Messing

[9.81m/s/s]

All,

I have just received a beautifully writen letter offering the chance of much better accommodation (finally getting out of a transit block which makes having naked pictures of yourself and your family taken in Abu Ghraib look enticing !!! ) to be advised of the following rules and regs :

1. All personally owned electrical equipment should be taken to ( some random punter living in the mess!!!!!!!! Mmmm ) to be PAT certified. Otherwise I will be personally liable for any call-out charges should my devices trip a cb. I should add that the cost of this PAT cert shall be met by me !!!!!!!!!

2. I may not move any furniture out of my new room including the bed in order to replace it with any of my own (presumably that also includes my chiropractic mattress which cost a small fortune and which like so many quietly suffering flyers, I NEED !!!)

3. I may not re-decorate my new room - NO! I must try and make the place as comfy as possible by accepting magnolia walls and issue furniture.

4. I may not use blu tack on the walls or any type of pin/nail, instead any posters/pictures etc must be capable of sustaining the hover for quite some time.........!!!!!!!

Referring to currently running threads elsewhere on the forum - these are just some of the little things which we in the forces must accept as payment for being at the beck and call of a little dog trying desperately to play with the big dogs and run in the long grass !!!!!!!!

It goes without saying how utterly pi**ed off and angry I am at constantly being treated like a five year old and putting up with so much s**t in return for working my ass off for others!!!!!

Yes it has been a bit of a rant - BUT .......the facts are the facts!

Thoughts ?.........................................

[Two's in]

Where's your initiative 9.81? Don't singlies still get married to avoid this nonsense?

[9.81m/s/s]

Indeed, or perhaps I should change which side i bat for and co-habit in a new same sex ' marriage ' !!!!!!!!

[vecvechookattack]

Are you complaining or grateful for the cheap accom....not sure what your twist is?

[FOMere2eternity]

Despite you being a paying tenant the Service does prefer to honour the 'you pay us' side of the agreement over the 'we have to legally do certain things' in return. Once more your basic rights are less than a prisoner.

I would suggest you speak to a similarly harassed singly, agree to a Civil Partnership, which apparently doesn't require consummation :eek: , whereupon you can leave the block and enjoy limited human rights. Moreover when you're posted you can own things bigger than triwall boxes, have them moved by removals men AND get £900 for a holiday...

Fake gay - it's the future for singlies!

[Wyler]

Your intentions may be honourable but others would take advantage (and have!) and leave others to clear up after them. That costs money. I agree it all seems draconian but I have seen some inventive ways of making life comfy.
Good point made earlier, if you can find a better landord outside at the same price, feel free.

[9.81m/s/s]

Complaining about cheap accomm.?

No not at all. But why is it that everything is a constant ' rub up the wrong way ' ? A constant fight? We are all working hard - we really don't need all these petty little things creating a ' them and us attitude '!!!! We seem to be able to adjust to the rapidly changing times and apply countless civvy-inspired rights to our personnel and working practices - and I agree not all of them good. But come on......painting the walls in a room? Putting up your own curtains? Sleeping in a single bed with less than adequate mattress? Petty petty petty !!!! I am sure I am capable of returning the walls to the original colour - it's not beyond the capabilities of a child ! I am not asking the station commander to personally move my bed in!!!!

Just another big pat on the back and a well done .....tell you what .....let us try and help you make things as comfortable and homely as possible, so that when you return from the two 3 month dets that you do every year, you can relax and re-charge your batteries in a comfortable and familiar environment......... Oh no silly me .........LETS NOT !!!!!!!

[Runaway Gun]

Since you are a paying customer, can you:

1) Get the hot water problem fixed quickly?

2) Eat what and when you want?

3) Use your own toilet?

4) Share your bed (oh yes, it's a single)

5) Get a good night's undisturbed sleep (or day's sleep when on nightshift)?

I suggest that the company should be paying YOU an allowance... :ok:

[timex]

I have just received a beautifully writen letter offering the chance of much better accommodation (finally getting out of a transit block which makes having naked pictures of yourself and your family taken in Abu Ghraib look enticing !!! ) to be advised of the following rules and regs :


You could always stay in the transit accom, the reasons for the restrictions are usually in place to stop "some" people destroying decent accom. As for the Elec side of life I think that its probably driven by H&S.

Just moved into new accom myself so know the probs.

[9.81m/s/s]

To 747,

This forum is ' military aircrew ' and of course extends to everything associated with 'things military'. Funnily enough messing is a fundamental way of life for a lot of us in the Air Force - and it therefore has a bearing on our way of life. If you don't like it or think it has nothing to do with prune then I suggest you have another think about what prune is for and whather your contributions are any more valid than mine! Just a suggestion. And your 'handle' perhaps says more than you realise !!!

[vecvechookattack]

1)Get the hot water problem fixed quickly?

yes

2) Eat what and when you want?

yes

3) Use your own toilet?

yes

4) Share your bed (oh yes, it's a single)

yes

5) Get a good night's undisturbed sleep (or day's sleep when on nightshift)?

yes

[Runaway Gun]

Thanks 9.81, now I recognise the humour behind his name. (It took me two days, plus your help).

Vecvec, I'm bloody jealous of your excellent Mess accomodation.

[9.81m/s/s]

vecvec......

Don't know what air force mess you live in.........

1. Get hot water fixed quickly........
*** Mmmm been tryin works services to replace bulbs in my communal bathroom for two months !!!!!!!!! *** H+S hazard at night !!!!

2. Eat what want, when want ?
*** you are obviously unfamiliar with Air Force regs regarding the cooking and preparation of food in mess accomm. And To the best of my knowledge when I land at 0300 the kitchen is not open for breakfast. ***

3. Use own toilet.
*** Like I said - mine is communal along with the shower ***

4. Good nights sleep blah blah blah......
*** Do me a favour......I'm bored now............

[C130 Techie]

9.81m/s/s

I fully sympathise

I have the misfortune to live in the recently refurbished accommodation in the SNCOs Mess at the covert DLO headquarters in Cambridgeshire.

I live in as I am serving married unaccompanied (voluntarily) and therefore do not pay for accommodation but do pay for food.

When I moved into the new accommodation which is ensuite in September after a struggle to get furniture etc there were several outstanding works services which are still outstanding despite promises of the contractors returning to sort things.

In addition the laundry rooms were not equipped with the necessary plumbing for the washing machines. These have been sat idle for over 2 months now.

The accommodation suffers from all the usual problems of an old mess, noisy etc. Although I don't pay for the accommodation I believe that I am entitiled to expect a reasonalbe standard and level of service which we do not apear to get despite constant badgering.

The standard of food in the mess is poor with very little possibility of being able to eat healthily and of course you have to eat at the dictated times.

Is it too much to ask these days for a minimum acceptable standard to observed across all messes.

[9.81m/s/s]

C-130 Techie............


Well said. I think it's all about give and take and having the decency to cut through the crap to help the boys and girls out a little. The military is not the samaritans - but warfare and welfare are not mutually exclusive. Lets all try and be sensible and decent about such matters - they really do matter - and constant pettiness really can totally p**s people off!!!

[opso]

Ignoring the current standard of rooms, support etc... How much would people be willing to pay for living in if all the problems were removed?

All of the hassles over work services, dining arrangements etc could easily be addressed and solved. BUT, it would cost. There is only so much that would be available from central funds, so it would undoubtedly involve livers-in digging deeper. Seriously, a £200 upfront deposit (returnable) for redecoration, repair or contract cleaning required on move-out and a £20-a-night fee may come close to the mark. Much cheaper than an equivalent standard hotel, but frankly, who would want to pay £600+ a month to live in?

The driving point has to be how much people are willing to pay. Work out what could be done for that, check the balance in terms of value for money, adjust the amount willing to be paid and repeat as necessary. This iterative process would then find the point of balance. Personally, I suspect that we're fairly close to a balance point at the moment.

