Government Fee-help Discriminates Against Aviation ???

[raafboy26]

I'll say this in relation to paying for commercial flight training.

Many of you will be aware that (presently) the NZ government will allow CPL students to borrow the entire cost amount of their flight training and make repayments similar to the HECS scheme here in Oz. Sure, you have to attend an 'accredited' flying school, and the system is no doubt not perfect. However, at the end of the day, the system allows for prospective CPL students who would otherwise have no other way of pursuing a flying career due to financial cost, an opportunity to pursue their dream.

Last year, the Australian government made a change to the HECS system in Australia (which traditionally 'loaned' students the subsidised cost of undertaking university subjects/degrees). The system is now known as FEE-HELP, and effectively loans university students up to a limit of $50,000 to complete a university course(s). The repayments are made the same way as HECS was, that is, through the ATO.

HOWEVER, the primary difference with the introduction of FEE-HELP, is that the $50,000 study loan was broadened to cover students studying at many private colleges (non-university), in fields diverse as graphic design, hospitality, IT, etc; where an academic award less than a degree is often issued (eg diploma, certificate IV). Many of these private colleges charge tuition fees of up to $25000 per annum. I have had many friends study courses at such private colleges over the years; - and many of them have had to previously seek bank loans of some $40000 to cover the cost of their course, as it was not, until last year, eligible for a government study loan.

When I telephoned the Department to enquire whether FEE-HELP could now be used at an aviation private college to pay for flying expenses, they could not provide me with an immediate answer, but the tentative answer on the phone was "No".

Why is it, that I can go and study a graphic design diploma in a private college, or a hospitality diploma course, at the cost of up to $25000 per year, - yet cannot use FEE-HELP to pay for a CPL 'diploma of aviation' course???

I think this is a fair issue to consider. What are your thoughts?

http://www.backingaustraliasfuture.gov.au/implementation/sle_help.htm


:yuk:

[glekichi]

Very unfair, I believe.

It was a big issue leading up to the last election. Australian university students were holding protests against raising HECS fees to 25% or similar. Meanwhile, there were loads of us who would be greatful to pay back 100% of our education costs, if only given the opportunity to borrow what we needed to study. I wrote to my local MP... I even got a reply.. He was going to look into it... yeah right!!

I very, very seriously considered working to pay for my CPL in OZ. But I would have been 30 before I got that piece of paper...
I weighed up living on baked beans to fly one hour a week for five years, or living on baked beans for 12 months here in NZ as a full time student and having a CPL, MEIR, and C cat instructors rating. I figure the people who drive cars once a week or less suck...... so here I am!! (Yes, with a massive debt... but who cares!!!)

The student loan for pilots does have its pros and cons though. We have a lot of monkeys straight out of high school just doing it becuase its cool. We also have people with little or no talent..... One of my classmates just dropped out after paying xx thousand dollars for a PPL that took him over 100 hrs. Great guy but it just wasnt for him, and in OZ he would never have wasted so much money.

The loan is still available if youre an Aussie, and willing to live off $NZ150pw (which you must pay back!).
My parents are both Kiwis, and are back here now, but I dont live with them, so its no different really. I have to work a job as well, to be able to afford my Speights!!!

[Pass-A-Frozo]

I don't think the entire HECS thing is a big deal. The HECS system is has been statistically shown to have not had any effect on the socio-economic make up of university students.

Also, the reason the "Government" should contribute / assist someone with their education is because there is a benefit to the entire community in having a highly educated population. I don't think the same holds true when applied to a population full of CPL holders :)

[raafboy26]

Glekichi,

Q: "Meanwhile, there were loads of us who would be greatful to pay back 100% of our education costs, if only given the opportunity to borrow what we needed to study."

I could not agree more with you. I think it's pretty atrocious that I can go and rack up a $50000 debt to study a hotel management diploma or to become a graphic artist, yet cannot use the loan for an aviation related diploma/degree in Australia. - Even in the UNSW degree flying stream. !

I mean what the hell ???

We're going to have to pay the money back anyway, - why does the Australian government have the right to "decide" which higher ed (diploma+) courses are "suitable" for the loan funding. ???

I commend you on raising this important issue with your local MP. --

Can I ask mate, obviously you have to be an NZ citizen to access their student loan down there ?

Cheers..

[glekichi]

Can I ask mate, obviously you have to be an NZ citizen to access their student loan down there ?

Cheers..


No. What you need is permenant residency, which Australians automatically have here in NZ. To qualify for the student allowance for living costs you need to have lived here for two years, but if not, you can still borrow up to $150 a week on the loan for living costs. As said earlier though, thats not enough to live on if you like beer.

The future of the student loan for pilots, however, is unclear. From what Ive heard, there are limited places, and the number is gradually being decreased. Then again, theres nothing wrong with a little competition. They shouldnt be giving student loans to around half of the people doing it at the moment anyway.

