VGS - Can you Nav?

[Chandelle-eur!]

Seeing as some VGS folk seem to know an awful lot about a school near Basingstoke can anyone help me with the following:

In an aforementioned thread there is reference to someone flying in controlled airspace from said airfield.

1- Does the QGI know how to read a map?
2- Who signed this QGI off as to having competent knowledge of "The rules of the air" let alone "Air Law"?
3- Is said person really an instructor?
4- Do non PPL/CPL/ATPL staff at these VGS know how to nav?
5- Was his map up to date and containing relevant airspace boundaries?

Help.

I'm wondering if a child of mine is safe flying in her Maj's machines when rumours as above are rife and widespread.

What qualification in flying terms does a VGS QGI hold in a civilian equivalent?

[BEagle]

The holder of the ATC Instructor's Qualification valid for the Vigilant Motor Glider who wishes to obtain a NPPL (SSEA) shall:

a. Produce log book evidence of having satisfactorily completed flying training under the supervision of an authorised instructor in a single-engine piston aeroplane which must include:

(1) Not less than 1 hour dual instruction in stall/spin awareness and avoidance;

(2) Not less than 1 hour dual instrument appreciation;

(3) Not less than 1 hour supervised solo flight;

(4) Not less than 4 hours navigation training or successful completion of the ‘Air Cadet Vigilant Transit Qualification' training syllabus, including one solo cross-country flight.

b. Pass the JAR-FCL PPL (A) theoretical knowledge examinations;

c. Hold a valid NPPL Medical Declaration or JAR-FCL Class 1 or 2 medical certificate;

d. Pass the NPPL (SSEA) NST and GST.

[frigthestoat]

In responding to Low Break's point no 5. Do we asume that these so called instructors fly with out of date maps in a service aircraft? Perhaps they make do with the 2004 AA road map or the OS ramblers map. Who is supposed to check that a map is up to date? I suspect Mr sloping shoulders.

[360BakTrak]

Does trundling down to another airfield you can see from 8000' over your home base for a low approach and go-around count as a nav trip?!:E Some of you know what I mean...............;)

[Chandelle-eur!]

FTS - I'd love to buy you a beer or tart fuel whichever is your tipple! You do know an awful lot about said VGS! and it is ALL true so anyone on here bleating on about LIBEL should go use a dictionary.

360 - "Going-around"!!!
Ever flown near a bowl?

[360BakTrak]

Chandelle-eur! ......not with me at the helm! Whats the term for it?.........oh yeah, FACIT!;)
In reference to the maps, 1/4 mill low level maps only show airways with a base of flight level 55 and below. Therefore the higher level airways are marked on by hand at the unit concerned.........surely someone is responsible for that?!?! CFI? UFSO? Or the old scapegoat Flt Lt Slopey Shoulders as mentioned above?! Perhaps current 1/2 mill maps would be better suited to the task, provided people are capable of reading them!

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

Not hearing much about military aviation here.

Gliders seem to use there priveledges under the rules of the air to go wherever they see fit.

If you haven't got the correct chart for the airspace you are about to fly in, then don't!!

As to who is responsible for correctly marking the carts, as always it comes down to the Captain.

I haven't heard much on this thread to give me confidence of the professionalism of the VGS system. Perhaps we should disband it and give the money to the AEF/UAS system?

[Chandelle-eur!]

Professionalism and VGS's don't seem to go together full stop.
Not when you read about said school in Hants where the head honcho seems to breed discontent.
What we have to remember is that many are just seeking to fly as P1 and call themselves instructors under the guise of teaching "air minded youth".
Frankly, from what i have seen and read, any parent of an air cadet in the aforementioned schools area should be worried.
I just hope HQAC and whoever the governing bodies are that supervise the VGS at the very least take notice of the so called "rumours" on here.

No smoke without fire.........

Perhaps those who type their discontentment on here do so as they have no faith in their "chain of command".....

Anyone got any spins on this?

[[email protected]]

Yes, those electric charts with all that airspace on are just too heavy to carry!

[HEDP]

Hi J, how's life with you?

[Chandelle-eur!]

Who is J? and what is that to do with this thread?
If you think you know who someone is (above) private message them!

So, HEDP, whats your view on VGS' and in hampshire in particular?

[frigthestoat]

Chandelle-eur-lots to think about here. I will certainly keep any cadets of mine from going to fly at this place in Hants (presumably 618 VGS )(I believe 622 is an excellent alternative and run by a true professional) As for chain of command-a joke so it would seem, as a chain is only as strong as its weakest link and look at the weak link down there running 618. HQAC have obviously got their heads where the sun don't shine and are very reluctant to pull it out. Lets hope that we don't see smoke and fire together when one of these "expert instructors"pulls a cunning stunt like flying in to controlled airspace whilst out on a sightseeing mission(without a map!)

[DK338]

Hey ho! Tried to exercise self restraint but here I am.

My creds? 500hrs Silver 'C' lapsed AEI, flown with RAFGSA and BGA civvy clubs plus, ahem, ex G1 with the VGS system.

I've flown with two VGS's both winch launch Grob104 'Viking' schools so my experiences/comments are limited to the 'proper' gliding type of operation.

Both schools were staffed by enthusiastic friendly people who enjoyed what they did and who generally operated within their limitations. Some were professional aviators, both Mil and Civ and some more held PPL's although the masses were chimps like me, just glider pilots.

Unfortunately, there are some who should not be let within 100yds of a VGS glider let alone with little Johhny Miggins up front. I've witnessed some appalling demonstrations of flying 'skill', ranging from low level high 'g' turns to unauthorised and poorly executed aerobatics, also there was a general lack of understanding of navigation, map reading or airway structure and worst of all, an wholly inappropriate self belief in their flying ability coupled to a derisory opinion of any gliding performed outside of the VGS system, which to me was particularly annoying as their experiences of the wider gliding world was non existant.

so to answer you questions:-

1- Does the QGI know how to read a map? - Probably not

2- Who signed this QGI off as to having competent knowledge of "The rules of the air" let alone "Air Law"? - All abo 'C' cats attending the 'C' cat course at Syerston take a battery of exams which are virtually identical to the BGA Bronze 'C'. These I believe are the only aviation related exams taken at any instructor level.

