Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?

[aytoo]

I understand from contacts and local press that all is not well in the state of PFI that is DHFS. Apparently both the engineers and the aircrew, represented by AMICUS and BALPA respectively, are deadlocked with the employers, FBHeliservices. Be interesting to see how that one develops. Wonder how the gap will be bridged by the military if the civvies do go out on strike?

[Spacer]

I doubt the engineering gap could be filled by the military, as I'm not sure there are enough people "in" with experience of the relevant aircraft.

[STANDTO]

well, this was never going to happen, was it? Another indictment of the contractorisation of the trades.

The bean counter seem to miss the point that people don't give a rat's ass these days, and are in it for themselves.

it was a lot easier when everyone worked for the Queen. :(

[HOODED]

Maybe they could make some of those redundant people unredundant and use them to fill in until this is over.:E

[The Swinging Monkey]

Its probably the wrong PC thing to say, but I hope the strike goes on, and on, and on, and on, and on!!!

Maybe then, someone will have the balls to stand up and say enough of this civilianisation or the ARMED forces.

It does NOT work, and it will never work. It is another dreadful money-saving decision by some faceless and spineless civil servant in his quest for promotion.

Kind regards
TSM
Switches back to safe, and I need a lie down desperately!!

[soddim]

Whilst an ex-military man may share the view that the military do it better, it is a fact that civilians do it cheaper.

Where the PFI enterprise fails to deliver it is often because somebody is either getting greedy and trying to do it on the cheap, or they are incompetant. In either case it can be solved by a change of contractor and most of the trained workforce will simply change companies.

The real test is coming later when the contractors have to train their own people from scratch. Watch the profits disappear then.

[Two's in]

PFI = Personal Fatcat Income. Surely nobody is surprised by this, and the civilian instructors are certainly not reaping the benefits of another example of Government endorsed fraud.

[pr00ne]

Two's in.

"Government endorsed fraud?"

Please explain.



Spacer,

I doubt that the military have anyone with the licences to permit them to do the work.

[Safety_Helmut]

Hooded
I'm sure it was tongue in cheek, but the ones made redundant are not exactly upset, they couldn't wait to desert the sinking ship. Just p!ssed off I couldn't join them.

Safety_Helmut

[WorkingHard]

It seems to me and a few more ex mil friends that in fact the civvies do not do it cheaper. What is not apparently taken into account is the cost of doing the actual job. With the services one finds the whole budget divided up into so many slices to arrive at a cost for any operation. These costs include pensions, retired pay, redundancy costs, etc etc whereas the "civvie" costs will be that paid to the contractor only. It is not just the bean counters that make decisions about these things. Get the greedy "scrambled egg" guys sorted and you may have effective and efficient military once again. If you think this is not so look at the structure and you will see an inverted pyramid if you add in all the "retired" people getting paid from the military budget. How many air rank do we have compared to how many aircraft for example? The system is a huge disservice to the people actually doing the job they signed up for and being shafted every now and then. Rant over!

[pr00ne]

WorkingHard,

“These costs include pensions, retired pay, redundancy costs, etc etc whereas the "civvie" costs will be that paid to the contractor only.

Isn’t that the whole point, surely that’s why it is so much cheaper!

[southside]

Before I write anything I must declare an interest in so much as I hold a lot of shares in Cobham.

Notwithstanding that, it is clear from the results from the UKMFTS that employing civilian companies to train military operations is not only cost effective but also leads to a higher Operational Capibility. I just hope (for my accountants sake) that the Guys at Shawbs can come to a amicable agreement.

[Safety_Helmut]

Don't you have to be over 18 to buy shares ? :E

[RileyDove]

When the Tornado F.3's at St Athan were damaged by contractors exactly how was that cheaper than service people
not damaging them? If you examine the PFI's in regards to education and the health service we end up paying quite a bit more than is immediately obvious for what is provided.

[propulike]

It is easy to save costs if you ditch a job's training system. Short term planning though. Suppose that's what happens when there is no long-term accountability and Governments stay in office for less time than the fallout takes to start. Assuming someone does bid, I don't look forward to discovering what the PFI cost will be when the training has to start up again.

Mind you, Shawbs going on strike must save the Station a fortune and improve low flying complaint stats into the bargain as well. Perhaps this could be classed a new initiative and rolled out across the rest of the Mil :E

[BEagle]

It must come as a helluva surprise to some to realise that any PFI contractor actually expects to make a profit!

Win the contract, get your feet under the table. Loss lead for the first few years; then, when MoD has no other option having flogged off all its own assets and pi$$ed off all its own work force, put the screws on them by telling them to pay more or do the work themselves.....

[pr00ne]

southside,

How can you say;

“…..it is clear from the results from the UKMFTS that employing civilian companies to train military operations is not only cost effective……”

When UKMFTS does not even START until 2007?


(Cobham shares down 1 to 161 I see……………………………….)


propulike,

Not all contractorisation and civilianisation are PFIs.

In contracting out maintenance and overhaul of non operational functions the RAF is not ditching a training system as it is still training and employing technicians but only for front line tasks.

[dolphinops]

Still "serving".
Seen civilianisation at various units over 26 years.
It has never worked to the planned outcome.
Seen many failures.

One question.
If we are saving cash by civilianising, why are we still having to cut???
The answer must be that we are not saving!!!
Just ask the boys on the "shopfloor".
Lyneham would be a good start.:E

[glum]

This whole cost / capability issue is governed by what you think the RAF is here for.

Are we here to defend the UK from whatever the Government sees fit? (Be it a physical attack on our borders or maintaining oil supplies for our heating, cars and businesses - our economy)

Or are we here to head off abroad carrying our national flag to pop into the map next to George?

Evidence would seem to support the latter, in which case we really don't need a lot of anything. Just enough to deploy in sufficent numbers to justify baing called an 'ally'.

[aytoo]

I believe I am right in saying that all the civvy QHIs at Shawbs have to be ex-military. If that is correct, how pi$$ed off must a bunch of retired Lt Cdrs, Majors and Sqn Ldrs be to even consider sitting around a brazier at the main gate? Seems that Bristows (at the top of the FBH tree along with Cobham) have enough problems staving off the imminent strike with their North Sea fleet. Southside, you may want to think about shifting your shares somewhere safer - oil exploration on the moon, or a dotcom venture!

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=197951

[Yozzer]

Q: Is a Serviceman who does not cross the picket line AWOL?

If the civvies are still there at 5pm that'll be a first! For when I passed through Strawbury they were all away by 3 and bleated like a pregnant sheep if rostered for first or last wave. * Except Tony M who must not like his home, or has ambitions of 20,000 hours!

Add to this the skill fade for few if any have flown any type other than the Wessex - Scout and other museum relics. They have no idea what flying non-stop for 7 hours + is like for it is decades since they last even considered it.

Somebody with big balls and an already established retirement plan needs to put 'military' back into 'military'. Providing a blue suit pool for Secondary duties and Stn duties, and a Training establishment with the kudos of having been there and done it in the 21st century.

Service protocol was not 'in my face*' until I arrived at the OCF, for MSHAFT has civvie protocol as well. *By this time I already had well over 2 years of service.

All out Brothers, and give the spawny few blue suits left behind a nice long Christmas. God I'm jealous!!!!!!

[STANDTO]

the other thing that often gets forgotten is that when the chips are down, you can still give an SAC a rifle and tell them to go and fight. Try that with a contractor

[KPax]

I have a very vested interest in this as a very close member of my family is on the bottom rung of the pay scale doing domestic type work. She claims that the main problems are with the 'highly paid' ex mil pilots who earn a nice wage topped up by penions etc who want more and more. Just remember the contract is not only made up of pilots there are other people who may have less of a say but are just as affected. She will probably cross any picket line should it come to it and I will support her.

[Max Contingency]

Unless things have changed considerably at Shawbury, will the civilianised Safety Equipment Section there be displaying a prominent sign stating that they are on strike?

Without such a sign it would be impossible to tell. ;)

[Molesworth Hold]

I thought this strike had been imminent for the last six months. Just for clarity how much does FBH pay Civilian QHI ? How much does a licensed engineer get paid? Without some facts its hard to make a reasonable judgement whether there is a case for industrial action. I consider that my pension has been bought and paid for, the money is in my bank on the 28th day of the month if I'm working or not. Any firm that factors in someone's pension into the pay scale can't be paying someone their full worth.

I can't speak about FBH from personal experience but a couple of friends who have worked for them speak very poorly of the management. In the first couple of years there were many redundancies. They also broke a long standing agreement on pay negotiation which they were forced to go back on after a lengthy period of delay.

Shawbury has always had a strong civilian element, the old fitness centre is still known by a few of the old timers as the Marshall's Canteen. Civilianisation kicked off big time in the mid 80's and by 97 was virtually complete with the advent of DHFS and the multi activity contract. There are now only about 30 junior ranks on the station. With the RAF reducing to 41,000 could it afford to employ any more people to work 8 till 5 Mon - Fri?

[soddim]

A typical management problem in privatised military services is that the management comprises people who could not cut the mustard in the services. Not saying that is the case in this particular dispute but I have seen what happens when an incompetant leaves the military for management of a military-related civilian company. They promote him and the company fails to deliver.

The military must demand high standards from its' contractors and monitor them meticulously to ensure they get it.

[jayteeto]

For those of you who don't know the workings at Shawbury, the system is not civilian only. It is a mix of mil/civil aircrew, with licenced civil engineers. The emphasis on licenced. The civilian aircrew generally hold licences, but they are not mandatory . I did my last flying tour (recently) there and found the civvie aircrew to be most professional AND qualified for the job, despite being out of the system for years. KPax.... They are highly qualified as well as being quite well paid. Domestic staff around the country generally get close to minimum wage, pilots get more, you can't compare. Your pension is EARNED, it should not be included in the determination of wages for a job. The engineers wages are very poor and turnover can often be high.
The question of a strike.... I now fly shifts as a helicopter captain for the police and am paid a lot less than the Shawbury pilots. However if I use my fixed wing ATPL and become a junior copilot on jets, I get a payrise. The same for them. Is this fair.......... They are only asking for a fair deal.

[Twonston Pickle]

Somebody mentioned better monitoring of the contractors; why bother? If we went back to all blue suits then we would be able to monitor better and use the manpower for other tasks.

It has often been stated that "Value for money" is what the Government want; a serviceman that does guard, FRESCO, ops, foot and mouth, as well as his primary job, seems to be pretty good value for money IMHO.

[vecvechookattack]

But so is a civvie QHI good VFM - as he's a lot cheaper than a Mil QHI and you don't have to provide the civvie QHI with accom, health care, dental care, home to duty pay, sports facilities, social facilities etc etc etc.

[Twonston Pickle]

You don't have to provide a civvy with all those things but then he/she doesn't have a service ethos, work ethic or can-do attitude that the majority (there are exceptions) of servicemen have.

Moreover, the contractor will charge you in the overall bill to provide the pension contributions, training etc, so they get their money out of us.

I am no fan at all of contractorisation; they cannot fight - our number one reason for being. Could you imagine the FSTA contractors striking (when it comes in)? The RAF will be unable to conduct an air war outside of the UK or fly the Army around the world!!!

[LFFC]

.... but what is the value of the package that a civilian employer has to offer to retain good ex-military instructors? Contractors often try to offer less than the going rate for ex-military instructors because they generally have good pensions - but any civilian employment agency would immediately tell you that that's "off-side".

Besides, that approach will only hold water for a short while - ex-military types should realise that their transferable skills are highly desired in the civilian world - even if they work in a completely unrelated field. It just takes the courage to make the break!

The bottom line is that a proper employment package (that maybe includes BUPA, relocation etc etc) will be quite costly for a contractor, and any so-called savings are usually just fantasy.

[serf]

Did they (QHI's) not ask about the salary at the interview?

Many of them are there because of the comfort zone, and being too old to secure a decent civvie job:ok:

[soddim]

There seem to be a few presumptuous young whelps around this thread who think that only the military are capable of doing a good job for the right price. They should study the capitation rate for the equivalent military grade before putting pen to paper and they would see why MOD have been able to save money by negotiating civilian contracts.

It may also surprise these same people that civilians can do the job better in many cases and with less people because they are not distracted by non-productive tasks like duty officer or other non-core activities. They also usually have less leave and spend less time in the bar.

Most of the service retirees who do these jobs carry the military ethos with them into the civilian task and, far from wanting to ‘stay in the comfort zone’ or being ‘too old to secure a decent civvy job’, they competed for and got a job directly related to the aircraft and flying they enjoyed in the forces. Many of them have never had any ambition to ‘secure a decent civvy job’ if that meant the sort of flying that bores even the passengers.

[Twonston Pickle]

Soddim,

You miss the point entirely; the civvies cannot deploy and can strike, servicemen can deploy and cannot strike. Which one do you think the military needs more of at the moment (and for the forseeable future)?

Too often, people focus on value for money, at home (UK) and during peacetime. What is missed by these people and our politicians is that the military is not meant to be "efficient", "value for money" or "cost-effective", whatever they might mean. The military is, effectively, an insurance policy that you hope you don't have to use but when you do, it kicks in straight away. How can we do that if our supporting civilian colleagues are on strike?

[Bertie Thruster]

The established, contract driven, world of the "public service" helicopter pilot in the UK is changing at last.

More and more 'customers' are progressing to directly employ their own support staff pilots. Part of this process requires the setting of comparative salary scales.

The "industry standard" salary scale for this type of job has now, for the first time , been quantified by several different 'peer group' salary reviews, all undertaken by government offices.

Contractors in all "public services" arenas (including mil training) will soon have to reassess their margins in the light of these reviews.

What is happening at Shawbury is just part of this process.

[BEagle]

Presumably, that means in English that contractors can no longer get away with trying to pay peanuts?

[jayteeto]

Twonston, wake up and smell the coffee. As you get older (and hopefully wiser) you realise that logic is completely and utterly irrellevant to a politician. If you ever have the honour to brief one and money is involved, there are two ways it can go. You say "I can save money" and he gets alert and listens. You say "we can do this better with more funding" and his eyes will glaze over. They really really don't give a monkeys, as long as it is cheap. :(

[Twonston Pickle]

jayteeto,

Patronise me, that'll get me on board! I don't ever remember saying in my post that this is what will or should happen. I concur that our politcal masters go for the cheap option.

All I'm saying is, you reap what you sew. I look forward (not with any degree of delight, rather, curiosity) to the first conflict when the Armed Forces are unable to deploy due to strike action of civilians or an unwillingness to allow us to use the very equipment we need (FSTA). What will the Government of the day do then? We will already have lost a signifcant amount of experience. Moreover, as the military gets smaller, where will the contractors magically get these trained and competent retired personnel to run the contract for peanuts?

I only mention these points so I can say "told you so" when it all happens.

[jayteeto]

Apologies if I was patronising, I didn't mean to be. Looks like you have it sussed well. You know they will blame the last government if it all goes wrong. Look into the history books, in the thirties the Brit Mil was run down and it nearly cost us dear. Goldfish have 5 second memories, Politicians are a bit better at 5 year memory cycles....

[Fortyodd]

Jayteeto - But the last government was the very same as we have now - and the one before that! As they are now in their 3rd term, blaming the "previous government" is no longer an option!

Happy Christmas to all at MPASG by the way!! :D

[jayteeto]

Might be worth reminding them, because they still use the same old lame excuses......

Oh, and thank you!! All the best to you too!!

[soddim]

Twonston Pickle,

A bit thick of you to claim that I 'miss the point entirely'. You don't need an education or to be in the military to know that civilian contractors cannot be deployed to fight or that they have the right to strike.

I can also without missing any point tell you that if the military go to war there would be no strike - if you had been around any civilian contract for the military during the Falklands conflict or the build up for Gulf War 1 or 2 you would realise that the civilians gave outstanding support.

I sympathise with those who would rather all tasks were done by servicemen and women but the military have found a cheaper way for the time being and if that provides more bang for buck in the front line then they are right to do it that way.

[[email protected]]

Well, I think they're a damn fine bunch of chaps! :O

Perhaps one will make me a brew tomorrow :E

[Controversial Tim]

Yeah. They can boil the kettle on their brazier ;)

SodditIt may also surprise these same people that civilians can do the job better in many cases and with less people because they are not distracted by non-productive tasks like duty officer or other non-core activities.So given the choice between contracting out duty whipping boy or primary roles, it's sensible to go for the latter. Leave fewer guys to do the other jobs as well as their main role and get more evidence to support your argument. Man, you're Genius.

Chimp.

[Twonston Pickle]

Soddim,

There are a number of strikes that have caused some concern and show that there may not be the level of support for the military that you suggest. Ops don't stop just because we are not fighting a "War". The threatened strike that started this thread is my first example, a threatened strike by cvilian caterers at a well-known lincolnshire airbase was another, along with the firemans strike during the build up to ops on Telic.

You are right when you say the military (MOD/politicians) have found a cheaper way but I don't believe you will find any evidence to support "more bang for your buck". I'm all for efficiency but not cuts or contractorisation just to save money.

[N Arslow]

Looking at other threads concerning reasons for the numbers leaving these days (and very similar to the days when I left 9 :} years ago) when does it all collapse. Personnel are leaving because the frontline/secondline ratio gets worse and because secondary duties etc. are more abundant thanks to fewer people - so time at home is less rejuvenating.

Those secondline jobs (that once provided a two or three year hiatus in the disruptive though rewarding life) have been contractorised so as these relatively larger number of leavers need replacing, so the training need increases - along with numbers of contractors - but where do they come from? The contractor has to train QHIs. How much will that cost? Who cares; they will write their own figure and we know who will pay. And even then - WILL the service they provide be as good as now?

It seems a problem that will only really materialise when the military finally stops shrinking because I am sure the steady state cannot be sustainable.

[swerve]

Love the quote from Serf - did you not check the pay scale before interview - guess he's one of those heros who never expect a pay rise throughout his whole career, , maybe one day he too will smell the coffee, or even understand what he is on about, without firing off without any knowledge of the subject - love him!!
Any sensible inputs would be well recieved - sniping can be directed elsewhere

[aytoo]

http://www.shropshirestar.com/show_article.php?aID=40375

[soddim]

Twonston Pickle,

Hard to believe that you are concerned about 'threatened strikes'. These are usually a last bargaining chip necessary in the civilian world to secure a reasonable salary for those who do not have the advantage of an independent pay review body looking after them. Rest assured that if the 'ops' you refer to are perceived to be important in this country's interest, they would be given the precedence they deserved.

How you can bring the firemans strike into this argument is beyond me - don't think they were ever contracted out of the military.

This country has an outstanding record of support for the military when required and ex-servicemen and women employed on civilian contracts are more not less likely to give that support. However, if the military are overstretched or inconvenienced by political or military incompetance, don't expect their support to ease the problems.

As for the application of savings to the front line from contracting out , that is a matter for the head shed and the treasury. If you care to look at the figures, the savings are there and are availiable - if they don't look like they have done any good think how much worse off the military might be without them.

As I wrote in a previous post, the savings might not look so good when the contractors have to train their own people from scratch and pay a decent salary and pension. At the moment they are getting away with low salaries and minimal training costs - when the real price of these contracts kicks in maybe your lords and masters will realise that Trenchards air force was well structured.

[serf]

They already have a decent salary, at least the industry standard for what they do; mainly single engine, onshore, vfr,monday-friday 9-5.

[aytoo]

serf, you wouldn't be FBH management by any chance?

Where exactly in the industry are you getting a 'standard' for CFS qualified, ex-military QHIs? I'm sure both sides in the dispute would be delighted to find such a standard!

The AMICUS members are holding a series of one-day stoppages through Jan & Feb (see link to Shropshire Star above).

BALPA members are balloting for strike action, with a result expected soon after Xmas - watch this space.

"mainly single engine, onshore, vfr,monday-friday 9-5"

Hmm. Maybe not management. They would at least know that DHFS encompasses:

Single and twin engine, dry and wet winching, non-procedural and procedural IFR, night including NVG.

I'll grant you monday-friday though!

[Twinact]

mainly single engine, onshore, vfr,monday-friday 9-5

twin engine, dry and wet winching, procedural IFR, night including NVG

Will there be claims for additional pay for those who maintain currency and instruct in the more demanding environments?

[6Z3]

aytoo,

I think you must have missed the "mainly" in serf's post.

In my opinion this is a disgraceful show by what is effectively the first generation of ex-military QHIs, supported even more disgracefully by their engineering co-conspirators. This is not the first time they've done it; The company narrowly averted a strike in 2001 (or was it 2002) when it caved in and awarded a substantial pay deal under threat of all out strike by the same crowd. Remember these are first generation ex-Mil colleagues paid to keep the future armed forces in the air. Quite amazing what happens to people once empowered by the strength of money and a union. These people are not struggling to make ends meet; The cleaners and the admin staff maybe, but not these chaps.

The MoD really must take heed under UKMFTS when determining the Civilian:Military ratio in its future Flying instructors. Any thoughts of Military Ethos, committment, loyalty, etc will no longer be there once these ex-military instructors are under civilian contract.

[BEagle]

Weasel, old chum, hopefully this will be a wake-up call to those who've been too keen to employ such mercenaries to do the jobs the UK military once did itself.

Where will the next generation of ex-military QHIs come from when the MoD no longer has any of its own to be attracted by the civil contractor? That is always the problem with excessive contractorisation - it starts out being able to select its own work force from a large number of ex-servicemen who will work for a 'top-up' salary to add to their military pensions and are content with their Mon-Fri lifestyle with no threat of a posting somewhere they don't want to be.

But then, as the years pass, the supply starts to dry up and it becomes an employee's market....

When the Mercenaries' Flying Training Scam starts, perish the thought, just how will the sustainability of non-service Flight Instructors be addressed? Particularly once the gathering airline employment market which is already siphoning all the experience away from the services gathers further pace.

Never-ending defence cuts, the creeping cancer of contractorisation... the MoD sowed the wind, it must now reap the resulting whirlwind!

Oh dear...what a pity...never mind.

[ShyTorque]

Well said, Beagle.

Market forces rule every time; contractorisation can only ever work if the people are available and prepared to work for the contractor. If the going rate goes up; they have to accept that or lose staff loyalty.

As far as loyalty to the country and MOD (!) etc. goes, I recall that MOD had no problem in making many pilots redundant a few years ago when it suited them.

The pool of suitably experienced helicopter pilots now seems to be shrinking. For some years the main employers (not just DHFS) have put nothing into bringing along a new generation of pilots and it seems unless they address this soon the industry will find it difficult to maintain crew standards.

[serf]

I have no wish to get involved in a slanging match, it is just my opinion.

The QHI's get decent pay for what they do. A rate of inflation pay rise should be acceptable, if that is whats on offer.

The other departments probably have a case for a better deal.

And before you ask, I do have good knowledge of the rotary industry and military helicopter operations, training, cfs and dhfs.

That is all.

[Wizzard]

I have no connection with DHFS although I did interview a few years ago - I turned down their offer due to the poor salary - funnily enough!

Just one point, A rate of inflation salary rise these days will mean a gradual decline in lifestyle as the calculated rate does not include things such as Council Tax, school "add ons" - it costs on avarage £20 a week for things like schooltrips, sports kit etc - and increasing health costs - if you mil guys think the health service is free try having a toothache!

A fair rate for the job should be paid - not the R22 rate either!

Wiz

[SiClick]

It seems to me that market forces rule everything. Most of the QHI´s I know (myself included) have left to the airlines, or are working overseas for better salaries, terms and conditions.
If Shawbury do not pay enough to compete with the Airline / Offshore industry then they will have problems recruiting.

[332mistress]

Welcome to the real world outside of the light blue.

Once you leave the sevice then it is a free market and it is up to you to get the best pay and conditions package that you can, Forget about loyalty it doesn't exist. The employer will drop you as fast as he can if the contract is lost or a cheaper pilot comes along.

I now work in the oil industry and it is fascinating to see what some "contractors" charge for their services. If they are a specialist they charge the earth. It is not unknown for helicopters to be hired to remove contractors from the rig, as soon as their work is finished, as their pay is higher than the cost of hiring the helicopter.:ooh:

If you are in a job that requires a skill that not many possess then the pay you require should reflect that.

