Time to give up!

[rbr919]

I qualfied from one of the three top schools in February this year as a modular student, I have all first time passes in my ATPLs (average 92%) and for my CPL & IR. I have over 120 hours multi-engine time and over 100 hours IFR and hold a NZ CPL & IR.
I am well educated to degree standard and prior to flying held a good position in management in the City. I have applied to every airline in the UK and virtually everyone in Europe...without even a sniff of a job.

All I have received is complete ignorance from the majority of the airlines, so when i read about people on this site say things like oh get a jet job its easy I know that they are extremely lucky but do not realise it.

I have tried everything(airlines, air taxi, para dropping, tug etc etc), I cannot afford a TR or an instructors course, indeed 2 airlines have told me that I am too old, so going instructing for 2 years (even if I could afford too) is not an option.

What gets me is that these airlines and my flying school told me several years ago that i would have been accepted. So we have an industry with changing goal posts, but because we all spend hugh amounts of money, can we afford to have an industry with moving goal posts...NO!

So I have tried everything, but to no avail. I cannot even afford to stay current. So I am bowing out of trying to find a job in aviation and good ridence to the industry because they were all my friends when i had a hugh pile of cash in my hand and now they do not want to know. I believe this industry is the most old fashioned pre-historic unprofessional industry around and it is full of liars and people who are too scared or too blinkered to look any further than OAT Integrated!
This industry has had my £50,000+ and treated me appaulingly, I can hack it no more, good luck to all the future mugs, good luck to all those who are still looking and for those in employment make sure that you thank your lucky stars because unfortunately you do not know how lucky you are!

[haughtney1]

RBR....I understand your frustration completely, just when you think things couldnt get any worse..wham you get a kick in the teeth:confused:
The trouble is mate, the first 1000 hours in your logbook will be the hardest you will have to get, for loads of us (me included) scrimping and scraping, working 3 jobs (loading a truck, cleaning at an airport, and landscaping) to the tune of 18hrs a day, just to get through to the weekend where I could tow a glider or two and drop a skydiver.
The point Im making is this, I do realise how lucky I am, and like you I dont fit the profile of the "ideal" early 20's airline pilot...infact the whole thing was 7yrs of bloody hard work.
The opportunities are still about if you want to go out and get them (sorry if you dont think this way..but they are there) goodluck in whatever you decide to do, but if you got into aviation thinking money spent=a job you would be mistaken 9 times out of 10
Airlines want candidates who are dedicated and enthusiastic..all you need is a break, and ultimately its the law of averages:ok:

[KLM_MD11]

rbr919, I can on some level feel fustration for you. It is a cruel industry that can have alot of snakes, backstabbers and liars. So in turn you have to be ruthless and take no crap if you want to get somewhere in my opinion.

If you have enough motivation, do you consider moving abroad somewhere other than around Europe? There just has to be something for you. I would hate to hear you have totaly given up because I think you know deep down inside that there is a chance for you.

Good luck in what ever decision you make.

[1CCCC]

rbr919, Can I ask how old you are and what age you started your training?

[corklad]

sorry to hear your plight. i myself have been there and know what its like. i have been to schools that went bust, had money taken from me in false pretense to name a few of the pit falls i've suffered. i struggled and scrapped to get to get close to the 1000hr mark over the yrs and build up some multi time. i applied to every company on the planet and always got the same response...."you have no type rating on the aircraft we fly....cannot proceed with your application". i went to the states and got a type rating for the same price as 15 hrs senneca time at my local fto. and managed to get a job last month as a result. i know some people disagree with paying for types but i had already paid my dues and built my hrs but still i heard nothing. i was near to poverty line so threw on last go at the aviation dice.
The industry in europe is very unethetical at best. it is based on the top 5% at oxford or cabair that fit the profile, the odd instructor or two and any female in the school who will get the jobs. the rest are cast aside with out a second thought. the rest of the world is more "old school" ie you need the hours before you can even think of applying...and increasingly you need a type. The US is still the fairest country in terms of training and employment, no type rating or mcc courses etc as its all done in-house. The obvious downside is that you need a greencard to work there, and the pay isnt great till you get into a major, though the pay here isnt super either. I noticed you had a NZ license too...is there anyway you could use that in south east asia...ie malaysia or indonesia or china??? u can get a type rating for a very reasonable price in canada or the us. or even do some hrs building there? there are alternatives, but i dont think europe is the place for you to find a job right now?? i wish you luck, because i know how ****ty it is.

