pilot X-over II

[run a mile]

Hello again everybody, and a happy X-mas.

Please see the link below for a little background


link (http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=157754&highlight=pilot+Xover)


Now, having successfully passed through the pleasures of IOT, I am looking forward to the beginning of my WSO training.

As it stands I am on an SSC as a WSO. This is great, Train for a bit, couple of tours in the back of a Tornado then away to the airlines till I’m 55. Fantastic, no complaints whatsoever!

Now, in the mean time I cant see anything stopping me from at least asking for a pilot X-over.

I have heard from several ex-navs who are now pilots but they all crossed over once on sqn through their desk officer.

At the moment I am more specifically interested in crossing ASAP, at some point throughout WSO trg.

Can anyone give me details of how best to approach this?

Cheers

RAM

[run a mile]

nice post, raised a couple of good points:

Firstly, the RAF has employed me on an SSC. They have committed to me for 12 years but nothing beyond. No immediate pension etc. also probably no realistic chance of promotion. I'm still going to need employment after this so why not with the airlines? A bit of clever saving now and £60,000 will not be a problem. Maybe even a little resettlement to ease the financial pain.

I passed all pilot aptitudes and medicals at OASC so I will have been considered for pilot at the time. Now, without wanting to sound bitter I did attend OASC three weeks after Hoons cuts at arguably a very difficult time to be offered anything, let alone aircrew. Had I passed through at another time perhaps things would be different.

Finally, from what I have seen of the RAF I like. I look forward to the next 12 years and want to progress as far as I am allowed. But in 2005 as a WSO on a SSC just how far can this be? Sqn ldr at a push Wg cdr, no chance! As a pilot on a PC things would be different.

I am not afraid to ask for a crossover- whatever the consequences. I am not the sort of person that is prepared to dream of what might have been all my life.

[Tigs2]

RAM
best of luck, however i am not sure you already display the committment needed. If you just want to go airlines as your ambitions, then i suggest you leave now and start with them.


This is great, Train for a bit, couple of tours in the back of a Tornado then away to the airlines till I’m 55. Fantastic, no complaints whatsoever!

You havent done your reserch and could be in for a shock. What makes you think the airlines would want you after a couple of tours in the back of a tornado?? I know navs with 6 ooo hours in Muds, air defence and large airframe types that leave, do their ATPL (blowing all savings and gratuities), and are then in a position where they are applying to the airlines with minimum hours, and funny old thing the airlines dont want them. They end up in jobs earning 18-20 grand a year flying in all the organisations nobody else wants. These organisations screw you because they know you are trying to build up hours, but by the time you do, you are way behind the drag curve compared to the rest of the pack. There are a few success stories but it is a very risky strategy.

I wouldnt want a nav in the back of my aircraft who just wants to do a bit of training and then clock his hours up for an unlikely job in airlines. Either commit to what could be a very rewarding and satisfying carreer, or leave now and go to the airlines while you can.

[run a mile]

It seems my flippant two line summary of a hypothetical career as a wso in the RAF has offended.

You are right, if all I wanted to do was fly aircraft then I wouldn't be here. In fact I turned down cadet ship with a major low cost airline to be in the RAF. In fact I would have just about finished line training right about now. Tough decision, no contest.

I want to be pushed mentally and physically both in my training and beyond. Only will I find this in the RAF.

Please, please dont confuse my wanting to explore how I can best manage my LONG TERM career with the RAF with a lack of commitment, it simply isn't true.

RAM

Now, some help with how best to approach a X-over?

[Time Flies]

Run a mile

You are right, if all I wanted to do was fly aircraft then I wouldn't be here.

You have to want to fly aircraft above all else if you wish to make a successful career of flying in the RAF.

If you seriously want to attempt the road of x-over go and see your Flt Cdr, or, if you are holding (likely at this stage) then go and see your reporting officer who will more than likely refer you to JW @ Binsworth He will tell you how to further your application and advise the correct route to follow.

Good luck...I've seen a lot of guys join up with the misconception that once in the RAF they can transfer to pilot from WSO, Ops, ATC etc. Very rare it happens and haven't heard of anyone getting x-over since approx Jul 2004.

TF

[VigilantPilot]

RAM: I don't want to sound harsh, but I think you are hoping for the unobtainable. I do know a few navs who crossed over to pilot, but only once they proved themselves after an operational tour, and found themselves at the right place, right time. As a stude out of cranwell, I really doubt if this is possible - made worse by the current climate.

Nav training is not going to be a breeze - you will have to earn the brevet. In fact, I know more chopped navs and navs that have quit than pilots who have been chopped. It is very hard work and it is a tough course. If you are going to succeed, you are going to have to focus on it and want that nav brevet, not just see it as a route to two wings/the airlines.

