F15 pilots - world's best? - discuss.

[Boogeyboard]

12:21:05
(c) 2005. The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.
TYNDALL AIR FORCE BASE, Fla. (AP) - The Air Force's new F-22A Raptor is such a dominant fighter jet that in mock dogfights its pilots typically take on six F-15 Eagles at once.
Despite the favorable odds, the F-15s, still one of the world's most capable fighters, are no contest for the fastest radar-evading stealth jet ever built.
"The F-15 pilots, they are the world's best pilots," said Lt. Col. David Krumm, an F-22A instructor pilot. "When you take them flying against anyone else in the world, they are going to wipe the floor with them. It's a startling moment for them to come down here and get waylaid."


Discuss.

[nutcracker43]

Globetrotter,

Their recent performance against elements of the Indian Air Force would seem to suggest something quite different.

NC43

[speeddial]

When the pilots are given the tools they are trained to use, in the environments they train to fight in history shows they are unbeatable.

That was not the case in India (or with the F-15Es and the Typhoons *yawn)*.

[LateArmLive]

I would take what you read in the press with a large pinch of salt, after all, they're hardly going to say their new wonder toy is rubbish.
If the F22 is taking on 6 F15s in a visual merge and winning then I will eat my head! Have you ever seen a man eat his own head?

[Mmmmnice]

one could probably kick this one around all day long and get nowhere near the truth - using anything written in the press is certainly not going to help! I'm not, and never have been, an Eagle driver - but I bet mine is bigger than yours! let the debate rage

[Redcarpet]

Late Arm Live NEVER EVER eat anything as big as your head. ;)

[brickhistory]

"Kooler" Krum actually was probably one of the best F-15 drivers around, hence his selection for the F-22 introduction to service.

ALL F-15 pilots being the best - nope. Many are, certainly not all. Same as for any airframe - you're going to have a group of absolutely outstanding pilots, a group of competent ones, and a smaller group of "how the hell did you get in here?!" ones.

Probably the best F-15 force - the IDF/AF

[Ewan Whosearmy]

NC43

I take it that you missed the strong political undertones behind the release of the Cope India results *by Indian Air Force sources*? Asides from which, have you ever heard of 'cuffs'?

[Jackonicko]

They may well be the best, but they are probably not the best trained, nor the most adaptable.

With regard to Cope India

"..............Publicly, senior USAF officers generalised about what had happened. "What we faced were superior numbers, and an IAF pilot who was very proficient in his aircraft and smart on tactics. That combination was tough for us to overcome," said Colonel Greg Neubeck, exercise director and deputy commander of the 3rd Wing's Operations Group.

“From what we've seen in the last two weeks is, the IAF can stand toe-to-toe with best AF in the world. I pity the pilot who has to face the IAF and chances the day to underestimate him; because he won't be going home. The (Indian) pilots are as aggressive as our pilots. They are excellent aviators; they work very hard at mission planning; they try to get as much out of a mission or sortie as possible, just like us. From one fighter pilot to another, there's really not that much difference in how we prepare for a mission and what we want to get out of it.”

Training
While the USAF's warm remarks about the parity between Indian and US pilots seemed superficially generous, they may not have been generous enough. All the evidence from Cope India suggests that the Indian pilots might actually be better trained and better skilled than their USAF counterparts, and not merely their equals.

This should have come as no surprise to the USAF, since the Indian Air Force has a long and proud history, has been to war (against a 'quality opponent' four times since 1945) and maintains a high state of operational readiness, ready to react should tension with Pakistan or China explode into conflict. And because of this conflict, and because of the risk of war, the IAF is well-equipped and generously funded. Indian pilots actually fly almost twice as many hours per month as their USAF counterparts. Moreover, much more of that flying is undertaken under operational conditions, and Indian pilots train against other Indian pilots who don't try to simulate an inferior threat, but who simply do their best to win. In effect, Indian pilots train against the best, reasoning that lesser opponents will pose less of a problem if you can beat the finest!

By comparison, the way in which the USAF trains against a 'Red air' threat is rather less 'challenging'.

For many years the USAF has assumed that its fighters and fighter pilots are more capable than enemy aircraft and aircrew, and so in order to achieve 'realism' the US Air Force has simulated enemy capability by using 'enemy' forces ('Red Air') who deliberately use the tactics of 'real-world' threat air forces, and who operate under rules that intentionally constrain their combat capability.

After Cope India, shocked USAF pilots admitted that they had problems with the Indian simulated active missile threat because they had not routinely trained against launch-and-leave threats. They also admitted that they had underestimated the training and tactics of the Indian pilots.

