QF? Bus go-around Monday Night 1930 est

[7gcbc]

quick one ?, after work sitting on my balcony, beer in hand, love watching the dual approaches to 16L and 16R (I know sad sad sad, but can't help it - the days are long and the sound of the dak and beavers also add to the relaxation factor), noticed a bus on approach to 16L pitchup quiet firmly and definitely, donkeys spooled up, and I found myself muttering "clean up" under my breath.. a bit hazy and the sun was low so may have not been a QF

no big deal, it took some time and I did not see it clean up abefore disappearing behind the trees, later (5-8 mins) I saw same a/c heading back in on approach , question on the pitch up, it certainly looked dramatic from where i sat, and what is the length of time or sequence to clean up, or does the big TOGA button and little french computers do all that in their own time following a missed approach ?

my viewing point is 3-4 km off 16L approach around balmain, so the go-around would probably have been initiated around annandale/glebe.

no hidden agenda, curious to know if it was a training flight, delay on vacation 16L or R or whatever.

cheers

7gcbc

[Chimbu chuckles]

7gcbc

On a Boeing, and they don't vary THAT much in the nuts and bolts department just some of the words used to achieve the same result, the GA would be achieved thus;

PF decides GA warranted hits the GA button under his thumb, 'briskly' pushes the thrust levers to the full forward position and calls "Going around, flaps 20". He then pitches the aircraft up following the the FD bars to the GA pitch attitude, or monitors, as does PNF, that the AFGS (Auto Flight Guidance System...fancy word for A/P) does.

PNF checks for positive rate and calls

"Postive rate"

PF "Gear up".

All it takes is for the PNF to get caught up in procedings and not call 'positive rate' and the gear gets forgotten until the collective pulse rates return to some semblance of normal....followed by a sheepish "Oh ahh...positive rate" "Yeah gear up" :ok:

PNF would call "ABC Going Around" and they would then follow ATC vectors...or in the case of IMC follow published procedures until told otherwise.

In a well executed GA it happens about as fast as you can read the above...in the real world GAs are about the most commonly cocked up manouver pilots do due lack of practice....not saying that was the case in the one you watched :rolleyes: ;)

Generally in the operation I fly for we, on late finals when all other checklists are complete would brief for the possibility thus.

PF - "If we need to GA it will be "GA/flap 20/positive rate/gear up we'll climb straight ahead, accelerate alt is xxxx' (usually approach minima + 1000') we'll maintain flap 5, Vref 30 + 40 and accept vectors at MSA".

PNF- "Checked"

The are obviously MUCH easier flown coupled than manually and the possibility of needing to do one in anger is always there for a variety of reasons...usually the proceeding aircraft not clearing the active quick enough...as a result, and especially in the wee small hrs at the end of a 8-12 hr sector, good airmanship often dictates leaving the automatics in until 300' ish on finals and then disconnecting just to land manually.

Hope this helps.

[DeBurcs]

Allow me to pedanticise for a moment....

That's not the TO/GA button under your thumb, Chuck...!! :ok: You won't get far pushing that!!

:p

[*Lancer*]

The TO/GA switch can vary on different aircraft. On the 767 it is in exactly the same place as the A/T disconnect is on the 747. Generally speaking they tend to be exciting (cos we don't get them that often) but straightforward. Push the button (A/T does the thrust), call for flaps, pitch up (less than a 10 deg pitch change), call for gear, change modes/verify tracking and altitude etc, and accelerate.

Over Glebe-ish you're about 1500' for 16L, thats very high for a G/A... normally whatever occurred to warrant it would have only been apparent later in the approach.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Deburcs...on the 767 they are 'under' the thrust lever and you use your thumb...after carefully confirming your thumb is on the GA button not, as mentioned above, the A/T disconect on the side of the thrust lever:uhoh:

Under our SOPs we 'help' the thrust levers get where they are going rather than let the A/T do it unaided....just to pedanticise back at ya :ok:

[7gcbc]

Thanks replies Chuckles, Lancer and indeed DeBurcs.

working out my line of sight and angle off the approach, I was looking pretty much 260-280 into the sun, so that would have put the bus in or around Glebe-ish, at definitely sub 2000.

Maybe I'm wrong, but the pitch up looked "quite definite" and from my line of sight, the bus seemed initially to roll to the left, then the right and then pitched up (at a guess more than 10 deg, looked initially like at least 15-20 to me) it then later flattened out.

I spotted her later on a "wide" recipocial returing to re-join the approach with a right turn somewhere over the western burbs.

Must have been fun for the crew.

thanks replies all, espec the explaination of the GA procs.


Cheers

7g

[Chimbu chuckles]

Given your indications of rolling left then right they may have hit wake from a preceding heavy jet...not uncommon these days where the aim is to cram as many movements/hr into airports. It can be nasty even in a 767 when you hit preceeding wake...often it is a LOT closer to the ground to...each time it has happened to me it has been < 200' at places like Dubai and Heathrow.

On twin jets, especially more modern widebodies, the pitch up is often in the order of 15-20 degrees at lighter weights. This is because the twins with both running are fairly overpowered (no such thing really :E ) compared to the 4 engined aircraft...to meet SE takeoff obstacle clearance/SE cruise driftdown and ETOPs requirements. The ETOPs part being to maintain high TAS (400ktas SE in the 767 case) to maximise distance allowed from suitable enroute alternates under 120 or 180 minutes ETOPs approvals where distance is the limiting factor not the actual time spent getting there.