3- Is said person really an instructor? - In the eyes of the ACO yes, however outside in the real world no, but the BGA do recognise the VGS quals and providing Bloggs satisfies the local BGA examiner he can be awarded a BGA instructors ticket commensurate with his VGS Category. But then the reverse applies, a BGA Full Cat can't just start instructing on VGS aircraft because he's a Full Cat, he'll get a check out first by ACCGS.

4- Do non PPL/CPL/ATPL staff at these VGS know how to nav? - From my experiences, No! Most are ex cadets who have been brought up within the system, most have not ventured outside of it because, to put it frankly, it's free gliding.

5- Was his map up to date and containing relevant airspace boundaries? - On Viking schools nobody flies with a map as they're not allowed outside of gliding range of the airfield and anyway there is no map store and nobody can be @rsed. However a Grob104 at 4000' AGL will go a long way and if your siuational awareness is pap then a modicum of map reading skill might be useful.

Overall the VGS system, although far from perfect, does a very good job getting Johnny Miggins from Abo to solo safely and is achieved with monotonous regularity, remember most cadets never set foot in a glider ever again so the quality of the final product I feel reflects that. The main problem is with individual VGS's and that, without good supervision from HQAC, and in particular Sqn Ldr GL1, they can very quickly become a little feifdom which sadly seems to be the case with the oft quoted VGS.

Finally, would I send my snapper to a VGS? No chance! If I were to expect my kid to fly properly I want them taught properly from the start, RAFGSA for me!

[Speed Twelve]

I did a year as a staff cadet on a Scottish Viking VGS (20 years ago!), and as far as I can recall it was a professionally run outfit. Looking back from my current perspective (instructing mil EFT) the instruction I received as a cadet was excellent, and standards throughout the staff seemed to be consistent.

On the other hand some of us from the sqn pitched up at a well-known civvy gliding airfield in Scotland one day and were blinded by how gash the operation was...

[Chandelle-eur!]

DK338

Many thanks for your insightful reply to the thread.

It now seems abundantly clear that VGS don't get any formal nav training, hence this character at EGVO didn't really stand a chance.
Was he aware that the final responsibility for current maps rests firmly on the shoulders of the captain?
It appears not, either that or he has become forgetful.
Again, not the type of FI i'd want my child to fly near let alone with.

The maps 1/4 mill carried, i am assured, seem unsuitable for the job in the UK's busiest corner of airspace.
It would also appear that the person responsible for keeping said maps updated and available on the school as a whole was not fulfilling his job properly either.
So now we have 2 people that have questionable traits.

Does this gliding range rule apply to the motor glider outfits?
If so i assume that people will climb to what they assume/think/guess is as high as they can, so they can get further away from home base.

Either way airspace and navigation requires an acute understanding of barometric settings so are we also to assume that the aforementioned FI/QGI (whatever he is) has a handle on QFE / QNH / FL's?!

Someone said in a previous thread he was solo "SCT".

What does this mean? Is this a usual trip?
An instructor flying solo? Was it a positioning/transit flight?

Either way it sounds that its safer that he was solo.

Apparently he has a portfolio of misdemeanours..... anyone else know of this chaps antics?

Remember, its only libel if its untrue.

[HEDP]

Chandelle,

As you asked,

I think that this thread is a disgrace and by that I dont mean the event being discussed but the fact that it is being done so on an open forum at all.

I think that most people who have commented have done so at the expense of the overall reputation of an organisation that is designed to introduce youngsters to aviation in this guise.

I doubt if a public witch hunt is required of an individual or individuals unknown to me however, with a thin veil that would not prevent them being identifyable to many.

I understand that there is a balance to be struck regarding the incident and the interests of the organisation and those that it is aimed at but I am afraid that this is not the forum for the debate.

This will cause incalculable damage to the reputation of a particularly usefull organisation and the effect will be all the greater for it being discussed on here.

IMHO

HEDP

Oh and try not to be so rude in the future, I would hope that it doesn't become you!

[g126]

I agree that the VGS's are magnificent organisations, introducing today's youth to flying and hopefully getting some of them hooked. I personally benefited from a GS during my time in the ATC and it was an amazing experience.

I don't think that the removal of the VGS is a good idea, it is a valuable recruitment tool for the Air Force. I remember at Syerston on the squadron that I was on, that many of the cadets were aiming to join as pilots and many of them had not considered it before doing scholarships and many stay on and then put back into the system that has given them so much.

However, that obviously does not remove the need for safety. If there are genuine issues with some of the pilots then let's address them and let the organisation move on. There will always be risks, as with everything in life. We can reduce them as much as possible but there will always be risks. Don't let the fun police win this one!

As for whether or not it should be discussed on here on an open forum? If people on here have sons and daughters who use the VGS then surely they have a right to know, however for the reputation of the unit, maybe it would have been better to have a general VGS rant rather then a squadron specific one.

[frigthestoat]

HEDP
sorry old boy (or old girl without being sexist) you are wrong. This does need a public viewing as they are paying for the VGS to run. Public money is in short supply and if this sort of thing is going on, the public have a right to know. It should be stopped, or the VGS closed down. A bit drastic perhaps, but i am reliably informed by some of the more enlightened members of the VGS fraternity that this is the tip of the iceberg. I wonder what the reaction of viewers will be if one of these irresponsible instructors leaves a big smoking hole in the ground or causes a mid- air collision. Questions in the house or what?

[Chandelle-eur!]