[flybyshark]

I am with Haughtney on this, its rough and nasty and basically the hardest thing you will ever do, no, not pass your IR, getting the first job!

I wouldnt be thinking its time for the airlines to give me a job as yes, the goal posts have changed. But, if you have held a job in the city then you know how to network, how to put yourself in a position to be of use to someone and ultimately yourself.

My path has followed virtually the same as yours and I have been converted from kiwi cpl to jaa fATPL for almost 4 months now.

In this time I have managed to speak to the right people at the wrong time in 3 airlines! It sucks but at least I got to talk 'work' and left the door open for the future, but I have to accept that the goal posts could change again in that time, for better or worse. The biggest kick has been the change to 1000 hours being classed as the low hours pilot!

So my focus is gettting twin work, any work and if its a nice company, after they will be giving me a break, then I will commit to them for a period that is in fact longer than what the common 20-24 year old OAT/Cabair integrated student is commiting to ops like Citi, flybe and even the jet charters i.e. 2 years average!

But in the long run I am happy in that I have managed to secure work in a company doing project work for an Aviation manfacturer, they have a flying club that offers fantastic planes and instructors at a great rate so I can keep current and whats more do flyaways and maybe even do my aero rating.

It keeps me in the business. Alittle different to Haughtney but I reckon the same method, get in the industry by any means, perform and be dedicated.

A friend of mine has been in ops for a charter for several years, missed out on a couple of breaks, but then decided to do his atpls's and then the cpl/meir and mcc, he must have camped outside the offices of the flight crewing offices because he has now got a dream rhs airbus position.

The point above all else I guess is that I was on a modular course and several guys now have positions, already. Not integrated, these are modular. This wouldnt have happened the year before.

They are (to me), in dream jobs and in a few eyars I will be there too but then again I may remain in the first role I get depending on the conditions, because at the end of the day I need the atpl unfrozen asap and if its happening in a small operator that is treating me well and paying me enough to keep the wolves at bay then I will bless them and say ta very much guvnor until cows come home.

two years ago I was passing my kiwi ppl in Toma(terror)hawk and now I am back here earning almost the same money as when I left the uk flying instrument rated planes for fun twice a month and still firing off the dozen cv's a week (and believe me I dont think thats enough).

I have sold my house, dragged my wife around the world and lived on baked beans.
It is really really difficult to keep the proverbial chin up. But last week I managed to get talking to small op I would really like to work at, there was no promises but they could be interested. I have been sending my cv to them for four months, leaving phones messages every two weeks.

It cheered me up no end I can tell you.

I may even have a merry xmas! We all dream, thats why we are here!

You said you worked in the City, I had a Manager from a job I had there once, he said "stop dreaming and get earning" grumpy bugger but he has a point.

If I hadnt got the job I have now I would be all over the flight ops of each company asking for an ops job, I even applied to first choice the other week for their two positions.

So cheer up, dont turn your back and remember there are a hell of a lot more grumpy buggers out there that feel like giving up.

Merry Xmas all!

[Pilot Pete]

Sorry to play Devil's Advocate, but;
What gets me is that these airlines and my flying school told me several years ago that i would have been accepted. Accepted as what? A Student or an airline pilot? So what, you freely admit the info was from 'several years ago'. The market is constantly changing and right now it is probably the best it has been for 'several years'.
All I have received is complete ignorance from the majority of the airlines If you mean 'indifference' I can believe it. So has everyone else with your hours. You must realise that you are ten-a-penny and if your age is not on your side then you can't blame anyone else for that. Why didn't you really find out the truth before you started rather than relying on flight schools and airlines and their associated vested interests?
I believe this industry is the most old fashioned pre-historic unprofessional industry around and it is full of liars and people who are too scared or too blinkered to look any further than OAT Integrated! Again, your ignorance of the facts before you parted with such a huge amount of cash does leave me with raised eyebrows. I and many others realised what we were letting ourselves in for before we parted with our cash.
So we have an industry with changing goal posts, but because we all spend hugh amounts of money, can we afford to have an industry with moving goal posts...NO! Market forces and progress (such as paying for a type rating). The industry is just adjusting to the demand. Once young pilots stop paying then the airlines will stop demanding.
This industry has had my £50,000+ and treated me appaulingly What, by selling you the training courses you were keen to do and then the airlines not employing you? There were no guarantees, and if there were then sue the employer who promised you a job. It's the same for everyone.
I cannot afford a TR or an instructors course As can't the majority of people doing them. If you didn't plan for what you were going to do after getting your 200 odd hours when no airline job arose then again, perhaps you should have delved a little deeper and thought a little harder. You can't blame the industry or anyone else for that. Everyone else has faced the same.
I have applied to every airline in the UK and virtually everyone in Europe...without even a sniff of a job. Yeah, haven't we all. The one thing that is guaranteed in this industry is that if you stop now you certainly won't get a job. Someone who can spend £50k and then walk away absolutely bemuses me. I would have flown anything for anyone, anywhere as I just had to fly. You obviously don't want it that much.
unfortunately you do not know how lucky you are! There's luck and there's self made luck. You have to be in it to win it and by walking away you are reducing the competition for some other more dedicated (in your words 'lucky') individual.