[*Lancer*]

Mind you Chuckles (just to be pedantic ;) ), A/T will set thrust for a ROC of 2000 fpm on first push -- which won't be nearly as dramatic as going for the second push and shooting for Mars.

At that height it could have been a TCAS RA, but they're pretty rare on an ILS. Or really bad windshear... Still, that's what TOGA is for! :D

[DeBurcs]

Ah, so... Well it did, indeed, sound convincing when you described it - and for a reason, obviously!

The 737 is an index-finger job. Please allow me unpedanticise my earlier comment, then... :p

On the topic, not sure about the 330 procedures but some operators insist on climbing at Vref30 (or whatever) plus your additive, until reaching the MAP Altitude, and only then accelerating. This may have added to the "steep" effect.

Yes, a go-around is fun. I like it because we hardly ever do them and it wakes the pax up to the fact they are in an aircraft, not a bus (even on an airbus).

[Chimbu chuckles]

lancer...:ok: :}

The 767 FD pitches up to maintain the speed you had at GA engagement (better go and pull out the Boeing manual and check that in case some loser asks :E )...Vref30 + 5-10kts would be common...and as lancer suggests AT would set thrust to maintain 2000'/min (it reduces to that after we finish shoving to the wall :E )....then accelerate to Vref30+40, flaps from 20 to 5 if immediate return to land or Vref30+80/flaps 0 for extended swanning around.

I have no idea what the 330 does but would be surprised if it was not similar in effect even though the Froggies want to talk about 'green dot' speed or some such terminolgy seemingly just intended to be different from Boeing.

Tis ALL good fun....not as exciting on average as bush flying...haven't landed with my knees knocking (except in a sim) in over a decade:( but still beats the crap out of working for a living:ok:

[nomorecatering]

Is a GA allways done with the TOGA buttons, ie take off power(or near so). pitch up similar to the after take off climb??. If doing a manual landing, can you just apply some power and like cruise climb? Note this is for go arounds from say 500 too 1000'.

Reason why I ask is I have seen probably a dozen go arounds from 16R and 25 where the aircraft made something like a level segment or shallow climb while overflying the centreline with significantly less power applied that other go arounds I have seen. From directly below the angle may have been hard to guess, but looked much like a airshow fly past if u get my drift.

These were all in day VMC in clear weather.

[swh]

Bus dont have "go-around" buttons.

Thrust levers to TOGA, flap back one step, +ve rate gear up, just follow flight director.

Must always go to TOGA (to activate go around mode) and then can reduce to climb straight away if planning to level off at 1000-1500 ft, on a VMC day this is better, just join downwind for a visual circuit.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Indeed...half arse GA is not clever.

In the 767 you hit the GA toggle under the thrust lever and then immediately hit FLCH (Flight Level CHange) which calms things down a lot. The thrust levers won't have got even close to TOGA power (on a 'planned' GA in VMC you wouldn't necesarily 'help' the thrust levers) and will move to an intermediate setting designed to reach the target altitude in the ALT SEL window in 2 minutes. Generally a GA alt will only be 2000-3500' and if you are at 300-1000 that's only a gentle 500-1000'/min climb. You can then alter the ALT SEL up or down as required by ATC, HDG bug left or right as required...or stay in LNAV if following the published majenta line.

You could use VS also but it has traps...the main one being if you are a bit quick you may still be descending when you hit VS and that is the direction and rate it will capture...if you hit GA and VS really quick and the aeroplane is still descending at say 100-200'/min at 135KIAS when VS activates that's what it will keep doing :uhoh: if only at a 100' it doesn't take much in the way of a distraction before it gets dangerous :ugh: Especially in Low Vis Ops with no visual cues.

VS can drive you away from selected altitude where FLCH wont:ok:

Hitting GA gets you going in the right direction pronto...but there is no reason, usually, to stay in that mode...the windshear escape manouver being an exception as is hard warning on the EGPWS :(

A single engined GA is another...on a ILS all three A/Ps control the aircraft...well actually two with one being a tie breaker...and they control the rudder...so you'd stay in GA for a LOT longer before selecting another mode to get settled and ready to hold the rudder in and trim out the assy forces....as soon as you select any other mode from GA you revert to single A/P operation and, if not ready for it, the aircraft is perfectly capable of rolling inverted real quick....in GA mode the 'speed' window opens and you can, if you so desire, wind the speed up and accelerate the aircraft while maintaining the IRS track over the ground and stay in GA mode/3 A/P operation as long as you like.

Well hope someone found that interesting:}

[nomorecatering]

Chimbu, much appreciate your informative post.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Oh...and if you're handflying it all works the same way...you just ask for FLCH etc etc and your buddy does it for you...but between talking on the radio and multiple button pushing, alt sel/hdg bug changing, flap/gear selections etc it gets REALLY busy for the PNF while you just follow the FD (while also looking 'through it' to ensure it is actually taking you somehwere you want to go) Hence the preferred technique, by many, of staying coupled until the chances of a GA are bordering on nil.

[7gcbc]

Chimbu

Certainly did find this very interesting, Thank you for taking the time to respond.:ok:

[NAMPS]

Actually, I saw the same thing, though from a different position.

I was near Hurstville at the time and noticed that the landing gear did not go up until about the time it crossed the Georges River. It was heading south just to the east of Hurstville before turning west.

[VH-RMV]

Thanks from me also! Very interesting stuff! :ok: