a 3 figure sum off thier disposable income.

[BabyBear]

tescoapp

and who signed the papers for the loans up to their ears?????????????

seems to me an increasing %age of the population wants to be nannied so they can blame everything on someone else!

If you borrow £60K for training then you are responsible for repaying it.........simple as that!

[Superpilot]

Loans, interest, and bankruptcy. Good job I'm saving/saved before I commenced my flying training.

Interest rate rises cannot be controlled by us mere mortals. The fact of the matter is they are controlled by people they affect the least. Does it make any sense then for anyone to take out a loan of staggering proportions (the likes of which Oxford and FTE students are seduced into doing) not knowing what the exact repayments are going to be?

Whilst WWW's idea of planned bankruptcy is shocking to hear I understand his mindset, it's not a moral way out but a practical way out. On the whole lets see how many moral people/organisations are involved on the route to becoming an airline pilot shall we?

-The Airlines (BA, BMi etc) who will only accept a pilot who has been through a very expensive (in terms of price, and lost earnings) category of flight training. That’s Integrated Training Lucifer and Re-Heat!

-The Flight School who charges £60,000 for the flight training

-The bank who has virtually no hesitation in handing a young pubescent a £60,000 loan. Considering that the most this person would’ve ever saved would probably be less than a 1/10th of that!

-The regulatory body which charges obscene amounts for the luxury of sitting required exams and for issuing a paper license.

Of course no one needs to take out a loan if they can't repay it, but then the dream dies.

[tescoapp]

You have a fair point about who signs for it.

But its borderline fraud in my opinion.

The banks say here you go I am giving you money which you can spend but its putting you in a difficult position.

And you have a wannabie who says well if they are stupid enough to give me it and I can't afford it when after a couple of years things don't work out so be it.

Both are on the same dodgy moral grounds. The pilot to be is taking a risk and so is the bank.

I can understand why the financial types are so bitter towards this method it completely screws the system up which effects thier profits. But yet again the system allows them to put people in this situation. They can't have it both ways.

BTW I don't think the banks are totally at fault for letting wannabie pilots into the trap of high loans to fund training.

The CAA has alot to answer for with its lack of information which it gives out.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_LRIssues_2004_05.pdf

The stats are hard to interprete with no key and also don't give the information required.

Just from a causal glance it appears that nearly 20% of pilots trained that year won't be flying multi-crew. Thats 200 pilots a year being added to the pool of unemployed pilots.

I did ask a tame CAA person about it. And got told it was all to do with commercial sensitivity. It had the potential not only to close quite a few schools but also to completely screw up the crewing of the UK airlines in times of expansion. I did ask about the fredom of information act and getting the data. He said unless you had an insiders knowledge of the CAA files you would just get an information not stored reply.

[boogie-nicey]

Let's say at 21years you have little or no money and of course no assets. Make a gameplan to work hard for 5 years in order to earn the money and then you begin training at 26 not too late at all....

Alternatively work for let's see ..... 3 years (seems about right) turn 24 years of age and then supplement with a smaller unsecured loan of £15,000. Still a big responsibility but far more manageable with or without an aviation career.

... And of course work 1-2 years full time and a go modular with a supplemental loan.

Don't go around dragging your family into your financial affairs because they'll suffer for your foolishness especially near retirement. It's your responsibility to inform them of the reaslistic risk factors involved.

[Bealzebub]

The banks say here you go I am giving you money which you can spend but its putting you in a difficult position.
And you have a wannabie who says well if they are stupid enough to give me it and I can't afford it when after a couple of years things don't work out so be it.
Both are on the same dodgy moral grounds. The pilot to be is taking a risk and so is the bank.



No, The banks are selling you money. It is a commercial transaction. They do not say they are "giving" you anything. If the wannabee or anyone else thinks they are being "given" money then they must be stupid or just simply greedy. They will also be required to sign a contract which will spell out the terms to them before they become committed. it would be wise to read it and understand it.

Once again it comes down to responsibility, if you haven't got it or don't want it, then you are probably barking up the wrong tree in pusuing this particular career.

[tescoapp]

Well said boogie.

I must admit the family bit is the worst bit of this sorry situation.
Those with enough financial savy to realise what the risks are or can afford to pay it won't get suckered into the trap. And the ones that it really will destroy will be the ones that unfortunatly get into problems.

BTW I am the bane of my Banks advisor's life she freely admits now that they make a loss on handling my cash. Every time she suggests a new product that will make my life easier she always has to admit that it will expose me to more risk. This has been a long drawn out argument ever since she announced that at 21 I really shouldn't have a Cyril the Squirrel super savers account.