I wish you well in your future, whatever you choose to do.

PP

[Groundloop]

Giving up after only 10 months trying! Not a lot of staying power. I know quite a number of new ATPLers who took about 18 months to get that first job. Just keep trying.

[scroggs]

I suspect that there are a great many other people in rbr919's position. Those who thought that by buying a training course for £50,000 they'd be guaranteed entry into this profession, and who find that that's not the case.

All your school did was sell you a product, which they seem to have delivered successfully in that you presumably have the promised number of flying hours and the probationary fATPL qualification. That was the limit of their liability to you. The rest is up to you. If you're not prepared to stick it out (and many aren't), then that's a shame - and a waste of thet £50k investment.

However, there are many more like you who didn't think the whole thing through very carefully before they committed the cash, and didn't make a long-term plan of how they were going to succeed in this industry. You're not alone. I wish you luck in whatever you decide to do in the future.

Scroggs

[butzel]

you gotta be sh*tting me...10 months and giving up already? you are honestly throwing away 50,000lbs of training after 10 blo*dy months?!? gotta agree with the others here...I dont think you want the job just enough! There are peopel that needed to wait for years doing other shi*ty jobs to survive until they got their chance and here you are saying 10 months and its all over....

keep on looking, stick with it! keep in the buisness, I know it can be frustrating...but you knew that before you started. Asia is booming...why dont u try there?

[DeltaT]

To save you some time, yes Asia is booming, but as far as I know they are only taking their own nationals for F/O positions.

[A320rider]

10 months , I am fighting for over many years...


I am still poor, I can not even buy a car, or have a rent. I do not pay taxes because I have only ****ty incomes(minimum wages?),...
airlines ask us now to pay to work.



I hope you feel better now!

[Gnirren]

I finished my training in 2001 and I'm waiting to start my typerating course for my first employment right now. I've towed gliders and been an instructor in the US. If you think 10 months is bad... try 4 years. However, I've had fun during this time and I've kept myself flying which is what matters the most to me. Some of my best experiences come from my time in Florida and I wouldn't want to undo them. You want to hear my peptalk that I gave my students when they where bithing and complaining about this and that?

"It only gets harder"

Which is true. This industry demands your very best, and it demands complete devotion until you're snuggly seated with a company flying an airplane that you know inside and out and with a couple of years experience on. Then it's easy, but then again... that's when it starts feeling old and stale. I've towed lufthansa 747 captains who come to sweden to fly their gliders in the summer to enjoy flying again, not programming and they all tell me the same thing. Enjoy the flying you do before the airlines, enjoy every aspect of flying that you can get your hands on. Seek new challenges and continue to evolve, but most importantly, have FUN!! Don't sit in that cockpit in bitterness, because you know people on their way to an airbus or boeing. You may be underpaid/not paid and it may be hard work but man... you're flying. Others dream of doing once what you can do every single day!

Get out there and fly, have fun, and good things will happen. These fasttrack newbies who end up in a some A340 punching numbers into the FMC with 250 hrs totalt time have no idea what they just missed. The journey to the right seat matters, believe me. Sometimes I think that the journey itself is why I did it.