A senior USAF officer said that: "The Air Force is re-examining, from what I can understand, our concept of red air and how we might be able to provide red air to our fighter forces so that we get [the best] training we can afford." The USAF's exercise leader admitted that the USAF needed to "take off the handcuffs that we put on our red air training aids and allow them to be more aggressive and make the red air tougher than we have in the past."

The Indian Air Force report into the exercise was never intended for publication, but details have become known. The document was reportedly highly critical of its USAF adversaries. The Indian aviation magazine 'Vayu' reported that the report had noted a number of weaknesses in the USAF pilots, including an 'absence of initiative', 'blind obedience to rehearsed scenarios', and a 'lack of adaptability'.

Tactics
Though training plays a part in air combat success, tactics are equally important. During Cope India, the USAF found itself saddled with tactics that were ineffective, and facing an enemy whose tactical flexibility proved hard to counter.

Major Mark A. Snowden, the 3rd Wing's chief of air-to-air tactics and one of the USAF pilots who participated in Cope India, later spoke admiringly about the way in which Indian Air Force planners never repeated failed tactics and praised their ability to rapidly change tactics as new opportunities became available.

“The outcome of the exercise boils down to the fact that they ran tactics that were more advanced than we expected. They could come up with a game plan, but if it wasn't working they would call an audible and change tactics in flight. They were adept at mixing things up and never provided the same tactical 'look'. They would analyze what we were doing and then try something else. They weren't afraid to bring the strikers in high or low. They would move them around so that we could never anticipate from day to day what we were going to see.”

By comparison, the USAF failed to surprise the Indians, relying on the simple expedient of putting up a 'wall' of four F-15s between the enemy and the target. This is a tactic that has proved useful against other adversaries, but it relies on the use of long-range missiles with greater reach than those employed by the enemy - and this is something the USAF could not rely on in Cope India.

“We didn't have the beyond-visual-range shot or the numerical advantage.” Stockwell said. “Eventually we were just worn down by the numbers. They were very smart about it. Their goal was to get to a target area, engage the target and then withdraw without prolonging the fight. If there were a couple of Eagles still alive away from the target area, they would keep them pinned in, get done with the target and then egress with all their forces. All their aircraft seemed to be capable of breaking out targets and shooting at the ranges the exercise allowed............"

[brickhistory]

I'd still put my money on USAF vs. IAF where things actually go 'boom.'

But that's just me.........
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Back in '95(?), at a Cope Tiger in Thailand, I was controlling 'Red Air' when one of my guys made the call of "Kill, F-15, blah, blah, blah" from a RNZAF A-4 came across. Kind of hard to explain that one too. But it was great to see a humbled Eagle driver at the bar for once!

[SASless]

Some observations....

Since when does a fighter pilot say the other guy is the best fighter pilot in the world? If I hear that....everything else following that is going to be a lie too.

When you begin to believe your own propaganda....you are going to get yer ass kicked!

One of the rules of combat...."Never...Never....Never...under-estimate your enemies ability!"

You fight the way you are trained.

The US Army did away with scripted training exercises a long time ago....units go to Fort Irwin and engage in free flowing combat exercises....sometimes they beat the agressors...sometimes they do not. You learn from getting your ass kicked in training.

Equipment is only one part of the equation....guts and smarts are the other parts.

You reckon years of thinking you are the best....might not measure up to trying to be the best? Pride goes before a fall... as I was taught a long time ago.

[sikeano]

top marks to sasless

:ok:

[Onan the Clumsy]

I pity the pilot who has to face the IAF and chances the day to underestimate him; because he won't be going home. I went to an Indian restaurant once and didn't make it home :yuk:



When you begin to believe your own propaganda....you are going to get yer ass kicked!

One of the rules of combat...."Never...Never....Never...under-estimate your enemies ability!"
subtely ironic :hmm:

[Worf]

Just to make it clear - NONE of the comments that were made about the skill of the Indian Air Force pilots came from anybody on the Indian side. All comments were picked up from the US news media and THEN circulated in the Indian media.

The IAF pilots I have talked to (including Mirage 2000/Mig 29/Jaguar/Mig-23/27 pilots) are embarrassed and dismayed by all this. They think it paints a false picture in many ways - and dont want to talk about it other than saying that they get paid to do a job.

I guess we come from a tradition (forced on us or otherwise!) of British reticence rather than American extroversion!

