paying for flying training

[griffinblack]

It has been expressed on a number of occasions in this forum with some disdain about parents paying for flying training. The presumption, I guess, is that the beneficiaries of this generous gift haven’t earn’t it and thus don’t deserve it and probably won’t give the flying training a real go.

Without wanting to be excessively controversial, I take a contrary view. 20 years ago tertiary education was free, now it is not. By paying now, are students now any more deserving? Do they appreciate their degree more? Do thy work harder? Can you tell the students who pay themselves, have their parents pay or defer payments? I would suggest not. In the military you actually get payed to do the flying training, are they then least deserving and work less hard than your average punter who works 3 jobs scrapping enough money to get one lesson a week?

I think that if my kids wish to persue a civvy flying career, I would attempt to pay for their training up front. To not do this would disadvantage them in a number of ways. In all probability it would lengthen the time of training, and perhaps the cost. It would put undue stress on my kids. And lets face it other people get free flying training – scholarships and the military, why shouldn’t my kids?

I guess my only caveat would be that it couldn’t be done on a whim, but they would have to show aptitude and dedication.

Just my thoughts.

[POPSMURF]

griffinblack

Sorry it just has to be done, my son has finished his training now and is building hours up north. Cost to date $65k, I should say borrowed to date.

Aviation paid for the house I borrowed against, its now getting a little back as it should be. Far too many people want something for nothing today.

I would do it all over again for number 2 son if that happens to be the path he chooses.

This is my first time here, I have read most topics and find them negative to say the least, Aviation is doing it tuff and needs a united front. I am also an AOPA member and find it shamefull that it gets attacked so regularly here.

AOPA has always come to my help and resolved a number of issues and problems I have had with my aircraft.

[Bob Murphie]

My Parents hocked the house to get me on a flying career, (2,000 Aussie quid in those days), and until I realised brickies labourers got paid more than I could earn plus pay the loan back, I was content to spend and enjoy.

I hope I expressed my gratitude before they died for giving me the gift of flight.

I enjoyed flying so much and didn't want to ruin the feeling, so I gave it away to become a "recreational" pilot.

That was 40 years ago.

I gave my Son the gift of flight, my Wife also, and I am nurturing Grandkids in the same vein.

What can you say, except "I would do it all over again".

AOPA has resolved many problems for me, but of recent I was forced to resign (as a member), because they emphatically made it clear that they would let me swing instead of doing what they were elected to do for their members. Only because I disagreed with the policy of making money from the members by misrepresenting the ASIC mess, perpetuating the confusion, and refusing to fight the issue.

Ill informed blind adherence to the ADSB concept has also ruined my faith in the organisation.

Also as a recently resigned "elected" board member, I couldn't abide any confidentiality agreements and secrecy deals that made policy without members input.

I couldn't abide a sneaky amendment to the constitution under the guise of ridding any future board of one "gaunty" to give illegal power to an elite fiat, or Troika, who have since dispensed with the rest of the elected board to further their own agendas.

There is nothing wrong with AOPA except some (a few), politically agenda driven individuals who control it, proclaiming the same boring mantra of the past and the redemption. They need to fall on their swords.

These controlling few, are self made men worshipping their creators, and need tossing out at the next elections. The silent remainders are, in my opinion, and as I was, intimidated with threats of "I would sue the ar$e off you" by people capable of seizing my family home.

So much for democracy and AOPA.

When this sort of thing stops, I and many others may rejoin.

[TeleMaPhone]

(I'll try and get this back to the topic...)

I have paid for every part of my flying myself, from the lessons to the headset and books. As a 17 year old I couldn't have been prouder than achieving my pilots licence on my own funding.
In my own personal opinion, I would have to say that if I was granted the money from my parents I probably wouldn't have worked as hard as I did to minimise my hours and ultimately minimise the cost to my own pocket. I think that paying for the flying myself was inspiration to learn all the checks and procedures so that once I was in the air I could concentrate on the nitty-gritty.
I have seen many other young pilots waste hours (and their parents money) as they don't understand the costs involved in flying, which only disadvantages them. I simply could not afford to fail any tests!
As with my commercial licence, I will certainly be getting that, I will however be working for a couple of years to earn the cash. Everyone I have spoken to in GA say that it is ideal to have something to fall back on, or alternatively a second income. Furthermore it will hopefully make me more employable than other young pilots who have lived off their parents wealth.
TMP

[4SPOOLED]

I have payed for my training and am extremely proud that i was lucky enough to be in a situation to do so.

Most aspiring young pilots do not have the means to pay for training, and if in the same position as my other peers, i would gladly accept large sums of money from my parents to give me the chance to take to the sky, however i would have paid every cent back on principle:ok: .