And just to add it is my career and my training was payed for without a loan. And I am sitting here with only a morgage outstanding, chucking as much money at it as I can afford. So that I can escape the noose of these bastard banks.

Bad choice of words it is a transaction but also one which risk is taken on by both parties. If the bank is stupid enough to sell a product which can't realistically be fulfilled then tough.

[chrisbl]

Just because loans are offered does not mean that you have to take them.

Much the same way with drugs. Just because they are readily available does not mean you have to indulge.

It seems few people these days want to take responsibility for their actions.

[BabyBear]

'The banks say here you go I am giving you money which you can spend but its putting you in a difficult position'


'But yet again the system allows them to put people in this situation. They can't have it both ways'

The Banks don't put the borrower in a difficult position, the borrower put themselves in a difficult position by accepting the loan. As a smoker does by smoking or a thief does when he steals.

The system does not put people in the situation they do it to themsleves. Accordingly they did not do it to you!

The risks are known upfront and if they are not acceptable then alternative employment is always an option.

How about those that risk all setting up a business or those who simply borrow unaware they will soon be unemployed?

[Davaar]

Basically done everything financially I can do to get that oh-so-elusive first airline job. ......... Any ideas ?

I have just noticed this thread and I have not read all of it. I am not sure where you are located and I have no idea what laws govern your situation. Perhaps my suggestion has already been made. That all said, you should consult a good credit counsellor such as a chartered accountant specialising in bankruptcy practice. It may be possible in your jurisdiction to reach a composition with creditors, in which you (and by "you" I mean your consultant) reports to all your creditors, lays the facts before them, says you are a decent chap who is sinking, you'd like to pay but can't, and can you all reach a deal. They may settle of 50% or whatever rather than nothing. The consultant will be appointed a trustee to receive from you and distribute to creditors pro rata an amount agreed monthly. You will probably have to cut up all credit cards, and life will not be as pleasant as it might be.
There will probably be a time limit to all of this, though.

I will add, with the greatest respect to the good folks at PPRuNe, myself included, that this is not the place to go for professional advice in a matter like this. Over and again in my career I have had to untangle messes made on the advice of the frankly ignorant, just as I am ignorant of the facts in your case ("I went to this young lawyer, just graduated, and he did the whole thing for $250.00. Fantastic!". Yes, and it will cost you $5,000.00 to unscramble the omelet that the boy fried up).

If you are as deep in the hole as you say, you need the best advice you can get, not the cheapest.

[tescoapp]

The risks are known upfront

Yes they are. More so by the banks than the customers.

Which is why the banks have nothing to moan about if someone plays the bankrupt card. Its part of the risk they take.

To be honest I really hope that lots of wannabies do go bankrupt and put this practise to bed.

By far the most sensible suggestion is the one above.

The only other advice is don't get into debt in the first place.

[ManfredvonRichthofen]

Screw the banks! They will screw you whenever they get the chance.



Unfortunately if you try to screw the banks, the only person that will really be bending over and dropping them is you. That is not someone with "spirit". That is "idiot".

I would STRONGLY advise anyone considering declaring themselves bankrupt to fully research the matter. The posts on here re how easy it is to get on with your life afterwards seem to be written by people with little actual knowledge. It will cause serious disruption to your life.

There are many, much easier ways of obtaining cash, many of which are more "legal" than setting out with the intent to bankrupt yourself.

[Sunray Minor]

Maltese Falcon,

I'm intrigued that you consider yourself to have "messed up" and that this justifies bankruptcy. Surely, by all accounts, a poorly paid instructing job and a TP job should the horizon that all potential ATPL graduates are aiming for?

You have an airline job, many people's dream and you have undertaken its required training - training which rightly incurs a very large cost.

But now, with all due respect, you have had your cake and eaten it too - training for free (well, not for free, we have all now paid for it for you), you have the job and as you say yourself you now live comfortably.

Why shouldn't I go rack up debts a fraction of the cost of an ATPL course on frivolous activites and then likewise declare myself bankrupt? What gives you the right to justify clearing your training debts especially when you have then got your foot on the airline ladder? Would you deny the same right to someone who racked up the same debts on women, gambling and fast cars?

I understand bankruptcy where a business has gone under and you have already lost everything, but by all accounts, far from losing anything you now have it all - and have topped that off by never having to repay the expense of what got you there.

[Sunray Minor]

Re-Heat,

As much as I find WWW's proposition abhorant, he is logically correct. The flaw is that the law is so lax in this area.

For myself it would clearly be beneficial. Hell, I could go for an integrated course tomorrow as funding and my ability to repay is all that stopped me. I have no house, car or serious assets to lose and have no intention of starting a business anytime in the next 2-6 years.

