3 more Apache pilots resign [Archive]

AHQHI656SQN

20th Dec 2005, 10:01

Crab Beefer, stay away!

I think your source of information is a little bit wrong, cos it's more than three! I am curious about the sincerity of your post.
Are you one of a growing number who like a good old verbal bashing about the Army Apache program?
As a "crab beefer" I assume (might be wrong, I have been wrong before) you a RAF helicopter pilot and QHI, therefore failed fast jet maybe, with a burning desire to something more than just ash and trash.
Bullied at Red 850 by Lynx 5 in the past maybe? To be honest I don't really care.

The people you speak of haven't yet resigned, well maybe one or two have, but not all, and I think you'll find they could all be staying within the Apache program, just as civvies, all of them are at points in there service where it is natural to leave if a better offer comes along.

Why is it the Apache makes the headlines everytime somebody on the program has a good sh1t? Life in the Apache world isn’t bad, there are challenges sure, but what part of the armed forces doesn’t have any challenges right now.

Oh one more thing, the Royal Navy have 2 current Apache pilots to at the moment, one is a QHI who got us all onto and off HMS Ocean without incident. The Royal Navy added to the Attack Helicopter budget when they decided not to buy a Lynx TOW replacement, which is why one of the Attack Aviation Squadrons has a Maritime role. No need for any Crabs thank you!

ShyTorque

20th Dec 2005, 11:04

AHQHI656SQN

Strewth! You should have gone into Air Defence with a defensive attitude like that!

It seemed like a genuine enough question to me so why fly straight off the collective?

Sounds like a very sensitive spot was touched there......

But you said "I think your source of information is a little bit wrong, cos it's more than three!"

Followed by "The people you speak of haven't yet resigned, well maybe one or two have"

Make up your mind! :rolleyes:

AHQHI656SQN

20th Dec 2005, 11:23

ST, the bottom line is, why does it matter that 3 or more Apache pilots have resigned, how many Puma pilots, or Chinook pilots have resigned? No news really.
A lot more than 3 Apache pilots have resigned, some very senior, some not so senior, every one of em for better offers. As my memory serves me about 11 so far.
Not attitude at all, just miffed every time I someone post a disingenuous thread on here about Apache. Really what does it matter to crab beefer that 3 Apache pilots have resigned? He's nothing to do with Apache, nor could he be. There is more impact on me and those flying the Apache at the moment yet none of us put the post up. We are the ones who have to carry on doing the job, and there are few enough of us as it is.

Merry Christmas.

owe ver chute

20th Dec 2005, 11:31

Tom, maybe it would be better if the crabs had Apache eh?
Cos look at how well they keep hold of the Tornado and Harrier and Hercules and Tristar and Chinook and Puma pilots. None of them leave do they? :ok:

Merry Christmas mate.

mutleyfour

20th Dec 2005, 12:01

Maybe CB was simply fishing and AHQHI took the bait.

Zoom

20th Dec 2005, 12:43

I do feel sorry for the Apache mates. As any military person will know, there is not a single piece of equipment, from the humble sock to the super-snazzy jet fighter, that has worked as advertised at any stage of its time in service.

You may correct me if I am wrong.

ExGrunt

20th Dec 2005, 12:53

Jerrycan :ok:

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Two's in

20th Dec 2005, 14:05

Isn't saying 'don't slag off the Apache" a bit like saying "don't call me Ginger"? Glad to see it still works though.

AHQHI656SQN

20th Dec 2005, 15:41

2's in, who's slagging the Apache?
The aircraft is fantastic, I would't want to go into battle dressed in anything else.
As for being Ginger.....

Mark IX

20th Dec 2005, 20:18

As any military person will know, there is not a single piece of equipment, from the humble sock to the super-snazzy jet fighter, that has worked as advertised at any stage of its time in service.

I'm not so sure that's true because I used to enjoy the mulligatawny soup that came in the 10 man ration pack in the 80s and 90s. If I remember correctly it was Menu D, along with Bacon Burgers rather than Bacon Grill for breakfast. Nowt to beat Mulligatawny with Bacon Burger out of your mess tin shortly after you've shaved in it on a crisp winter morning. You can keep your First Class soup & your pretty trolly dollies. Give me a grumpy Squadron Sergeant Major with a pointy pace stick any time. The military can get some things right....

FrogPrince

20th Dec 2005, 21:07

We nicked the design for the jerrycan in 1941 from... the Jerries (the clue is in the name).

:D

IIRC, the Spitfire had teething troubles pre-war, the 4 engined Lancaster only came into being because the 2 engined Manchester was a right 'horlicks', Kestrel / Harrier also had a long and difficult birth.

Goes with the territory for any major change programme. All four major change elements need to be sorted:

People
Organisation
Technology
Information

From the outside, AH within 16 AA Bde seems to be a readily deployable asset. We'll find out soon enough next year, I'm sure.

boswell bear

20th Dec 2005, 21:41

I'd be happy to fly Apache :cool:

wg13_dummy

20th Dec 2005, 21:42

But did all the other bits of kit to come into service with 'teething problems' have a bunch of humourless, soft skinned drippers at the helm?

:rolleyes:

crab beefer

21st Dec 2005, 06:43

Wow..:eek:

All I wanted to know was should I ask to do an exchange tour. I have subsequently been told that there are 4 Apache QHIs resigned amongst others including some Apache pilots in staff jobs. I would be happy doing a line shag slot but would be equally keen to fill a QHI slot.

Having said all that I am now worried as I have obviuosly have hit a bit of a nerve. Glad the RN doing well, I do like to think the RAF would be able to impart something to the development of this great aircraft, maybe you disagree.:confused: :rolleyes:

mutleyfour

21st Dec 2005, 07:10

Crab Beefer, you havent exactly hit a raw nerve, so one person bites, not surprisingly as you lot continually bait such people. Im sure AHQHI is feeling a little bit miffed after countless bouts of said sarcasm. But his bite doesnt constitute a landslide vitory against AH does it?

I agree with you however that maybe an exchange RAF Pilot might be worthwhile, but will you find an NCO Pilot!

Happy Christmas

Muttley out

Sloppy Link

21st Dec 2005, 07:31

Arctic socks, can't beat them. The roll mat has never let me down either. In fact the only thing that has let me down is my own expectations of kit as it is introduced.
(Is that irony, sarcacm, satire or wit? Please could an educated person advise. Crab Beefer perhaps?)