Studying 737 systems is very interesting to me right now, and I can't wait to get into the sim, but I still think that climbing into that rickety Pawnee cockpit with nothing but the barest of instrumentation and firing up that 'ol lycoming 6cyl gets my pulse going more.

[ATP_Al]

I have tried everything(airlines, air taxi, para dropping, tug etc etc)

Do you mean you've tried applying or that you've actually done these types of work?

Many air taxi pilots (myself included) are leaving for airline jobs. I suspect that if you have 120hrs multi and 100hrs IFR you'll be snapped up, regardless of age or background. Even if you don't have 700hrs tt there are operators who have exemptions to allow pilots to fly on their AOC with 400hrs tt.

Getting jobs in GA is all about knocking on doors and getting your face known. Age, exam results etc are not important provided you turn up at the right place at the right time, have the basic qualifications for the job and make a good first impression. So if you've not got something then maybe you're not trying hard enough!

Al

[Gufo]

These fasttrack newbies who end up in a some A340 punching numbers into the FMC with 250 hrs total time have no idea what they just missed. The journey to the right seat matters, believe me. Sometimes I think that the journey itself is why I did it.

Hey, mate! Gnirren really got it spot on! It's the greatest point here, IMHO. Think about this...

and good luck! :ok:

[Katanaman]

PLEASE DO NOT GIVE UP

Please do not give up. It took me since 1997 part-time while working in London to get to CPL/IR FIC and then I worked for 18 months and ran into Sept 11th.

I then got another job instructing and eventually got my first job with a turbo-prop operator. I had 2300 hrs at the time.

I wrote to everyone and his dog, followed leads and spoke to anyone who might help.

Eventually I just targeted two airlines and was realistic and went for the turbo-prop world.

I got told to take a hike, etc, etc. Eventually I got the call, after turning up on the doorstep of one airline on a number of occasions and not getting to see anyone each time, but my name got through.

When I got the interview they said we know you have been keen etc - end of story. I believe you have to get out there; writing letter is only a small part of the process of winning over a place on your first interview.

I only did 16 months of turbo-props and then went to a major Gatwick based airline and have never looked back. The transition from the turbo-prop outfight was so much better and I got treated like a person.

Its all about the first job and I think depending on circumstances you have to be prepared to go anywhere and accept the terms and conditions (initial jobs are never the best).

The future is bright, but its all about the approach – never give up.

Good luck

[Pilot Pete]

Thanks for your comments but they are all wrong. Thanks for taking the time to PM this to me rbr919. Well, if you can't even see the possibility of some truth in the 'home truths' I posted, then you do right to give up as you will never be happy in this industry. It is full of reality, which gets in the way of the idealised 'cosy' view from the pages of a glossy Oxford brochure.

I mean nothing personal in the comments I made, purely trying to point out the other side of the coin, which you seem not to want to contemplate. It is a requirement of being a professional pilot to understand that your decision making may well have been flawed (and will continue to be so). With the benefit of hindsight you need to be able to reassess previous decisions and learn from the experience. If things don't work out like you planned, then you have to adjust your plan and look at other options. You have boxed yourself in and are unwilling to look for the other options, discounting them because your plan has faltered and you are emotional about it.

What exactly did you want from starting this thread? Lots of sympathy and a few cheery 'good lucks' for your (non-aviation) future? Someone to talk you back into carrying on? Someone to offer you a job on a plate as they feel sorry for you? It has to come from you. You have to want to keep going, like Gnirren has. If you didn't really have the bug and just thought about the perceived glamorous end game, then you were almost certainly doomed to failure from the start unless you found that lucky break pretty quickly.

This forum is full of people who have spent years trying to get their first break. Look at Katanaman as an example. It's the tough reality of the marketplace. You have minimum qualifications and are competing with many hundreds of other (often) more experienced candidates. What exactly did you expect? A jet job a few months after getting your CPL? Welcome to the real world. The market has changed over the last 12-18 months and for the better as regards first jobs. I know many guys who have gained a start after lots of trying. The coming years, not-withstanding 'events', would appear to be even better for hiring. If you can't gain inspiration to keep going and make yourself more employable during this time then you have wasted your money, time and effort.

So sorry for not being full of sympathy, but I don't see any reason for it. I would rather give sympathy to the guy who is trying like hell but just not getting the break. All the info was out there (and most of it on here) before you started and if you choose to spend £50k and then not build any further experience to make yourself more employable then that is your choice. There are always more reasons to NOT continue, it comes down to determination.