That said, I wouldn't do it on principal. Bankruptcy in this kind is no morally different from theft.

[Sunray Minor]

Screw the banks! They will screw you whenever they get the chance.

That would be the same bank that loaned you £?0,000 and told you exactly what was required to pay it back?

Screw the bankrupts I say - they screw me when they get the chance and increase my premiums.

[Kerosine]

Ok this is getting boring now guys.

Lets see, we have the do gooders and the opportunists.

We can argue who we should be, who we have the right to be, but why?

The system as a whole RELIES on some of us being do gooders AND some being opportunists.

If we were all do gooders, the laws would not protect us from the true minority of criminals, and the government would have no real need to creat complex laws that stop you being exploited by the financial institutes.

If we were all opportunists we would live in a George Orwell BB state, we would be controlled, freedom would be associated with anti-social behaviour.

The 'system' has to have a healthy balance to allow our society to progress, but remain stable. How many millions of jobs/lives are based around fraud prevention and security in financial institutes? lots

We can see that both points are perfectly viable, no-one here is particularly 'wrong' as we know it is never black and white, just be happy knowing you all fit together to make society what it is.

In conclusion, if WWW wants to do his thing, know that it's wrong in the eyes of the law, but know without people pushing the system we stagnate.

Cheers (I need a beer :ugh:)

Dave

ps, I should be working....

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well I do like a heated debate - its been very useful in exploring an issue of great interest to the average young wannabe - thanks for everyones contribution.

Yes it is immoral and it is theft. No argument and no desire to enter into a protracted Moral Maze debate.

But it is very easy to do and very easy to get away with it.

So many will.

Cheers

WWW

[Kerosine]

www ... kerrosine ... The (deb)A(te)-team

I'm getting on that plane fool.

Dave

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Quit Your Jibba Jabba, Fool! As Mr T might say.


My position is clear. The Authorities have made bankruptcy painless and easy. The Financial Service industry have made borrowing £50k for a 22 yr old laughably easy.

The two simply mean that many Wannabes will make the logical decision to follow a planned bankrupcy route. It has been achieved already several times and is being pursued by many.

This means for Joe 'Honest' Wannabe he is now up against people who have free CPL/IRs and can afford a £20k type rating with ease - thus jumping ahead.

So if you chose to be moral and upright you will be crushed in the stampede and left behind to repay your debts whilst never being able to get an airline job because you cannot afford the type rating expense... catch 22.

Vicious nasty greedy dishonest dog-eat-dog world we live in YES. Ability to change it.. NO.

Cheers

WWW

[mad_jock]

As usual the pilots that think outside the box, don't give a ****about
anyone else, will see, over come and will get the jobs.
There are lots of pilots out there who have taken the piss with everyone and anyone. And are quite happy flying the line still taking the piss with everything and anything they can get away with.
Alot of you don't understand that alot of CP's if they found out that you have managed to beat the system would actually be impressed.
As WWW say's it's a dirty industry, there are very few gentlemen these days.
There are more than few pilots out there that live in terror that they will get a tax inspection before the 7 years is up.

[Lucifer]

Of course no one needs to take out a loan if they can't repay it, but then the dream dies.
That is half the point - dreams must have some grounding in reality, and if one cannot take on the required responsibility and simply keeps their head in the clouds, then they are surely not the sort that we require in the flight deck.

WWW would of course claim that this is a responsibility of a different type - to willingly defraud the banks to ensure your future - I cannot see how that squares with theiving the dreams of others through increased rates and refusal to extent loans to other pilots wannabes in the future.

[chrisbl]

I cannot see how that squares with theiving the dreams of others through increased rates and refusal to extent loans to other pilots wannabes in the future.

Well said.

I guess that if an airline decides to take the easy way out of meetings its liabilities when things get a bit tough and chooses insolvency - maybe leaving a pension fund in deficit or employees with no redundancy pay, the first to complain would likely be the planned bankruptcy lot.

What goes around comes around.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Lucifer, WWW would of course claim that this is a responsibility of a different type - to willingly defraud the banks to ensure your future - I cannot see how that squares with theiving the dreams of others through increased rates and refusal to extent loans to other pilots wannabes in the future.

No I wouldn't claim that. What it is is getting a free CPL/IR via fraud using planned bankruptcy from the outset. I call a spade a flippin shovel me.

As for thieving the dreams of others - that is hyperbole. I don't think a couple of bad debts on unsecured personal finance by a few thousand young pilots is going to really impact on the bottom line of say HSBC's Bad Debt provision. And we are not talking about loans to other pilots in the future as all of this would be unsecured debt lent to a teenager to buy a car, fund his college study, blow on a credit card. The banks wouldn't know nor care where the funds have been spent. Every Wannabe in the land could do it in perpetuity and they would still form a tiny percentage of the number of personal bankruptcy cases filed every year.