FTS - Thankyou

HEDP - Firstly please don't think i was being rude, my energy here is used in typing not personal conflict.
I was merely asking questions in a thread I started.



ALL-

There would appear to be a leaning in some minds that the whole movement needs abolishing.
I can safely say that that would be a catastrophic decision in anyones eyes.

The level of responsibilty in VGS life seems to outweigh the knowledge a few people seem to have. That fact alone is worrying.

I am all too well aware that there are a great many excellent instructors in the VGS world. However there are a few that seem to spoil it for the majority. As in all walks of life.

The key and irrefutable difference between civilian flying and VGS flying is that the carpet is far lumpier in MoD portakabins.

As it has been previously stated in at least 2 other threads on here....
If anyone outside this VGS fraternity, including RAF/RN/AAC units, PPL or general civvy skygods, had a mid air collision or flown into controlled airspace, we are talking CAA and licence issues.
Insurance companies would be seeking liability claims, civil law suits would follow.

Are these cowboy types at a VGS, and i know they are a minority, really so bullet proof as it appears????

[SirToppamHat]

It is 17 years since I held a G1 with 2 VGSs, both Viking, but the only occasion I broke the rules (in 450+ launches)I was torn a new @rsehole and grounded for 2 weeks (airborne at 5000ft over North Lincoln when the Red Arrows came back to Scampton - I was in receipt of a FIS from Waddington).

IIRC, the VGSs were visited at least twice each year by ACCGS Syerston, and once by CFS - does this still happen? I don't recall any particular problems of the sort mentioned here. As a staff cadet I worked my bits off for the 'free flying', but there was always the sense that those in the powered community were not having to work as hard as we were, and I hope that the comments here are not based on that sort of ill-feeling.

One thing I would say is that towards the end of my time I had to become a CI, which was a logical progression given my age and where I had got to in the Organization, but there always seemed to be the opportunity for civilians with no military or ATC background at all simply to become a CI with VGS; I was always a bit suspicious of their motives, but on the whole they were a decent bunch. Certainly I couln't fault the commitment of the 2 who used to drive up from London to Scampton every weekend.

STH

[HEDP]

I'm glad you feel you have the right to take apart individuals or indeed an organisation in public if you feel the need! I take it you will also claim to be above the laws of slander and the like as well!

If there is a need for an examination of an organisation then perhaps several individuals hiding behind their anonymity casting dispersions on others is not the way for it to be done.

Please bear in mind that this is a rumour network and as such can be taken in or out of context and embelished as peoples agendas require.

I will leave you with this question:

If you had made a mistake of some kind then how would you feel about it being picked over on a public forum by those who hide behind the security of their anonymity? Comfortable or not?

Regards

HEDP

Sorry I'm already a couple of posts out of synch! And I note that the agenda has already moved in parts to the cost of VGS and of closing them down, all within the last few posts! Perhaps this illustrates how a thread can wander and damage can be more widespread than originally intended.

[Chandelle-eur!]

HEDP -

My dear fellow,

Slander; false and malicious statement about a person.
Oxf Eng Dict

Let me assure you there are no false statements in the above.

Malicious; the desire to cause harm to others.
Oxf Eng Dict

Nothing of such kind here, merely ascertaining other opinions.

If that doesn't sit comfortably then perhaps a rumour network would not be the best place to play.

It is abundantly clear that you know very little of said organisation, or what is entailed in its performance.

Firstly, when i have made mistakes, i have held my hand up, and not blame others.

Secondly, if indeed this was an individuals FIRST mistake i would appear to be more lenient.

Thirdly, if i had to count how many examples on this website of such accused attitude as you have made, i would have to take my socks off to count them all !

Fourthly, whilst i thank you for your insightful replies to my primary, thread starting questions, i hardly think that you have brought anything worthy to the thread in general.

Thankyou to everyone who has participated in the thread but as usual the minority spoil it for everyone else.

Q.E.D

[HEDP]

Ah hell,

I can't be bothered with this, bye all! Hope your agenda is succesfull!

HEDP

[Washington_Irving]

This thread is going nowhere fast. Most people are using innuendo and alluding to incidents that can easily be taken out of context by the usual scumbags that loiter around looking ofr something salacious to spread across the pages of a red top.

I have no real idea regarding the particular incident in quetion. I will say that, from my prior experience with a VGS, I find it surprising that anyone would be authorised to conduct a solo jolly to 8k+ in a Viggie (since, IIRC, measurement of the climb to such altitude requires the deft use of a calendar and a marker pen). In my experience, a/c were rarely available for such frivolous nonsense, since the unit tasking inevitably got in the way of having too much fun. In a little less than a decade, I don't think I flew more than 20 sorties, once I got my wings, without a sprog, a trapper or another instructor (for REQUIRED SCT) in the other seat.

I have to say however, that I have some real questions with regard to the value of the use of SLMGs by the ACO. Leaving the fact that they have always had really sh1tting servicability rates aside, I spent 9 years or so, man and boy, with a Viking school and I consider them to be a much more valuable tool as the very nature of their operation requires a far greater amount of teamwork. We all know that the BGT/Gliding Scholarship (or do they call it something different these days?) will not contribute much to the development of stick and rudder skills of a future Typhoon jockey.

The way I always saw it, the Viking schools were always a much more cohesive bunch than their Venture/Vigilant brethren, who always seemed VERY individualistic. (Notice how the back-biters on this and the other thread seem to come from Viggie schools.) To be honest, we always thought the Viggie drivers to be a little, well, weird.

If you're on a conventional school you are in no doubt that you aren't going anywhere if the people around you aren't doing their part- pushing, pulling, launching, recovering, driving, winching etc. and everybody spent the day rolling around in the mud and getting wet together. In the (albeit limited) time I spent with Viggie-types, it was clear that the only thing they did together was attend the ops brief (and sometimes the pm shift would have a different brief from the am) and socialisation never went farther than asking to borrow a tin of silicone boot polish. (The easiest way to visually identify a Viking pilot from a Vigilant pilot was to look at his/her boots- The Viking chap's boots are usually in rag order since the boots aren't designed for running around fields.)

Even as a visiting cadet from a squadron, which gives you the most rewarding experience? Sitting in a crewroom watching Top Gun and reading old copies of Air Clues and the DRJ, waiting for a second rate AEF trip; or spending the day learning how ops work, participating in launching and recovering the a/c etc., with the launches and flights themselves being something totally different from anything else they will experience in their ATC career. A day at a Viking school even gives the pie-eating little b@stards a pretty good workout.:ok:

[ILLUC IVI ILLUD FECI]

This thread, along with the one on similar lines about the Vigilant collision occurrence, has the potential to be very damaging to what is a very safe organisation, run by volunteers, for the benefit of the UKs largest youth organisation. I am not part of the air cadet organisation but I have a good deal of admiration for the commitment of those that are.

A few facts:

The air cadets have a good safety record; much better than the BGA or private flying.
The air cadets fly a huge number of hours each year (I am sure someone could provide the actual figures, but 20,000 hours has been mentioned).
The air cadets have something like 900 gliding instructors.
All instructors receive their instructional qualifications from the RAF Central Gliding School.
Each VGS, and 50% of all instructors, are checked by the RAF Central Flying School every year.
The RAF Central Gliding School also visits every VGS every year.
Those air cadet instructors allowed to fly outside of the circuit are taught an appropriate level of navigation.
Each motorglider VGS has an officer responsible for maps and documents.
The aim of the VGS is to provide gliding induction courses and to train cadets to solo standard – not to enter competitions or teach cadets navigation.

To answer the original navigation questions:

1- Does the QGI know how to read a map? – Yes if he needed to use one
2- Who signed this QGI off as to having competent knowledge of "The rules of the air" let alone "Air Law"? – An appropriate military authority
3- Is said person really an instructor? – If he was qualified to go outside gliding range, yes
4- Do non PPL/CPL/ATPL staff at these VGS know how to nav? – Yes, if appropriate to their task
5- Was his map up to date and containing relevant airspace boundaries? – don’t know but the answer should be yes

For the benefit of those who might be concerned from what appear to be the rantings of a few disgruntled or uninformed individuals, the collision occurrence was the subject of an RAF Board of Inquiry and appropriate action was taken on the findings. I am led to believe that, despite some anomalies with regard to authorisation, the actual collision was between 2 aircraft operating autonomously in class G airspace – hardly a function of the aircraft belonging to a VGS.

The VGS volunteers provide huge numbers of air cadets with the chance to fly an aircraft solo. 99.9% of these instructors are assessed by the RAF as competent for the role they fill; bearing in mind that not all instructors are allowed to send cadets solo. Those (any) instructors found to not meet the required standards can, and do, lose their qualifications.

However, human nature being as it is, individuals will sometimes do inappropriate things and personalities will occasionally clash. I would recommend that you use the information above to put air cadet flying into perspective and do not rely on a couple of instances that may have been brought into the public domain by someone who is either ill-informed or has an ‘axe to grind’.

[BEagle]

Very well put, that man.

There are established processes for reporting legitimate safety concerns, 'Trial by PPRuNe' is not one of them.

Thank heavens that someone is looking after the air-mindedness of our youngsters.

Formative stick-and-rudder skills learnt on a cold wet aerodrome in the cadet movement are priceless.

[Chandelle-eur!]

BEagle...

Can i reiterate something i have stated before....

The normal chain of command and protocols of reporting flight safety HAVE FAILED.
At this VGS, so i have been private messaged...

1- Condors have been submitted to DASC / Innsworth.
2- Letters have been sent to HQAC by worried staff.


As for everything else, i love the ATC, i love my memories as a product of it.
I am proud of everything the corp does and still does.


In danger of stealing someones thunder, would someone from said VGS come on this thread and explain why there was a recent reshuffle said VGS down south?

and remember.... the truth... dare it be spoken?

And before anyone dare asks.... would you put YOUR child in peoples hands that have done some inexplicable acts of airmanship?

May i suggest they revert back to Trevor Thom Volume 1 ?

[scottyhs]

Got a friend whos going to be a staff cdt pilot at a VGS and in asnwer to the question of is your child safe.... sorry to say i would say no!

I my self as a cdt dont like flying in the VGS with staff cdt pilots as the majority i have met (and thats quite a few) are idiots!!

However the CGI's i did my Gliding scholarship with are a different story, (i did do it at ACCGS Though) but the majority were ex service and all very competent!!

The main problem is not with the CGI's i think its with letting 17 year old cadets go become a "pilot" and hen show off when somebody they know turns up at the VGS!

A way to solve this is to implement a system like the pilots at AEF have to go through, that way you know what your getting with the pilots and they should be trained to a high standard!

[Another St Ivian]

As I stated in my post on the other (now locked) topic, I often found that there was a allot more ego than ability. It's no surprise either...

As the above post points out, when you're ~18 or so, you still have a hard time really getting to grips with responsibility and the mortal repercussions it can have when you don't exercise it. However I don't think it is necessarily a failing of the individual but of the Unit. In my experience the atmosphere and ethos of the VGS went a long way to encourage this winged skygod attitude prevalent amongst many. From my limited experience of a certain VGS I felt there really needed to be a complete culture change in the way flying operations were executed. To be honest, it really needed a couple of 'grown ups' !

Anywho, I've only experience of one unit, I am told it was the worst of a bad bunch so maybe all is not lost!