Remember the managers may think that they are the ones that earn the company the money but it is a myth. The managers strike and the flying gets done - the QHIs strike and ..................

Good luck from the bretheren up North:ok:

332M

[swerve]

quick point you may all be forgetting here - how much is the government paying FBH for each QHI verses how much are FBH paying their QHI's - Approx 50% is the figure!!!
FBH are paid 80K for each QHI - but pay less than 40K in wages
Work it out who's making the profit here - NOT the people asking for a decent pay packet - amen

[oldbeefer]

6Z3.

you mention "Military Ethos, committment, loyalty".

I refer you to another thread "Why are people leaving in droves" - where's the commitment and loyalty there?

[charliegolf]

Wizz

"£20 a week for school add-onns"

It's a 'kin expensive school!

CG

[airborne_artist]

how much is the government paying FBH for each QHI verses how much are FBH paying their QHI's - Approx 50% is the figure!!!

In which case FBH are not making much money. Out of their "profit" they have to pay 11% employer's NI, contrib to pension (prob 5%), recruit them (eg advertise, interview, select etc) pay sick leave, medical insurance and other benefits such as licence loss insurance, life insurance etc.

Rule of thumb in industry is that an employee costs 3 times salary - FBH are doing it for 2 times, so they must be making plenty of money somewhere else on the contract.

[happy69]

It would seem that the ground crew start thier strikes early in the new year and the aircrew will start a couple of weeks later (all to do with BALPA sending out ballot papers later than expected). Sounds like it could be a fun new year in shropshire!

[LFFC]

Rule of thumb in industry is that an employee costs 3 times salary Which is why it's wrong to immediately assume that civilians are cheaper than military personnel!

However, I do admit that military personnel were costly once ........ but that was when we had a decent secondary health service, a primary health service that catered for families too, properly managed married quarters, messing that was first class...... etc, etc,

[swerve]

Again you are missing the facts "airborne-artist" - FBH do NOT pay medical insurance, life insurance, or loss of licence etc and as for the pension it comes to the grant total of 1% so not quiet NORMAL employers which is the point the boys at Shawbury are trying to make - if FBH did treat them as respected employees the feeling might be reciprocated!!! FACTS speak for themselves

[aytoo]

swerve,

well made points.

I understand that the strike ballot papers are arriving at members addresses now, with a closing date of 11 Jan 06. Though by then, the groundcrew will already have had their first one-day strike. Sorry state of affairs altogether. Wonder how their airships will handle it? Perhaps we will see brass hats pushing cabs out and blunties operating the bowsers? Naaah! Why keep a dog and bark yourself?

[handysnaks]

Rule of thumb in industry is that an employee costs 3 times salary

Nah, I don't think so..........

[What Limits]

I think you will find that IIRC, normal industry standard costs of employment are 125% of salary whereas for pilots it is nearer 150%.

[vecvechookattack]

3 times the salary...?????

125 %...????

150 %....????


what ever the figure, its a shame these greedy people are not satisfied. They know where the door is.

[serf]

and how will you be voting aytoo?

[WASALOADIE]

Already voted, ballot paper on it's way back. Happy Christmas to all.

[serf]

surely no stick no vote!;)

[swerve]

Nice intelligent response from "vecvechookattack"! must be on the FBH management with such obvious comments, that's how they think.
Any way to the real issue - engineers on strike from tommorrow morning for one day initially, still very weak offers from the management to try and settle this issue. Pilots have been ballotted now results next week (11th) so maybe soon they will be joining the engineers to try and get the management to approach this in a realistic way and pay sensible wages to these people - they have had it in their favour for too long by all accounts - interesting times ahead, if only Alan Blake would wake up and smell the coffee!!

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Does this affect 84 Sqn (groundcrew) in Akrotiri as well?

[jayteeto]

Vecvechookattack, you fail to see one point, these people work for a civilian company, just like any other civilian company. Be it McDonalds, Burger King or FBH, they are not serving military personnel. If they want to strike, there are rules they must follow, but it is their RIGHT to be able to do so. They don't have to walk out the door. Democracy is fantastic, you are free to do things. Do not blame these people for taking jobs that the military WANTED to be civilian. If BALPA did not think that there was a legitimate case, I doubt that they would be involved. I learned a lot in my first few months out of the RAF, including a lot of civvie companies do not look after their people. I raised a valid grievance with an employer who denied a conversation had took place and if I didn't like it then I could 'poke off'. I get everything in writing now, guess what??? Recently they told us we would be getting a huge pay rise, even putting it in writing. They still ignored that and said 'we have changed our minds, so tough!!'.
There is zero loyalty out in the real world, why should these shawbury people work for below market rate??
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/shropshire/4583206.stm
http://www.shropshirestar.com/show_article.php?aID=40973

[BEagle]

As I've already mentioned, one hopes that the lessons from this industrial action will be hoisted on board by those pushing forward the Mercenary Flying Training Scam....

Intruiged to know where all the MFTS QFIs will come from, with airline recruiting gathering pace in the way it is already doing...

[abbacab]

why should these shawbury people work for below market rate??

Democracy is fantastic, you are free to do things.
They don't have to walk out the door
But if they did......FBH would have to respond with more favourable terms. Market forces apply equally to the employed and employer.

[aytoo]

Seems the replacement groundcrew coped quite well in the absence of the AMICUS members today - only one blade strike on one hangar door whilst moving aircraft with unaccustomed crews! Watch the skies for the ground incident signal - but don't hold your breath, will you?:(

[jayteeto]

Abbacab, I don't understand what you are trying to say. The original quote was that if they didn't like it then they could leave. I said that they shouldn't have to leave, they have the right to strike like anyone else. Why should they have to quit to get more favourable terms from FBH??

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Good on them. Having gone throught DHFS I know that most of these chaps are ex-RAF and wouldn't consider strike action lightly. When the MoD contractorised essential elements of the RAF they opened themselves up to these kinds of events. Maybe this will make them think twice before selling out what remains of the RAF.

[6Z3]

"I know that most of these chaps are ex-RAF and wouldn't consider strike action lightly."
Well you "know" wrong then. These people did the same old routine less than 5 years ago. Looks like you can almost plan on it - bit like the firemen eh?

[BEagle]

Sorry, Weasel me old, but one can't half feel some Schadenfreude about this whole thing....

....and the Mercenary Flying Training Scam will pose even bigger risks for future flying training, methinks.

The creeping cancer of contractorisation - a cut too far!

[[email protected]]

What about the poor FBH guys at Middle Wallop then - they already get less than the Shawbury guys and they live in a more expensive area - and I don't think they are going on strike.

[ShyTorque]

What about the poor FBH guys at Middle Wallop then - they already get less than the Shawbury guys and they live in a more expensive area - and I don't think they are going on strike.

What about them? They might do. When your job is contractorised, you can do so too, if you like. :hmm:

[[email protected]]

Ah yes a contract - isn't that when both parties agree to terms and conditions with the intention of honouring said terms and conditions. Have FBH honoured their part of the contract?

[aytoo]

Crab, I realise that this is a rumour network, but I think you should be sure of your facts before posting. There is a background in this case of the management deliberately splitting the negotiations along the old 'divide and conquer' principles. MW BALPA members were actually sent away from the collective bargaining table on a point of procedure, then settled on their present deal with the threat of redundancies hanging over them. Some of the MW brethren have grandfather rights from previous contracts, so the playing field is not level to start with. (btw I was offered, and declined, a job at MW with FBH, as they do not pay anywhere near enough to live in inflated Hampshire, imho).

[ProfessionalStudent]

I've had a lot to do with Shawditz over the years and was even on the staff at DHFS for a while. We, as military blokes, may not agree with them striking but at the end of the day, they are now being paid less than market rates to do their job (as FBH have welched on previous pay deals that have been negotiated).

Some have made the point that if they don't like it, they should leave and/or they knew the pay scales in the first place. When the contract was put in place 7 years ago, they were paid the going rate, but this has been eroded ever since. It is their right to strike and negotiate a fair pay deal; FBH were happy to call their bluff but it could all backfire if and when they do walk out (the aircrew that is - they won't be able to get stand-in QHIs). In civvy street, if you don't like it and you're part of a union and the union thinks you're right, then you can strike. If we didn't want a "union", we wouldn't be posting threads like this...
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=204672

In the short term, it could lead to a little heartache for those mil staff and students at Shawditz which will soon be forgotten...