The ONLY downside of it happening long term is that the authorities could change the bankruptcy laws in such a way as to allow them to deprive the bankrupt of the privildges and advantages accrued though monies spent on the credit cards in question. That is to say they could take your license off you.

But thats not any where near happening or even thought about.

In the meantime a planned bankruptcy is the perfect crime waiting to happen. And it has. And it will.

Cheers

WWW (someone who slogged and saved and funded his entire training from the age of 17)

[Re-Heat]

I don't think a couple of bad debts on unsecured personal finance by a few thousand young pilots is going to really impact on the bottom line of say HSBC's Bad Debt provision.
How wrong, how totally and utterly wrong that assumption is.

If only you knew what level of details the banks analyse their risks by market and consumer, you would not only be shocked, but you would also know exactly why virtually no bank lends to pilot trainees any more.

Trust someone who has seen the operations in the background at a level far removed from the high street branch...


So, has anyone declared bankruptcy since the last verbal spat this thread produced? Care to embellish your story, anonymously?

[clairnshane]

I am currently starting to process of going bankrupt, I have all my forms from the Courts, but i am just wondering, if i have forgotten about any debts and i dont add them to the form when it goes to court.... what would happen???
Would i still be liable to pay the debt or would i just phone the Insolvency and tell them i have another debt which i didnt add to my form? Any help would be brill.
Thanks, Clair x

[Orvil]

clairnshane,
Hi,
Put every debt on the form "statement of affairs" DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES TRY TO CON THE INSOLVENCY SERVICE !! They will go back through all your bank accounts including loans (Banks, Next , Littlewoods, even approach the DVLA to see how many cars you've owned in the past).
Now if you forget about a debt( If that's possible) and tell the OR later ( say a few weeks) they will just add it on.
However, if you ignore a debt, the creditor can demand immediate payment and then force you to go Bankrupt twice! So your Bankruptcy will last upto 8 years or even longer.

Best advice -put everything down on the form. You'll save yourself a lot of hassle.

[spitfire_007]

:ugh:..................

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

http://www.creditaction.org.uk/debtstats.htm


Almost 300 people are becoming insolvent each day. The number of UK personal insolvencies continues to increase with 29,804 individuals entering into bankruptcy or an IVA (Individual Voluntary Arrangement) during the final quarter of 2006.

The figures represent an increase of 7.1% on the previous quarter, reaching a total of 107,288 for 2006, up almost 60% from the previous year's figure of 67,584.

=======

Thats an annual increase of 60% in insolvency. :oh: A chunk of which will be IVAs rather than full on bankruptcy.

There is a house price crash under way in the US and its just started in Ireland. With interest rates up 4 times in a year with more to come there will be one here. The stock market is down and looking shaky. Its been 18 years since the 1989 Boom/Bust... ( http://tinyurl.com/ynk7qn )


Meanwhile Iran is months away from getting a nuclear bomb and the US has placed two carrier battle groups in the gulf. Open skies threatens to become a reality creating great upset in the London transatlantic market and today Gordon will probably add more woe to the tax on air travel.


The market for pilots at the moment is very good.

Where we might be a year from now is less certain.

Be careful before taking on massive new debt.

Good luck(!),


WWW

[Grass strip basher]

WWW are you moonlighting as a Daily Mail journalist??....

Irish housing market crashing?? eh??
Stock market crashing??... its only 3% of a 5-6 year high.. crash??
Iran months away from getting a nuclear bomb??

Open skies may hit BA but how is that going to reduce demand for transatlantic travel??

I assume your tongue is firmly placed in your cheek??
Agree you would have to be nuts to get heavily into debt to get your little blue book but please....

[Telstar]

WWW , I've been a big fan of what you say for a long time, I remember reading your posts pre-flight training, as a flight student and now as a Airline F/O. Pretty much all of what you said turned out to be true. I am a particular fan of your writing style which is why I keep "tabs" on you and the likes of PPRuNe Towers, Scroggs etc.

You really let yourself down with that last post though. Where you are getting a crash/recession in the Irish market from I do not know? Nothing could be further from the truth right now, the pesimists have been saying that in Ireland for years.

I am all for being brutal with wannabees about the risks they face, but that last post was like something straight out of the Sun Newspaper!

[v6g]

- can't see anything profoundly wrong with WWW's comments.

There's a lot of significant risks to the world economy building right now - arguably more than has been in the last little while.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I can show you hundreds of houses in the Republic which have had to lower their asking prices just this week. Go take a look at http://www.thepropertypin.com/forum/

House prices are already crashing in the US. Stock markets are lurching all over the place and Mr Greenspan is muttering recession in his retirement.