Worf

[Onan the Clumsy]

Just think though, if the Indian pilots ARE better than the American ones :E it's yet another job that can be outsourced :ooh:

[Evert]

Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the undisputed king of air superiority had to surrender its thirty-year crown to a newcomer. It happened over the skies of Windermere, in the scenic English Lake District. Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters were on the first RAF formation training flight from Warton Aerodrome when they were bounced from the eight o'clock by a couple of F-15Es belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW, probably the most formidable and experienced combat unit in the European theatre. The Typhoon crew did not seem to be intimidated and with two rapid counters ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one, who was in full afterburner, wings rocking and wondering what had happened.

It is fair to expect that the most surprised by this first encounter result would be the F15 crew, used to dominate the skies since the mid-seventies and with an exchange ratio record of 101 wins to zero losses, and a bunch of die-hard Eurofighter critics without much knowledge of the new fighter air combat capabilities. It is understandable if the RAF rookies would also show their surprise at the outcome, as one does not expect to win an air engagement on the first training sortie with a brand new machine against one of the best combat units in the world, riding what up to now has been the best fighter in history.

But that is history now!

Those definitely not surprised by what the events over the Lake District skies signify are the top echelon in the Air Combat Command, the Chief of Staff and the RAND Corp. analysts and boffins. They have been saying for years that the F-15 is no match to the new generation of European fighters and even to the Su-35 Flanker. They know what they say: their operational analyses studies and other simulated evaluations-as indeed have ours, both at the industry and government level-have shown that the F-15 is unable to gain air superiority against Eurofighter Typhoon. Now they have the first real indication that their worries were not unjustified and that the F/A-22 was the right choice, if they want to maintain the air superiority also in the future.


This message was also on the BBC site, but I can't find the link :(
But nevertheless it's a great story :p

[RileyDove]

Nice story - Only problem is that we only have a few Eurofrighteners at present and the USAF probably have more F-15's sat in the desert let alone in squadron service !
I guess with the Saudi's taking a load of the RAF's it will save RAF Squadrons deploying to the Middle East sandpit.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Typical bolleaux from the BBC. WHen are they going to hire a defence reporter who knows how to qualify a story?

I don't think that there are many who would dispute that the Eurofighter should be kicking the butt of any F-15E (clearly though, the BBC does not know the difference between the F-15 Eagle and the F-15E Strike Eagle, the latter of which is not the 'undisputed king of air superiority', but is probably the undisputed king of putting iron on target).

Despite this being and old, old story, I'll give you a few quotes from a Strike Eagle mate (flying out of Lakenheath at the time) to add balance:

Best fighter in the world? I love my aircraft, but I don't even regard it as the best fighter in the world (not for WVR fights). This reporter is a sensationalist tool. If the Strike Eagles were visual I guarantee you that they had already locked on and fired. This occurred under a UK program called Fighting Edge which says that anyone squawking Mode 1-11 agrees to be targeted by any other aircraft - low level or medium altitude. Fighting Edge has training rules which are almost identical to 11-214 A/A training rules, one of which calls for limiting maneuvering (no more than 180 degrees of turn) for any Target of Opportunity attacks. By virtue of bragging (able to maneuver to the F-15E's six o'clock), the Brits have openly admitted to breaking Fighting Edge training rules. Not too smart.

[Magp1e]

Simple.....Harrier.

[D-IFF_ident]

The best pilots in the world probably fly 747-400s, or some other large airliner. The best weapons platform operators in the world? - Probably the Israelis...

US F-15 pilots the best? no

[Flap62]

The best pilots in the world probably fly any type you care to mention. Glider pilots, crop dusters 747-400's, Harrier, F3 - who knows. The best pilots are not confined to one type. I've hosed F15s that were in the middle of the fight with no SA and similarly been hosed by too many types to mention!!

I still think it's a healthy attitude to walk into any crew room and quietly think - "I reckon I'm probably better than all of you" the same way that top athletes have to think the same. The key word is "quietly". If you have to say it, then you probably ain't!!

[torque dirty to me]

Lads and ladettes!

A bit of seasonal goodwill!
You can't name best pilot these days! We're all specialists in our own areas.
Could I throw a fighter jet round at 20,000 ft and shoot some other bugger down? Could I bollocks! Could a jet jockey take my sweet whirly bird downwind to a confined area with two foot clearance round the rotor disc? Not if his arse depended on it!
Who needs to be the best anyway.
I'm currently still Landings = Takeoffs and I'm seeing my little boy in the morning. Happy!

Merry Christmas Everybody (even F15 pilots!)
and a Very Happy New Year

T

[SASless]

Having fighter pilots look up to you...no big deal. They do it all the time when riding my winch wire! (....and gladly too I might add!)

[Ewan Whosearmy]

The best pilots in the world probably fly 747-400s, or some other large airliner. The best weapons platform operators in the world? - Probably the Israelis...