CSRO

21st Dec 2005, 08:16

I am sure the RAF would add to the apache program.

Should he be FJ or rotary?

CB - as SQHI656 says of those that are going, some will stay linked to the program so no huge loss.

Suggest you speak to your manning branch and put in a request to do exchange.

sarmonkey

21st Dec 2005, 15:43

All us blue-jobs would love a go of the Apache - Very capable and, it has to be said, cool as ****. I'm sure with our limited experience of helo ops and weapon delivery, we could through hard work and sending only the very best candidates, contribute in some small way. It would appear that we need to work on our bitterness and bait-taking abilities though, since this is obviously part of the job....

Just kidding, chaps - put down your dark visors and go and impress some girls and have a happy christmas too!

MaroonMan4

21st Dec 2005, 17:39

SarMonkey,

Now now my dear chap - no need to add to add to the melee! Although it grieves me to admit, Front Seater is actually right - and although a humble civvie I know that us light blue bretheren have not actually got anything endorsed by our airships and so what do they (Air Component) actually want Apache to do for us?

We have not included or requested them in any JFACC orbat, where as the JFMCC and JFLCC have and have the associated endorsed doctrine to back it up.

As you well know in a cash strapped MoD, unless it is endorsed there is no requirement, no requirement then no funding and with out funding there is no capability. All of the TLT, SAXON SHIELD, WICKHAM WARRIOR stuff is all done by mates, for mates through the back door and not through any ATO/ATM tasking from a CAOC.

So it has absolutely nothing to do with experience in helo ops or weapon delivery skills - as although I am sure there is experience out there it appears that the Pongos are doing a pretty good job at training their own QWIs and Weapon Instructors. As to the remainder of the Air Component stuff, again just before I left I observed the AH EAGLE STRIKE exercise where it was pleasing to see the brown jobs fully up to speed on COMAO, FRA, DCA, OCA blah blah and more to the point willing to listen to the SH guys during the planning process - now that is a step change from the old Army way of doing business!

And ultimately, regardless of the hot air about who should fly it (done to death in so many other threads, so please not start it here!) the bottom line with the Lynx Fleet being reduced, Gazelles joining history and according to the press releases only 48 frontline AH, then every single seat in any Army aircraft is high value for their own Corps and future career progressions.

But as I have always said on numerous occasions, in this resource and cash strapped MoD lets stop party politicking for individual Service gains and why not just accept the inevitable and stop faffing and having a protracted cuffuffle and go Joint - properly and not in the half baked attempt that it currently is.

SilsoeSid

21st Dec 2005, 17:57

As any military person will know, there is not a single piece of equipment, from the humble sock to the super-snazzy jet fighter, that has worked as advertised at any stage of its time in service. To add to the growing list, how about those 'mini doss bags' that were/are brilliant in Norway?

And ultimately, regardless of the hot air about who should fly it (done to death in so many other threads, so please not start it here!) the bottom line with the Lynx Fleet being reduced, Gazelles joining history and according to the press releases only 48 frontline AH, then every single seat in any Army aircraft is high value for their own Corps and future career progressions. What is the future of the various AAC TA units?
Is it true that they are the 'safest' TA unit to be a part of, bearing in mind present TA deployments?

Just wondered!
;)
SS

HEDP

21st Dec 2005, 18:09

7 Regt is safe as houses and picking up a lot of the admin tasking and 6 Regt AAC (TA) has/is just forming as a ground AH support Regt based out of Bury St Edmunds.

HEDP

aytoo

21st Dec 2005, 21:33

It's been said before, but will bear saying again. Like any new bit of kit, there is a honeymoon period, followed by a reality check.

When the Scout came into service, contrary to urban myth, it was such a piece of Sh1t, that the light-blue jobs bought Alouette 2 off the shelf so that they had something to fly. Much, much later was the old brussel sprout considered the landrover of the skies - and even then it was rumoured that on completion of a Scout AH1 conversion the successful candidate filled in a Green Endorsement but left the date blank - it was not a case of if, but when, the mighty Nimbus would fail...

The Apache is a mighty piece of kit, and is currently operated by the leading experts (at least in Europe), at direct-fire weapons from rotary aircraft. Let us hope that they do not continue to leach manpower of the quality that they seem content to do so. Several very fine young men indeed appear to have just had enough, including one Sandhurst Sword of Honour Winner (how's the sword case JVB). The other two that I know of are also a huge loss to a fine Corps.

MightyGem

22nd Dec 2005, 08:13

that has worked as advertised at any stage of its time in service.
Compo can opener. An excellent piece of kit, still use one at home.

BEagle

22nd Dec 2005, 08:33

Indeed - that compo can widger was an engineering masterpiece! One of the few military things which actually did what it was supposed to.

As did the old 'gorilla snot' glue for joining maps together.

Wizzard

22nd Dec 2005, 10:48

Aah, Gorilla Snot.

Many happy memories of being high as a kite on completion of my Munster LFA map!

Wiz:D

owe ver chute

24th Dec 2005, 09:27

Aytoo, the Sandhurst Sword of Honour Winner that you speak of hasn't had enough of the Apache, I hear it's the thought of no more Apache flying that he's not happy with. Indeed it's the same old Army Air Corps Officer career profile that a lot of bright young Army Officers have to come to terms with, or leave the Corps. I dare say that for the first time this profile is coming to bite the AAC on the @rse. It now takes too long to train a replacement Apache Flight Commander, to the point that Apache CTT (already pushed to the limit) won't be able to keep the numbers of Apache pilots up to the required quantity! At a time when the requirement is for the number of pilots to increase, it makes no sense to remove pilots from a flying role at a time when this fledgling pragram is trying to grow.

fenestronuk

24th Dec 2005, 10:01

Good point about YOs leaving due to career path restrictions.

Are these 3 leaving all officer Apache pilots?
Are they all QHIs?
I am told it is more than 3? (4 from Dishforth and 3 from Wallop)??which doesn't seem like many to me but when it is out of a small number I guess it does make a difference.

I thought the PA spine was designed to keep these guys in? or does the AAC army career path still come first?
I genuinelly hope the AAC doesn't blow Apache and handit on a plate to another service who will be able to man it...

I am due to go on Apache CTT soon and am interested if I am going to get the flying I am being promised or whetehr it is more of the same but leaving me even less competent as I will have even less time to get to grips with a more complicated platform. Why won't they let us get good?:confused:

AHQHI656SQN

24th Dec 2005, 17:57

Fenestronuk, if you want to see what life in an Attack Sqn is like pop up to Dishforth if you get the chance. You could also go to 673 Sqn at Wallop, but bare in mind that they a funded by ATRA, the 673 Sqn crewroom cost more than 656 Sqns hanger!! Only joking but they are well looked after.

The program needs top quality individuals who want to fly the Apache because the Apache is what they want to fly, without that want, you'll fall by the way-side. It is hard graft, no two ways about it, and it's a long old haul, but every time you sit in the cockpit (front or rear seat) you'll grin from ear to ear and when you let rip with the M230 for the first time, your world will rock.
Give us a call on 94713 4669 and have a chat.

Merry Christmas
Tom

P.S. Not sure about who has or who hasn't resigned, but it's sure getting people talking!

MightyGem

24th Dec 2005, 19:52

'gorilla snot'
Withdrawn during my last years due to "fumes in the cockpit". :(

aytoo

29th Dec 2005, 08:08

TRF,

Looking at the timing of your post, you MAY just be excused for attempting to crowbar this thread into the traditional crab v pongo slanging match - but I doubt it! There are very serious issues being discussed here, but the ownership of said capable piece of hardware ought not to be one of them.

All right then, at your level - just how much experience has the SH force got in direct fire weapons against armour or even SSVs? Really? As much as all that?

ps - do you fly the front or the back cyclic:ok:

Twin Rotor Fun

29th Dec 2005, 14:22

Apologies for drunken posting! Post duly removed.:ugh:

CSRO

30th Dec 2005, 08:14

Can someone confirm as QHI656 states - who has resigned?

Can someone confirm the following have resigned (not including those chopped):
3 (BA, PD, SG) ex A model QHIs in USA in the early days
1 (KM) to industry
1 (TD) to Shawbury DHFS as FBH QHI
RQHI 9 Reg (MG)
Ops Offr 9 Reg (DW)
Adjt 9 Reg (RT) - not sure if he is Apache trained
Ex OC 673 Sqn (NW)
Ex SSM 673 Sqn (SW)
Rumour of RN exchange pilot (SD) too
Rumour of one member of AMTAT (CW or CE?)
Reg Flt Comd (JVB)?

This can not be good news for the program at this stage.

What I want to know is why? and what can we do about it? particularly as alot of these QHIs have a great deal of experience that we should not be loosing before we have even finished fielding Apache.

Positive proposals only but obviously appreciate the negatives will address the why question. Think broadly and yes ownership may be one solution but I doubt it.

I may be in a position to try and help.:confused:

DUMPS

30th Dec 2005, 13:19

Come on boys ... back off the gingers ... surely they get enough grief??

AHQHI656SQN

3rd Jan 2006, 14:21

CSRO, if you might be in a position to try and help, why not pick up a telephone and call the units or individuals effected?
Check PM

peoplespoet

4th Jan 2006, 20:37

Wait until the FRI time bars runout later this year!!

Bugger.

Sloppy Link

4th Jan 2006, 22:00

CSRO,
Your apparant lack of knowledge is at odds with the intimate depth of knowledge you appear to have of individuals career plans. If you feel that you can help, how about doing it? You should not have to be asked.

breakscrew

5th Jan 2006, 08:50

Crab Beefer,
The RAF cannot yet fill the Lynx exchange QHI slot at SAAvn (after gapping it for 3 months already and looking at another 3 months until it is filled), let alone front up with a suitable candidate for AH. Rumour has it that the proposed individual is ex-RN, recently transferred to the RAF and on his first posting. Lots of confidence in the quality then......
:hmm: BS

peoplespoet

5th Jan 2006, 22:22

Cant let this one disappear, its not even started to hit any raw nerves yet!

I must ask this question, just why are AH pilots so down in the mouth about life in an AH sqn??

Honesty must be the best policy if anything is to change.

Low Ball

6th Jan 2006, 07:27

Peoplespoet

You ought to read what folks who actually fly the Apache say rather than fishing for manure. AH pilots are not down in the mouth.

Check out AHQHI's posts on this thread - 'he wouldn't want to go to war wearing anything else' he goes on to say, I paraphrase, it needs dedicated people who really want to do this and it is challenging. He's even offering visits to an AH Sqn for likely applicants to check it out before they apply. I assume you do not fall into this category since you seem to know little about the Apache or the men and women who fly it.

LB

peoplespoet

6th Jan 2006, 07:58

LB,
I'm sure that you are correct but I have spoken with many AH crews recently and to a man they are hacked off.

Fed up of poor serviceability, being placed on and off the deployment wagon and AH funding being cut left right and Chelsea. The general feeling appears to be that the AH is a great ac but the MOD cant afford to operate it effectively. It costs to much for ac MODs and training ammunition (which has apparently ran out) and the men are left to provide the full capability on a shoe string which is damaging to health and reputation.

I have no Axe to grind, just cant understand how the crews that fly the beast have become so demoralized that they should consider leaving after so much has been invested in them.

Surely everything possible should be available and considered to keep them on AH and in the forces i.e. more money if thats what it takes, after all the NAO state that it costs the tax payer nearly 1 million pound to fully train each CR AH pilot so 100K extra to retain their services for 5 years is a wise investment, and it worked for the harrier mates.

If any of the above has truth in it 'especially the ammo thing' then the MOD must have a duty of care to front up the dosh ASAP (UOR) especially if the media hype of a deployment next year is correct. The men need to train if they are expected to deliver!

Responses welcome

PP.

DEFENCE
Apache Helicopters

Mr. Paterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how much it costs to train a pilot to fly Apache helicopters; and how long the training takes. [153977]

Mr. Ingram: The basic Conversion to Type course for qualified Army pilots on the Apache helicopter at the School of Army Aviation, Middle Wallop, is 26 weeks. A current estimate of cost for this course for one pilot (the course has yet to complete) is £600,000. Once qualified, pilots then progress to a Conversion to Role course which will take place at Dishforth and Wattisham, and is run by the Air Manoeuvre Training Advisory Team (AMTAT). This course is of 26 weeks duration and an estimate of cost is £550,000.

Bertie Thruster

6th Jan 2006, 19:38

Wow! 26 weeks conversion to type! How many flying hours?

AHQHI656SQN

6th Jan 2006, 20:35

26 week Apache CTT, a bit like a student trimming out a Chipmunt T10!