Open skies may be a good thing, it may be a bad thing but its sure going to be moderate to severe turbulence as it shakes itself out.

As for the Middle East.. well.

We have had 3 or 4 years of good times for Wannabes. Now is a very good time. History teaches us that just as in 1990 and 2001 the times of plenty can suddenly, unexpectedly and viciously become times of famine.

I sincerely hope not. But it is what Wannabe history teaches us.

Cheers

WWW

[blobber]

hsbc have now restricted their prof study loans to 25,000 and only through (i think) cabair and oxford. I also believe that you have to have the loan secured. I had to have mine secured on my parents property. People who simply walk away from all their debt are irresponsible and ultimately selfish. Thats why we are in the situation we are in now. Loans stopping. What happens next is only the ******** with loads of money get to be pilots.

[v6g]

A global slowdown could be a blessing in disguise. The growth of all the 'nastier' aspects of the aviation industry (paying for TR & line training etc...) is all based on the easy availability of cheap money (low interest rates, sky-rocketing house prices across all industrialized nations, lax regulation).

How you, on an individual level, anticipate & maneuver yourself in preparation for any coming slowdown is the key to survival.

[Telstar]

WWW Bit of a difference between a firming up/Soft landing and a apocalyptic crash. Prices are still going up steadily, maybe not reaching the crazy asking prices of the early 2000s. I digress, this is an aviation forum after all!

I do agree that things are as good as they get for wannabees right now, and things seem to go in cycles. I think we are at the top of the sine wave.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I agree, I think we are at the top of the cycle. Which is why I wanted to point out the danger of taking out massive loans right now.

We will have to wait and see if houses in Ireland will crash. I am certain that they will and there are hundreds of houses currently on the market at seriously reduced asking prices. Something I believe never seen before in the Irish market. I am confident of at least a 20% fall over the next 24 months there. Have you actually seen the sheer numbers of nasty new build apartments around Dublin? Seen the For Sale boards starting to get cobwebs? Spoken to people stuck in long chains that just aren't moving? Its happening - but a lot of people, government and media included, are in denial right now.

Anyone with a passing interest in economics knows there are massive global imbalances, the business cycle is entering the slowdown phase, the US economy faces huge challenges which are here right now and that people in this country are in debt to an extent never before seen.


Not the best time to take out a big loan and ask the parents to remortgage their home perhaps?

But then there are lots of jobs out there and you don't want to miss the boat...

Its not easy being a Wannabe!

Cheers

WWW

[Grass strip basher]

WWW I think you are spot on in your comments about the cycle and debt but I just thought your comments were slightly less balanced than your usual tone!
Did you know the average house in Dublin costs more than a house in London!.... and the quality of the housing stock is lower. However with the governement SSIA savings schemes maturing over the next couple of months and the average payout being €18,000 consumer spending is unlikely to slow in Ireland.... stamp duty on housing is also THE issue in the upcoming Irish election which is also distorting the housing market at the moment.... but we digress.... this is an aviation forum not housepricecrash.com!

Getting a big big loan to fund your training secured on your parents house seems selfish and crazy to me given the risks involved.... but hey its all about wanting something today without having to go out and put the hours in savings to pay for your training yourself for many people.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Spot Dublin difference competition:

http://tinyurl.com/ywyk2c

http://tinyurl.com/2bfuzo


I'll tell you - a 30,000 Euro drop in asking price since Christmas. I have 412 other examples I could show you...

As has been said since time began - in this business (being a Wannabe) its all about timing. Get it right and you move smartly into an excellent job and enjoy a smooth start to a long lucrative career. Get it wrong and you spend years of misery and dissapointment before bitterly leaving the profession with nothing but regrets.

The trick, like many things, is timing. And the trick is in no small part otherwise known as luck.

Good luck,

WWW

[Telstar]

WWW Well perhaps its time to take Johnny Vegas advice and invest our money in budgies!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well from what I saw of Mr Vegas stumbling drunkenly down the streets of Cheltenham on Gold Cup I shall seek my own counsel on investment strategy!

Property and Stock Markets will not be part of it, thats for sure.

Cheers, WWW

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

My friend. As interest rates climb a large number of people tighten their belts. One of the first and easiest things to cut back on is that weekend in Barcelona, or cut one of the two annual holidays or forget skiing this year or if things are grim then flog the Villa in the sun.

Aviation tends to lead the economy both into and out of recession conditions.

I see an April rate rise in the UK is now a racing certainty..

Cheers

WWW

[v6g]

Put it this way, if I was about to write a cheque for 60k for my training - I'd sure wait until those 15 sailors get released before I sign my name.

