Terms of address?

[Descend to What Height?!?]

Silly question.
I thought I knew the answer to this, but..........

One of our junior officers asked how she should address a female MACR?
For a male, it would be Warrant Officer or Mr Smith, if she knew his name.
However, appart from the formal Warrant Officer, is there an equivelent to Mr Smith for female MACR or Warrant Officers for that matter? Miss Smith, Mrs Smith or Ms Smith????

:confused:

[southside]

Easy -

If it moves, salute it and call it "Sir".

If it doesn't move, Paint it !


In all seriousness, how about finding out her first name and calling her by her first name ?

[JNo]

I wouldn't dive in with the first name term just yet, keep it formal and you can always "de-formalise" (may have just created a word there - more likely a new spelling anyway) later. "Ms/Mrs Smith" and or "MACR Smith".

[tablet_eraser]

I'd be very wary of leaping in with a first-name approach with a MACR or WO. How about asking her how she'd prefer to be addressed? Just pray she doesn't reply "Ma'am"!!!

[Tigs2]

I relly dont think its respectful to call a warrant officer by their first name. Just a personal view. Interested to see if anyones got the answer to the question.

[Wyler]

No first names. Ask her how she would like to be addressed.

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Have you ever been in the Armed Forces, Southside?
Didn't think so.


Introduce yourself: "Hello, I am Air Marshall Sir Hugh G Rection*, how would you like me and my subordinate officers to address you?"
*Insert own details here.

She will say "Mrs/Miss* Swollocks, Sir, but my name is Betty".
*Delete as applicable.

"Good Mrs Swollocks. Get your knickers on and make me a cup of tea. Now."



Job done. Formal and informal terms of address known. Sorted.

[FFP]

I don't think there is anything wrong with first names between a JO and WO / MACR, depending on the situation.

Now the SWO on the other hand . .. . .


Just my thoughts . . . . . . . . ..

[Safeware]

Many moons ago was given a sound piece of advice by my then Wg Cdr:

If you ever think of calling a WO by his first name, take the rest of the day off and think about it. He has climbed to the top of his pile, you are at the bottom of yours, he deserves your respect for that.

Always worked for me, even when I was at a Stn with a female SWO.

To sort out the feeling of discomfort, why not establish between them what to do?

sw

[BEagle]

"Wench!"

:p


Of course in the a/c it's easier "Eng" or "Loadie" etc. Or, around the sqn, by 'handle' if you must stoop to such Top Gun-isms.

It'd be interesting to know the correct answer, personally I think that "Ma'am Smith" might be rather better than "Mrs Smith" or the wretched bra-burners' style "Mizz Smith"?

[Wyler]

FFP

That is why Warrant Officers hate JO's. They don't think.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Ma'am Smith would seem to be appropriate, until told otherwise! Certainly more in a military stylee than mzzz smith.

As for no first names, depends on the situation... am on first name terms as a JO with a couple of WOs, and haven't had my head removed yet! Although all comments about the SWO absolutely true... what do you do when the station can't afford a SWO and settles for a F/S?

[southside]

Im not quite sure what a MACR is but Im assuming that its close to a WO....

I have a question though, would you call a SAC by his/her first name?

In the Andrew a MAA is called Joss....regardless of their gender.

[VigilantPilot]

As I understand this, we are talking about a WO that we are not on familiar terms with?

If I were working/knew a WO very well, I would have thought first names would be fine - as pba_target suggests.

If I didn't know them, then as with anyone, first names would be inappropriate. I don't know how I'd address a female WO, never been in that situation.

[southside]

There seems to be a growing divide here. If I were to meet a WO or NCO or even a young lad at a social event i would introduce myself as " Hi, I'm Bill Bloggs". I would never, ever dream of calling myself "Hi, I'm Lt Cdr Bloggs". Why....cos "Lt Cdr" is not my name.....



If I were to meet a WO or NCO or even a young lad at work then I introduce myself as "Lt Cdr"....

[diginagain]

southside's outed himself.
Sea cadets a tad dull?
:E

[Fg Off Max Stout]

OK, but I wouldn't expect an LAC or SAC to be calling me or any other officer by my first name, social function or not.

The implication of the question was when at work. Would you still recommendhow about finding out her first name and calling her by her first name ?

Masters and WOs on your own sqn, who you know well and work with - possibly (although I think some fresh faced Pilot Officer, two weeks out of Cranwell calling a long-service-good-conduct medalled Master crewman with 10000hrs and two rows of campaign medals by his first name is wholly inappropriate). The SWO and other MACRs and WOs - no way.