I love the fact that so many people on here hide behind names that mean nothing and wax lyrical about mates who are Apache pilots and fed-up!

I too have got mates who are Apache pilots, not one of them are fed-up of flying Apache or being on the program. I would say that Apache pilots are no more or less fed-up than the Lynx drivers in the Regt.

I've said on here previously and stated there are issues, sure there are, but when you strap in they ebb away. The ammunition situation isn't ideal, indeed I had a chat with DCJHC Brig NC and it was top of his list of things to correct, but you can't pop down to Halfords and buy a batch of CRV7 off the shelf. The spares issue is complex, and to be honest is an issue, however it is often over-stated, what isn't often mentioned is how low the manning levels are at the Sqn CSS, now, if you want to find a group who are fed-up, speak to your friendly Apache REME! Never mentioned is how long it takes 7 Bat to turn round 300's cos fixing aircraft is 5th on a list of 7 tasks for the Bn. Or is it cos there are no spares?

Guys, I've had a heavy week on OPTAG Trg down at Colly, lets stop the bitchin and we'll p155 this.

Peoplespoet, it's been a while since you were last on here, I know I know who you are, but give us a clue mate.

wg13_dummy

7th Jan 2006, 17:54

Crikey, AHQHI656, youre dull. It appears the only people who bring this subject up is 'you lot'.
I love the fact that so many people on here hide behind names that mean nothing
Most choose to be anonymous. It appears you use your user name to gain ACR points, just a guess.;) Bet you dont say anything bad or against the Corps with that do you?

AHQHI656SQN

7th Jan 2006, 20:40

WG13 Dummy, you’ve got the gall to call me dull, I’ve just read your public profile, who’s dull?
You can wink all you like but suggesting I’m on here to gain CR points couldn’t be further from the truth, if you knew me then you’d know better. You seem to have confused my loyalty to the Apache (which I love dearly) for trying to gain CR points.
You claim that the only people bringing up this subject [Apache] is us lot, again wide of the mark, check out who started this thread, not an Apache pilot!
As for not saying anything bad against the Corps, when it’s warranted it gets it, though I’ve not said anything good about it either. I will not sit idly by while rubish is stated about the Apache or my fellow Apache pilots, no more than when I was flying Lynx.
We are where we are on this program due to hard work and dedication of a hand-full of fine aviators, who overcame a lot of obstacles placed by the Corps and the Army, some of which have not been overcome nor will they be any time soon. As long as the men who fly Apache have to adhere to the career profile that the Army insists on there will be waste.

peoplespoet

7th Jan 2006, 21:35

AHQHI656 is correct about many things that he writes on here and is a top bloke, but he stops short of the full reality of the situation, for the right reasons 'world of **it springs to mind'. :ok:

QHI656 and the rest of the AH pilots are undoubtedly proud and clearly revel in the achievement of qualifying on AH, and so they should. Their pride along with the knowledge of what the aircraft is capable of clearly frustrates them when they continue to suffer from poor serviceability and have few realistic training opportunities to look forward to, at least one's without shouting Bang, Bang, Bang, anyways...Joke!

The apparent lack of willingness to providing funding for the AH is frankly worrying, the RAF don't suffer to this degree I'm certain. Don't budget training; if X capability costs Y it stands to reason that if you provide Y- funds then you will only achieve X- capability or don't civil servants do maths anymore, or is it that they have been promised X+?

The AH has an awesome reputation to maintain and it won't be cheap.

No longer can the phrase "its just another helicopter" be used and for that reason a new bread of fighting leaders must push attack aviation into the limelight with substance to back it up (walk the walk, not Squawk, Squawk), the 'spirit of attack' which they all spout off about. Lets see some.

Can't imagine the consequences of not training regularly when faced with a two way range, only one outcome guaranteed me thinks!

PP.

(Tom, we flew the Twin Engine Torque monster together many times)

[email protected]

8th Jan 2006, 16:49

Ah.. the name PeoplesPoet....brings back happy memories of days at Wallop when out of the ether, a new peoplespoet message on the computer brought joy to the downtrodden QHI masses.

peoplespoet

8th Jan 2006, 19:57

Crabo, done anything mad with a lynx lately?

Those were the days me old mate how are SAR things going?

PP

mutleyfour

8th Jan 2006, 20:55

Back to basics though...When your getting on a bit..and flying Apache...as a QHI...with pension in back pocket...and along comes Mr ATIL...whom offers you a monday to friday...without deployment....in Hampshire....in civvies...but still flying AH..on equal or maybe even better money...Who in their right mind would say NO?

Muttley Out

CSRO

8th Jan 2006, 21:18

Limited job security though.

The ATIL contract is only for 30 years.....

Hang on, where do I sign?

Low Ball

9th Jan 2006, 06:58

Mutleyfour

Not quite right in your post there

Mr ATIL does not come along to you and offer you anything. You have to crawl to him with a date that is believable and agreed by your employers. Then and only then will he talk to you. The gate into ATIL is only one person wide they wouldn't want the masses bending the metal!

LB

peoplespoet

9th Jan 2006, 17:59

I am led to believe that ATIL also offer a reasonable pension, private health care, annual bonus schemes, guaranteed leave (30+ days) and a great quality of life, Oh and not to mention a 30 year contract.

Well if so, now that PAS has been fixed by the masters of all ideas that are brilliant I'm sure retention of AH pilots will be no problem at all...

PP

MaroonMan4

9th Jan 2006, 21:28

Guys,

This was an interesting thread - now very dull indeed. So you have some of your older AH pilots leaving and/or going to civilian MoD contracts. If you have a look around all three Services (Shawbury, Bovington and Portsmouth) you will find experienced men/women as civilians on a PFI contract, passing on their years of military experience.

Good - I am glad it is retained indirectly by the military as it would be a real pity to lose these guys to true civilian life in the airlines/civil rotary world.

Maybe continue this on ARRSE if you still think it is news/post worthy, but to be honest (and I have always had the upmost respect for you brown jobs, and envy the opportunity to fly Apache) you are just making yourselves look very spoiled by airing your washing on this forum.

Get over it guys - people will come and go, and don't ever think that you are irreplaceable. Maybe when you guys 'eat yourself up' from the inside there may be no other option but to make the capability Joint, and yes that does include recruiting suitable RAF/RN aircrew to fill those sacred Army AH seats.