Well, that's it then. No need for qualification or examples to back the argument up. The best pilots are Israeli 747-400 drivers. Thanks for the informed contribution.

[wessex19]

the RAAF pilots can hold there own. And they know how to fly also!!!!!!:ok:

[TruBlu351]

Well said wessex ;)

I've got plenty of F-15 HUD footage under the pipper!! Pitty I can't post it up!

F-15's are great at BVR stuff....their radars are good, I'll give them that, but in the visual arena, well.....I liken them to a flying tennis court!......big bullet catcher ;)

[luvmuhud]

TruBlu351 - there's only one dude I can think of with both F15 footage and a love of 351s!!!! - I can still vividly remember those trips to work with the earplugs in!

When are you coming back to something with a HUD????

[northernmonkey]

Is it wrong that I'm still chuckling at the thought of the chap eating his own head? :D

[Suvarnabhumi]

When US Congress is threatening to cut both F22 and JSF projects, what better way to ensure these multi $Billion projects' survival than to hype up the need for an F15 replacement?

"Hell yeah we really do need that cold war concept F22 now we are getting smoked by those pesky Indians, Brits etc etc!" Typical quote by Texan Republican Senator Mr LockheedMartin.

What are a 4-ship of F22's gonna do against a kid with a claymore blowing up a Hummer?

Why oh why didn't I buy shares in Lockheed, Halliburton Corp, The Carlyle Group etc etc!!!!

[Load Toad]

>Suvarnabhumi

Good point.


The problem is not winning air superiority. Nor is it dropping bombs down small holes. Nor is it flying around at fifty twelve feet and taking pictures. Nor is it blowing up tanks....

The problem now and for the next 40 years is very simple..

Stop 'them' wanting to blow the poor bloody infantry and the civilians brains all over the shop.

Yer F-22 will be great. No doubt. And no doubt no terrorist will ever get within 500 miles of one. And what if he did? Big deal.

[SASless]

Toad,

There is a small country called China...a smaller country called Russia....and a few others out there who might be quiet...but who are not tame.

We always seem to fight the current war using the last war's equipment and tactics....

Remember some places called Singapore, Bataan, Dunkirk....The Somme.....The Falklands?

[Load Toad]

So this war; did we see it coming? What weapons for which war are we fighting it with? If our 'intelligence' or our political motivation are anything to go by then it isn't our weapons that are the issue. Nor is it the qualities of the services.
We were not prepared for this war because it was ignored that whilst 'we' are now the most pow(d)erful nation(s) on earth we are also the most gullible, naive and selfish.

I'm a bit drunk but frankly the politicians owe the armed forces not only the best weapons and infrastructure to fight they also have the greatest responsibility for making sure the forces do not have to do what they are trained for.

What that had to do with an F-15 or whatever I don't know...

Happy New Year.

[brickhistory]

I don't doubt there is some truth to various comments about downplaying the F-15's effectiveness in order to plump up the arguements for buying F-22s and F-35s, but one fact remains:

The F-15C is getting long in the tooth. It does need to be replaced.

Nickname of the 67th FS at Kadena AB is supposed to be the "Fighting Cocks," instead the stickboys refer to themselves as "Jurassiac Cocks."

[FJJP]

There's no guarantee that in the next Allied adventure the Services will be faced with the same air opposition as Bosnia and Iraq. It is quite feasible that the country/coalition we'll be facing has been supplied with sophisticated aircraft that's on a par with the current generation of our jets. The USAF found the IAF a formidable enemy during the latest exercise.

It is a mistake to rest on your laurals - telling yourself and your countrymen that you are finest in the world does not necessarily make it so. I believe the US is right to get ahead with the latest.

For a number of reasons. Firstly, there is survivability. The people back home do not like bodies in bags - they like them in victory parades. Then there is the ability to hit your target undetected - witness the success of the F117 in GW1. And then there is the need to produce accuracy stats like never before been required; precision bombing to the foot in all weathers requires a high degree of sophistication in your technology. All the while guarding against the cleaner pulling the plug to plug in the vaccuum cleaner [robustness].

Of course it all comes at a price, and there's the rub. It is down to the politicians to figure out how many bodies they can survive politically without them losing too much popularity. After all, if you carefully ask the question, you'll get the answer you want [like - 'what would you rather spend your money on - killing people or paying less tax?'] You get the drift...

[pigfist]

Best pilots,

Tim Taylor and Stiggins. Nice blokes too.

[ORAC]

F15 pilots - world's best? - discuss.

BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4694932.stm) - The AAIB report went on: "Inadequate transmission and acknowledgements of clearances within the formation plus the crews' inability to fly either as a coherent formation or as two independent aircraft during the diversion were major contributory factors to the ensuing general confusion".

"Also poor use was made of the highly sophisticated aids available to the crews in monitoring fuel loads, monitoring ground position and using airborne radar."

:hmm:

[Pontius Navigator]

And to raise the other argument, these were [I]single[I] seat aircraft.

Is the two-seat argument really done and dusted?

[ORAC]

Err, as far as I'm aware, all F-15E Strike Eagles carry mobile baggage behind the pilot.......

[BEagle]

Actually, they were reported to be F-15Es....

The Mud Hen is, of course, a 2-seater, probably the most sophisticated fighter bomber in the world.

This does not seem to have been a starring moment for the crews involved; however, we have yet to learn their side of the story.

[ORAC]

AAIB Report (http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/february_2006/embraer_emb_145eu__g_embe_and_two_mcdonnell_douglas_f15e_eag le_aircraft.cfm)

[Pontius Navigator]

ORAC, I think you are confusing threads. We are talking fighters not crashes. The AAIB report, I guess, refers to the issue of 2 single seat jets flying into the ground.

The T-bag-F15E incident, as Beags pointed out was actually two pair of single seaters too.

The issue then is would the additional supercargo have made a difference? True there have been incidents of aircraft with supercargo flying into the ground as indeed there have of Jaguars before they got the INAS fixed.

[ORAC]

Nope, it refers to two, twin seat, F-15Es having an airprox on a diversion from LK to VY. Reading before posting helps prevent embarrassment....

[RayDarr]

So, this morning we here of an airmiss caused by 2 x USAF F15's. as a result of poor R/T and lack of knowledge of UK ATC proceedures by the aircrew. Our ATC friends are not absolved either. An earlier thread talks of 2 guys killed when they flew into a stuffed cloud. Again poor proceedures by the USAF aircrew and confusion by our ATC. A little while ago we hear about USAF tanking over Norwich, and the ATC/FC not sure if this is allowed or not.
This is starting to cause be some unease as we are finding holes in our knowledge, training and professionalism. (provocative statement I know). Is this being picked up by the "big wheels" and is anything being done.
I am sure I will be told that an investigation has resulted in improvements, but with respect, I have heard all that guff before. What can be shown to have changed as a result of these events that will result in safer operations in UK airspace?

[Roadtrip]

What a stupid discussion. Did you ever meet any fighter pilot of any nationality that didn't think they were "the best?" Also, training exercises aren't there to prove who's "best." They're for training. Actual combat operations would be quite different and may employ tactics, techniques, and equipment that is not used in training exercises.

Give it a rest guys. The US bashing, while somewhat satisfying for some people, is very trite and tiresome by now. Think of something original and fresh for a change.

[southside]

Not sure about F15 jocks but (and as a Lynx puke it pains me to say this) without doubt the best RW jocks are the Chinook boys - especially those mad fellas at 7sqn. Very punchy, professional and slick. Their only drawvback is their social skills.

[Out Of Trim]

I would hazard a guess that, the main problem here - is lack of airspace education given to the US Crews that arrive in the UK.

We have some very crowded and complicated airspace for them to navigate and they obviously need some help here!

It would appear that reading between the lines, that they used to get a thorough briefing from the RAF in years gone by to indicate the differences in UK airspace and how the RIS / RAS effect their flights compared to that they were used to in the USA.

Bring that briefing and education back guys.. It's got to be worthwhile and will help them out!

However, with regard to the latest airmiss; it would appear that there were many links in the chain that lead to a major cock-up.. Lakenheath ATC caused a further problem with the lie about no delay and did not pass full details of squawk and Flt Level restriction from Lon Mil.

When the Flight lead decided to divert he should have positively taken back the Flight lead role and have his wingman understand that and act as a flight and not two singletons / loose flight.

All this time, what were the Wso rear seater crew doing to help? It appears they were just along for the ride! It doesn't appear that they were helping much. Do they not have a role in helping monitor the flight and assist the pilot with Nav etc. Obviously they could be head down and use the F-15Es kit to help the situation.

Finally, was RAF Valley really the nearest suitable diversion airfield for these two aircraft?

Perhaps, with the rapid closure of RAF bases around the country; suitable diversion airfields are becoming very few and far between!

[Boogeyboard]

Roadtrip

From post one:

"The F-15 pilots, they are the world's best pilots," said Lt. Col. David Krumm, an F-22A instructor pilot. "When you take them flying against anyone else in the world, they are going to wipe the floor with them.


Why not 'discuss' the Col's opinion. Unquestionable is it?