ASI

P.S. If there's anyone from 636 VGS at Swansea reading this do say hello, I am considering applying in the near future :8

[chevvron]

Aw c'mon guys; there's not enough 'AIR' in the Air Cadet movement as it is without all this whingeing. Might it be that some of you are jealous that HM sees fit to give these guys a shiny SLMG to fly for free when others have to pay for the privilege?
I was a Staff cadet/instructor at 17 on a VGS, and can assure you that standards are always maintained.
The rule when I was in was that you must NOT go cross country ie out of sight of the airfield unless you carried a map AND WERE AUTHORISED; also in an SLMG, you must remain within gliding distance of your home airfield.
More recently, because of the perception there was not enough 'air' in Air Training Corps, I participated in an experiment to see if 3-axis microlights could be used to provide air experience/flying scholarships; even this was checkable by CFS -yes civil registered aircraft!

[scottyhs]

"Statement retracted"

[david clark]

Well, have been reading this and the other thread and have held back from replying - but not any more (and yes, I've registered just to do so).

FACT - VGS instructors and pilots have far more instructor/examiner checks (by CFS and CGS) than any normal PPL (who can quite legally do 1hr every two years to stay legal).

FACT - The daily briefing, authorisation and supervisory oversight is far more than in any flying club.

FACT - The incident / accident stats do not support any of the accusations made by some posters.

FACT - The standard of flying instruction in terms of technique, discipline and procedure (for the ac and role) is very high.

The whole organisation is run on the principle of a stepped hierarchy with increasing levels of responsibility and training at each stage. It works - the picture some posters are painting of young 17 year olds hairing off for some free flying is simply not true. A G1 gets fully checked on his flying, emergencies, sortie management etc.. every 3 months, has a 31 day currency, gets trapped etc.. etc.. The organisation is a sausage machine which aims to get as many kids solo per year as possible, as well as doing experience trips. In that role, it is very good. The VGSs are not about landaways, Nav trips etc.. - therefore most of the instructor cadre are not expert in that role, and don't need to be.

A few sad, disgruntled individuals have dragged the organisation through the mud this last week. They are many of us out here that are totally committed to delivering professional and effective VGS flying training, and doing so in the spirit of the regular RAF. If you look hard at the staff of many VGSs you will see that we are not a gash bunch of wannabes - just look at many of our CVs and you will see we have nothing to prove other than wanting to give the air minded youth of today a great start.

[Elmlea]

Hi David,

Your FACTS are all fine and well; but I think one thing people have been alluding to is that regardless of the number of checks you have, your ego can still run away with you.

I could be checked by CFS one day and still break the rules the next; the difference being it'd be due to my personality rather than my competence.

I've never flown with a VGS, and I've only met staff from two. One seemed like a nice bunch of people who wanted to fly air cadets. The other seemed to have a few people with a bit of a Top Gun/aviators/flying suits/look at me issue.

Now, if they're 17, and they behave properly in the air, why the heck shouldn't they strut around enjoying themselves when on the ground? I don't really care how they conduct themselves on a Saturday afternoon around my station as long as they do the right stuff airborne.

I think this thread is diverging slightly. Based on what people are saying regarding trapping it seems crazy to think VGS pilots are misbehaving due to a lack of ability; and if any are misbehaving due to misinflated egos, then that's something best left to the CONDOR system etc?

[Wholigan]

Well, as a mod I suppose I am not supposed to comment on things like this, but I am now commenting as an individual.

david clark --- well said!!

One of the problems with threads like this is that people only see half of what is happening around them and assume that the other half is NOT happening because they don't have "personal experience" of it happening.

One of the things they don't see is the resultant action that a Condor generates, because the Director guarantees anonymity. Because you haven't seen the vast amount of effort behind the scenes on any Condor, doesn't mean that nothing has happened!

Quite frequently, there has been a word in the correct ear, which is usually far more effective than anything else.

I have been VERY reliably informed that all of the issues in this particular case have been addressed effectively by DASC.

The effectiveness and reliability of ANY flying unit relies entirely on the individual personnel involved in the supervisory chain. If an incident is raised into the overseeing horizon of the flight safety empire, it has been my experience that said empire goes to any lengths to ensure that any known problems are solved. Knowing the individuals involved in the empire, I have great faith that the problems are addressed effectively and in a timely manner. If you have information that could lead them to believe that this is NOT the case, then I suggest that you write to DASC with any and all facts at your disposal, rather than posting innuendos in an anonymous forum such as this. You will - of course - still be able to remain anonymous, but (rest assured that) your concerns will be considered thoughtfully and conscientiously by those in the appropriate appointments in DASC.

The only real reason I am sure of this is that I raised this thread with someone in DASC who explained to me exactly what had been happening on this topic.

If you don't agree with me or don't believe me then that is your prerogative. However, I really would recommend that you use your time to write to the correct people rather than posting allusions, hints and intimations that you know that "all is not well" and that the whole of the VGS world is populated by cowboys.

[Spot 4]

ILLUC IVI ILLUD FECI said:

I am led to believe that, despite some anomalies with regard to authorisation, the actual collision was between 2 aircraft operating autonomously in class G airspace – hardly a function of the aircraft belonging to a VGS.
:yuk:

I got from the coal face that it was a premeditated air-to-air photo "opportunity". Any auth misdemenours would never have seen the light of day had 2 serviceable aircraft landed that day. It was not an accident it was negligence caused by inappropriate and bad flying by trusted aviators.

I suggest that DASC should also have ensured that it was covered by their circulars, but of course they couldnt if it 'didnt happen'. My last Condor got me a Wg Cdrs interview*, and once bitten twice shy. [*To thank me for my honesty!!]

Rumour control this may be, but smoke and fire comes to mind.

[FFP]

I used to be a 17 yr old G1 / C Cat, so I can speak with experience . . .

1500 hrs later with the military, looking back I can say that now, I wouldn't have let the 17 yr old I was be in that position of responsibility.

Did I do things people have mentioned on this thread ? Yes

Did I know anything about Rules of the Air / Air Law ? Not really.
(But then, anyone whose done the ATPL Air Law exam any more than a week ago could say the same !! ;)

But, did I learn valuable experiences and lesson that have turned me into the professional I am today ? Indeed.