[EPIRB]

I paid for my training too and am also very proud of the fact. In fact, I was asked at my Ansett interview how I financed my training and the fact that I paid for it myself appeared to be a tick in the box. I work on the principal that if you want something bad enough, you'll get it. My parents weren't in a postion to pay so I worked during the school holidays and had a couple of lousy jobs when I left school. I even sold my bike and a couple of musical instruments that I had. I don't agree with the comment "most aspiring young pilots do not have the means to pay for training". What's the matter with getting off your bum and getting a job to finance your training?

[flaming_moe]

I would'nt say 'most aspiring young pilots don't have a means of paying for their training', its a matter of whether or not they have the motivation and drive to work for their goal. It took me 3 years of throwing bags to pay for my CPL, while my mates were out getting their tickets signed off in a year thanks to the government. Paying your own way is'nt the easiest option, but its by far the most rewarding.

I just find it interesting to see how people who opt for the student loan option cope when they get the mammoth bill at the end of the course, and most of them realise they have no real means of paying it off any time soon :uhoh:

I'm in a job now where the only pilots we hire are those who have worked to pay for their licences themselves. So for you guys out there who are lacking determination to work through that ticket, please use this as some encouragement. Paying your own way will pay off down the line :ok:

Moe

[raafboy26]

Exactly.
See my post about this regarding "FEE-HELP".

[Bob Murphie]

I think the point I was making got lost somewhere. In 1965 a complete CPL course including all the flying, exams, and whatever cost 2,000 pounds,(or $4,000), which my Parents went guarantor for. All DCA maps and charts except the WAC's were free as were the subscription service. In 1967 a then old C172 cost me $10 per hour solo.

After reaslising I could make more money out of aviation than in, the debt was easily repaid over the following year. By making more outside, I could then afford to fly recreationally which I have done since.

I doubt any young aviation minded pilot could repay what it would cost today in 12 months whether in or out of the industry. Especially in the industry.

Does anybody know how much it would all cost today? It would be interesting to compare.

I admire those who have overcome all the speedbumps put in our way to achieve a goal, but it is important to understand that if you entertain any ideas of reaching that top (probably), 5- 10% forget about becoming wealthy on the way there. I've seen too many fall by the wayside.

[flaming_moe]

I doubt any young aviation minded pilot could repay what it would cost today in 12 months whether in or out of the industry. Especially in the industry.


I fully agree Bob, once working in the industry I dont think anyone could repay it in 4 years let alone 12 months. I have friends who prefer to forget about their loans while in their first job. Most get paid enough to live comfortably off the sole income, but not enough to start major repayments on the loan.

Here in NZ you can expect to borrow around $55000, but I know of one guy that got stung $110,000 for a CPL, Instrument Rating and Instructors Rating. He's having to pay the equivalent of a weeks rent each month just to beat the interest :eek: And the best bit is that after forking out all this cash he's not even guarenteed a job on completion.

Once again, I say take the long road and pay for it yourself :ok:

[Keg]

So all you guys who go the 'better to pay it yourself' way don't ever think about borrowing money from a bank to buy a house? Debt is a legitimate way of funding spending- as long as it is something that will give you a decent return and herein is the interesting part.

I paid for my PPL and first 100 hours on my own. After that I was lucky enough to get a QF cadetship which required that I fork out $15K (in 1991 dollars). Given that I'd just spent every last cent on those first 100 hours, I certainly didn't have any spare coin for the $15K so I borrowed $12K off the olds. It was paid back within two years of finishing my course (which is also the time frame that I WASN'T employed by QF and was back to doing crappy security work. Should have seen the response from people in GA when they knew you were a QF cadet and were hitting them up for a job! Fair enough I guess!). My point is that borrowing money (and obviously repaying it) isn't necessarily a bad thing.

[maxgrad]

Agree. Like the time honoured statement,(by some). I can't find a job, theres none out there.
At one stage while financing my own flying I picked up the Yellow pages and just started phoning companies seeking work. Biggest problem was I ended up with three at the same time.

You want to fly bad enough, you will find a way.

Those who have had their training paid for can be good or bad. All depends on the attitude. Some appreciate the gift and give it back in some future effort, while others take it for granted and become a general pain in the a$s to be near. I think that those who appreciate flight make better pilots and better co workers. Self funded or not.

Popsmurf...glad to hear that AOPA helped you on many occassions. They have done next to b_gger all for me

[Chimbu chuckles]

I took the long road....working in a boatshed, glue factory and then drove taxis while getting my PPL, CPL subjects and the required command time over a 3 year period before my father, having seen how hard I worked to that point, offered to gaurantee a loan to finish it off quick. I borrowed 11K and in 3-4 months had my CPL and Instructor Rating while still driving cabs a few days a week.