As for the idiotic restriction about no blu-tack, no nails; sod it. You will never have as much money in your pocket as when you are a living-in singly (don't get married...or have kids....!) so you don't want posters - get decent framed art while you can still afford it. Then put the nails in anyway to hang it and just buy a small tub of ready mix polyfilla when you move out and a small palette knife (total <£5) and fill the holes. Get enough practice and you won't even need the tin of magnolia paint that sits in the garage of everyone on the married patch as you'll do such a smooth job that will blend in.

[movadinkampa747]

9.81 I don't really think you know what my "handle" means. Do you see the civvy pilots moaning about their accom on terms and endearment. As the name suggests its a "Rumour network".

Surley this sort of moaning should be done on the dedicated RAF site? What will people think if they see you going on about the state of your room.

[SubdiFuge]

Surley this sort of moaning should be done on the dedicated RAF site?

That wouldn't be the crappie mover related site that you or some other sad Muppet has set up elsewhere - would it?

SDF

[KENNYR]

747...........The problems that 9.81 is bringing to our attention (not moaning) is not restricted to living-in life in the RAF. The problem exists in just about every mess across the nation in every service. Civilian contracting has killed the traditional "exclusive club" life in all our messes. If any SNCO or Officer is allocated a room in a mess on a 2 or 3 year tour then that person should be allowed to have the room unfurnished (at no extra charge) and be provided with decent catering at times when the catering is required (especially after night flying or middle of the night landings). It used to be done so it is "doable".

[BEagle]

Perhaps it should also be noted that the price of private housing in many parts of the country now condemns many first tourist aircrew to living-in (or should that be 'existing in') the Officers' Mess.

Not so bad perhaps back in the days when the messes were run for the benefit of the members rather than for the benefit of some civilian contractor. But now??

[vecvechookattack]

You have to remember that with civilian contractors they have to make a profit, so why not vote with your feet? If you dont like it then dont eat there.

In sunny Kernow, the accomm is cool. En-suite Bathrooms, PAYD is improving to a good standard (thats because we voted with our feet). Its YOUR mess fellas, so rather than moaning, do something about it.

[sarmonkey]

....and I bet the jam is the best in the armed forces. Any pips?

[C130 Techie]

It would be nice to have the luxury of opting out of eating in the mess however the charge for food is stopped directly from my pay. As it is I already have to go out and buy fresh fruit etc each week to ensure that I can eat a healthy diet.

I have no problem with civilian contractors making a profit so long as it is not to the detriment of the service that they are supposed to provide. The fact that the mess accommodation in many cases is in a state of disrepair due to age cannot be blamed on the contractor but they could at least make an effort to provide the best with whats available and have a little flexibility. When the messes were service run there was usually a fairly simple route to redress through the chain of command. These days everything has to go through the contract monitoring team and at the end of the day in my experience it is rare that you get a satisfactory outcome.

[charliegolf]

What is the cost to live in these days? (Sgt's Mess or O's)

Is there an underlying "Well what do you expect for £x a week?" attitude there?

Do officers still have batties?

CG

[Dave Martin]

4. I may not use blu tack on the walls or any type of pin/nail, instead any posters/pictures etc must be capable of sustaining the hover for quite some time.........!!!!!!!

Probably not quite following the letter of the law, but our stationery supplier offers "White-Tac" or some such brand name.

Needless to say, it's white, leaving no marks and it isn't "blu-tac" nor "pin/nail".

As for the rest of the regulations, sounds like you may be screwed.

[gashman]

Is there a messing suggestions book available? I thought any points raised in them need to be addressed by the relevant member of the Mess Comittee and ultimately the standards should be upheld by the PMC. We could get late meals left behind the bar if we were night flying, even if it was a salad or something (fridges in the corridor common rooms helped too, a bit like living as a student than a hotel patron, but it works). Life in the forces without the mess culture would be miserable.

[Melchett01]

Life in the forces without the mess culture would be miserable.

Sorry Gashman, but I think Mess life in the majority of the RAF died a few years ago - just waiting for stores to come up with the nails so we can sort out the coffin lid ........ Personally I was all for a viking send off just like the piano!:p

Flippancy aside, Mess life has now deteriorated to a point where it is no longer worth living in, because we don't live in a Mess. We generally inhabit rather than live, substandard accommodation, with substandard facilities and pay the usual Dick Turpin contractors far too much money for far too little service. Sounds as though I am being melodramatic, possibly to some. However, I will leave you with this little tail of a very enjoyable 6 months spent holding at Bentley Priory at the back end of the 90s.