So if my comments are so wrong, why not explain (as I can only assume you wanted dialogue by starting the thread), rather than send a PM with a childish response?

Good luck for the future.

PP

[Heffer]

Why did you get your New Zealand CPL/IR and then do the full course of study all over again to get your JAR paperwork?

Which UK airlines told you several years ago that you would be accepted and how has the entry criteria of these respective airlines changed since then to prevent the employment of your services?

Which two UK airlines stated you're now too old?

Less than two months ago you made a post stating you're just about to start your (JAR?)CPL/IR... No UK airline could have employed you without this, so how could you have been looking for 8 months?

Maybe i'm fatigued but to me your claims just don't stack up. One thing is certain and that is you've contributed nothing to aviation thus far so what can you possibly expect back? Harsh but true.

[747 Downwind]

rbr919: It would be foolish to give up after so much hard work and financial cost has been put into your training. By giving up you will only allow some fresh faced dude out of Oxford or the like to take your position not having gone through the pain staking wait. I have similar qualifications to yourself, bar the extra multi piston time, it is admirable but there are others with similar impressive C.Vs.. the key is total hours and the quality of those hours.

My advice to you is keep your medical valid and your IR current (doesn't have to be in the aircraft.. I did it in an FNPT II.. all of this will allow you to have the bare minimum layed done by the airlines at a cost of about a grand a year. Saving £20 a week will allow you to do this. It is a pity that you can not afford an FIC.. FTOs should start to pay for these in light of the pathetic salaries that Instructors get. 10 months is nothing.. took me 2.5 years and it's taken others longer. It took me a year to find my first aviation related job.. Flight Ops. If you can afford to stomach an aviation salary it is worth while. Many airlines are recruiting now and the turbo prop market is vibrant. Sadly the jet carriers tend to take only those with ratings but there are exceptions such as ThomsonFly and BA etc. Check out lists for air taxi operators.. DO NOT give up now you have come so far, this is a good time in aviation.. it may not last:oh:

Good luck with job hunting

747 Downwind:ok:

[scroggs]

These fasttrack newbies who end up in a some A340 punching numbers into the FMC

You talking about me? :p :O

Scroggs

[Gnirren]

You know it :ok:

[lookoutbelow]

10 Months ago you had just finished your training and you investment was £50k, today your are considering giving up, therefore your investment/qualification is worth £0. That is £5k a month, some depreciation!! You wouldn’t accept that of any other investment, so don’t accept it on this and keep working hard and turn every stone...

Good luck.

Lookoutbelow

[Luke SkyToddler]

I smell a big rat here, here is a chap who claims to have trained in NEW ZEALAND who is now throwing all his toys out of the cot because he's been sitting around applying for a few months and can't get an airline job with his 200 hours, and claims to be especially incensed and treated so badly by the aviation industry because he's got all these first time passes etc etc ...

Well my heart bleeds custard for you mate, especially if as you claim, you've done your training in New Zealand you'll know that if you sat around in any flying school lounge down in that country and made your ridiculous little dummy spit that you've just made, that all the instructors in the building, most of whom are 10 years younger than you, have 10 times your flying hours, more first time passes and amazingly high exam percentages than you can shake a stick at, and they still can't get a look in on the smallest little turboprop regional, would either laugh at you or punch you in the face.

You are either breathtakingly naive or breathtakingly arrogant my friend or maybe both ... you didn't train at Massey by any chance did you? :p

[flyingskipper]

I have been thinking of going to oxford for the atpl but after reading this i might give it a second thought, at 37 ive left it a bit late perhaps.:bored:

[Luke SkyToddler]

flyingskipper it doesn't really matter whether you're 17 or 37, you need to understand that going and training for a professional pilots licence is a huge gamble and even in the boom times like now, there are many many more low hour pilots than jobs.

People like rbr919 just annoy me when they come on here and hurl all this mud at 'the industry' for their lack of employment. The truth is that 'the industry' i.e. the airlines, are certainly not in the business of hyping up employment prospects for wannabe pilots, in fact the industry (in the form of anyone who actually flies for an airline) is normally quite happy to give realistic advice on the job market to anyone who asks. The dispensing of such advice is exactly the reason why people like Scroggs and WWW and myself and Pilot Pete and a handful of others who actually care about the future of this industry, stick around the wannabes forum and try to make ourselves useful and save a few others of you from finding yourselves in our man here's sad predicament.