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

I agree with Vig,
The RAF barely knows what to do with the pilots it has already hence the huge holds and current restreaming. If you are reasonably young then go off to Nav training and wait for things within pilot training to settle down a bit, prove yourself then go for a crossover. Good luck.
(warning: thread hijack!)
On a different note, anyone know what the chances of a cross over from rotary to multis is? Already done linton so I would be looking for a mets short course.

[VigilantPilot]

Put it this way: Imagine if the powers-that-be backed down to requests for personnel to do what they want - you'd have every man and his dog calling them up asking to be put somewhere else. Hence, I would be very surprised if you got anywhere phoning your desk officer up and saying you'd prefer to be a pilot than a nav, or you'd prefer to fly multis than helicopters.

Crossing over before you've completed training and done something productive isn't going to happen.

In terms of where to go after rotary - the only beaten track back to fixed wing I know of is to a QFI at a UAS or at Linton. Any other rotary pilots going fixed wing I know of have had medical issues.

You've got to look at it this way: if someone had offered you your current position as rotary pilot at OASC, you would have been happy (if you wouldn't have, then its time to quit!!). Flying is flying, and there are great opportunities and exciting flying in all roles - its got to be better to have an office in the sky than sit behind a desk.

[skyhigh]

After reading your post I can understand the reasoning for wanting the cross-over however as a Tornado nav somewhere towards the end of the first tour and considering a pilot cross-over I might be able to shed some of the latest advice. That is, there is almost no hope in hell in you or anyone at your stage AT THE MOMENT getting a pilot cross-over. This is due to there being a back log in the training system of considerable months and there not being enough navs anyway. If I were you, I woudn't even mention it when you get to Tutor's or indeed throughout your training, some of the old and bold see that as not being committed. You'll have a hard enough time anyway. First, pass each course, get streamed FJ, get through the OCU, get on a Sqn and provided you have got that far, at some point in your first tour make some enquiries. Right now, no-one will really take you seriously, especially your poster who doesn't give a sh*t until you are productive.

Concentrate and what your doing now, not some pipe dream.

Skyhigh

[MrBernoulli]

run a mile

You need to seriously consider your motives for what you are about to undertake. I am not sure that you have the mind-set needed to successfully complete your forthcoming training. Take a long, hard look at yourself and your near/mid-term future ..... and commit .... or you will be in for a nasty shock.

[VigilantPilot]

Re-reading your posts, I agree with what has been said. You should be under no illusion that is a lot of hard, taxing work ahead of you in WSO training. IOT is probably the most straightforward/least stressful course you will do - it gets harder IMO. Crossing over will not happen before at least one productive WSO tour.

[Pontius Navigator]

Skyhigh alluded to it, if your nav instructors got wind of your planned career path, and they will if you apply before doing WSO training, they will be 100% cheesed off.

We were given the heads up that one wanabee pilot thought navs were 2nd class citizens. He had a bit of a problem when he was back streamed to nav.

He cleared basics but last I heard he was a Plod.

Best keep your trap shut and ears open until you prove to both yourself and your peers that you are the BEST WSO in the back of the Tornado. If you get on the sqn with the legend that you are only there for the ride no one will want to know.

[hotshots!]

Run a mile,

I would love to be able to help but all I find my self thinking is:

"bzzzzzzzzz, shut up and get some time in!"

:D

[Pontius Navigator]

Run a Mile,

One other thing, congratulations on passing IOT, that is 2 hurdles done but now it gets much harder. At IOT they aim to get you all through having nurtured the potential you demonstrated at OASC.

In flying training the aim is to make safety second nature, navigation natural and develop you to such a point that you have a little spare capacity.

The next big jump comes on the OCU where they want to make sure that your learning rate is adequate. If you are a slow learner then your first combat mission may not be long enough for you to learn.

Aptitude, skill, capacity and a desire to succeed, that is what you will need.

[BEagle]

Firstly, did you pass the pilot aptitude and medical selection criteria? If yes, but there weren't any slots available, it is not unreasonable for you to want to cross-over.

But if you didn't, then you probably have little or no chance of crossing over in the current era. So, do the best you can during WSO training and spend some money getting a PPL once you've reached Combat Ready status on your squadron. Then build up your pilot-in-command hours during your time in the RAF so that you will be able to start a modular CPL/IR when it's time to leave. For example, perhaps become the O i/c of your RAFFCA flying club when the secondary duty lists come round and do something constructive which will be of direct use both to yourself and to others, rather than just being O i/c barrack block G62 or Officers' Mess House Member.