The place was run by contractors, as many others were at the time. The public rooms were imaculate and although the stables were in need of a lot of TLC, there was a real sense of history and air force ethos there and yes, depite being a Gp HQ at the time, with more scrambled egg in the Mess than you could shake a stick at it was a fun place to be. The Mess staff were amazing; friendly, almost overly helpful and standards of catering and ludicrously cheap bar prices (set for the benefit of the members rather than Dick Turpin's pockets) that made trips to the gym an unfortunately frequent necessity. I remember we had one steward there who was ex-RN and had spent many a happy year cruising the world on the Royal Yacht serving Aunty Liz before this lot made her get the ferry. Despite now being a contractor, he brought with him a pride and enjoyment in his job. Nothing was too much trouble - right down to volunteering to nipp off to the kitchens to make you a sandwich if you got back from town late and had missed dinner.

There were the odd career arse-kissers floating around, but you get that anywhere, but on the whole, despite it being an egg-infested Gp HQ, with pretty poor personal accommodation, it was a happy place to live in, without stupid rules made up by idiots that had no concept that the Mess is actually peoples' homes rather than their personal cash-cow. Don't know what it's like anywhere else, but at my place, when the list goes up for functions, people are checking their diaries not to see if they can fit it in, but whether or not they can come up with an excuse not to go because of all the joys of current Mess life.

The point is that people were prepared to put up with slightly sub-standard accommodation as the rest of the package was so good. Now it appears that the rest of the package has gone into freefall in many places with the general decline in standards of accommodation. I have to say, I think Mess life is on the way out if it isn't already dead- largely due to bean counters, contractors, jobsworths and being run by people that have no concept of what the function of the Mess actually is.:sad:

[The Helpful Stacker]

Surley this sort of moaning should be done on the dedicated RAF site? What will people think if they see you going on about the state of your room.

Have you ever heard of 'Human Factors' movadinkampa747?

Matters that seem petty can have a serious impact on flight safety.

[Confucius]

9.81m/s/s, do as I did (a few years ago I'll admit) and simply ignore the rules. I even had a sat. dish bolted to the wall just outside my window.

[PileUp Officer]

Very warm


When aren't messes ridiculously warm? In every room I've lived in I had to turn all the heating off and still sleep/live with the window open all the time just because the pipes were giving out so much heat.

Once I found a small wasp's nest in my room which was obviously only a few weeks old. The wasp seemed to like warmth more than me but for the 2 days that I had my window closed to keep it out it was almost unbearably hot!

Looking back I don't know why I didn't just kill it and leave my window open:ooh:

[ARINC]

A good number of the rooms at Lyneham's Officers' Mess faced onto the car park (& a goodly chunk of the airfield, how unusual!), so any reduction in noise was very welcome.

What luxury compared to the utter misery of Lyneham transit accomodation. Waifs and strays from all over the empire congregating in preperation for Alberts to return them, from whence they came. Thank God It's was only 2 hours to Brüggen. :yuk:

[A2QFI]

After years in the RAF and other flying organisations I retired at 55 and joined the Civil Service. When I went on tdy to an RAF station the Civil Service would not permit me to stay in the mess as the facilities on offer were not up to the standard they expected. I think the main point they were making was the lack of en-suite 'facilities'; however none of the other stuff you would get, even in a 2* hotel, brewing up kit, TV etc. I did stay in one mess where the maintenance funds were clearly spent on the public rooms and nothing in the accomodation - chipped and missing tiles, dripping taps, radiators needing bleeding, green mould in the showers, blown bulbs, windows that couldn't be opened etc, etc!

[threepointonefour]

Sadly this kind of cr@p exists more and more ...

I recall a certain Mess EGM when the DPMC asked the mess members to vote for some new cutlery for use by the top table only, at DI nights. It was so expensive the the mess could only afford about 24 sets!