A good Officer should take his lead, in all aspects of chappism and service life, from classic British war films, such as 'The Battle Of Britain' (1969). Susannah York, even in a fit of rage, replies to the SWO: "Don't you shout at me, Mr Warrick!". Therein lies your answer.

[southside]

Why wouldn't you like an SAC or LAC to call you by your name?

I have to admit to finding this utterly bizarre that the RAF still utilise the social graces of Guy Gibson and his merry bunch. Maybe you should have watched last nights TV programme to see how Officers and Men work together as a team.

I walk away.

[L J R]

Mr Vice is always MR Vice (regardless of gender) therefore Mr (insert WO name) is always MR - regardless of gender.

.....I'll stand corrected if necessary.

.

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Because it is unmilitary. It shows a level of informality and lack of respect which is almost always inappropriate in military circles. Use of my first name is reserved for my friends and peers, from whom I do not expect or want a continuous level of formality. I do not expect LACs, double glazing call centre operators, bank clerks, or others to make an assumption that they are my best friend.

The rank structure of the RAF is directly descended from that of the Royal Navy. The RN And British Army rank structure has worked very effectively for the best part of 1000 years, and has been copied by almost every nation on earth. If it ain't broke.....

Even the commies, where everyone was apparently equal, had a structure of Officers and Other Ranks. The system worked quite perfectly for 'Guy Gibson and his merry bunch ' during the greatest aerial conflict ever seen, so no, it does not need to be changed. I really don't think that if the Armed Forces were run as a democratic syndicate of equal partners all calling each other Max and South, they would be at all effective. Surely you were taught about leadership structures at Dartmouth, Lt Cdr Side?

By the way, unlike your good self, I don't need to watch TV to see how Officers and Men can work together in an operational environment. I've flown big green multi-crew helicopters on a number of operational dets with embedded engineering and support staff, so I know exactly how Officers and Men work to gether in peacetime and on Ops.

Just what do you do Southside? Where was your last det? A lentil-eating, comfortable shoe wearing, Stop The War rally, where everyone uses first names and there is no heirachy? With a command structure like that you'll have global domination in no time.

Best wishes,

Fg Off Stout

[Onan the Clumsy]

How about Comrade?

[tonkatechie]

Safeware was bang on the mark with:He has climbed to the top of his pile, you are at the bottom of yours, he deserves your respect for that.
From my perspective, it depends upon the situation:

Flt Lt Badminton-Racket: Mr Spleenripper, do you think it would be worth re-training some of the linies on procedure 'X'?
WO Spleenripper: Hmmm....

will get you much further than:

Flt Lt Badminton-Racket: Bob, sort your men out!
WO Spleeripper: F*ck off 'Sir'.

For myself, I've always found it polite to call people 2 ranks above and up by their rank (i.e SAC calls Cpl and Sgt by name once introduced to them as such, but sticks with 'Cheif' and 'Flight') as long as the situation warrants it. The exception is that the Wobbly is always called Sir, no if, but, or maybe about it.

On another note, I seem to remember a new JEngO turning up to a Sqn and introducing himself:
"Hi, I'm Flt Lt Week-willed, but you can call me Simon socially". Very good that, and he spent the rest of his tour being called 'Simon socially'.

[southside]

I fly big angry grey machines. With a crew of 4/5 ....with generally me as the A/C Cmdr along with my oppos, Bill, smudge, Jumper, Daisy and the aircrewman - Chris.

We embark in tin cans for 6 months at a time - going to far off places - some of them are nice with lots of Cocktail parties and some of them are horid with lots of bad guys shooting at you.

And then when we've had enough, we go home and get ready for the next one. Fab !!

[tonkatechie]

Sorry to add yet another part to this thread (didn't think it justifies one of it's own, and here seems to be the most appropriate place) but I wonder if anyone knows the answer to a question none of my JEngOs have been able to help on. Namely:

What is the difference between a Commanding Officer (CO), and an Officer Commanding (OC)? I know Harry Staish is the CO, and my Sqn boss is OC, but is is just position, or is there a rank thing going on here?
I'm sure you guys who are hard at work (on here) in your office complete with QR's and countless other tomes of knowledge next to the PC can help out here - always good for a pub quiz bonus question!

[Descend to What Height?!?]

Many thanks for the replys.

Link to this page passed on to said junior officer on a det somewhere out east.