So there we go. I think that Staff Cadets, if that's what they want, should be made to leave their ATC Sqn, become CI's and make that break, which would stop much of the ego related behaviour.

Disclaimer : I have no knowledge of the incident in question and in no way should my comments be taken as being based upon it !

[Wholigan]

My last Condor got me a Wg Cdrs interview*, and once bitten twice shy. [*To thank me for my honesty!!]


Hope you don't mind but I'm going to ask a question on this. As far as I understand it - this should not be able to happen!

[BEagle]

The CONDOR system is, without question, a system which can be relied upon with total confidence to deliver what it says on the tin.

As a bit of a cynic (as some may have noticed), this is something about which I will only be serious. I would unhesitatingly commend the CONDOR system to anyone involved in military aviation. Your confidence will undoubtedly be respected.

[Spot 4]

Guys

Dont have a runaway up about DASC for their integrity is intact . In my case a 'friend' (Stn FSO) let the system know what I was doing. Had I kept the fact secret, it would have remained so. It is difficult to have a strong view about an incident and not discuss it amongst the crewroom, and I sought advice in order to ensure the complaint was system directed and not personal.

Many years earlier I had used the Condor system to good effect and got a nice letter from "Spry" by return with a full explanation of remedial action taken.

[Wholigan]

Thanks for the explanation.

[Washington_Irving]

Scottyhs wrote:

Got a friend whos going to be a staff cdt pilot at a VGS and in asnwer to the question of is your child safe.... sorry to say i would say no!

I my self as a cdt dont like flying in the VGS with staff cdt pilots as the majority i have met (and thats quite a few) are idiots!!

However the CGI's i did my Gliding scholarship with are a different story, (i did do it at ACCGS Though) but the majority were ex service and all very competent!!

The main problem is not with the CGI's i think its with letting 17 year old cadets go become a "pilot" and hen show off when somebody they know turns up at the VGS!

A way to solve this is to implement a system like the pilots at AEF have to go through, that way you know what your getting with the pilots and they should be trained to a high standard!

Evidence that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Only a few of the instructors at Syerston are serving or ex-RAF aircrew. In my day, it was OC ACCGS and the Chief Instructor and a Sqn Ldr from CFS EW. The only way you would have flown with a CGI is if you had a relief instructor from a VGS.

I was once one of those 17yr old G1s to which you refer. Everyone I knew in the same boat took their job very seriously when flying little Billy around the skies. In my experience (and I came throught the system as an FSC along with around 8-10 others on the unit) there was tremendous peer pressure to become recognised as a good stick and , perhaps more importantly, a safe pair of hands. If any of us decided to push things a little too far (normally when solo or when flying mutuals) he would be reined in by the others in pretty short order. Our real arseing around tended to be done on the ground- accordingly non-flying days were pretty popular too.

Now please, be a good little spacey and STFU until you have the first damn clue about the subject on which you are pontificating.

[ATPLTrainee]

I have to agree, i've always found that the knowledge and ability of staff on gliding schools i've visited has always been of the highest quality.

As a younger member of the VGS fraternity i'm currently a staff cadet pilot. Although we may appear to be cocky and pretencious on the ground we all take our flying and the safety aspects involved very seriously and would never jepordise the safety of others. By the time staff are qualified to carry student passengers they will normally have acumulated many hours, normally at least equivalent to those required for a ppl(A) bear in mind that a microlight pilot only requires half fixed wing time to gain their ppl.
So if the option was to fly with a new G1 in a vigilant or go up in a microlight i'd choose the viggie anytime.

I'd like to know what replacement the sceptics out there would propose to replace an organisation like the VGS?
I'm happy to admit that it isn't without its fault, but compared to your average flying club its superior. A lot of this is down to the hard work and dedication of its staff, a staff of volunteers who give up alot of their time to help people like me get a real flying start in their lives.

[Chandelle-eur!]

This thread is not, was not intended as a slur to the whole movement and i have reiterated that enough.

This thread was my asking 5 questions about an incident that was meant to have been reported through DASC via CONDOR.

Apparently it has "been dealt with".

To my knowledge, thanks to learned aquaintances down south, NOTHING has changed in regard to maps and their use.

As it happens lots of other points have been coming out the woodwork in other threads as well as this one.

Maybe an external view of incidents is now called for.
I mean, what exactly was a "cadet" learning from a premeditated photo shoot.
From what i recall, formation flying was not part of a cadets syllabus?
It wasn't in my IGT, or BGT, or AGT, Or G2, Or G1, Or C Cat, Or B cat. Or ... nah (that would facilitate a witch hunt that is well underway!)

That is of course is previous comments are accurate as to the lucky escape 2 crews have had.

Someone somewhere must have looked at this and been quite upset. It has upset me that things are this low ebb.

Someone must have seen all this "smoke"........

I wonder if anyone will go try and find the fire? I sincerely doubt it.

[background]

First of all I have registerd just for this Thread. I'm absolutely disgusted with Chandelle-eur and the way he is conducting himself on this Forum.

From my experiences on a VGS which I may add is a lot they are an extremely professional organisation on the whole. Im not saying there are some problems but they need to be ironed out by the appropriate people.

Chandelle-eur - I think you need to put this one away and I thuink this thread should be locked to prevent any further damaging of the VGS's reputation.

Thankyou,
Background.

[HEDP]

Chandelle,

In your last post even you ascert that the incident you allude to has been 'dealt with' and therefore I would ask you what else you wish to achieve by continuing this thread?

If it has been dealt with then whatever has been changed will have to 'bed in' and then be reassessed at a suitable time in the future.

This would seem to be a reasonable solution so is it not possible for you to 'permit' this to happpen without further undermining?

What more do you wish to achieve?