In the long term, it may help shape the contracts being written for the future MFTS and perhaps (work with me here) be of benefit to the service. I mean , the MoD wouldn't be once bitten twice shy... would they?

[serf]

seems like they don't pay enough to live in shropshire either!

[Bertie Thruster]

I don't suppose the FBH employee payrises over the last 7 years kept pace with the annual inflation index in FBH's contract?

[OverTq]

Some have said the Strawberry guys are 'greedy people'. They earn around £39k at the moment. They are the only experienced QHIs on the Sqns (yes, I know that is mainly because of contractorisation, but that's not their fault). Whenever a stood has problems it's usually the civies who are asked to fly the remedial sorties. The military are on, what, £55k? Take away the x factor, and they are still paid more. But they move around, I here you say. There are Sqn Ldrs at Strawbs who have been there for donkey's years. Get over 60k a year and some will retire on over £30k. The civvies don't seem greedy to me!

[[email protected]]

aytoo - I never said the playing field was level and I am sure that FBH don't play fair (they are in business to make money) but all the QHIs were happy to take the deal when they signed the dotted line - many because it meant they didn't have to spend money getting ATPLs and the like.

OverTq - as I understand it there is a dearth of mil A2s at Strawberry because the military guys come off the QHI course and get sent back to the front-line asap and those that do stay don't stay for long so B1 flt cdrs are the norm instead of an exception as it was in pre DHFS days. So if all the experienced QHIs are civvy, it makes sense for struggling studes to fly with them. Why should you get paid more for flying with a duff student than a good one anyway?

[DET1]

In reply to 'they cant afford to live in Shropshire'. I have seen first hand the 'big boys tos club' that the ex mil pilots have become. It is laughable to suggest that these people cannot afford to live whereever they feel like. I may have a bit of sympathy for the support staff, however the pilots signed a deal, if they wanted more they should have gone elsewhere, the North Sea at night in the winter for example.

[Biggus]

First of all let me state that I have no first hand knowledge of the situation. However, as an outsider it seems to me quite simple. The ex mil pilots are working for a civillian company. They are now civillians and should be regarded as such, the fact that they are ex military is irrelevant! Unless there is a no strike clause in their contract they have every right under UK law to take industrial action after following certain procedures. While we in the miltary might not agree or approve of their actions, they are free to take them, and we in the military are paid to defend their 'right' to do so! They due not owe the military any loyalty by the mere fact they are 'ex-military'!

Terms and conditions change with time, probably faster in the civillian world, and conditions that seemed acceptable a few years ago may not seem so now. As to the idea that employees shouldn't break contracts, employers do on a regular basis. If the pilots in question have followed the proper industrial procedures for legal strike action then it is their right to do so!


As to how much they are paid, I don't know, and that too is irrelevant. Many people in many walks of life are overpaid for what they do, footballers, barristers, dare I say it airline pilots, and many underpaid, teachers, etc. If they price themselves out of the market by excessive wage demands then that is the way of a capitalist society.

Agree or disagree with the morals of their actions if you must, but from what I have read here it appears to me they have the 'right' to take the actions they are! Oh yes, I should add at this point that my political views are NOT left wing!!

I wait to be contradicted.........

[ShyTorque]

If £39K is still what these guys are earning they are behind the rest of the industry, ATPLs or not. I wouldn't even apply for the job for that (I made the decision not to, some years ago, even though I was qualified). Some of them might be gaining their ATPLs as we speak. If they leave en masse, then what? They are the most experienced instructors in their field and would be extremely difficult to replace, at least in the short term.

I really cannot see why Crab chooses to post this puerile "holier than thou" stuff such as he does. Was he given a difficult time going through DHFS himself as a student, one wonders? One day he might be looking for a civvie job away from his cosy little crew-room himself and he might just find himself somewhat regretting that he, in his own small way, opined that specialist ex-military pilots' salaries should be suppressed..... :rolleyes:

Look at the big picture Crab and get a life. :hmm:

[detgnome]

DHFS hadn't even been thought of when crab went through......

[ProfessionalStudent]

Biggus and Shy Torque

Couldn't agree more. Striking, as military mates, is anathema to us but we shouldn't sit in our ivory towers and criticise the FBH guys for taking industrial action.

We all have a value and if we feel we're not getting that value then we have a right to feel agrieved. Us military mates sit in the crewroom and visit PPrune and bitch about it - the lucky ones at Shawditz take industrial action.

[OverTq]

OverTq - as I understand it there is a dearth of mil A2s at Strawberry because the military guys come off the QHI course and get sent back to the front-line asap and those that do stay don't stay for long so B1 flt cdrs are the norm instead of an exception as it was in pre DHFS days. So if all the experienced QHIs are civvy, it makes sense for struggling studes to fly with them. Why should you get paid more for flying with a duff student than a good one anyway?

Don't want more for flying with a duff stood etc, just the same as the military are paid (minus that festering x factor), and the recognition for the experience levels (most of the civvies have in excess of 7000 hours).

[serf]

They could'nt leave en-masse, most are too long in the tooth to get any other employment, and have lived in the area for many years having been on the Shawbury circuit for ever prior to leaving!

[soddim]

That, Serf, is why companies get away with paltry rates of pay for staff that have been trained by the services and retired with a service pension.

If this action forces just one of these companies to pay the market rate then it is to be applauded.

Just wait until they have to train their own staff!

[[email protected]]

ShyTorque - I don't believe I have said in any of my 'puerile holier than thou' posts that the FBH QHIs shouldn't get a fair wage. As Biggus said, they are entitled to take strike action so that's what they are doing - if it is the only way they can get paid at an 'industry acceptable' level then so be it. But how many other jobs in commercial aviation are in such a protected environment instructing good quality (generally) students in a good quality and well maintained aircraft. Not even I can get lost in LFA 9 and there is no commercial pressure to fly when the wx is bad - the military make the weather decisions.

As for expecting parity with the military guys - OK - go on OOA detachments, serve on the front line, do all the crap secondary duties, do station duties. I believe Shawbury, for most mil guys (with a few exceptions) is a brief respite between front line duties.

For info Shy - I escaped the collapse of 2 FTS into DHFS after instructing at Strawberry for 4 years while quite a few of my mates jumped ship to join DHFS as civvies.
Quite happy with my life thanks.

[serf]

For once crab is saying something sensible

[swerve]

Getting close now to the results - BALPA ballot result out in the morning (Wednesday), Engineers cancelled their strike today, decided one day not enough to convince the management how serious they are - management got a little smug on the last one day strikes effectiveness - so 2 days next week followed by 3 days the week after if they still don't get treated seriously, and get towards a sensible offer. A good result from the Balpa members will help to focus the managements mind a little more on Wednesday - watch this space! From what I can pick up the sense of determination is solid from both unions - one day the management will realise this and think of a better way to solve this impass, rather than bury their head in the sand and not communicate with the workforce, hoping it will all go away. Bad press for the whole company really - not good for the future bidding wars.

[serf]

FBH, on their website, are advertising for staff at Shawbury, maybe they have taken the bull by the horns.

[aytoo]

Link to the technician vacancies here http://www.fbheliservices.com/FBH/Vacancy_Shaw_Tech.htm

Though surprisingly the 'latest news' on the FBH website appears to be this
http://www.fbheliservices.com/FBH/Skeeter2.htm

and absolutely no mention of any industrial relations nightmares anywhere!

BALPA strike ballot result expected sometime tomorrow, as swerve said. Got notified 'bout a meeting after work tomorrow, probably to discuss the result and plan the action ahead. Watch this space:eek:

[ShyTorque]

"As for expecting parity with the military guys - OK - go on OOA detachments, serve on the front line, do all the crap secondary duties, do station duties. I believe Shawbury, for most mil guys (with a few exceptions) is a brief respite between front line duties."

Don't forget that the QHIs at DHFS have already done their share.
I have, by various means, sneaked a look at some alternative payscales. If the quoted £39K is accurate, it is off the bottom of the scale of one well known N. Sea operator and roughly equivalent to the salary of a 1500 to 2000 hour co-pilot for the other. Any of these guys, suitably equipped with a shiny new ATPL/IR could be quickly employable as a captain.

One well-known onshore operator was paying £8k more for a brand new captain. Three years ago.

These DHFS guys are highly experienced and skilled pilots and it seems they aren't getting paid anywhere near the market rate. Some of them will walk.

That's business. It's got nothing to do with a perception of parity with military pilots.

[serf]

Well leave then and find another job!

[ShyTorque]

Well leave then and find another job!

No thanks, I'm OK where I am. :hmm:

[The Gorilla]

The result is out..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/shropshire/4601278.stm

94% of those who voted were in favour of a strike. My my,things must be bad down there!

:)

[Bertie Thruster]

According to that news report even the military instructors at Shawbury are only on £36k to £47k. As ShyTorque noted, that's not even a brand new onshore captains salary 3 years ago.

[charliegolf]

So after 111 posts, there really does seem to be a strike imminent. Finally.

CG

Who's gonna churn this year's 300 out now then?

CG

[A good headin]

Great Fantastic!
I live at Shawbury and we are so pleased the sods are going on strike, we might get a nights sleep now, bloody helicopters are like flies around a cow's bum!
Joking aside.
You had your chance to stay in the mob earning a military pay and you blew it for an easy life as a civvy with no OOA, secondary duties and mil crap. No doubt you are all reaping the benefits of a nice fat juicy pension?
Get back to work you lightweight tossers!

[swerve]

LOVE the quotes from "a good headin" above - forgot one basic point - Tosser- your profile shows you as a brit mil air trafficer!!! perhaps all those helicopters flying around due to your poor controlling - why do you live in Shawbury village next to an airfield? oh sorry forgot you are probably living in subsidised accommodation there paid for by the MOD, so can not possibly understand the cut and thrust of the real world, where normal people are paying real prices to live! enjoy your next posting (if your bad back,leg head etc can allow you to be posted) then one day I would love to welcome you to the real world.
Meanwhile good luck to the BALPA guys there who deserve a sensible pay rise for a unique job they do!
Fact - most ATC types are failed aircrew, wanabe pilots!!! Most pilots could with training be airtrafficers, most airtrafficers could be_ _ _ _ airtrafficers - nuf baiting:yuk:

[Spot 4]

"Get back to work you lightweight tossers!"

Have to agree with that comment. Geographical stability is worth £5k pa IMHO along with the prospect of living in one house in a desirable location (as opposed to Aberdeen); able to make long term plans that PMA have no input to, and having little or no secondary duties along with a 'part time' work schedule in which many of you disappear long before 5 pm.

DHFS civvies do not work in a commercial environment where an employer extracts the last drop of blood for their pounds£ They live a privileged lifestyle of military ethos (ish) without the nausea bits and with a pension on top.

The BALPA woman on BBC TV this evening made my blood boil demanding that you get parity to military crews, you forfeited that right (as I did) the day you handed in your F1250 or RN / Army service equivalent.

...and at this time of year when none of the military guys have any leave left your absence for a day or two will be un-noticed. Middle August may have been different but I hope that this leads to the cancellation of MFTS and military plc being reinstated at DHFS. If the outside world is so rosey, will the last one out switch the lights off.

[handysnaks]

According to that news report even the military instructors at Shawbury are only on £36k to £47k. As ShyTorque noted, that's not even a brand new onshore captains salary 3 years ago.

Now Bertie, the top half of that bracket is a dream for most brand new onshore captains now, let alone 3 years ago (as you well know you stirrer):E

[ShyTorque]

Not for pilots with the experience that these people have and there is a shortage of experienced onshore captains (watch out for another operator soon to advertise for more pilots). Most of these chaps could be earning a lot more money within a year.

If they DO decide to move on, as some small minded posters here suggest, who will replace them?

757 pilots? I doubt that one as they would take a salary CUT. Or some of those pontificating from inside the military?

[Bertie Thruster]

Forget the stirring handy;I'm for a spot of shaking!

Good luck to the Shawbury Strikers!

[serf]

Shy Tq, you talk nonsense. Try getting an onshore job at the salary you mention, go and ask PAS, BAS etc what they get paid.

As for offshore, you have NO chance of starting as a captain, no matter how good you think you are, it is all done on seniority, adhered to rigidly.

I know plenty of people, most of them probably at Shawbury who would who would take a job there, because it is so cushy.

[demobcurious]

I hope that the strike is successful, high profile and politically embarrassing.

Because that's the only way to prove that 'outsourcing' and 'PFI's and all the other phrases that mean cutting costs or standards do not work in an environment when you have to rely on your personnel being more than an average workforce.

[ShyTorque]

Serf,

Check your facts before you begin casting aspersions. You seem to be under a misunderstanding of your own making.

Firstly, as you keep referring to me personally, I should point out that I don't work at DHFS; you seem to have added two and two together and come up with five. If you read earlier posts properly you might have spotted that.

Secondly, since leaving the military well over a decade ago, I have never worked there. I WAS a QHI at Shawbury twenty years ago so I do know what the level of effort is. I possibly could have obtained employment at DHFS after becoming a civvie, I looked at the opportunity but chose to go elsewhere.

My facts are correct. Obviously, I know what I earn (more than I would at DHFS) and I also have the BALPA payscales in writing. There are more employers in UK than PAS - I know full well how much they pay (obviously so do you, as you fly a 902, even though you have just changed your profile) but that's not who I referred to. The figure of "£8k more" for an onshore captain I mentioned is a figure quoted on a letter signed by a company chief pilot.

[serf]

think you've got the wrong man me old, i'm still in the mob!

[ShyTorque]

Fair enough, so we have the truth. But now note I'm not at DHFS.

So, speaking from inside - what do YOU know about civilian helicopter pilots salaries that makes you qualified to speak with any authority? :hmm:

[serf]

I dont believe I ever said that YOU worked at Shawbury, so get off your high horse.

I also know shawbury quite well, although I dont work there either.

[ShyTorque]

Well leave then and find another job!

So, directly after my post what else did that refer to?

"Try getting an onshore job at the salary you mention, go and ask PAS, BAS etc what they get paid. As for offshore, you have NO chance of starting as a captain, no matter how good you think you are, it is all done on seniority, adhered to rigidly."

Or that?

But you didn't answer the question.

[serf]

Seems like all they are after is parity with the military QHI's doing the same job, according to the BALPA spokesman on the BBC website.

[airborne_artist]

Seems like all they are after is parity with the military QHI's doing the same job, according to the BALPA spokesman on the BBC website.

Which is interesting - because serving QHIs can be posted at no notice anywhere Tony is engaging in expeditionary warfare, whereas the civvy QHIs probably have a contract that say they are employed at Strawbs, or elsewhere in the UK at xx weeks notice.

Guess they could go for QHI pay less the X-factor.

[Spot 4]

"Seems like all they are after is parity with the military QHI's doing the same job, according to the BALPA spokesman on the BBC website."

Then they should take 'Full Time Reserve' Commisions, and risk putting themselves in the line of fire for President Tony and completing Ord Off, SDO, Guard Cdr, Secondary Duties etc etc with immediate effect. They are asking for parity with Spec Aircrew rather than a typical Flt Lt QHI (sweating on the PA spine), which they were never guaranteed had they remained in service.

ShyT, there are at least 2 Nigels who returned to Shy from the BA front line. One ex-A320 and one ex CRJ. For both it was time with family and quality of life that 'encouraged' their decision. You see there is more to life than money. In the case of the A320 chap, BA moving A320 from BHX to LHR and the associated nause of travelling at god forsaken hours meant that the salary drop was worth it. CRJ mate returned to uniform, albeit not the one he left! Jetset does not suit everybody all of the time.

[WASALOADIE]

"Then they should take 'Full Time Reserve' Commisions, and risk putting themselves in the line of fire for President Tony and completing Ord Off, SDO, Guard Cdr, Secondary Duties etc etc with immediate effect. They are asking for parity with Spec Aircrew rather than a typical Flt Lt QHI (sweating on the PA spine), which they were never guaranteed had they remained in service."