[scroggs]

The reason why commercial aviation suffers early in any reduction in economic growth (note: no recession required!) is that it relies totally on discretionary spending by both individuals and companies. Air travel is almost never essential; it is a primarily a luxury. For the same reason, air travel is one of the last things to recover after an economic tightening. Aviation can suffer a recession even when the overall economy - national, regional or global - is still growing fairly healthily. A 5% reduction in passenger traffic is a major disaster for most airlines, which work on margins of 1 or 2% profit - and that's in the good times.

The housing market is a distraction from this discussion and has little directly to do with aviation or training except that most speculative training at the moment is funded by debt secured on property values. No conceivable recession in the UK property market will reduce values to the extent that negative equity becomes a problem for those who have currently 25% or more clear equity in their property. Those of you who have borrowed up to 80% or more of your (or your parents') property's equity to fund flying training are, in my opinion, taking more of a risk than you should. That's your choice. It is certainly not something I would do.

The fate of the 15 Royal Naval personnel in Iran is not of global economic significance. This situation has happened before and will no doubt happen again before we leave that area.

Scroggs

[Re-Heat]

For those of you who do not believe that your debt history has any effect on employment, I am currently moving roles, and as part of the security checks, this is a cut and paste of the background questions required. Based upon these, they can legally refuse employment.

Bear in mind that the places you have to accept employment without an immediate flying job may require these...


4 Are you, or have you ever been the subject of any civil proceedings, arbitration or litigation, including proceedings that have led, or may lead to a County Court Judgement (CCJ) or other judgement debts, in the United Kingdom or elsewhere? Yes No

5 Are you aware of any intention to begin such proceedings against you in the future? Yes No

6 Do you have any judgement debts (including CCJs) made under a court order still outstanding, whether in full or in part? If you have answered YES, please give details of the dates, initial amount, how much is still outstanding and circumstances involved. If still outstanding, please give details of any Repayment Plan in progress. Yes No

7 Have you ever failed to satisfy any such judgement debts within one year of the making of the order? Yes No

8 Are you, or have you ever been, he subject of any bankruptcy proceedings, or proceedings for the sequestration of your estate? Yes No

9 Have you ever entered into a deed of arrangement or an individual voluntary arrangement (or in Scotland a trust deed) or other agreement in favour of a creditor, or are you in the process of doing so?

[neilcharlton]

As a stockbroker i can give you my 2 pence worth. Aviation lags the economy in general. So if your thinking of taking out that loan in the hope of a job , you better hope the economy stays strong.

There are lots of macro economic factors which you have to take into account (it would take a long time to list them all) but by far the biggest factor could be the US .
If the US dollar continues to drop it will effect the entire globe. If people start to liquidate dollar assets quickly we are all screwed.

Having 50k debt before you get a job is a massive commitment. However i can understand why people do it. I now fly a desk and get my aviation kicks through a PPL , if you think a PPL will fore fill your dream then that might be the best bet.

[SinBin]

Fore fill? crikey hope you maths is better:)

[jobbo02]

With respect to the above post regarding the questions. legally speaking a IVA is a individual agreement and does not have to be declared to anyone even if they ask it is none of there business. And bankruptcy does not need to be declared once it is removed from your credit file unless there are terms imposed under your judgement.

[Re-Heat]

With respect to the above post regarding the questions. legally speaking a IVA is a individual agreement and does not have to be declared to anyone even if they ask it is none of there business. And bankruptcy does not need to be declared once it is removed from your credit file unless there are terms imposed under your judgement.
All of which do however have to be disclosed if employed within some fields. Don't answer the questions correctly and you forfeit the job.

Just as for spent convictions, there are still a numbers of jobs excluded for the general requirements to which you refer.

[Julian Hensey]

IVA's and Bankrupts are easily searchable here for UK people, so there is no escaping it... :{

http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/eiir/


Also article today.... Three debt management companies were censured by the advertising watchdog yesterday for making exaggerated claims over the amount customers can write off. The Advertising Standards Authority singled out Accuma, Money Debt & Credit and W3 Debt Solutions for making unsubstantiated claims about the benefits to a consumer of taking out an Individual Voluntary Arrangement, a type of insolvency agreement.
http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudications/Public/TF_ADJ_42434.htm

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I think the killer point is that no airline would dare or care to deny you a job should you be an IVA or Bankrupt.


Its just not a barrier, even if they ask the question in their application form.

Cheers

ANDY

[Orvil]

Julien,

Just looked at the Register for Bankruptcies and typed in my own name. A little bit common. Anyway, I was made Bankrupt 14 times throughout England and Wales from 1964 to 2006. Thus, being a Bankrupt even before I was born! I know you can whittle it down by DOB but why bother?