It was a work context, where MACR from passing crew pops in to the section on business, so little chance of social interaction. Warrant Officer will do nicely until informed otherwise.
:ok:

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Southside, me old shippers.

I am genuinely amazed that you are military aircrew given the opinions you have ventured in many threads on Pprune. That said, if indeed you are a WAFU oggsplosh aviator, then I apologize for any overly harsh banter I may have dished out when we have crossed swords on this and other threads.

You can call me Max.

;)

[RubiC Cube]

Tonka,

You can only have one Commanding Officer on a station, therefore the rest are Officer Commanding a sub unit ie sqn etc. Perversely the Aussies do it in reverse ie the Staish is the OC and sqn cdrs are CO

RubiC

[FJJP]

If you don't know the MACR then it would be proper to address him as 'Mr'. For a female, ask her what form of formal title she wishes to be used [Ms, Mrs - I doubt you would hear 'Ma'am...].

A unit I served on operationally had a clear-cut convention. The Boss was 'Sir' at all times. All officers were first name terms except in formal environments when to do so would be deemed inappropriate. Also except whilst flying when crew position was used. The SNCOs were addressed by first names [mind you, we didn't have any young-ish officers on the Sqn, and for the senior masters, when you joined you usually asked if they minded you using their christian name]. FS and MACR used 'Sir' for officers on duty [in uniform or not] but relaxed to first name terms when out socially. Sgt aircrew called officers and MACR 'Sir' at all times.

It worked very well indeed; the Sqn was a first rate, highly professional, close-knit team with a reputation for producing the goods.

[Bof]

In my day (yawn,yawn) loadies were known as AQMs and the poor s**s couldn't get any further than F/S. Then they graciously allowed them to become "aircrew" and we then got substantive Cpls (acting Sgts) promoted overnight to MAQM on aircrew TOS. i.e. Automatic promotion by time and not waing for dead men's shoes.

Always thought it a good bet that a loadie called Masters living on base would make it to the top. Would his house be known as Master Air Quartermaster Masters' Quarter.


Then they changed the brevet again to ALM........ Oh well.

[cobaltfrog]

The staff answer (Debretts induced with some licence!) is that you would call her, Ms Smith.

I will nail my hat to the line and say it would be a very unwise YO/JO who calls a MACR/WO/RSM! by their first name. In the army you would get a no coffee bollocking from the RSM and the Adjutant!

They have earned the rank/rate and therefore deserved to be called according to it, just like you should be addressed as sir or ma'am by them.

I do however accept that Sqn's may be different, but even then wait until you are guided by those more senior and wiser than you!!

[Lafyar Cokov]

Surely... If she's married she'd be Mrs and if she was unmarried she'd be Miss - or am I stuck back in the 1890s???

[VigilantPilot]

What about if you called them "Warrant Officer _______ " ?

[Washington_Irving]

At what point did it no longer become acceptable for JOs to solicit advice from WOs and SNCOs?

Although the laydees in question will probably derive a little bit of private satisfaction in being able to cause so much confusion among the officer ranks, they are professional and will recognise that it is in no-one's interest to see an officer making a prat out of him/herself by stumbling about like a wooden-top.

When you have a quiet moment, just ask her if she'd rather be addressed by rank or title (Mrs,Miss, Ms). First name terms are out, both as a matter of respect (as discussed above) and because you're going to need to know how to refer to her in front of the ORs. Naturally, first name terms are out there because in order to do her job properly, the lads and lasses need to know that she is on their side and not part of the rupert club.

Point of information, the only female WO I've seen was an army WOII, and she went by "Mrs" among the ruperts.

[FFP]

Thanks for the lesson Wyler. If I ever have to speak to one of these MACR / WO types, I shall now know what to do. . .

But really , if you have to wonder what to call a WO, then the answer is

1) Mr / Mrs Smith.

followed by

2) Excuse me Mr / Mrs Smith, but how would you like to be addressed ?

But then some JO's / Masters develop such a relationship that first names are used, depending on whose around.

