RAF Hercules was shot down - Reid

[AlanM]

John Reid admits that the RAF C130 that came down in January was shot down.

BBC Website (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4510324.stm)

[TOPBUNKER]

Links for the Accident Report and Announcement...

http://www.mod.uk/publications/boi.htm




Are we now going to get a diatribe from BEAGLE I wonder?

[lasernigel]

Would the fitting of nitrogen 'inerting systems' to replace the air in empty tanks really help against a missile??
I can see the point on say 747's post the TWA accident investigation,but a missile hitting an aircraft is a totally different scenario.

[GreenWings]

Lasernigel:

It might not, but the report does not say it was brought down by a missile, in fact the type of SAFIRE (Surface to Air Fire) has not been revealed. Self sealing tanks and inert gas to prevent explosion/fire may help for AAA rounds, which is what is reported in the press today as being responsible for bringing the ac down.

The Sun (I know, its the Sun, therefore it must be true) mentions a DShK .5 cal MG, and other rags refer to 'machine gun fire'. The report, IIRC, refers to a combination of ground fire.

GW

[hobie]

If you fly low you are in danger from conventional Arms ..... fly high and you face sophisticated Missile threats (missile-protection systems accepted) .....

I can't see a solution to this dilemma :confused:

ps. Beagle ..... re 'Diatribe' ..... you sure wouldn't want to be sensitive would you:{

[ARINC]

Would the fitting of nitrogen 'inerting systems' to replace the air in empty tanks really help against a missile??

This is standard on the Tornado fin tank on TTW. We did it in Saudi, removed the 1 shot Bat and fit a Nitrogen bottle. We were always told it was to mitigate against small arms fire.

[BEagle]

RIP

[kokpit]

Does this mean we may reconsider the foamed tanks that I believe our colonial friends have ?

[gijoe]

A lack of 'robust' intelligence contributed says Mr Reid.

Robust - an overused and meaningless word methinks used too much in military reporting circles.

Discuss

[Safeware]

ARINC,removed the 1 shot Bat and fit a Nitrogen bottle

Intriguing - remove one emergency system in order to fit a system to deal with a different 'emergency' - I don't think so.

sw

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

I hope Guiness & Mince Pies tonight is a good "final farewell" to a top bunch of blokes.

More flowers by the main gate tonight made a grown man cry (again).

The herc is a great steed for operational sorties, and I hope budgets don't stop the recommendations of the board being implemented.

[AlanM]

P-T-G

Well said mate

[propulike]

I can't remember a BOI that had to try and gather evidence in such difficult circumstances. The report itself; honest, impartial and totally sobering. I have no doubt that if that crew believed that profile was the safest for that sortie then it was. But you can’t be 100% safe on Op’s, they knew it and they went anyway like we all do.

Well done to the Board.

God Bless boys.

[ARINC]

Intriguing - remove one emergency system in order to fit a system to deal with a different 'emergency' - I don't think so.

Dear Safeware....

A couple of questions for you.

1. Where is the one shot battery exactly ?
2. Why is it fitted ?
3. Where is the Nitrogen bottle fitted ?
4. How long does it take to do this job ?
5. Have you ever worked on a Tornado ?
6. Are you a teenage oik ?

If you can demonstrate some real knowledge I might take your comment more seriously.

I spent 5 years as an electrician on F2's and GR1's. believe me when I say we removed the OSB and fitted a Nitrogen bottle.

RIP the good guys.......

[higthepig]

Propulike I agree totally, gents RIP.

[mary_hinge]

I recall on the GR1 around 1983, the one-shot was above the RH taileron/ base of stab. In addition they carried around a partially installed nitrogen inertion system that, if fully installed, would have provided some protection to the vertical stabilizer. Lack of space prevented the full install.

Back though to the thread in hand: Kokpit you are correct, but it is further than be reconsidered!

Again, RIP

[Safeware]

ARINC, at the risk of thread creep and diversion from the memory of those who died serving their country,

1. Where is the one shot battery exactly ? At the base of the fin, or post mod, the LH SPS bay
2. Why is it fitted ? Unlike the F3 with its RAT, the OSB is the GR1 emergency power system
3. Where is the Nitrogen bottle fitted ? See 1
4. How long does it take to do this job ? Can't remember
5. Have you ever worked on a Tornado ? Yes, F3 and GR1, 4 yrs in the mid nineties
6. Are you a teenage oik ? No :)

While the fin inert system on both aircraft was a b*gger, would you fly with the OSB removed? The location of the battery was moved - maybe we are talking either side of the Mod?

sw

edited for accuracy

[Navaleye]

I 'm with BEagle. RIP. Our thoughts are with you.

[oldfella]

RIP guys.

My thoughts are with the families at this time. I hope the BOI results bring some form of help as we approach Christmas.

Let's try to prevent this thread going off-subject.

[wiggy]

First of all condolences to the families of those involved

Secondly, does this loss not yet again highlight the futility of the RAFs blind insistence that low flying is the answer to all threats, ? and yet again show outmoded Uk thinking?