IMHO it would seem that the unit in question ought to be assessed over a period of time and where necesary suitable further steps could be taken as the need arises.

Regards

HEDP

[Frelon]

I agree with Background. I spent 25 years with an Air Cadet Gliding School (OK I now see that they are Squadrons!) but they were 25 years of hard work, good flying discipline and above all constant awareness of the safety of the cadets that were flown.

Chandelle-eur it seems that you have your own agenda - please do not use Pprune to push it.

Get a life - and fly safely.

Remember you pass this way but once - it is not a "practice run".

Frelon

[chevvron]

ATPL Trainee:
Last I heard (but it may have changed) you needed 10hrs P1 to carry out Air exp in a Vigilant and 25 hrs P1 to carry passengers on a PPL A (M). Course it's the continuity that's different; as has been mentioned you get periodic checks in a Viggie; a PPL A (M) stilll only has to do 5 in 13.

[Chandelle-eur!]

My agenda is flight safety.

Perhaps taking a look a previously posted views on other (now locked) threads will enlighten you all.

What happens when the procedures in place break down?

Ever wondered what makes people do certain things?

I wish i lived in the rose tinted world that some people do, especially those with no idea how VGS's operate.

Lock this thread please, the uneducated and mis-spelling types are driving me mad.

Take the bigger picture and stare at it hard... real hard.

I just hope i don't ever get the chance to say "told you so".

cheerio...... Have a nice Xmas.

[HEDP]

I must say old chap I get the impression you must be an insufferable CRM nightmare in the cockpit! Slightly overbearing and a tad put out when others dont necesarily agree with you. Teddy in the corner....................

[scottyhs]

"Statement retracted"

[background]

Scotty,

You obviously don't understand a VGS structure.

CGI- Civilian Gliding Instructor.

CGI's aren't normally Execs these positions are filled by VRT officers, so it will be very seldom that a CGI would make a decision like this unless they are a B-Cat and are the DI that day. Even then a Exec would normally step in.

Please don't post about what you don't know about, as you are a Cadet on a AEF, which is a completely different setup.

Just like to say Merry Xmas to other VGS'rs out there and lets have a great years flying next year to pu all the sceptics in place

Cheers!

[scottyhs]

"Statement retracted"

[Washington_Irving]

Scotty,
I only quit the game a couple of years ago. Do you think I don't still talk to the guys that are still there?

IMHO you are talking out of your hoop. Not even ACCGS perform aeros in the Viggie- it's a Viking only thing. The only thing I can think of that might mitigate the BS you are uttering is a circumstance whereby the FSC in question was bigging himself up over a shandy or two in front of a bunch of impressionable numpties, such as yourself.

Once again, keep your mouth shut and your ears open until you're qualified to speak on the subject. For the record, the BGT/GS stude that has just earned that silly little badge and wasn't selected for instructor training were considered to be the most insufferable little strokers in the Corps by the ones who did.

[background]

I have to agree!

Any adults like to comment?

[scottyhs]

"Statement retracted"

[background]

And what has Linton VGS got to do with anything? They only know the same as anybody else in the VGS world!

Think your getting some wild and duff information here and trying turn a rumour into a fact. As i;ve said before let the appropriate people deal with incidents, they don't need a know it all cadet getting involved!

[scottyhs]

"Statement retracted"

[Low Break]

Scottyhs,

A cadet who i know became a g1 on viggies, did a while on there one day got bored and went and did a few aeros in his viggie whilst solo (breaking the rules)

Wow, what sort of vigilant was this?! I want one :hmm:

[Washington_Irving]

I'm sorry, but 5 days at Syerston and the ability to strap someone into a Tutor does not make you an expert. So please, one more time- shut up, you child. You could drop the entire system in the sh1t with such blatant nonsense.

(Edit) I give you the same amount of respect I give anyone else who tries to pontificate on a subject about which they know approximately 4/5 of Sweet FA. Now go away and give yourself a good talking to.

[scottyhs]

"Statement retracted"

[background]

Scotty,

I never said the VGS world is perfect, just that on the whole it's a great organisation and i'm very gratefull for the free flying and the previlige to fly in one of her Maj's a/c!

Whats your mum cooking you for tea!! Maybe you might have a can of Murphy's with it if you were old enough, because your not bitter! Not.

[scottyhs]

My mothers dead thank you.......childest response i see from you there.

Im allowed to have my opinion and state facts on a public forum if you dont like it thwen simple:

a) ignore it and dont post in response

b) dont be a part of it

I was willing to retract what i said but not now, i dont see why i am trying to put something across that i said about 20 posts ago, what i said is true, it was told to me buy the ex FSO which i dont think any of you would question if you dont like it PM me and i will get you his mobile hnumber to ring and ask him!

[Washington_Irving]

Oooh, looks like someone needs a time out.

;)

[background]

Or another dummy!

[scottyhs]

"Statement retracted"

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Instead of denigrating this young man by ganging up on him in this rather bullyish manner, take him up on his offer. PM the chap get said experts mobile number and call him and get the gen from the horses mouth......just a thought on how to stop this playground squabble:rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[HEDP]

Gentlemen or perhaps Ladies is more appropriate,

I wish some of you would just grow up and remember that wherever you are from, however old you are, what you are doing is on a public forum and is certainly not shedding VGS, ATC or the wider military community in anything like a good light, enough said,

Places on flak jacket,

Kindest Regards,

HEDP

[scottyhs]

"Statement retracted"

[Washington_Irving]

Is that your way of saying that you don't know what you're talking about and that you're winding your neck in?

[scottyhs]

"Statement retracted"

[BFMD]

Scotty, please do everyone a favour and stop your drivel, as you obviously don’t have a clue about anything. As is previously mentioned I’m fairly sure your stories are tuck shop gossip. I hate been petty, but I think you may struggle to talk to the ex-FSO officer on Linton’s VGS. Its been the same fella for the last 15 or so years and the fella before him has nothing to do with the ATC anymore.