Some of them quite like it I'd imagine . . . . ;)

( Guess your definition of JO can be wooly too. Pilot Officer holding in Ops or Aircraft Captain ? )

[PPRuNeUser0211]

But surely she would be mistress;) Again, wouldn't dream of calling the SWO Bill, more Mr Bloggs, but then if you work day to day with them much more appropriate for first names all round, much less grief (unless perhaps formal/semi formal in front of the troops)

[Mmmmnice]

I've only got 5 years to do and, as there appears to be no concensus, could someone let me know where all these female MACR are; so that I can avoid them, and the issue in general - ta

[Onan the Clumsy]

I fly big angry grey machines. With a crew of 4/5 I know you chaps have a hearty dislike of LEAN, but I didn't realise it was forcing crewing levels down to 80%

[FB11]

Rubic,

You can only have one Commanding Officer on a station, therefore the rest are Officer Commanding a sub unit ie sqn etc.

Not so in the RN. A Squadron commander is CO as is the CO of the base.

I hope CO Cottesmore doesn't get too much of an inferiority complex when, on 31 Mar 06, CO 800 NAS and 6 months later CO 801 NAS appear on the scene. I'm sure they'll all be very chilled and relaxed.

But not on first name terms. (Did you see what I did there?)

[Bobchunter]

Just to add something to a few posts back - female version of a Mr Vice is Madam Vice....

[moony]

Spoke to a married female SWO at my last unit and asked her what the correct form of address was. She said call me Mrs ......

[Safety_Helmut]

Tonkatechie

Tried to send you a PM. I think that both Safeware and I know who "Simon Socially" might be, give us more of a clue please mate ?

Safety_Helmut

[Rakshasa]

"Oi, Smith!" "Oi, Bill" "Oi, Boss" and "Excuse me, sir."

All seem to work depending on who and or where I'm addressing someone.

Female WO? Never met one..... So not a clue.

[tonkatechie]

RubiC, FB11,
Thanks for clearing that up - saves me repeating last nights attempts to find an answer in QRs, got some funny looks from my mates (and superiors who now think I'm planning some sort of 'by the book' mutiny) for reading that at work. Even got casually asked "you sure you don't want a copy of MAFL while you're there?"....

[tablet_eraser]

Sadly, going a few posts back, I can vouch for the fact that not ALL WOs are professional enough to avoid allowing - or, indeed, to avoid causing - young officers to seem unprofessional/clumsy...

As to the question of first-name terms, I would never, EVER consider calling a WO, FS or Sgt by his/her first name until invited to do so. You respect their rank, and they will respect yours (if not necessarily the person wearing it).

NEVER confuse your rank with their experience.

[HTB]

t_e

More to the point, NEVER confuse experience with ability.:D

[buoy15]

Diplomacy and Tact cost nothing, but can gain a lot of respect

A mate of mine was a MACR (WO) for a year, and eventually aspired to Sqn Ldr

He was of the old school and, having been there himself, insisted on addressing WO's as Mr, unless he knew them personally, and then it was by first name

He always addressed the SWO as Mr ( if the post was male, even if he knew him personally) - if the SWO was female, it was Stn Warrant Officer, unless she relented and said "Just call me darling or Samantha"!

What annoyed him was that the percieved rank structure placed WO above MACR (groundcrew mentality), although they both shared the same wording on the Royal Warrant

The final arbiter was the Air Force List

He was promoted to MACR (accelerated 3 months) along with a mate (passed over 3 times) When they appeared on the same List for promotion- his mate claimed he was senior to him because his name appeared earlier in the List alphabetically ! Ha!

Knob becomes before Nob

Kitch, where are you?

[Washington_Irving]

"Sadly, going a few posts back, I can vouch for the fact that not ALL WOs are professional enough to avoid allowing - or, indeed, to avoid causing - young officers to seem unprofessional/clumsy..."

I haven't met a WO yet who would intentionally embarrass a JO. Taking your statement literally for a moment, I'd have to say that there are limits to anybody's ability to prevent a JO from behaving like a t!t if he/she is really determined.

I'm sure the old sweat with 30yrs service continues to be amazed by the new and exciting ways that a shiny new Plt Off/Fg Off can turn things into a dog's dinner in short order. Might even be one of the things that keeps him in.

"You will call me Sir, and I will call you Sir. The difference is that YOU will mean it!"
:E

[STANDTO]

has anyone else still got the blue pamphet from the 80's entitled'Officer Behaviour'? Had a picture on the front of a sword and sash winner outside CHOM.

I still pick it up for a read every now and then. Simple, decent manners, and guidance on social etiquette. If more people observed these simple rules then imho, the world would be a better place.

I'd love to see the latest version.