The entire time I was living out of home paying rent and all of life's usual expenses.

I was debt free within two years of finishing it having got my first job in PNG within 12 mths of finishing my CPL/Instructor rating...I had also paid cash for my Instrument Rating and got married in that time.

I had my TIF in January 1981, CPL in '85, debt free with IR and 1100 hrs (500+ MEC) in Dec '87.

In contrast my best mate, and the Best man at my wedding, had a FW and RW CPL/IR paid for by dad and now is a gaurd on suburban trains in Sydney....despite me offering him several jobs over the years.

Another mate who had his CPL/Instructor Rating (all done by 18), paid for by Daddy, when I was still a Restricted PPL, still only had 200 hrs 5 years later when I offered him a job....I think the first time I ever flew outside the BK training area he was in the RHS although it wasn't a navex...he was staying at my place on the first part of his round Oz trip looking for a job...without success. 5 years later I was his CP and did his initial TW endorsement on a C185 in PNG and later did his BN2 type rating before I headed off to Talair.

Last I heard he was flying Kingairs.

One of my best mates son has just left school and has expressed interest in flying for a living. Interestingly when offered the RHS in my Bonanza he declined and was happy sitting in the back :sad: His dad and I just looked at one another....seems young people these days are not as out of control enthusiastic as we were at their age...I cannot begin to comprehend turning an offer like that down when I was 18 :confused:

In discussing this recently we both agreed that paying for his licences up front would be doing no-one any favours...although dad could afford to do so. I think he will be following the path of his father and I...his dad worked tuna boats to pay his own way through.

He will need to prove he has the intestinal fortitude by getting his PPL, ATPL subjects and the 100hrs PIC before dad guarantees a loan for the rest. He is luckier than 99% of kids in that he will have a good job straight after he finishes, flying in the SWP for the domestic side of the airline his dad flys for....but the (much smaller) loan will be his to pay off in whatever time frame.

My daughter shows no interest in flying at all but if she did I would be doing it the same way...although she could log time in my Bonanza for the cost of fuel once she had a PPL...It's natural to want to give our children every help but in doing so we miss out on giving them one of life's most important lessons...That life is hard and hard work is required to succeed.

Our kids of course will not be booted out the door at 18 as we were...they can live at home cheaply while getting their qualifications....I think that is enough of a helping hand.

[tinpis]

Thankfully none of tins kids are the slightest interested.
I have had one query about flying from my son of 18
"Have you ever crashed dad ?" :hmm:

[Chimbu chuckles]

And of course you answered honestly and said "YES":} :ok:

My girl and I did 13 odd hrs in my Bonanza these last holidays visiting family in NSW and Vic from QLD...it was fun...and more challenging than long haul in a Boeing :uhoh:...but sliding into our J class seats to return back overseas to work/school she made the observation "this job is really just glorified bus driving hey dad?"

Yes my darling but it's paid for everything we have in life!!! :p

[maxgrad]

My kids just shout have a nice flight Dad as I race down the steps:ok:

[Howard Hughes]

So all you guys who go the 'better to pay it yourself' way don't ever think about borrowing money from a bank to buy a house? Debt is a legitimate way of funding spending- as long as it is something that will give you a decent return and herein is the interesting part.

I paid for my PPL and first 100 hours on my own. After that I was lucky enough to get a QF cadetship which required that I fork out $15K (in 1991 dollars). Given that I'd just spent every last cent on those first 100 hours, I certainly didn't have any spare coin for the $15K so I borrowed $12K off the olds. It was paid back within two years of finishing my course (which is also the time frame that I WASN'T employed by QF and was back to doing crappy security work. Should have seen the response from people in GA when they knew you were a QF cadet and were hitting them up for a job! Fair enough I guess!). My point is that borrowing money (and obviously repaying it) isn't necessarily a bad thing.

That's a good story mate, hats off to you Keg, for some strange reason people think it's an easy road to be a cadet. Your story goes to show, that's not necessarily the case!!:ok:

[4SPOOLED]

well i worked on the mines, bought a small business, then started flight training.....parents are poor so no help from them, in contrast i bought first house at 19, invested the 50K i saved by that stage into a franchise and then used cashflow for flight training.

If i was 16 with bright starry eyes and my parents offered to pay, lke most kids i would have accepted straight away, and i stand by that, but without that option i had to work out a plan and stick to it which i have. Only thing i didnt prepare for is the backstabbing, cut throat hidden agenda biggots that seem to dominate the business world. But i stood my ground lived by my own morality and feel good about the way i have treated people and have a good reputation from it.