What Mr rbr919 is actually mad at here is the Flight Training industry, as distinct from the Airline industry. The Flight Training industry is undoubtedly a particularly nasty piece of work which is riddled from top to bottom with liars, crooks and people with vested interests (and that's just the CAA!!) ... and the one thing they've all got in common is the need to provide a continual stream of misinformation to their potential customers so the pot of money doesn't dry up overnight.

However this is the information age and there is just no excuse for not properly doing your research any more when it comes to such a life changing decision as taking on professional pilot training. If you actually believe the b.s. that flows from flying school marketing personnel and don't do any other form of research, then I'm sorry but you deserve to have your money taken off you. It's not exactly hard to chat to your mates and find somebody who knows somebody who knows an airline captain who'll dish the dirt on the 'true' state of the industry over a pint. If you're really stretched then it only takes a few seconds on Google to find this forum, getting a hold of a BALPA newsletter and reading it, or sticking your head into the crew room of any airline in any airport (or even better, a bar in a hotel near an airport where "airline pilots" are known to frequent) and spending a few minutes getting some unbiased proper advice before you go and remortgage the house.

The saddest thing of all is that there are lots of people just there just like rbr who eventually got a dose of reality and decided to bail out with nothing to show for it but a £50 grand debt. It can't be a nice feeling at all when you finally realize you can't afford to keep throwing the dice / staying unemployed / keeping current and have to go back to the desk job. My cousin's another one just the same, he's now selling food processors for a living and his FATPL hasn't come out of its cupboard these last 6 years although every xmas when I see him he keeps telling me he's going to get current and have another try at the airlines, he's not even kidding himself any more let alone me :(

It just never ceases to blow me away when I read some of the woe-is-me posts on here like this one, how presumably highly intelligent and educated people who've already got degrees and had successful careers, can just turn off their common sense when it comes to flying training, and somehow kid themselves or allow other people to kid them that they are going to be hot property for some glamourous big jet operator. Honestly the amount of wilful blindness that goes on out there in the flight training business is unreal.

On that sad note I'll wish you all a merry xmas and good night ...

- Luke (now employed as airline captain, who spent a damn sight longer than 10 months looking for a job, and NEVER GAVE UP until he got one!)

[Bealzebub]

I think Luke has summed it up about right. If rbr919 wants to give up for the reasons he has stated then that is his business. Nobody should castigate him for it, after all it is one less fish in the pond, which in some small measure has to improve the chances for those that remain and persevere.

[tinpis]

You never know what goes on behind a Masons apron until you wear one.

[avrodamo]

Flying Skipper: I have 2 friends both mid 30's, both low hours when they started and both got turboprop jobs. It’s all down to determination.
RBR: You have to adjust your game plan. I have done exactly the same as you, and many hundreds of other guys. You send out your CV, and not alot happens. You can either:
a) Complain bitterly about not getting a job, give up etc etc
Or
b) Adjust your game plan and try a new approach. If something is not working then fix it. Probably the most important thing is to network. It is so important. I’m not talking about just having a chat with a Captain somewhere. Its about forming relationships where people are willing to stick their neck out for you, and by doing that making you stand out from, from what is, a very large crowd.

You really have to be able to take knocks in this game. No job is 'gifted' to you. Searching for a job is a game in itself. It’s not just about banging out CVs every week. It’s about attitude, strategy, and you as a person. Aviation is a very small world, and once you start networking you will be amazed who knows who.

Your clearly feeling low about aviation, but it happens. We have all thought about giving up. The trick is now to get the motivation to carry on, and change your game plan.

[EGCC4284]

Aged 38, 400 hours, passed IR in September 2005, modular route whilst working full time.

No job yet. Had one interview which I passed and one hell of a sim ride that I failed.

Am I upset, No.

Am I going to give up, No

If I haven't got a job within two years, will I give up, No.

Do I care enough to moan about it, No

I've learnt a lot from the experience and will take it with me to the next job interview and sim ride.

Like my friend once said, "Its water under the bridge and there's no point in getting upset about it".