[flaming_moe]

I'm in 2 minds about the whole student loan scheme, and it some ways im in no position to comment as i've never had one, however this FEE - HELP scheme seems unfair. My main problem with loans is that as glekichi pointed out there are a whole lot of muppets waking up one morning and deciding 'I want to be a pilot', a year and $60,000 later they have their CPL, MEIR etc etc, only to never use it..instead opting to go back to their desk jobs (only an example ;) ) The majority however have other intentions.

So has the aussie government just slotted hospitality and graphic design courses higher up than aviation diplomas? Although both important in their own leagues, surely the government would recognise the importance of supporting the aviation industry :mad:

[raafboy26]

Thanks glekichi,

Far out, it would just about be worthwhile for someone who really wanted to give professional aviation a go to move to NZ to take advantage of this..

I find it just amazing, that the australian government is able to 'dictate' how our 50000 study loan here in OZ has to be spent. Why do they care? Its gonna have to be paid back either way !

meh :confused:

[Howard Hughes]

Why do they care? Its gonna have to be paid back either way !

meh :confused:

Well you don't have to pay it back until you earn a certain amount of money per annum, somewhere around $30,000 I believe. Perhaps they are worried they are not going to see a return on their investment for sometime!! ;)
Cheers, HH.:ok:

[glekichi]

Hahah...
You mean the guys/gals struggling in GA, or the guys/gals with government funded arts degrees that live off the dole (as a career move) with 3 kids to 3 different partners HH?

[glekichi]

raafboy>

Well, thats the way I went.

The parents in NZ dont have much to do with it seeing I dont live with them and have never lived here before. Woulda been flyin FA18s in OZ if they didnt have stricter medicals (yes, i passed all other tests!!) than flying an A380 with.... what have the LOCs got it up to now... 750 passengers? on board.
</ end unrelated rant>

The aviation scene seems to be moving foward (as far as a pilot waiting for a job is concerned) much faster than OZ at the moment, too. Unless I **** up big time, the current situation will see me in a turboprop regional within about two years of getting my CPL. The pay in between might not be great, but hey, its an apprenticeship as far as Im concerned.

[devolved]

G’day,

After working in the city of Sydney and Training at Bankstown part time. I decided to apply to a loan approved flight school in NZ, armed with a NZ birth certificate and a current Aussie PPL there was very little hassle getting approval. As I noticed when I started the course 6 months ago in Wellington, was that these loans are almost too easy to obtain. There are a lot of students moping around the flight schools with massive debts unlikely to obtain their CPLs or get employed. I can see how they have been slightly deceived by the training organizations with the flashy brochures giving the impression of airline employment after training. And of course this would be enticing to any school leaver with a slight interest in aviation. It is true that there will be less places available each year (I’ve been told 100 places less each year).

On the upside, I am extremely happy to have the opportunity to train in a country with an amazing amount of weather and terrain hazards to keep me on my toes, and hopefully increase good airmanship.
The pilot movements are definitely different between the 2 countries, which is why I think a loan scheme in Australia might not work out. Could be wrong. But I do really feel and respect all the guys and gals that worked their butts off for their flying funds.

Cheers

[raafboy26]

Great, thanks for the posts.!

Can I ask, -

1. How hard is to to obtain instructor work down there for newbies?

2. Is it costly/difficult to obtain Oz/CASA equivalent licences, from NZ to OZ??

3. How and at what stage are loan repayments made?? - i.e. are there compulsory repayments immediately??

4. Would you say conditions for newbies are the (i) same, (ii) better, or (iii) worse than in Oz ?? (in terms of gaining employment, exploitation, ..)

Many thanks..

[glekichi]

No worries.

I only know about the OZ scene from what Ive read on here, so its kinda hard to compare the two.

Cant speak for other training establishments, but the school Im at "gives" everyone doing a C-cat the chance to do their supervision (first 100 hrs of instruction) there, albeit unpaid, and you may have to wait a little for a spot. Kind of a butt:mad: ing and a blessing at the same time, I guess. But, the right people do get offered jobs before completing their supervision, and the bright side is that they also do twin charter and ambulance flight work.
I am guessing we are lucky and this is not the norm throughout the whole of NZ, but it comes down to putting in a decent effort and making a good impression.

Re converting licenses.. Straightfoward. Its all on the CASA website.

The loan is paid like HECS, taken out of your pay once you earn over a certain threshold.. Dont know what it is off the top of my head.

[devolved]

Raafboy

1. All the instructors i've seen completing their ratings have obtained work. The flight school im at, offers employment to their students after finishing their instructors rating.

2. see either CASA or the CAA websites. It seems that you just have to pay them a fee to convert.

3. No repayments are made until you earn over a certain amount, not to sure on this figure, but it is low, as is any first flying job income. And if the elected government keeps their word, the loans might be interest free?

4. ill let ya know in a few months.. But we all start at the bottom of the ladder; however progression does seem fast here at the moment. Could all change this year if its true that ANZ is having a smaller intake.

Cheers.