Is it really that important? Do you think HR departments are going to spend hours looking on the Register ?


There's 2 ways to look at it. Irresponsible person ie. couldn't manage his/her finances or Responsible person took the bull by the horns and sorted it out before getting stressed out and messing up on a flight.

Re-Heat, without prejudice but this is a wannabee forum. Want you've typed out is from a generic application form. ie can be used for the Finance director or the cleaner. I have seen dozens of application forms in the last 5 months, only once did it come up. It also said that it wouldn't bar you from Employment as long as you had been discharged for full 3 years. It was for the MOD. So if they're relaxed about it considering all the security implications why can't you?

I'm with WWW, Who Cares?
:}

[phillpot]

Sorry Flyboy 1818 I disagree with you over the housing market thing, I think it does have a huge bearing on economy and I think the average £55k borrowing figure is woefully low, I live in an expensive area and I dont know anyone with a mortgage of less than £150k and house prices if anything have slowed down in the last 3 years or so, which means the people who have bought in the last 7 or so years would be affected.
The average unsecured debt sits at about 17k and alot of so called wealth and therefore spending has come from people releasing equity in their homes if the housing market collapses then every thing else will follow.

[Re-Heat]

I care, because the cavalier attitudes here could get some people into huge trouble. Wannabes often have to be employed in other fields prior to landing the airline job, and anything that restricts them from doing so, particularly when the economic cycle is largely thought to be peaking, is dangerous.

WWW is correct, yes, that an airline does not care - but people need to give thought about where they will earn the pennies for the months or years prior to landing that airline job.

Want you've typed out is from a generic application form. ie can be used for the Finance director or the cleaner. I have seen dozens of application forms in the last 5 months, only once did it come up. It also said that it wouldn't bar you from Employment as long as you had been discharged for full 3 years. It was for the MOD. So if they're relaxed about it considering all the security implications why can't you?
Orvil, this is not generic at all. As I said, this is what I have completed for a role in an FSA controlled function. While the MoD do not typically require candidates to demonstrate their ability to competently manage money, many other roles do - with the growth of the finance sector, this can only be of more concern to wanabes who have a job in finance on a temporary basis to fund the training or bridge the gap to the job.

It is perfectly clear that this behaviour brought an end to the Career Development Loan system for trainee pilots. I cannot see why people here cannot see clearly that this attitude will further impact the market and raise the finance costs for all wannabes in the future as banks withdraw all funding for wannabes in all instances.

[casino335]

I know it's wrong, both morally and legally, but i can understand the logic
in taking out various loans to pay for pilot training then going bankrupt if you had to (especially if young and asset free, as said before).

Firstly, how long would it take a young person to save the massive amount of money involved to pay for a course - not every youngster going down this route is going to land a big salary job from which to save? Secondly, just say it takes around 7-10 years to save up enough (probably living off/with parents during this period), take and complete a course, only to find a long period of low pilot recruitment in the industry or being overlooked in preference to younger (early 20's) graduates of schools who have had the bank of mum and dad on side.

So say (in theory), you are young with no assets and you are absolutely hell-bent on being a pilot and nothing else - CTC, and the other sponsorships have been tried and exhausted with no success. You somehow get the loans together and take an integrated course (somehow making loan repayments as you go), complete it at say 21, and an airline take you on within months (best scenario situation). If you don't get that job, well, i guess, at least you took the risk and tried. On the other-hand, you could, as said before, work in a job you hate for say 7 years, save enough, take and complete the course only to have no success with the airlines - yes, you have have worked hard, done "the right thing" but to no avail.

I guess it's all down to the individual and how far they are prepared to go to exploit the opportunities available to them in becoming an airline pilot.

[jobbo02]

Contrary to beliefs here the MOD are very strict on there views regarding the managements of your finances. As a member the the armed forces you cannot be declared bankrupt as this is considered to bring the service into dis-repute and as such would loose you your job and possible a lot more such as pension etc. IVA however as stated has a legal clause in the insolvency act meaning it does not have to be declared nor does it stop you being a director of a company etc like a bankruptcy order does. So in the armed forces you could be in a IVA but not bankrupt. certain government departments such as MI6 do not allow you to work for them if you have ever had such financial problems. you do not have to declare it but they are allowed to check and act on it.(besides there are still many old millitary rules from days gone buy that still stand. Such as in the RAF if a service member arrives on camp by horse it is the station warrent officers duty to feed water and look after that horse till you leave).

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well as the RAF only requires 105 pilots next year I think the average Wannabe can rest easy with his bankruptcy. easyJet just hired 450.