If you guys don't want it, then I can assure you that there are many that would bite their arms off to give it a try - even if does mean cam cream, boil in the bags and bivvies!

:ok:

HEDP

9th Jan 2006, 22:07

Bored or boring? :E

As a tax payer it might be relevant to ask what is to be done to retain these aircrew costing 1 million a pop. If we turn them round every 4 years that is a hell of a cost.

What is to be done to accelerate to the full manning if we are already backfilling by 4 or 5 bodies to maintain the already understrength first regiment?

Many, many more issues that would raise concern lurk in the undergrowth too.

oggiebob

9th Jan 2006, 22:21

English! Crab Beefer - not - crab beefer!!

peoplespoet

10th Jan 2006, 09:12

MaroonMan4,
You don't have to visit this thread if you find it so dull! or is it that actually because you don't fly AH you are compelled to visit this thread in the hope that one day you may read something that offers you the slightest glimmer of hope at potentially having a go in the beast.

Try Bob or No if your looking for hope......else keep away!

Oh and by the way this thread is about AH pilots resigning and under that title the underlying reason's why surely is befitting.

PP:}

ShyTorque

10th Jan 2006, 10:29

Someone with this Profile:
Occupation:
Apache Aircrew wanabe"

Says this:
..or is it that actually because you don't fly AH you are compelled to visit this thread in the hope that one day you may read something that offers you the slightest glimmer of hope at potentially having a go in the beast."

Hello Po(e)t, Kettle calling!

MaroonMan4

10th Jan 2006, 22:49

Shy TQ/PP,

Edited and deleted - because I got involved in an unecessary slagging match with Shy TQ, without reading his thread.

Apologies Shy TQ

ShyTorque

10th Jan 2006, 23:20

Maroon, I was actually defending you. If you had done some research yourself, you would have realised that I am also a civvie tax payer.

P.S. military personnel are also tax payers.

Tsk! :rolleyes:

CSRO

12th Jan 2006, 20:22

Maroon Man 4 I agree, they are not lost.The first 2 going to ATIL are excellent QHIs (who I enjoyed flying with) with loads to offer and we will continue benefit as a Corps.I am sorry that there are so many others thinking of going who will be lost to the system.I know I will not stay the whole time, unless we get allowed to train properly rather than dwindle this great capability.Perhaps ATIL should civilianise the regiments?

Uncle Ginsters

14th Jan 2006, 16:40

See here in today's Scotsman......
Click for link (http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=62642006)

Uncle G :ok:

peoplespoet

14th Jan 2006, 17:27

Interesting reading, at least someone is aware of the potential disaster that may occur if the AH remains poorly funded and badly resourced.

I get the feeling that whilst money may well be something that could be offered to tempt pilots to stay for a while longer I doubt that it will keep the majority in unless of course the financial figure is significant; already people are leaving when they could get FRI2 thats 50K for 5 years service..........Mmmmm.......not working is it.......... but why?

Well one reason may be quality of life, the chaps I see on a daily basis that are in their 20's look like they are in their 40's they are knackered, worn out and fatigued.

Don't visit an AH pilot within the first few days of his leave, as he will be ill in bed, plagued by illness that his body has fought off until rest is available.

Great aircraft but what an existence....AttackKKKKKKKKK... What..

PP.
its good to talk, start listening!:}

Ed Winchester

14th Jan 2006, 20:52

Well one reason may be quality of life, the chaps I see on a daily basis that are in their 20's look like they are in their 40's they are knackered, worn out and fatigued.
God help the poor lambs if they actually have to deploy anywhere. Give me strength. :hmm:

CrabInCab

15th Jan 2006, 13:56

Front Seater:

Late start Mondays and early finish Fridays like the other two services; get with the plot my dear chap! Light Blue Sqn, currently supporting 3 different ops on top of Ex Tropical Storm, Clockwork, Jebel Sahara, Mountain Lion, Eagles Blah and Herricks Whatsit. Old airframes in desperate need of replacement (read extension to 2024 if the latest rumours are to believed) not withstanding the IDT, IRT, CCS, FPC, WHT etc. Oh and don't forget the ISS, JOCC, JEWC, JAEWC, CEWIC, QHTI. Oops almost forgot the Airtests and Groundruns.

We're all in the same situation......

SO MAN UP WET PANTS!

peoplespoet

15th Jan 2006, 15:38

Crabincab,
If your stupid enough to put up with it then more the fool you, I'm not on AH and don't suffer the way these chaps do, but just because you also suffer doesn't make it right either. Its not as if the wages service pilots get is remotely reflective of the monies our cushy airline friends get.

so I'm sure many of the AH drivers will continue in the sterling manner that they have already in delivering AH capability; on time, under budget and to a very high standard. But they have a point, flying GH with the AH is very, very different to fighting AH competently!

PP Out...

CrabInCab

15th Jan 2006, 21:14

PP,

Didn't say I agreed with it, just that most of us (if not all) are in the same boat!

mingthemerciless

15th Jan 2006, 21:35

Don't visit an LCC pilot within the first few days of his leave, as he will be ill in bed, plagued by illness that his body has fought off until rest is available.

It is not all roses in the commercial world.Better paid mind.

Bomberpuke

16th Jan 2006, 16:12

There is a RAF post available on 3 Regt, just hasn't been taken up for the last several years.........

owe ver chute

17th Jan 2006, 16:53

Ref the RAF exchange at 3 Regt. For a few years the DRQHI was RAF when the Regt was at Soest. After that I recall a crab Flt Comd (rank of Sqn Ldr) at 653 Sqn.
To train a guy or girl for 12-14 mth, to only get 18 mth return of service before they return to the RAF then have nothing further to do with Attack Aviation doesn't make sense. At least the Army officers who move on after the same investment end up at desks that revolve around 16 AA Bde or DAAvn and pass on hard earned knowledge onto the staff officers that sit a little higher.