I raised an objection on the grounds that;
1) I had no key for my room door and was unable to lock it.
2) The wall paper on my ceiling (yes, ceiling!) was peeling and hanging down in 3 places.
3) My hot water was brown.

A tirade of abuse followed and we didn't buy the spoons!

It would seem that the cost of refurbishing all those 1950s messes with shared en-suite bathrooms etc has been to cut back in other areas.


Answer (sadly) - move out. Rent, buy, share.


ps. I refer to a time when leaving my room unlocked was not a issue on 2 counts; I had nothing worth nicking, and no-one seemed really inclined to wander around the mess thieving. Unlike a certain OM, that has been rumoured to have had all its Christmas Draw prizes 'lifted' from reception before the draw !!!!!

[Elmlea]

A mate of mine was staying in his mess for a few days just before Xmas. As literally the only person daft enough to stay there, he bumped into a visiting civilian doctor who'd been invited to his base for some reason or another.

He was saying it was quite embarrassing to have to show this bloke around. The whole mess was locked, no-one had told him any door codes, and all the lights (and most of the heating) were off. Directions to this doctor's room were scribbled on the back of an envelope; and his room was freezing, with brown hot water and a walk upstairs on cold stone stairs to find a toilet. Lastly, there was centralised messing on, but no-one had bothered to tell him, show him where the JRM was, or book meals for him.

Unsurprisingly, the doc decided he didn't really need this sort of warm welcome, and leapt straight back in his car to go home. Must be embarrassing to show someone your mess like that. It's not what you'd expect from even the cheapest hotel, is it?

And on a personal note, I've come back after Christmas to find there's no heating in my room either. Excellent :ok:

[vecvechookattack]

Many Many years ago I was living in the (old) Mess at Portland and we all suffered a similar tale of freezing cold cabins. So, we all nipped into Weymouth and purchased our own 2 Bar electrical heaters. Cost - £4.50 Result - snug as a bug.

Pusser then received the next eleccy bill and hit the roof...

result - heating turned up and Officers kindly requested to rerfrain from using eleccy heaters.


Priceless.

[BEagle]

Briiliant - an excellent naval tactic :ok: !

Many years ago, we were frozen stiff in the sqn because the Blunt Ones refused to turn on the heating. The Boss threatened OC Admin that he'd personally come down and set fire to all the files in Admin Whinge one by one to keep warm unless the situation was unbuggered sharpest...

And lo - let there be heat! Yea verily there soon was!

[Spugford]

Top stuff, particularly from the likes of vecvechookattack and Mike Jenvey for naming and shaming. Lets have less of this weak 'the Mess at my base somewhere in Lincs' rubbish and get the worst offenders ID'd.

You never know....

[C130 Techie]

Spugford

OK just in case it wasn't clear enough from my description, I am currently doing my purgatory in the SNCOs Mess at Wyton.

[Pontius Navigator]

Whilst One g has my sympathy, nothing has change in almost half a century. My first 'hit' was when I was sent a mess bill after graduation for my room key. As I had never had a room key I challenged the mess manager (sqn ldr rtd); he told me that I had signed for the key to WWUnn and not returned it. I responded that I had been in EWLnn and 'sod off'.

In Cyprus we were given parafin heaters only to be used when we were in the room, with the window open and not when we were sleeping. I bought a 3kW fan heater and used to put it on 24/7 at 1kW when I was out and 3kW when I was in over the winter. :}

As House Member at Wittering I dragged PSA and the barrack warden around the mess and made them repair the rooms and replace carpets etc. Mind you I wasn't helped by one sod that had an oily motorbike engine in bits on his carpet :uhoh:

[Gainesy]

Didn't he have the nous to keep 'em in the bath, like normal folk?

[Brain Potter]

Why are messes just about the only form of accomdation that do not provide a towel? Even the shabbiest B&Bs provide at least one. A mess has to launder the linen, just like a hotel, so I don't see that a couple of towels, particularly for visitors, is too much to expect. (Note to Akrotiri - curtains do not count)

On a more positive note, I stayed at Waddington recently and found it to be much better than my (low) expectations. Friendly and helpful staff, reasonable food and amazingly - a towel !!