My experience of the VGS system has been nothing but professional and safe. We all work very hard (for free) and are totally dedicated to the cause. During my 9 years on a VGS I have only seen 1 very minor incident. On the other hand, I’ve had a PPL for a much shorter time, but have seen many more bent aeroplanes sat in the hangar of my local flying club resulting from foolish incidents.

I’m not saying its perfect, as in any walk of life you get the plonkas, but I know for certain on my VGS they didn’t last for more than a couple of weeks. I’m also fairly sure that if anyone did slip through the net they would be dealt with by ACCGS during a standardisation trip.

Going back to the original question of can VGS pilots/instructors nav?- Yes, within the scope of our tasking. I do however think the system could be tweaked and the Transit Qualification course or something similar be made compulsory for all instructors.

[background]

Yeah fair enough, that all went a little far.

What are peoples opinions of the VGS world in general though? I know we do have this "pre madonna" look to us and I myself can see this in a lot of places. Mostly though it is because most of us haven't made it to be RAF pilots and suddenly we get an aircraft to fly for free fro the RAF. This is great and standards are useually kept very high, much higher than a lot of flying clubs and BGA clubs.

There are obviously some individuals that spoil this, but there really isn't any way of stopping it as you will always get "Loose Cannons".

[HEDP]

Now that things have calmed down,

Actually I was interested in whether additional staff would be required? I am already a service pilot, although rotary, with Chipmunk experience in the dim and distant past. I have enquired about AEF before but there was never one close enough, anything in the center or east of England and how would I go about enquiring?

Regards

HEDP

[Low Break]

There's an ad on the ATC website normally...or search for the VGS and give them a ring

[BFMD]

HEDP

Have a look at http://www.aircadets.org/links.html, there's a few VGS' on here.

I'm sure any VGS would welcome someone with your experience.

Please don't read into some of these posts too much.

[DaveyBoy]

I know we do have this "pre madonna" look to us and I myself can see this in a lot of places.
ROFLMAO... and thanks a bunch for making me spill the best part of a mug of hot Red Bush Tea all over my lap whilst tears were streaming down my face!

I don't normally pick on people for spelling on here [not enough hours in a day - ed], but that variation on prima donna was priceless, cheers :ok:

Hope there's no hard feelings mate... :cool:

Dave

[L-H]

Spent about 8 years VGS flying when I was in the RAF, got into it after meeting a VGS type at the Eastern Regionals, only stopped a couple of years ago due to girlie pressures which was a bit odd as she was a VGS CI when we met!

Had a ball, met some of the best people, all thoroughly dedicated and hard working, not perfect by any means but then of course I clearly am :} !

The VGS system is not about Comps, cross country or aero's but giving young people access to something most could only dream about, yes It is a sausage machine, but the system has never pretended to be anything else. On both the VGS's I flew with the FSC's were exactly what I would expect of a teeneager; adventurous, robust and hearty with a thoroughly healthy outlook to life and it was up to us adults to keep the little blighters in check and furthermore, I would argue that it is exactly this type of character we should foster.:E

Now that I've got my life sorted I intend to go back and start again with my local VGS and continue where I left off. Might have to drug the wench though:E :E

[Washington_Irving]

If I were a parent now I would be more concerned by 15,16, 17 year old kids getting pissed the night before in the mess and if I had a daughter, you could bet she wouldnt get anywhere near a VGS, I've seen plenty of that going on too. But then again, they gonna do it anyway and I suppose the back of a 4 1/2 tonner or a winch, land rover, glider, parachute store, (delete as applicable) is a variation on a knacked old citreon saxo on the beach boulevard...

Sounds like we were at the same place.:E If we were, you neglected to add the Adj's desk.

[Bob Viking]

I've just read this thread for the first time and page three onwards is just hilarious.
The subject should have led to a sensible discussion and then put to bed. Instead we had Kevin the teenager trying to defend himself against a much more literate and knowledgeable adversary. I could almost picture him sat at his computer with steam coming out of his ears. Brilliant.
Scotty, for the record, I have offered you advise before and I feel it is time for some more. Don't ever reveal your true identity, because you WILL regret it! If you are looking for a career in military aviation then don't ever be dragged into something like this again, be it in real life or on Pprune. I'm afraid you made yourself look like a real @rse.
I got where I am today by knowing when to just shut up and listen to those who know more than me. Oh, and with a modicum of flying ability but lets not go there!
However, Scotty, if you do get dragged into it again I really want to be there to read it.
For the record, I did a BGT and didn't go back as an instructor. Does that make me an insufferable stroker?!
BV;)

[Washington_Irving]

I guess that all depends on whether or not you tried to big yourself up in front of a bunch of people who knew what they were doing. ;)

Don't get me wrong, we had no quarrel with those who did the course and went on their merry way. We just couldn't stand the ones that came back and tried to tell us how we should be doing things. Those are the people that tend to get short shrift.

[Airbus38]

I'm currently a c-cat on a Vig school pursuing flying in the civil world aswell. I must say, I have recently been appalled by safety standards that I have seen from civvie schools. Thanks to isolated incidents within the VGS system there's an awful lot bad being said about the system as a whole.

17-year-old pilots are not just the reserve of the VGSs, that's also perfectly common outside aswell. The big difference is that if youy're a 17-year-old G1 any flying you do is VERY closely scrutinised, and believe me, one foot wrong and you find out about it. 'Showing off' might go on, but not in the extreme. It's very hard to wangle taking your mates flying, whereas 17-yr-old PPLs can do this whenever they want to.

I think the non-believers should come down to a VGS of a weekend and would be shocked at the professionalism. If you don't get paid you make sure it's done right - You're there because you want the system to be a success.

[background]

Airbus,

Excellent points, I think you have hit the nail on the head.