FrogPrince

17th Jan 2006, 17:40

Out of curiosity, I've just 'googled' this from the Boeing website:
U.S. Army National Guard and Reserve
Nine U.S. Army National Guard (ARNG) and two U.S. Army Reserve (USAR) components are now flying the AH-64 Apache. The ARNG attack battalion in Arizona flies the more advanced AH-64D Apache Longbow; all other units in the Reserve Component fly the AH-64A Apache.
States with ARNG units flying Apaches include Arizona , Idaho , Mississippi , Missouri , North Carolina , Pennsylvania , South Carolina , Tennessee , Texas , and Utah . The USAR units flying Apaches are located in Kentucky and Texas . Texas is the only state with both ARNG and USAR Apache battalions.
ARNG units have been fully engaged in operations around the world including Operation Enduring Freedom, Bosnia and Kosovo.
Are the pilots all ex-Regular and just the F/T component of the NG / Reserve ?
How many hours does a reservist in North Carolina have to fly each month to remain current on the AH-64 ?

peoplespoet

17th Jan 2006, 18:05

OVC,
You are correct with the statement that at least the AAC officer remains in an AH desk job or appointment, not sure that I support the view that they pass on quality information; more their own opinion which is often what the hierarchy want to hear rather than what is actually happening or is required/needed.

The biggest problems occur when an officer makes a decision that is only taken in order to get him/her through their 2 year posting; and because they are unlikely to return to front line aviation they will never be made accountable for the desperate situation that is left behind. Things like ...HALS,Spares,Helmets,Breakout-Tools, Navbags,Ammo,MPS and not to forget the manning crisis and the many more greatly managed projects that remain inadequate or unavailable.

Oh and everything Else can go on the risk register...that must be like yellow pages by now!

I could be wrong though?:bored:
PP.

AHQHI656SQN

17th Jan 2006, 19:37

Frog Prince.

The Army National Guard units are not all ex-regular soldiers.
I was lucky enough to do an Apache course at Fort Rucker, where the majority of aviators who were on A model Apache were from Guard units, mostly converting from Cobra, a lot of them were young men off the street, who joined the local Guard unit insteed of joining the regular army. They are CW1 and above, they have an obligation to return a set number of years and a set number of days on duty. One fella who was on the cse in ahead of me from New Jersey was a UH1 pilot, and flew on the 100 aircraft lift for Hamburger Hill (I'm not talking the film!) another fella Charlie (great guy on the p155) from the same unit was also a Vietnam war veteran.

I don't know how many hours they fly, I didn't keep in touch with the people I was with at Rucker, I'll see if I can dig out an email address and ask for you.

foxtrot tango

17th Jan 2006, 20:14

An AH-64 aviator (A or D) has to fly 140 hours per year whether they are in the active componet or the National Guard. This flight time can be reduced if they enter late in their training year.

FrogPrince

18th Jan 2006, 08:32

Many thanks for the 'gen'. There's hope for 6 and 7 Regts AAC (V) in 2012 (2017?) then !

:hmm:

mutleyfour

18th Jan 2006, 09:46

6 Regt will not see AH as it will have no aircraft because its function is to backfill groundcrew on Ops.

7 Regt, hmm, that would be a major coup.

FrogPrince

18th Jan 2006, 10:05

Oh, I know 6 Regt AAC(V) is groundies only. I have a personal interest in these developments.

The roles of both 6 and 7 will evolve over time - hence the reference to 2012. By then the Gazelles will be gone, to be replaced by (insert fav choice), Future Lynx, SABR, Watchkeeper UAV, UCAV etc. will be with us. In short, the demand for aviation in the future battlespace is only increasing whilst market forces will cause the usual peaks and troughs in demand for ex-military aircrew to go ATPL / CPL.

Logically, reservists are a flexible labour force to complement the Regulars. Given the size of the GA pool in the UK, it is entirely feasible for the AAC to source pilots into military aviation who have not come from the ex-Regular route. This obviously works for the US Army, even with as complex an airframe/weapons system as AH-64.

mutleyfour

18th Jan 2006, 10:21

Intersting points FP, however Future Lynx and SABR are dead, BRH is the new buzz word and even if accepted at UK PLC level won't be here until 2012 at the earliest according to industry sources.

As for joe bloggs walking in off the street to fly AH at the weekend in order to integrate fully into an op unit as and when surely is pure fantasy in the UK.

We are after all talking about the UK Defence Budget

FrogPrince

18th Jan 2006, 10:36

I don't really imagine a reservist will be flying AH anytime soon.

However, that doesn't preclude their use for other aircraft, such as UAV's when the CAA tells the army it needs qualified pilots to fly Watchkeeper in uncontrolled airspace and there aren't enough to go around quickly enough.

Feasible isn't the same as practical or likely !

By extension, this also means that Uncle Sam must have money to burn on a capability that is neither effective nor deployable, which I doubt.

peoplespoet

20th Jan 2006, 08:22

AHQHI656SQN or any other AH driver:

Is the rumour true that AH pilots now qualify at CTT without having live fired at all, and will only fire cannon during CR training. I Heard it in the crew room and argued that it couldn't be true. As an old Mk7 TOW driver and having to fire TOW during CTT to qualify surely this is not the case?

If it is true it marks the beginning of the end for AH....and so soon!

PP

SASless

20th Jan 2006, 11:49

Frog,

I cannot answer the flying hour question. However, the Guard and Reserve pilots are not full time soldiers. A very small number are and are called Technicans when working as a Civil Service employee at the Guard Flight Activity. The Technicians would be called Cadre in some places but serve a dual role when in the Guard.

The Guard is the State Militia and are subject to both State and Federal duty if called by the Governor or President for active service.

The Reserve has no State obligation.

These folks are our neighbors...the banker, plumber, lawyer, truck driver....teacher...accountants....who are not "full time" members of the military. When they finish their deployment to Iraq and other places...they revert to their regular professions.

Not all the pilots are from "active duty" and many have done only Guard service with all flight training and conversion courses being done at Active Duty Army Schools.

Guard Pilots must meet the exact same standards their active duty brethern do....they attend extra training sessions beyond the one weekend a month and two weeks active duty training each year.

The notion only Active Service people can accomplish the mission does not hold water. Add to that, our Reserve and National Guard troops are an integral part of many "Active" units....and do so as "units" and not individual "replacements or fillers".

AHQHI656SQN

20th Jan 2006, 12:08

Peoplespoet.

I'm not sure if you are fishing here, like you know the answer and you're just looking for it to be backed up by somebody who's on this forum overtly.

The truth is I wasn't aware that CTT no longer had an ammunition allocation, and that CTR would only fire 30mm DP, I'm now curious. There hasn't been any such chat in our crewroom.

Please check your PM's.

CPG

20th Jan 2006, 18:33

I am in agreement with you Tom that i have heard nothing of the ammunition being cut for CTT or CTR. Think PP is fishing, and all you have to do is look at the amount we have for the forth coming exercise loads of bangs. Sorry PP but think you may be ill informed on this one.