Or they could stay at Shawbury as civvies with no private medical or dental cover, only 6 days a year sick before they go onto Stat Sick Pay, limited or no job security, 24 days holiday, no home to duty. Giving continuity to the students whilst the military guys are, doing a variety of meaningless duties, away on det, SDO's, Duty NCO's, expeds, force development, 6 weeks leave, re-engagement leave, comp leave, other ad-hoc self improvement government paid-for courses, sports events, off sick on full pay, unfit flying/off with sporting injuries etc, etc, etc.

[serf]

Which you have also had the benefit off in the past, and could still have if you were still serving.

[A good headin]

Shawbury Civvy Rotary pilots are members of BALPA?

Oh grief!

Doesn't BALPA stand for British AIRLINE Pilots Association?
How the fook does someone who flies a mil rotary hydraulic palm tree around the Shropshire skies get access to an airline pilots association? Is that why they want airline pilots wages?

I am most intrigued.

[DET1]

Maybe old Ronnie Reagan had an idea after all. Sack them all and then reemploy the ones who want to work for the contract they signed. Some sympathy but not a lot. PS if some of the company employees dont want to strike then leave them the fcuk alone.

[fireflash]

Good Headin

Since when does an airline have to fly commercial jets? Rotary pilots hold
ATPLH - Airline Transport Pilot License Helicopter.

Not like sim drivers at CATCS :rolleyes:

[Spot 4]

"Rotary pilots hold ATPLH - Airline Transport Pilot License Helicopter."

FBH QHIs do not hold ATPLH for their job, in fact I believe that even a CPL is not required.

[southside]

Seems like all they are after is parity with the military QHI's doing the same job

If they did the same job as the Mil beefers they would be entitled to the same pay but seeing as they don't they can bugger off.

[swerve]

Interesting again that the SERIOUSLY deranged "a good hedin" is firing from the hip - is it your life ambition to just irritate people by all you say and do - can't you just stick to doing that in your day time job as an airtrafficer.
Mighty funny you go on about ATPL and BALPA etc when you as a self confesed airtraficer are viewing and passing comment on a military AIRCREW forum - do us all a favour and irritate someone else who might be remotley interested in your bleeting.

[Blodwyn Pig]

swerve i refer you to the top of the page, its not just an aircrew forum.

"Military Aircrew A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here."

[Whirlygig]

FBH QHIs do not hold ATPLH for their job, in fact I believe that even a CPL is not required.

Sorry. Can't believe that. There can only be a few PPL(H) holders now in the country who are still qualified to instruct; everyone else, in the JAA regime, has to have CPL(H).

It well may be a fact that you believe, but that does not mean to say it was a fact!

Cheers

Whirls

Edited to add that (apparently!) I made the invalid assumption that some of the instructors may have been civilian trained!?

[Kim Il Jong]

Whirlygig,

Start Believing. It's a fact that civvy QHIs at Shawbury do not require an ATPLH. The Aircraft are on the Military register: different rules.

Undecided on this one, not sure that they should get same as a Mil QHI cos they don't do the same job.

They all left the military so that they could have their cushy stay in the same place with no dets job, so they simply don't deserve it. (Mind you a lot of the old codgers there were stuck in their little cosy rut for years before they jumped ship anyway)

On the other hand, I say that they deserve a fair wage for what they actually do, and if that means a strike then go for it! Have more respect for the engineers to be fair, from the bit i've seen, serviceability is awesome and engineers are hard to come by.

[aytoo]

No, they do not expect PARITY with the mil QHIs. Not even parity less X-factor (you know the bit that covers OOA deployments, getting in harms way, etc). Just a realistic narrowing of the huge gap that has opened between them and their mil counterparts over the last few years, and a salary that accurately represents their experience level and contribution to the flying training pipeline.

Unfortunately, there is not a directly comparable group of ex-mil QHIs with current flying medical cats anywhere else in UK, so any attempts at comparisons are bound to fail. I heard such attempts described as comparing apples with oranges - a fair statement.

Those still in and slagging off the BALPA members should realise that they just may be in the same situation after their time in the service of HM - glass houses, stones, etc.:)

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Not UK, but if you'd like an apples and oranges comparison there's a job going out here in the ME with precisely the same requirements (no licence required, but mil QHI experience and the ability to pass a medical cat) that pays a double-percentage figure more than the Shawbury fellas are getting. That's before our friend Gordon gets his mitts on his share of their pay - no taxman here. If any of our Shawbury friends - or anyone else that's qualified - is interested you probably know who to contact.

Huge amount of sour grapes being flung around in here.

- BALPA membership? Why not - you can even join (although without the full membership benefits) while you're in the mob. It's the only organisation in the UK that effectively protects professional pilots, so who else should the Shawbury instructors pick to look after them?

- Licences - who needs 'em, so long as there is a Govt approved standards scheme in place to ensure quality of service. Which I suspect is at least as good if not better than that in place at most CAA-inspected establishments.

- Parity with mil QHIs? Haven't heard this from the pilots themselves, only from correspondents to this thread and (presumably - I can't access it here) the BBC report. I have my doubts as to whether this is what is being requested, for the same reasons as have (sometimes eloquently, often not..) been expressed here.

Having taught at Shawbury in the early 80s I've a fair idea of what the job entails, and I've also been back to visit old friends since leaving the forces. OK, so they're getting more currently than company-employed Police/EMS pilots but they're nowhere near what a direct employed Emergency Services aviator is earning. Good luck to them - if people think the employer can open a new box of instructors (as the Americans did with their ATC'ers) they might have a nasty shock in store.

[Hummingfrog]

What many of the critics of the possible strike action forget is that we work in a capitalist society. It is up to me as a "worker" to get as much for my services as I can to support my family. It is up to the employer to get my services for as little as pay as possible.

A skill will produce a pay rate commensurate with that skill. If there are lots with the skill then pay will be low etc. It doesn't matter that people have pensions or a stable lifestyle there is still a rate for the job. PFI contracts tend to be awarded to the lowest bidder who is the lowest because he pays the lowest wages, as fixed costs are the same for all bidders.

In the past ex-service pilots have been willing to work for less because they want stability but this is changing as they realise their true worth to the company. We have very successfully driven up our wages in the N Sea by being aware of our true value and demanding to be paid as such. There is no box of experienced pilots to replace us and I would presume this is the case at Shawbury

If you think you are worth more then stick to your guns, especially if there is nobody to replace you. Managers may think it is they who earn their company the money but we know different:ok:

HF

[A good headin]

Interesting again that the SERIOUSLY deranged "a good hedin" is firing from the hip - is it your life ambition to just irritate people by all you say and do - can't you just stick to doing that in your day time job as an airtrafficer.
Mighty funny you go on about ATPL and BALPA etc when you as a self confesed airtraficer are viewing and passing comment on a military AIRCREW forum - do us all a favour and irritate someone else who might be remotley interested in your bleeting.

Intriguing.

Do I detect that Swerve does not like Air Tragic? Has he had a bad experience? Did he not get a good headin from one of our lovely ladies?
Maybe he only has a small chopper? :ooh:

As for comments about MILITARY air traffickers playing on the MILITARY aircrew page I think it's better than being a bitter and twisted Civvy pilot bleating about how much money they should get paid! Maybe you should take your CIVILIAN bleatings over to the Airline pilots pages, after all you did leave the Military? Somehow I don't think they would be interested either!

Finally, you also said Fact - most ATC types are failed aircrew

What utter crap.

I have served on the ATC School for 6 years and in that time we have had ZERO chopped fast jet/multi eng reject aircrew come thru'. We have had 6 RN and 3 RAF chopped rotary. Of those RN studes 4 have failed and are now driving boats as Warfare Officers, 2 RAF failed and are now working in Admin and 1 is still in training at CATCS. The only Wings you will see in ATC these days is on the Duty Pilot!

So, as for me firing from the hip, maybe. At least at don't talk b*ll*cks!

[serf]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/shropshire/4601278.stm

[swerve]

The Turkey strikes again - "a good headin" - managed to strike a bit of a nerve then, truth hurts. But must put you right on one fact in your little insular world down there, who ever said I was not in the Military still - only you decided I was a bleating civie - even the still in's can have an opinion, even a balanced one!!! and suport a sensible campain, which you are obviously intent on trying to rubbish at any oportunity. Bit of advice - stick to what you can do, and I will stick to what I know about, then we can all have some peace - remember ATC are there to serve the aircrew, we know it hurts at times but that's how the pecking order is.
Good luck to the BALPA lads at Shawbury, just hope that one day when the long overdue posting to a real world airtrafficer does get prised out of his little hole he doesn't get a job with the CAA, cause he sounds perfect for their world. Love him!!!!:

[A good headin]

Swerve,

Thanks for your PM calling me a tit, guess you would know all about them.