And unless you secretly want to be an MP, accountant, company secretary or more possibly Director of a company then I really wouldn't worry about a bankruptcy on your CV.

Mrs Welshman recruits for a large well known financial institution and they are subject to the FSA rules. She wouldn't blink if your bankruptcy is two years old.

Cheers

WWW

[Flying Spaniard]

Question for those that know, can a recently emigrated EU individual that is living in the UK declared bankrupt in the UK for loans taken out in the UK?

[chrisbl]

I take it you took out loans in the UK, defaulted on those loans and have now left the UK.

Yes, you can be made bankrupt. Your creditors rights have not changed just because you left the country. You can be made bankrupt in your absence.

[Flying Spaniard]

Hi Chrisbl,
Thanks for the response, question was more like whether it was possible for a recently arrived person to be declared bankrupt.
But i think the same answer applies.

In Oz there is restrictions on travel set if you are declared bankrupt, permision must be seeked from the trustee i believe.

Is there no travel restrictions for bankrupts in the UK?

[coded_messages]

Know of a Middle Eastern skipper who was commuting back to the UK as his wife and kids were there. He then got sick of the sand and returned to be in the left seat for a low cost carrier. When he applied for his UK tax code again and told the taxman he was back home permanent, he was investigated.

He was hit with a backdated taxbill of 5 years and interest added. All in all it was approx 130K+ Obiously he had no cash to pay it so they started Bankruptcy proceedings and he was forced to sell his family home. the equity in it was about a 5th of what he owed. He begged the taxman to let him keep his house as he had a wife and young kids to provide for and if he was forced to sell this would stress him. The consequences would be him losing his job etc. and he would then have to claim benefits and move into a council house on benefits too which would be costly to the government. He would try and borrow the equity from a relative so therefore could he keep the house? The answer... NO!

He is now not flying and living on the benefits - Where is the logic in that?

[SMARTYMARTY]

has anyone had any problems getting employed by the airlines having previously been made bankrupt

[BellyAir]

isn't it a pre-requisite?

[mack 1]

What makes you think it is easy to get a job not being bankrupt.

[Wodka]

Won't be a problem. Only effects certain jobs such as Police etc - Insolvency service publish a full list.

You will be discharged after a year anyway, so are not "bankrupt" after the discharge & therefore do not even need to mention it.

[Re-Heat]

You will be discharged after a year anyway, so are not "bankrupt" after the discharge & therefore do not even need to mention it.
Except forever after if you work in financial services, military, police, civil service etc where the discharge does not apply.

[Wodka]

well he doesn't want to work in those areas does he? :ugh:

[bri1980]

well he doesn't want to work in those areas does he?


Never a smart idea to burn your bridges though!

[Re-Heat]

well he doesn't want to work in those areas does he?
Without a job in aviation, he may have to as a backup. A medical is not for life either...

[Doc 4]

Do you know pilots that are not bancrupt after the training...? how do they look?:confused:

[mightymouse111]

Unless I'm mistaken the airlines do not do a credit search therefore your financial state is none of their business. It obviously will not appear on a criminal record check.
But when you are in your period of discharge yu will have an appointed Insolvency practioner and he may well write to your employer to find out details of your salary, as this may have to be paid to him/her.
It still should not affect your airline employment.

[Nibbler]

An IVA.

Your debts are frozen, no more interest is added. Bearing in mind a credit card with a 3k debt will take about 40 years to clear when you are only paying the minimum monthly amount!!

As long as you can afford to pay a minimum of £250 a month back to your creditors over 5 years [3 in Scotland] the remaining balance will be cleared. The monthly amount you pay back over this time will change depending on your disposable income. If you speak to a company offering IVA services they will [add their charges to the debt but you are no worse off] tell you what the maximum amounts are you can claim for each allowable living expense. Your 3 largest creditors have to agree to the IVA, the rest have no choice. The monthly repayment amount will increase as your pay does and your IVA manager will review it yearly. Proof of income does not need to involve the employer as your P45/P60 is good enough. The amount you agree to pay back can not be reduced. If you fail to make payments you will be declared bankcrupt.

Use a well known IVA management firm [!!] as your debts are still yours and I've seen news about some IVA firms not actually paying creditors the money clients have paid them.

You keep everything you own such as cars, house and as the owner of a business - your business.

Another Option
If you are just about covering your debts each month it might be an idea to ask all your creditors to agree a smaller monthly repayment with you. When dealing with credit card companies, they have to [as far as I have been told] agree to freeze the interest when you request they do so, then haggle the monthly repayment amount. This is the best option for your creditors as they are far likely to get all their money back. If you then find you can't pay them the agreed amounts then move to an IVA.

The tinternet and CAB have plenty more information.

Hope that is in some way informative.