AHQHI656SQN

20th Jan 2006, 20:13

CPG and Peoplespoet.
I've had it from a very good source that it is true about the ammo being cut from CTT. I do wonder how SAAvn will train its instructors on weapons if they don't get to fire live ammo, then there will be a credabilty issue, how can an instructor talk about diving fire if he's never done it.
This could be the very thin edge of a long wedge!

peoplespoet

21st Jan 2006, 12:02

I am not fishing, I'm no reporter. Thought it was a fair question best answered by an AH driver.

I agree that we are at the thin end of the wedge if you don't have to live fire to qualify from CTT. What next? you will be telling me that Mountain flying or NVG has been removed.

Never mind put it on the 'risk register' and as long as the field army can pick up the pieces then nothing is lost. I do wish that when we have money taken from our training that our lords and masters would just turn round and say No. I understand that pressure will be placed to still achieve and thats understandable, but at what long term cost?

I wonder how a civilian company would deal with a situation where they cant afford a component vital to the production line. Just leave it out and hope it still works when it's switched on? Good planning and management that would be..Not.

I do remember reading a phrase that the British forces once had great pride in "Train Hard...Fight Easy", must have been a lie as it never caught on at all in aviation.

PP.

Very cynical

mutleyfour

21st Jan 2006, 19:05

I also remember the Ministries reasons for reducing the Armed Forces not so long ago included:

A leaner but much better equipped Armed Forces...Ive first hand experience of the lean as well as the mean but with regard the equipment...not seen.

:mad:

owe ver chute

21st Jan 2006, 20:32

Peoplespoet.
There has to be a requirement for any project to get funding; here is some food for thought.
When was the last time that any fighting formation relied upon the AAC to win a battle?
The majority of the senior officers in the Army right now will have come through the BAOR School of war fighting, where the Lynx with TOW was always the last resort when calling HELARM now, Mk 1 Lynx to the rescue! To be fair whenever the Lynx live fired it was with PRAC so that wouldn't really impress the socks off anybody would it? So in my opinion very little faith was put in it. The Lynx was never funded to go to BATUS why? When it did make the odd cameo appearance it had such a devastating effect the Cavalry had very little to do. Get off my train set, BATUS was set up for Armour! Enough said!
The modern Battle Group commander who is outside of 16 AA Bde (24 Bde before it) will not get the intimate working knowledge of the new Army Air Corps, as all of the Armed Regiments now Attack Regiments are in one basket, to be fair even 16 AA Bde didn't really grasp what 3 Regt had to offer during Op Telic 1, it took 7 Bde to get the most out of Lynx TOW and the mighty Gazelle. As for 847 NAS they were devastating and made a massive impact. 3 Bde don’t go anywhere without Avn!
So onto funding issues. 3 quick fire questions and answers:
1. Does Arty struggle with ammo funding? I don't know, but I know that an AS90 or MLRS crew don't qualify without live firing lots of ammo. Hey Churchill has Arty ever played a decisive roll in any battles? Oh yes! You can bet your arris it has, it’s so "well in"!
2. Does Armour struggle with ammo funding? I don't know, but I know a tank commander will not qualify unless he's fired live, day and night moving and static. Hey Churchill has armour ever played a decisive roll in any battle? Oh yes!
3. Does infantry struggle with ammo funding? I don't know, but I know that a Warrior commander will not qualify unless he's fired live, day and night moving and static. Hey Churchill has Infantry ever played a decisive roll in any battle? Oh yes!
There is a pattern emerging.
The teeth arms have a great deal of support in the higher echelons and as much of a force multiplier as aviation is, everybody is fighting for funding.
Now if the tank was to replace the horse on the battle field then hundreds of horses will be surplus to requirement, so just imagine if the helicopter was to replace the tank? Everybody knows that will never happen; there will always be a need for armour. I’m not sure how much support the AAC and Apache gets when it comes to the odd funding battle. The hype about fire and forget missiles the video footage of Apache destroying targets with impunity and ease give the wrong impression, it looks easy, so it must be! If it’s easy then why do you need to train? Train Hard Fight Easy!
Now a big issue. Officer careers. A young Army Officer straight out of Sandhurst goes AAC, spends about 18 mth pilot training, then if he’s really lucky he’ll get loaded onto An Apache CTT (these start every 6 mth so if the timing is wrong he could wait up to 5 mth) CTT lasts for 6 mth, then 6 mth CTR, he’s been in the Army 2 ½ years without even commanding himself let alone men. His piers in the Infantry and Cavalry would have been Tp/Plt commanders, done BATUS maybe an Op tour, how can he compete? But he has to. As a result the CTT package must not exceed 6 mth, make it fit SAAvn!

I’ve heard the odd rumour about poor flying rates at Dishforth, the reasons vary from no spares, no techs and even no pilots, cos they’re away doing Army orientated disciplines. I’ll bet every pilot has done OPTAG trg prior to Herrick! What ever the reason it would appear that the Army will soon be asking these lads (a lot of them mates of mine) to do some serious sh1t. Now if pre-tour flying rates are low for what ever the reason then the AAC will have learnt nothing. A few people kicking about will remember Ploce in 1995! Not good, and I hope and pray there’s no repeat.

I said at the beginning “there has to be a requirement for any project to get funding”.
One simple question. Does the Army consider the amount of funding required for Apache to be good value for money?
Until Army Avn pulls somebody out of the sh1t, I doubt it.

Given this background I wonder if there is any truth that the AH pilots at Dishforth are going to leave when opportunity knocks! Time will tell.

peoplespoet

21st Jan 2006, 21:58

OVC,

Don't worry yourself OVC I read last year in the telegraph that they are 'ready' for war, the CO broadcast his message to the world media during an open day with a battle cry of "just give me someone to fight" so they must be.

After statement like that imagine the humiliation if they are found lacking in any department.......... it will be a nice shiny medal, promotion or an early pension for him for sure!

PP

Sloppy Link

25th Jan 2006, 11:36

Ammmunition has not been cut from CTT. It has simply been moved to CTR. Rockets were cut from the training last April for all, 30mmTP is still fully supported.

peoplespoet

25th Jan 2006, 13:42

derrrrr,
It has therefore been cut from CTT; meaning that to pass an attack helicopter conversion course you don't have to demonstrate the ability to actually shoot anything, which was my original point. If its just a case of moving it then why not move, mountains, IF or `night flying?