[Sloppy Link]

We all have tales of woe from various messes we have stayed in, I think it is worthwhile mentioning some I have been in that were actually a pleasure...

Chicksands - A beautiful old building with top tasty tucker and freindly staff.
Fort Blockhouse - Basic accom but nice views over Pompey harbour.
St Mawgan - Faceless accom but very helpful staff.
Edinburgh Castle - Fantastic!

[Shackman]

Ah Chicksands - en suite accommodation (with LOTS of towels, enormous double bed, cable TV, fridge etc) and a reception that sold beer very cheap. Admittedly this was only the transit hotel, but for $1:50 (or thereabouts) - :D . Delights of the rod and gun club of an evening, a great eatery during the day and the bowling alley when all else failed. Shame it was all declared non standard post 1995, but at least they didn't sell the Priory off (but what happened to the ghost?).

[9.81m/s/s]

I think Melchett01 has summed it up pretty well - better than I did !!!! It's all about the constant erosion, the constant battling over the pathetic little things which - to an outsider seem trivial - but to us freezing our bits off or having to ' obey ' downright ridiculous rules is important. Melchett01 is right when he says that the things we used to enjoy about mess life made up for the rest of the crap.......not any more my friends. My last Mess AGM proposed buying ( from our contributions of course) a nice silver C-17 to display on function nights. At approx £700 it semed a bit steep to me, considering we still pay to use the washing machines and dryers - £1 a wash and 20p to have a gnat fart on the corner of your hankie !!!!! And yeah, Confucius - think I will be taking your advice - they can take me to court if they can find a piece of paper with my signature on it.................until then .......where's me angle grinder....?

[Mmmmnice]

Having taken the advice posted earlier in the thread (got married years ago), and not had the delight of staying in a mess recently, it's depressing to see things much as they were when I was single. Equally irritating/confusing is the lack of consistency across the services over what to expect in the way of facilities/rules&regs. Does one pack towel/kettle/battie/wing collar&spats? or just bring cash, jeans and T-shirt? I do love the cut and thrust of building a beer shield around my gro-bag and then debating the relative lack of dress standards with some bluff old cove! As an old fart myself I'm sure it is no way to carry on, but why should I get excited about dress regs these days when there appears to be little pay back from the firm when it comes to maintaining the ethos of mess life/tradition/standards/behaviour etc etc.
Rant over - bah humbug - Happy New Year to one and all!!

[Spotting Bad Guys]

Aaah, Chicksands. I was there during the rebuild/re-furb and I have to agree with the comments above. It's a wonderful building, reeking in history and the re-furb was done in such a way to bring it up to date (heating, amenities etc) whilst retaining the historical value.

However, there are two major omissions:
1. There is no single room large enough to hold a dining-in night, so you end up in the ridiculous situation of having a formal dinner in three separate rooms!
2. There are not enough rooms in the Mess itself; this has led to SFA being used as Mess overflow accomodation - this is made worse by being poorly looked after and is not a patch on the accomodation in the Mess proper.

An opportunity missed, I feel! It would been so easy to build an additional block to the rear of the Mess whilst the re-furb was being carried out.

Best RAF Mess: Waddington by a country mile.

SBG

[9.81m/s/s]

INDEED ! I am going to stop ranting now too !!!! New year and all that. Mind you I do love explaining to the people with 7 creases in their cuff-linked, tie-pinned starched blue shirts that that my gro-bag is MY WORKING DRESS. Childish I know !

Slainte

9.81m/s/s

[Pontius Navigator]

Gainsy,

The bath of course, but there were not enough baths to go round.

Ah, the good old days with lounge suits on Mondays, Tuesdays and Fridays with sports jackets or blazers at all other times. Remember the look of glee in the anti-room one Saturday morning when Mr Pastry, the Stn Cdr looked in wearing just a pullover. Naturally no one recognised him :} but game on and we started taking our jackets off.

No towels? Seem to remember our dark blue breatheren did issue sheets either unless you were a visitor.