But above all, don't be a reluctant WSO/fightergator/GIB/Talking TACAN or whatever the latest banter term is. Stick with it, do the best you can in the back, but work towards your ultimate civil airline at mid-30s goal in a constructive manner. Yes, it will cost you - but not as much as spending your gratuity on a self-funded integrated CPL/IR would.

Although why anyone would want to be locked in a cupboard with a stranger for 2 hours a time, 5 times a day, 5 days per week is frankly beyond me. Particularly when all you end up doing is exporting pi$$ed up chavs and shell-suited OAPs to Argos, Domestos and Asbestos to drink themselves senseless. The glamour of international air travel is sadly of a bygone era.

[AllTrimDoubt]

Particularly when all you end up doing is exporting pi$$ed up chavs and shell-suited OAPs to Argos, Domestos and Asbestos to drink themselves senseless. The glamour of international air travel is sadly of a bygone era.

Spot on BEags!

[Pontius Navigator]

Having been SLF on Thomas Cook, the airline does nothing to make you love the pilots. An inch more leg room would have helped.

Home bound they didn't switch on the GPS display. Also we were refuelling while emplanning so Biggles told us NOT to strap in. Only thing is he left the fasten seat belts light on.

Maybe he had too much to think about.

[PPRuNeUser0172]

RAM

I am pretty certain you are trying to convince yourself that you are happy with the situation you found yourself in rather than us, and making glib comments about a couple of tours in the back of a tonka is only going to p!ss the majority off due to your assumptions of success. You have a LONG way to go before you get anywhere near the swing-wing dream.

I can guarantee one way that you wont get a pilot x over is if you go on about it throughout nav training.

There are pilots holding all over the joint at the moment, and there are several very experienced/capable navs ahead of you in the queue my old.

Nose to the grindstone.......

[ProfessionalStudent]

Runamile...

You have a PM...

[MrBernoulli]

Pontius Nav, What has leg-room got to do with the pilots?

[wingstoosmall]

RAM

I have been an observer of these pages for a few years now but something in this thread has finally broken the camel's back and forced me to sound off.

Well done on being accepted for nav training, I'm sure you will find it both difficult and very rewarding.

With regard to a 2-wing crossover - It's very bold of you to declare your intentions openly in this environment and I wish you the very best of luck. You must however be aware of the some problems; The RAF is currently 'fat' for pilots and a hold for trainee pilots has subsequently built up which makes the case fo a crossover far more difficult than when I went through training 4 or 5 years ago, when there were many navs retraining, most of whom (but not all) had already been combat ready as a navigator.

You should also not be disheartened by the banter you have received on this thread. There are an awful lot of cynical, unhelpful, unencouraging opinions on these pages, however you must be aware that these attitudes are only too common and as such it would make sense to be guarded with your clearly intelligent, positive ambitions and arguments. It's sad but an outspoken, ambitious and honest man will often be taken down by the small minded point-scoring dross around him.

Once again, good luck and should you need any help then please pm me(believe me I am in a good position to advise on such).

wings

[ProfessionalStudent]

Run a mile

Wingstoosmall is right. If you bide your time and become good at the nav thing, it will come - it did to me.

You have been lucky enough to be one of (apparently) 17 WSOs selected this year and as such have a chance to go out and impress people. Keep your nose to the grindstone and your desires of crossovers to yourself and I'm sure you'll do well. Nothing will annoy the old-school guys that are teaching in the WSO world more than a young upstart (that'll be their choice of words) who really has his eyes set on the other seat already.

You will find Tucs challenging and LLTS (or whatever they call FJ lead-in Doms these days) equally, if not more so. Just strive to do the best you can at every stage and see what happens. Those that have been around for some time in this outfit know that all these things are cyclical and maybe within 3 years the RAF will be short of pilots and you'll get your chance. If that IS the case, you'll need to be one of the best WSOs around to bag a place.

SO, the chances of you crossing over to be a pilot in the short term are about as great as Elvis being your QPNI on Tucanos and Lord Lucan your Flt Cdr, but lots of effort and commitment now, should well pay dividends in the long run.

As for those who think Runamile's ambition shows lack of commitment, I joined the RAF as one thing but always wanted to be a pilot, and frankly was fairly bitter about it. Although it was always my ambition to get that crossover (and I let people know when I arrived on my first frontline unit), it didn't stop me being fully commited to my job at the time and being quite good at it. Maybe his posting here shows a little naivety (how many of us would have used something similar if the interweb had been invented?), but if he comes out of the other side better informed, then so what?