'When dressed in civilian attire, it is customary to pull one's hoodie off one's head before entering the bar area. A young officer should also be mindful that the RAF is somewhat reactionary in its customs, and alcopops may not be available in all messes. In those that do serve modern drinks, one should ALWAYS pour it into a glass'

[obnoxio f*ckwit]

On a similar vein, when meeting an Army WO1 for the first time, (so are unable to use the "Mr X" address, as you have no idea of his name) would one say "Good Morning, Warrant Officer" or "Good Morning, Sgt Major". And is there a difference if he was a WO2? Only 15 years on SH, and haven't worked that out yet!

[diginagain]

For the definitive answer, I'd suggest reading the thread started by New_WO

Sorry, I edited it due to a waah-detector going off somewhere.

Let's cover it again. You'd call an Army Warrant Officer 'Sir' or 'Ma'am', as appropriate. An Officer might refer to him (or her) by their appointment, such as 'RSM', if they were aquainted.

[obnoxio f*ckwit]

Diginagain, think calling him "Sir" would raise a few eyebrows, but go on about Sgt Major being an appointment, it that sort of information I am after.

Don't think I could stand reading New_WO's thread again, the above questions do not apply there, a call of "Oi" would suffice in his case.

And then you went and edited your post while I was typing mine!

[diginagain]

Sorry, Bud, I've changed it back. Ish. To use your example, you're meeting them for the first time, so you've no idea what appointment they hold, be it Sqn/Company/Band Sergeant Major or whatever, so 'Sir/Ma'am' is appropriate. The person on the receiving end will provide their preferred title.

They may be a WO without appointment, so while the honorific 'Sergeant Major' may please the recipient, it would not be quite correct.

Now, there are certain units who don't use the title Sergeant, but Corporal of Horse, but lets save that for a really slow night.

[obnoxio f*ckwit]

Sorry digin, maybe I was being too cryptic! They would call me Sir. Whereas one could easily say "Excuse me Sergeant" if attracting the attention of a SNCO I didn't know, "excuse me, Warrant Officer" seems very cumbersome. Up till now I've just stuck with Sgt Major, and haven't been shouted at yet, so I'll just run with that.

Ta anyway

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Seems like most of you folks need a tour on SH or Fixed wing as the thorny probs you are describing just don't exist.

Max,
I cannot imagine being at a social function and expecting those of a lower rank than me to call me by my rank..................get a life Sir:rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[tablet_eraser]

ABIW

Surely you'd rather your juniors showed your rank and experience the respect they deserve, and waited for you to invite them to call you by your first name?

[bird99]

Sorry if I've missed this in the replies but anyone at Odiham in the early 90s would know Mrs T - the fantastic SWO - and even though I was a JO and we became good friends I NEVER referred to her as anything other than Mrs T - she (rightly) scared me too much! It was a no-brainer so can't see why this thread is so long - master aircrew and WOs earn the right to be referred to as Mr.Mrs.Miss depending on sex/status and that's all there is to it. Same in the Navy.

[Oggin Aviator]

The 2 RN WO's who did the rounds of the CVS Ops departments in the mid - late 90's (and more recently) were either Mr B or Mr G depending on who it was. Everyone called them that - it was a sign of respect as well as being quite proper in all aspects. I would assume if it had been a female, it would have been Mrs B or Mrs G (for example).

Both Mr B (now outside) and Mr G (still serving) were absolutely awesome and I have the greatest respect for both of them - they knew everyone, were a great bridge between the ops dept and the aircrew and a tremendous source of knowledge, expertise and downright good times when just shooting the breeze. Hats off to you both, gentlemen.

Oggin

[The Swinging Monkey]

Gents,

She is MACR and therefore, as with most MACR (male or female) the chances are that she won't give a to$$ what you call her, as long as you have a smile on your face.
Just a word or warning tho' to all you sprog JOs - a MACR is NOT a WO, and to refer to one of them as such is a fate worse than death, believe me. Most of them (especially the big hairy-ar$ed male ones, will bite your head off!! - literally!! and shove it up your little bottoms!

Kind regards to all, especially ALL MACRs
TSM

[Fg Off Max Stout]

I cannot imagine being at a social function and expecting those of a lower rank than me to call me by my rank

If the newest airman on station found himself sitting in a restaurant at a table adjacent to the Staish should it be "Evening, Sir" or "Alright, Harry"?

ABIW, you're fully entitled to that opinion and your own policy but I suggest that it is a slightly different matter between a sneck (as I assume you are) and the lads compared to a hoffisuh and the lads. The point is that I respect the rank of other members of the forces, higher and lower (especially Masters/WOs whose experience is much greater than mine) and expect the same in return. The way the members of an SH to 2Gp crew interact is quite a separate issue from the RAF at large.