[PerArdua]

I remember a 'Green' mess in the 80's where visitors didn't get knife, fork and spoon as they were issued. Unfortunately the light blue had overlooked this. I had done the whole servery getting the food and then realised. Had to eat Spag Bol with two slices of bread, I suppose it is less of a faux pa than using the wrong fork!!!

PA

[Pontius Navigator]

I normally avoid messes but was, against my better judgement, pursuaded to use a mess at Warminster. Wow, back at least 20 years. Bedspread was overall brown with horizontal stripes - remember them?

Standard G-plan furniture circa 60s with the little bedside draw that your early morning tea would slide off. At least they solved that - no tea.

Standard black rexine covered desk with a top carved by generations of pongos chopping maps.

But the real strength was the ablutions. Bath, turn left and door on the right. Toilet, turn left, through firedoors, entrance hall, firedoors and down the next corriodor. Showers, like toilets as far as the hall then turn the other was through more firedoors.

Guess it didn't matter too much, being a pongo transit mess :}

Next time I am invited to an army mess - no way hozze

[WorkingHard]

Would some kind person post the cost of living in for different ranks please?

[ZH875]

See http://www.mod.uk/linked_files/issues/afprb_rpt2005.pdf Page 48 for details in full

[WorkingHard]

Thanks ZH875. Unless I am not reading the link correctly the SLA for a major and above in GRADE1 is £1862 per annum (£35.80 per week). Let us assume the rank of major or equvalent on at least £50k p.a. I dont think that is an unrealistic charge, do you? In civvy street you would not get a bed sit for that and it may be well worse than the mess with in house dining cheaper drinks free tv etc etc. Am I missing something here? Have I mis-read the figures?

[ZH875]

Re the accomodation, the report also states:

" We were told in evidence that, at April 2004, 89 per cent of occupied SLA worldwide
was below Grade 1 with 49 per cent at the lowest grade (Grade 4). By April 2005,around 7,100 bedspaces are due to be upgraded"

Yes, that is ALMOST HALF of all SLA is at the LOWEST GRADE, with just 11% at Grade 1.

Also, on top of the accomodation charges there is also a Food charge of:

Single charge £24.85 per week
Married unaccompanied charge £18.20 per week.

With the following comment for PAYD:

"PAYD has been “on the horizon” for many years. It is clear from the evidence that there are difficulties to be resolved, not only financial, but in terms of the impact on other areas of Service culture. Having said that, it would be difficult for the Services to reverse the policy at this stage. We look forward to monitoring progress through annual evidence and through our visits and discussions with personnel."

[SirToppamHat]

free tv etc etc

Free TV? Actually paid for (along with TV Licence) by the members (most of whom live out).

TV in your room? Paid for by owner along with TV Licence.

No, the points here are mostly well-made. I was always very suspicious when the 'system' dropped the 'Extra Messing' charges and instead introduced PAYD for lunches. In theory, one was supposed to balance the other, but in practice, the PAYD element was massively more than Extra Messing had ever been.

Blah Alert

What I am not convinced about is the actual basis of the charges in messes and the balance between Public and Non-Public. It seems to me that at one stage in the distant past the majority of mess staff wore blue suits, from the Mess Manager to the batting staff - these were paid for from the public purse, but I doubt whether there was any direct link between what livers-in paid and the actual costs. We now have a system where most mess staff are civilians, and in many cases employed as part of the dreaded contractorised system. Under the former arrangements, mess staff were able to be considered as having a war role, which meant that it could be argued that their existence was not due just to the requirements of the mess members. These days, however, the contractor's (mess staff) costs are all too easy to measure and attribute to the users. One of the things I suspect PAYD is attempting to do (amongst a host of things) is redress is the balance between service and payment - adjustments to pay and allowances are not necessarily under the control of PMA (see 'AFPRB'), but introducing other charges via the back door allows a surreptitious increase in charges that is neither seen nor acted on by the AFPRB.