Competition is high and you have to sell yourself as a pleasant guy and not a knobhead

Finding a job is not going to be easy, you make your own luck in this world and moaning will only make it easier for others

There is only one thing that will prevent me from flying for a living and that's if I lose my medical.

Also, be prepared to give it time before a first job offer.

Looking for a job will be a challenge which I will enjoy.

Network, Network and Network and get them to buy you the coffee. Private joke here.

The are more important things in life like making time for your friends which is difficult when working lots of hours, trying to have a sense of humour and being truthful to yourself.

Sorry for poor grammar

[CAP509castaway]

rbr919,
It is about time you replied to the advice that has been given to you .......if you are genuine, then speak up.As Pilot Pete and others have alluded to, the flying training industry will try and sell you the "dream", with their glossy ads.,but the reallity is totally different.As you can see from my nom de plume, I had little or no help with seeking employment from my FTO.It took me SEVEN years to find my first job which meant staying current, renewing the IR and renewing Performance A.
Five years as FO flying various turboprops at night( without autopilot), I now fly jets, and can't wait to go to work and press the GO button.
So come on lets here your thoughts now that you have had all these replies.
:ok: :ok: :ok:

[EGCC4284]

CAP509castaway, well done on the jet job. I didn't know you had moved on. You deserve it.

[rbr919]

Thank you all for your replies. some have been very helpful, some encouraging, some very wide of the mark and some hurtful. But thats what you get when you open yourself up to the world and his dog!

As I previously said I have given up a lot to get here, a house, a job, a car, a bank balance. But on the plus side I have gained some great friends and an ex-wife. I'm not expecting the world to owe me anything and no one can say that I did not do my extensive research or go into this blind. I've already tried many of your suggestions, I've even been declined jobs as a baggage handler. Its not even about the money as I would work for nothing.(maybe thats the airlines next step after getting us to pay for TRs). But what leaves a horrible taste is the airlines arrogance and ignorance to those who are sweating blood and tears. the airlines do not owe us anything...except a little respect would no go amiss!
If this is boom time and no one wants to know, god knows what it will be like after the retirement age is increased.

I don't even have the money after my rent to buy more paper for my cv (after being shafted by a certain flight school) but I'm going to give it another go, I'm not sure for how long as I've not got many more teeth left for them to kick. But thank you all for your words of wisdom.

Wishing all a Merry Christmas and lets hope the airlines start investing in their future.:ok:

[G-SPOTs Lost]

This industry has had my £50,000+ and treated me appaulingly

Fact: You didn't need to spend 50k

From My CPL Skills test to my First (Jet) Type Rating was FIVE YEARS!

September 11th 2001 was the day of my 170A test.

This industry owes you absolutely nothing

Dont give up but don't moan, you don't have the right to do so

[Stratman]

To those who feel like giving up,I can understand their feelings only too well. I have been involved in this industry since the late 80`s and basically it has only got worse from all angles. Terms and conditions, job security, entry requirements, have all worsened. Becoming a pilot is a huge gamble with no certain outcome, training schools have always perpetrated myths about employment, that is the business they are in.They continue to churn out people wth commercial flying licences, some get jobs some never work as a pilot, and some, make no mistake about this anyone, dislke the job that much that they leave the industry.
My point, maybe in a strange way, is for those that feel it may never happen for them, take heart at this time of the year you have not missed out on the best job in the universe at all.
After the investment in time and money I hope that it turns out to be what you wish for, but for many it does not.

Have a Happy Xmas [forget aeroplanes for a while and enjoy yourselves}

[Caudillo]

For all of you with your advice and "tough love" to rbr919, spare me from it.

I sincerely hope you people never discover the casino or the betting shop. You may well ram home the point about how it "took me two geological eras to find a job, but I made it" - but whats the point? Well great, past performance of others is no guide to the future performance of ones self - especially when faced with mounting personal troubles.

It certainly takes more cojones and intelligence to know when to stop throwing good money after bad, and I think to be able to appreciate the fact that he may well have lost £50,000 and is now going to have to take steps to do something about it is a mature decision.

Why attack the FTOs when all you guys do is keep preaching to stick with it because you may get there? This is an industry where performance is only part of the equation. The other part is luck. He may not get it.

[Pilot Pete]

The other part is luck. He may not get it. True. The one guarantee is that if he gives up he WILL have wasted his £50k and he WON'T get the luck.