[Dry_Twotter]

I forked out an extra 1200 bucks and did the last quarter of my commercial training in a 206. Best thing i ever did (job wise). Many late nights at the pub were sacrifised though!

[TopTup]

Paid for it / didn't pay for it, cadet / non cadet, instructing v outback v metropolitan v Nth QLD v SA...... No one is ever as good enough unless they did it the way someone else deems same as them it seems.

Have flown alongside many pilots of all different backgrounds. If they are professional and good airnmen/women then what concern is of to me how they came to arrive in that seat? It annoys me that some employers are so pathetic as to only employ pilots having come to arrive at their door by XX means only. They deem some pilots not good enough to fly their C172 but get onto a CX, EK, QF, BA, etc flight where the guy in the left and or right seat may probably be "the type" he / she would refuse to employ.

Each pilot on their own merrits. Do you go to your doctor, accountant, dentist, etc based on how they "earnt their wings" alone, or does it matter as long as they are professional and good at their job?

[pilotdreams1977]

Hi everyone,
i completely agree with those in favour of paying for flight training YOURSELF.

I have met many young aspiring pilots who have had their training financed by their dad and compared to those who have slogged out years to earn the money to pay for the flying, well they just dont have the real fire in the belly.....generally speaking that is.

I remember talking to my CFI years ago asking him what is the hardest thing about getting your CPL. He replied "Making the money to pay for your flight training". When it comes to flying training, the easiest part is the training! The hardest part is
- going to work everyday in job that you might not like
- having to put up with the bosses crap:mad:
- having to make financial sacrifices such as not going on holiday or travelling, not buying new car, not going out, choosing between flying training and a downpayment on a new home:confused:
- or having to put up with your mothers crap because you cant afford to move out and pay rent.:sad:

The actual flying and studying side of it is a piece of cake.

I recently quit my job after 3.5 years saving for my CPL. I wasnt able to fly during that period as I was based away from flying schools. Everyday at work i never lost sight of why I was working and I knew that once I quit I would pursue flying full-time. Once I quit my job I was able to resume flying training and within a month after I quit my job I sat three cyber CPL exams, scoring 100% in one of them and high 90s in others. It only took me around 10 days to study for each exam. I'm not a smart bloke but after slogging it for 3.5 years, it gave greater meaning to my flying training.

So you can see that the journey to the CPL is quite different. For those who had the luxury of their parents paying for their training....well lucky you.....i know you a grateful to your parents.
And for those who paid for it themselves...well to arrive at a CPL totally self funded is an amazing journey and an amazing story that involved pretty much a lot of heartache and MANY sacrifices.:ok:

[maxgrad]

Very nicely put.
Like anything, if you have the motivation you can achieve near anything.

[Lodown]

For what it's worth, I've had many years of experience flying with many pilots in the left and right seats. The pilots who I admired most for their decision-making when push came to shove were the pilots who didn't need the job. Generally, the ones who 'needed' the job were also the ones prepared to bend the rules to keep it.

[Richo]

I agree with TOP TUP, I don't put much empahsison on how you came to be where you are.

What I care about is what you are now, and that revolves around your daily performance.

Who was it that said "It takes all types" or as I have seen it written recently "Differences make the Difference".

We have all seen people who (in our eyes) deserve to be there and those that don't. If you are basing this on how they paid for their training, well than I have a mirror for you to have a long hard look at.
What we are really talking about here is their MOTIVATION to be pilots. Motivation is not measured in dollars and cents, but it can it can be related to how hard you worked (struggled) to achieve the goal.

From my own experience, I was awarded a RPPL scholarship after paying for the first 3 hours. (Even if I didn’t get the scholarship I would still be here today, of that I have no doubt).
However the previous 3 scholarship awardees simply did not complete their training, they appear to have had no MOTIVATION to go ahead with it. Now all of us were AIRTC cadets, who you would assume have a reasonable motivation to fly.

I then payed for my PPL by working the usual after school jobs (HJ's, red rooter etc). I funded my CPL, IR and FIR with DFRDB (super) payout when I left the military.


So I say, how ever you do it (pay, loan, grant, borrow, gift, scholarship) it matters NOT. what matters is your MOTIVATION to be there and your performance in the position.

Every poster here has shown great enthusiasm in paying or supporting others who have the MOTIVATION to be PILOTS. Surely that is what we should be concentrating on, rather than on the negative (snobby, jealous and elitist) views.

Hi Griff B, hows the Darwin scene.