In the late 60's early 70's the USAF/USN and Marine Corps learned that flying low level over a "small arms rich environment" was not a good thing to do - they pushed up to higher altitudes and paid the price (literally) in needing improved ECM...and ultimately Stealth.

In the late 80's whilst I was at TLP we were presented with the joys of JP233....and as one of our USAF colleagues opined, " so you think you are going to fly down a Warpack airfield runway in daylight and get away with this"...........? Sadly one of the guys presenting did exactly this in Gulf one and didn't get away with this..........

So, where does the RAF go from here? Move away form the Dam Busters mentality that low level is the be all and end all answer to everything or step back and really review it's tactics?

Standing by to be flamed.........................

[glum]

Considering the platform, it's capabilities, and it's mission, what CAN be done?

A Herc can't run away quickly, is too big to be stealthy, and can't carry out most of it's ops from high altitude.

What's left?

[c130airman]

The use of foam filled tanks could have helped. Flying low with flight deck armour is false security as the biggest target is a fuel filled alley wing!!
Why no foam??? Cost??
All the USAF SF aircraft have it fitted, even the choppers!!
(They have even found rounds in the tanks when later servicing them)

I did raise the subject when I served with 'Them'.

All so silly and such a waste as many of us always said fuel tanks where a massive risk!!

Might not have been small / medium arms fire and could have been a missile in which case your f***ed!

[4Greens]

Maybe better threat assessment. Routes that have the most probability of small arms fire - fly high, missiles- fly low.

Would expect small arms a greater threat in Iraq.

[speeddial]

May the crew RIP.


The Sun's report on it today was sickening.

[RileyDove]

There is a balance to be made. Certainly in Vietnam transport aircraft were lost due to small arms fire taking out the pilot and the Huey crews used body armour. Without wishing to turn the thing into an armoured bathtub there must be a need for some kind of personnal protection to pilots operating at low altitude.
As regards higher levels - in the case of the Vietnam war the U.S aircraft were operating against a sophisticated air defence network with the ability to fix damage sustained quite quickly.
Over Iraq however I guess the problem is MANPADS and AAA fire
which to some degree altitude cannot stop but can allow thinking time in which to react. The sad thing is that it's war zone and no matter what reports are done into it - it won't bring back the crew or indeed get rid of the chances of it happening again.

[airsound]

I’m surprised to find myself saying this, but I do believe that the RAF and the MoD are to be congratulated on their handling of this very sensitive BoI. I have studied the published Findings, and both organisations seem to have made sterling efforts to publish everything they possibly could, apparently only censoring stuff that is genuinely operationally sensitive. Of course, in a free democracy, we should expect nothing less. But I have to say that their openness came as a welcome surprise to this ancient, and occasionally jaundiced, aviation observer.

I didn’t know any of the people involved, but I almost feel as if I do because I have been involved on the periphery since they died in January. Indeed, at the memorial flypast at RIAT, I was privileged to have been able to quote the very moving words of OC Lyneham. What does seem clear is that they were truly a top bunch - and I believe that the openness displayed by their Service does them and the Service nothing but credit.

We are surely all blessed to have served alongside, or been served by, such outstanding people.

[ARINC]

I understand one of the crew was decorated posthumously too, for a previous mission.

Note to :Safeware

Without wshing to divert from this thread, An apology, My experience is not as current as yours. I had no knowledge of a Mod to the OSB.

[southside]

A question for the C130, chinook guys - When you are flying through the SA threat band do you employ the "Wells Manoeuvre"?

[Roguedent]

Not a C130 or a Chinook guy. Never heard of the 'Wells Manoeuvre', but I guess as a slow mover (initially) we have SOP's for the SA band to minimise the timespent there.

RIP Guys, you will be missed..:(

[oldfella]

Never heard of the Wells maoeuvre but you are unlikely to get discussion on present tactics on an open forum.

[Captain Gadget]

Dear all

Long since 'departed the fix', but I knew several of the crew and I wish them all that they would have wished themselves in their long sleep - and the very best to those they left behind.

No words of mine could possibly do them justice.

Nili nomen roboris omen

May your God bless you, keep you and give you peace.

Gadget :ok:

[Bob Viking]

BEAD WINDOW DUMB-ASS.
I don't think we really need to discuss anything of the kind on an open forum do we!
BV:*

[southside]

For those of you who want to know what BEADWINDOW (http://www.tpub.com/content/istts/14226/css/14226_45.htm) means.


However, if you want to learn more about how to fly your aircraft when operating inside a SA threat band you will be able to find all the tactics you need here (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/44-8/ch5.htm)

[Bob Viking]

I see Vecvec had the sense to remove his post. Are you two related/the same person. You are both equally irritating at times!
BV:E

[Training Risky]

That's being polite.

At best, Southside and VecVecthingy are a couple of walter mitty types (or maybe one sad spotter using 2 usernames from the comfort of his bedroom...)

At worst, a very irresponsible SAC/rating who has twocked some SOPs or FRCs from his bosses' desk.

:rolleyes:

[vecvechookattack]

twocked?

whats that mean?

[Training Risky]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Twocked

Everything that an oxygen thief needs to know about modern diction...