I alluded to frickin' call centres earlier. When you're on the blower to some corporation and the converstaion goes something like:

"We just need to verify your details. Can I have your name please"
"Mr Stout"
"And your first name"
"Max"
"Hi Max, can I interest you in......"

Tell me that does not grip your sh1t. Politeness and formality should be the norm until it is appropriate to dispense with it.

[vecvechookattack]

If the newest airman on station found himself sitting in a restaurant at a table adjacent to the Staish should it be "Evening, Sir" or "Alright, Harry ...

No, No. It should be " Good evening Mr Staish, Darling, can I introduce you to the station Commander, Harry Staish"

I junior airman would never ever call an officer sir whilst off duty.

[Fg Off Max Stout]

You don't stop being a serviceman after 5 o'clock. (Note for Pongos and Fishheads: You are now expected to dust off your oldest Crab jokes including the 'this service is not available after 1600 or at weekends' email.;)

I would suggest that it should be:

"Good evening, Sir. Darling, can I introduce you to the Station Commander, Gp Capt Staish"
"Pleased to meet you, I'm Harry".

It is the Staish's prerogative to dispense with formality, which in this case, is entirely appropriate.

Any IOT Flt Cdrs out there to give us the current official line?

[Twonston Pickle]

Max,

A good solution to the social problem. I used to socialise with the staff at a very small and isolated unit of which I was OC. The more senior army bods were unable to call me by my first name, even off-duty and downtown, so they resorted to "Boss"; it gave nothing away to eaves-droppers and the army boys felt they were retaining some formality and respect.

[cobaltfrog]

Top Tip - Don't call your RSM a Sarn't Major otherwise you will feel his pace stick up your *rse!

Why

Because technically The CSM/SSM is the Sarn't Major and the RSM is the RSM!!

If you dont know him then his full title would be appropriate. "Good morning Regimental Sarn't Major" to which one would expect a 'Good morning sir' accompanied by a very smart salute, which he would expect you to return immaculately. If not, as a Junior Officer, you would have an impromptu drill lesson!!

[john50uk]

- Don't call your RSM a Sarn't Major otherwise you will feel his pace stick up your *rse!

Had a problem in Gutersloh in mid 80s while in departure lounge waiting to fly to Canada.

Tapped guy on shoulder " Have you got a light mate?" Guy informed me he was the Regimental Seargent Major of the 1st Battlion the Blankshire Regiment, and I was most definatley not his mate. ( I was a Cpl at the time). To be fair he did offer me a light after he made it plain to everyone in the terminal who he was. Great start to six week a battlegroup exercise!

[southside]

It is the Staish's prerogative to dispense with formality No, no,no. Surely it would be the Junior Airmans prerogative to dispense with formality. Any Staish worth his salt would understand that and would be horrified if he was approached whilst off duty and called "Sir"

[DC10RealMan]

I am very interested by this thread and I know that it is somewhat off the topic, but I am a civilian, but I do work with some military officers (commissioned and non-commissioned). I normally address them by christian names, however recently I was introduced to a very senior RAF officer I think he was an air chief marshal or similar who introduced himself with his christian name. How would one address him as a civilian?. I did not call him "Mate" even I am not that stupid. I wondered what your collective thoughts might be as I was acutely aware of lots of "scrambled egg" on his uniform and his retinue of wing commanders and squadron leaders.

[Safeware]

DC10 man

AVM Joe Bloggs, to a civilian, is Joe, unless you feel mortally compelled to do otherwise. For the more junior serviceman, it's the opposite.

sw

[Safety_Helmut]

What's the opposite of Joe ?

[buoy15]

DC10 Real Man

Exactly - catch up lad on previous threads

The CAS "invited" you to call him Peter, hence, that's how he introduced himself

He has been trained to "break the ice" to get the best out of people, knowing that some may be intimidated by his persona, rank, and impressive gold braid paraphernalia (big word that!)

By talking to him at a relaxed level on the factory floor, he will get a better feel about what's going on, listen to your argument and go away with an informed and balanced impression of your problems - send him away knowing he's in your gang!

Take advantage of these situations - prepare a brief - keep it concise and factual - highlight your areas of weakness and strength - first impressions are also lasting impressions

KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid - seems to work

However, in these changing times, you must Love many, Trust a few, and always paddle your own canoe!