It will certainly keep the course length down and improve the pass rate!

Is it not the case that the ammunition that would have been fired on the CTT is not included into the ammunition allocation for CTR either, apart for a couple of bangs? Therefore actually cutting the ammunition allocation because there isnt any remaining for training!

P.P.

Sloppy Link

25th Jan 2006, 17:32

I'll see your derrr and raise it to a D'Oh. If something is cut, it is taken out, if it is moved then it is conducted in a different phase of the training. From the AH OSP....

CTT ammunition
30mm = X
Rockets Prac = Y
MPSM Prac = Z

CTR ammunition
30mm = A
Rockets Prac = B
MPSM Prac = C

Reality is...

CTT = Nil

CTR =
30mm = X+A
Rockets Prac = Y+B (when they become available)
MPSM Prac + Z+C (as above)

Rockets and their availability is matter of funding (being addressed), the amount required to complete training (under review) and the lead in time from ordering to delivery. The move of firing to CTR was taken as a measure to ease the strain on the overloaded CTT process. IRRC this applies to the current CTR and the next one will resume firing but probably only for 30mm. The rationilastion of CTT/CTR training will produce a more joined up approach whereby hypothetically mountain flying will fit later in the pipeline but formation flying will fit earlier.
Finally, NVG is not taught at all at the moment but NVS is (different optical wavelength). DNVG is not far away though.

Tom,
A SAAvn Instructor should not be doing diving fire, he is not qualified and it is not a TO for a student. All serials are conducted in the hover for CTT therefore that is all a SAAvn Instructor is required to do.

SL

peoplespoet

25th Jan 2006, 18:36

I disagree,
The figures you quote is what I am sure should occur, but the reality is somewhat different I am led to believe from an experienced AMTAT member. The 30mm has not changed for CTR and the CTT ammo has just been swallowed up, or taken as another cost saving measure.

But I reiterate the fundamental point i raised; which was how can someone qualify from an Attack Helicopter course without demonstrating his/her ability to shoot sh1t. Can you imagine a tankie or a infantryman leaving training and not completing APWT or basic weapons qualifications live! It sounds like you have had something to do with the removal of the training from CTT with way you defend the ridiculous idea!

Either way as long as the standard of the chaps on the 2 way range is what is required then fine, but why do the Americans fire at CTT, CTR and every month leading up to Ops. and when not on Ops every 6 months regardless of cost or consequence?

PP.

:}

Sloppy Link

25th Jan 2006, 21:19

The CTT shoot as part of a CTR has yet to happen.:p Methinks you consider a CTT to be the end of the matter, this is not the case. RAC/Inf, upon completion of basic training, are not ready to go on ops straight away and neither is an AH CTT dude, there is more to be done, in fact, if you do know someone at AMTAT as you claim, he will educate you about progressive training methods and the many shortfalls that a CTT graduate has compared to a AH CR pilot. He will also know about the firing requirements, it's good to talk, their number is not a secret.
Comparison with the US is an old chestnut that is worthy of comment. The main reasons they get so much ammunition is firstly they can afford it and secondly their crews need it to achieve the same level of accuracy that our crews can. I am fairly certain that if their ammunition budget was pared down to our levels, they would not be quite so cavalier about their ammunition expenditure.
You appear to have not helped even though you claim to have the ability to from an earlier post. It might even be said you are doing anything but.
SL
:bored:

CSRO

25th Jan 2006, 22:02

CTT ammo has been cut, after a steady reduction before that and no rockets before that.
Mountains has been cut.

Thank good ness we are not going somehwere mountainous that we require to shoot somebody!

I have done all my ATDs, BPFA and a BCFT though!

The whole thing is a joke and I am considering following the others who have resigned. I support previous posters "how can you qualify on a weapons platform if you don't ever shoot sh1t"? I am too frustrated and not being allowed to train for my job:{

HEDP

25th Jan 2006, 22:10

Chaps,

Just to clarify, initial weapons assessments are carried out in the simulator as part of CTT. The weapons package is taught at CTT as a whole to a basic standard. CTT only ever exposed the crews to initial consequence of fire standard requiring a full table.

Moving live firing to CTR as opposed to CTT enables more progressive use of the ammunition and therefore in theory a better product at the end. Qualification was never achieved until the end of CTR anyway as several tables of munitions are required progressively,

Regards,

HEDP

peoplespoet

26th Jan 2006, 08:14

I have just heard that project AH has lost another instructor (PM), I havnt seen him for a while so not sure if its true. I understand he is still a member of AMTAT but has been discharged on medical grounds? (always was a deaf bugger).

Not sure how this will impact on the program but the loss of another instructor can not be good. The last time I served with the 'badger' was in FRY, he was a door gunners nighmare as the ac comd! (joking)

Could someone that actually knows PM let me know what the bobby is, 'badger' if your a pruner PM me please.

PP
:confused:

Jeep

26th Jan 2006, 13:10

HEDP,

I think you are are wrong. It is my opinion that individual aircrew need to fire live weapons on the CTT to achieve the basic level. Individual skill. They should then progress their tactics, and collective skills with further tables at CTR. Individual skills at CTT, and for an AH pilot, that means firing live ammo. Cutting live firing or reducing basic live ammo from CTT is the wrong approach.

The US Army conversion to AH has them firing 6 tables of 100 rounds, 10 rockets each. Front and back seat, running/diving and hover, both day and night. Their equivalent of CTR has further tables for collective training/unit qualification. They do it that way not because they can afford it, but because it is the the correct way to train an AH pilot.

Compressorstall

26th Jan 2006, 13:21

Comparison with the US is an old chestnut that is worthy of comment. The main reasons they get so much ammunition is firstly they can afford it and secondly their crews need it to achieve the same level of accuracy that our crews can. I am fairly certain that if their ammunition budget was pared down to our levels, they would not be quite so cavalier about their ammunition expenditure.

Sloppy Link it is a smug comment to assume that the US lags the British in terms of ability. The US Army does seem to have substantial experience of AH operations with their fleet of about 500 helicopters. It may be assumed that, just like us, they have aviators who range in ability from 'low average' to 'above average'. Just because we don't do it that way doesn't make it right. I would be happy to have any nation's AH with me who is confident that he can put rounds on target. Military aviation is an expensive business.