Have a nice weekend my friend.

[ShyTorque]

" ShyT, there are at least 2 Nigels who returned to Shy from the BA front line. One ex-A320 and one ex CRJ. For both it was time with family and quality of life that 'encouraged' their decision. You see there is more to life than money. In the case of the A320 chap, BA moving A320 from BHX to LHR and the associated nause of travelling at god forsaken hours meant that the salary drop was worth it. CRJ mate returned to uniform, albeit not the one he left! Jetset does not suit everybody all of the time.[/QUOTE]

I left the military for the same reasons. I was fortunate enough to gain immediate rotary employment overseas at a much higher salary. When I decided to return to UK I took a (very) large drop in salary but it was quality of life that counted. I still earn considerably more than these chaps, despite some of them being better QHIs than I ever was or could be. BTW, The BALPA salary figures I mentioned are for rotary pilots; they are nothing to do with the airlines.

Some folk on this site need to take of their military blinkers and look outside the frame a little. By trying to devalue the work that these chaps do, they also belittle themselves. The implication that these highly experienced pilots might be incapable of obtaining a CAA licence and doing another job for more return is ridiculous.

I ask the question again: If these chaps leave DHFS, (and some of them will) WHO is going to replace them?

[southside]

Merlin beefers will replace them.

[Uncle Ginsters]

From BBC article: Balpa said current salary levels, between £29,000 and £40,000 a year, are around £7,000 less than RAF pilot trainers who are doing the same job.
The same primary role maybe, but what about the other duties?
Is that the price of secondary duties these days?!?
A sad state of affairs, but has been coming for a while with the current contract arrangements, methinks.
:D
Uncle G

[Correction:- If all duties are equal, then I sit humbly corrected, and have every sympathy for the Civvie QHIs. But that's the cost of contractualisation - to be cheaper, something has to give; servicing, wages, management positions. Which is the obvious option there?)

[jayteeto]

I could be wrong, but don't civvie QHIs have secondary duties on the squadrons??

[Kim Il Jong]

Jayteeto'
Yeah, OIC 'first one out the main gate's a loser' club.:}

[Kim Il Jong]

DOH!! I meant Last one out the...
:O

[OverTq]

Secondary Duties? Yes, most do. Most fairly mundane, but all time consuming. The provision of the dozens of fields and clearings (and the annual bash for their owners) all organised bt a civvy.

[jayteeto]

Kim, you confused the serving motto with the non serving motto!! Fast change though, you must be a FJ pilot.....

[EESDL]

Must remember if I ever have to accept a job offer to ensure to strike if I'm not getting paid as much as work colleagues who actually work for a different employer.
Must also remember to feign surprise and total ignorance after I've accepted the job.

[aytoo]

EESDL, an unworthy response. Some of the chaps concerned have been there 8 years, and much can change in that time. The guys have a genuine beef - did you know that the dispute hinges around last years pay settlement, due in April '05? The company seemingly bid low to get the contract in '97, but are still trousering wads of cash in various parts of the group whilst pleading poverty to their workforce. Standard business techniques obviously, but why slag off the pilots for wanting a reasonable rate for the job they do? Do you not seek the same from your employer, whether it be HMG or the commercial sector?

[Tiger_mate]

Do you not seek the same from your employer, whether it be HMG or the commercial sector?
No; we took the shilling and do the time, whilst hoping that the payrises are appropriate with inflation. I can remember wives and children walking up Downing Street, because we cannot (circa 1978.), however MOD pay is not the subject of this discussion.

My options are: 1) Live with it, 2) Leave. Nobody is irreplaceable, and to think otherwise is an over inflated ego.

FWIW I agree with a previous post that geographical and family stability has a value that should not be discounted, ask anybody on an enforced *unaccompanied tour. I also agree that to offer peanuts; because a previously earned pension is in place is not cricket, but then nobody had to accept that one in the first place.

*Before anyone mentions OOA pay and SEPAL, that will never be enough to replace ones "LIFE"

[handysnaks]

It's ironic really. All these serving military personnel who don't like the idea of people striking for better T&C have joined the Forces in order to protect this country, its people and their hard won rights. Well, one of the hard won rights is the right to strike for better T&C. So thanks and keep up the good work:ok:

[N Arslow]

Let's not forget that pay deals for the military are not made in isolation to the outside world. Retention bonuses, pay rises and flying pay are awarded as a direct result of the competition generated by employers outside the military, in part vying for the military trained pilot. It is a circle - pay the civilian more , the military will play catch up a while later. Then outside need to find a way to encourage the ex-military again. That circle is, of course, only part of the story. Employers who give minimal raises over a period of years are going to lose their people or have a strike on their hands. Either way, the playing field will never be level for all, but in a constant state of flux. Please - no point in sniping at each other, unless some of these posters are not the pilots they purport to be...

[EESDL]

aytoo,
you are right...I do not know the full facts as this is only a rumour network.
Question still remains.......
Why on earth would you continue working for an employer who obviously holds you in such low regard?
We are our own worst enemy.
It's an embarassing situation for everyone.
From what I recall when DHFS was formed, pay parity was never on the cards from the start - so why do they think that it should be now? If that's what your contract says, then fine, go get them folks.........I just hope that there's some of my BALPA funds left to fight my case if ever required.
Ex-mil pilot naivity strikes again me thinks.

[Spot 4]

aytoo,

From what I recall when DHFS was formed, pay parity was never on the cards from the start - so why do they think that it should be now? .
Parity may not have been on the cards, but a redundancy package of £100k +- and an immediate pension was, and many were quite pleased at taking rank tabs off and laughing all the way to the bank, in between doing the very same job as when in the mob.

Whose turn is it to gloat now; I so hope that the military boys and girls get 5% this year.

[Biggus]

EESDL

'Why on earth would you continue working for an employer who obviously holds you in such low regard?'

Well I, and I expect many other still serving contributors to pprune, do exactly that - by continuing to work for the RAF, MoD, HMG, Mr T Blair, etc..... Although more and more of us are voting with our feet each year.

I now await with interest replies from southside and vec vec vec whatever his name is to tell us how much the RN values its chaps and chapesses!

[EESDL]

Biggus
Voted with my feet last year.
Don't get me wrong, I think we are all still allowed to strike, in whatever form (sickies etc).
Just do not think that it will change anything as contractors like to make money!
Will be interesting to see if the contractor bids again when the time is up.
Like SASless says, more money the better but I find it embarrassing that pilots are now striking after signing up fo a job knowing full-well the T&Cs at the time.
If the contractor has subsequently changed those T&Cs, then fair enough, go get 'em!!

[Saint Evil]

So what is the latest? Had heard the engineers were on strike but the aircrew had chosen not to.

Is there any latest gossip? Does MFTS suddenly have to wake up and smell the ballot papers?

[WASALOADIE]

Groundcrew have settled, Aircrew still in negotiations

[[email protected]]

Narslow - the only reason the military got increases in flying pay and cash handouts in FRIs was because people were voting with their feet and leaving the military for better paid jobs in civvystrasse. If the FBS guys start taking jobs elsewhere then the rates of pay might improve - but somehow I don't think many will. Supply and demand. When DHFS was formed the terms and conditions looked very rosy compared to staying in - 10 years on the balance has changed.

[aytoo]

Aircrew were briefed on Friday that there is a new offer coming from the company which the chaps will be asked to vote on sometime in the very near future. If they vote to accept, that's it. If not, there is still a 94% vote in favour of strike action to fall back on.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Does anyone know if this proposed strike is the reason for four of Shawbury's Griffins turning up at a noisey place in Hampshire today?

[[email protected]]

THS - the griffin det is a regular one at the end of the 60 Sqn course for tactical flying.

[jayteeto]

http://www.shropshirestar.com/show_article.php?aID=41605
Things might have improved!!