Blah Alert Terminated

One more thing to add - some of those Mess Managers who were originally WOs, and were retained by the likes of SerCo coming up to retirement. The very best of these have continued to run Messes as they always have - standards maintained, JOs 'advised/looked after' (as appropriate!), and the system used for the benefit of the members etc etc (Boulmer is an excellent example of this). It will be interesting to see what happens as these posts are taken up by those with limited or no experience of messes, and with only the contractor to please - I am sure some of you out there have experience of this and stories to tell ...

STH

Edited to correct bad spellin

[Spotting Bad Guys]

Quote: "PAYD has been “on the horizon” for many years. It is clear from the evidence that there are difficulties to be resolved, not only financial, but in terms of the impact on other areas of Service culture. Having said that, it would be difficult for the Services to reverse the policy at this stage. We look forward to monitoring progress through annual evidence and through our visits and discussions with personnel."

So, having identified that there are financial difficulties and problems with the effect on service culture, we are still pressing ahead with PAYD regardless?
I made the comment some time ago that 'initiatives' like these quickly develop an apparently unstoppable momentum (usually because certain careers have been staked on pushing them though) and in this case, that certainly seems to be true.
At what point do we cry 'uncle' and put a stop to things that are not in the interests of the Service or the individual? I have yet to meet anyone who believes PAYD is an improvement.

SBG

[WorkingHard]

STH - it was just an observation from a civilian and I stand corrected on the TV issue. Is it not true though there are other elements that one simply would not get in civilian life? A single, unfurnished room in a multi ocupied house in Lincolnshire costs around £45.00 per week. Shared kitchen, shared bathrooms, no messing on site, laundry down the road, etc, and no security onsite, nowhere to park the car, drunken yobs shouting about at all times of the night, pay a share of the council tax etc. Sorry but it does still seem a great bargain to live in the mess.

[Biggus]

WH

Yes, it may well be true that there are elements you "simply would not get in civillian life" - but we are not in civillian life!! There are also many negative elements to military life that civillians would not put up with, so kindly don't begrudge us a positive aspect.

I think the main thrust of the comments being made here is about the decrease in standards of messes over recent years - no doubt a phrase like "eroding of differentials" might apply in the civillian world!!

[WorkingHard]

Biggus, I could not agree more about erosion of standards, it is unfortunately rife in all wlks of life. Where the mess is "home" then a high standard really needs to be maintained )and no doubt paid for. I had the impression there were a few complaints about the cost which i though unjustified.

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Why would a self proclaimed civilian be contributing to a messing thread? Here goes, cue WH telling us about how he used to be in the mob, come on WH what were you? When did you last live in the mess? When did you last have to put up with PAYD? Why do you need to know what the rates are for living in members? Then you have the temerity to start saying that we should shut up and put up making banal comparisons with civvy street. I really couldn't give a monkey's if you think that we are complaining about cost, it really has nothing to do with a "civvy".

This is quite typical of WH though, mincing into the mil aircrew forum, disagreeing with people who know better than him claiming that he only wanted to know the facts, when it is quite clear his real motive was to be inflammatory.

[WorkingHard]

Well Ds it certainly inflamed you but that was not my intention. I was merely putting a view forward which I thought we were all entitled so to do. Last time I lived in the mess was 30 years ago so things are very different now. If you dont like "outsiders" contributing to a mil thread then have it closed to all but registered military. Goodbye.

[Pontius Navigator]

I think Workinghard asked a perfectly balanced question. Just because he is a civilian, whose knowledge is dated, does not make his opinion of observations any less valid that military personnel who possibly have not lived in for years and even serve where there is no mess.

The cost to a living-in officer was certainly not visible to me as I ceased to be a professional liver in at the same time as WH. I have however lived in messes from time to time and now do whatever it takes to avoid them. I know others in the same position who will book a mess room at the last possible moment hoping that they will be full.

I remember, during one notorious no-flying suits in the mess period, when Wittering said we would have to stay in the George in Stamford as we did not have civvies. At the time we were on a Pan to land at the nearest airfield. we went to Cottesmore instead. What crap that we could wear filthy growbags in public but not in private. Even Cottesmore said we would have to use the scruffs bar. Instead we joined the GAF crews who were wearing orange growbags in the bar.