Luck comes to those who put themselves in a position to get it. Even the National Lottery is thus; if you don't buy a ticket you can't get lucky and win it.......

PP

[Stpaul]

Too many people fall in love with the dream and throw more good money after bad. Unfortunately those people are blinkered or do not have another occupation to fall back on. I know loads of integrated who spent (or their parents spent) £50K and who had never even flown before. The schools sell the dream! But the airlines hire these idiots!

It takes a brave man to know when to stop. There are many on this site with plenty of hours and even TR's who cannot get a chance of a job.

Or is it a wise man that knows when to stop. Then it is not £50k wasted but the rest saved! The money could already be wasted, after all you are not going to see it again.

I understand this is a time when jobs are plenty and no one was doubting it was tough a few years back, but if you are not getting an interview in these times, you must be a realist and either change/improve/give up. For times may well get tougher.

Get a job to stay current though, just in case 2006 brings us all hope.

:D

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Have just picked up a PM from the starter of this thread, having a bit of a go and generally whingeing about the responses.... :rolleyes:

Don't start a thread moaning and then moan to everybody else when they provide their opinion on a public bulletin board!!!!

I'll tell you what - Give it all up, write off the 50k and consider it a blessing that you havn't blown another 20k on a 737 type rating. From a CRM point of view not being able to accept constructive criticism and another persons point of view is slightly worrying anyway.

Give it all up and consider it a sporting act of flight safety on your behalf for the fare paying public !

Dont PM me I'm not interested and won't read it.

[ChocksAwayUK]

Shouldn't that have been a PM G-SPOTs Lost? You know what that stands for right?

[Delta Wun-Wun]

Welcome to the real world. The Airlines do not owe anyone with a Licence anything (unless you are one of their shareholders). They are companies designed to make money through air travel not assist folks in flying training. I would image it gets quite tedious when you are after crew having your e- mail or post box clogged with applications from people who do not match the qualifications you have asked for (assuming you have asked for peoples` CV`s).
Getting a CPL/IR is a very big risk has as already been said. No guarentees etc and luck seems to be a factor as much as "right place right time". Perhaps when you sit down and plan out your training it would be wise to factor in how you are going to keep current once qualified for what could be 5+ years. How are you going to service the debts you incure and how are you going to live a normal life until that job you want arrives.

[Rotating Beacon]

To use a well worn phrase " If you want a guarantee buy a toaster!"

To anyone out there who thinks airline indifference stops when you have a job, think again! I have worked for my current employer for nearly 3 years, and the goal posts are still moving on a daily basis. Opening / closing of bases, moving of fleets etc. The airline industry is governed by general chaos it seems. Its a good idea to get used to it as it makes life a lot less stressful. Getting any job doesn't mean the rollercoaster ride is over, you just move onto a different rollercoaster! Most companies are the same to varying degrees. All companies are in the midst of fierce competition, which means things change on a daily basis. In many instances this isn't deliberate, but an unfortunate fact of life. This doesn't help when your trying to get your first job.

I had 300 hours via the modular route and over age 30. Waited 2.5 years for a job. I did it eventually by staying in an aviation and bugging as many as possible. If you can get a job in aviation you are more likely to hear about recruitment before its adverstised etc. Quite a few of our fo's were flight dispatchers, and we just kept handing in cvs for them. It took a while, but worked for a few eventually. You'll have good times and bad and feel like giving up, but you just have to keep going. Remember to try and stay positive, as when you do get an interview they will be looking at personality too. And believe me no-one wants to sit on the flightdeck for 12 hrs with someone who thinks the world the world owes them something!

Good luck all, i think 2006 will be a good one for lots of you!

[speechless1]

Give up. Its one less for everyone else to compete with ! That would be the cruel answer. The truth is that you are probably making a level headed decision. The fact is that this industry is grossly oversubscribed and an ATPL is just like a graduates degree. ie it only qualifies you to apply for jobs. I realised during my training that it is the flight schools that have the right idea. During times of recession they tell you that you should train now and be ready for the upturn, and when the upturn comes, they tell you that you should train now as there is a pilot shortage. So I got an instructors rating instead. It pays poorly but the flying is great. Do the rating and pay for it using an interest free credit card introduction offer. It took me 9 months to pay it off, but i now have a qualification for life. And its great!