Civilian ATC at Military airfields

[Ops and Mops]

Hi all,

Does anyone know if any of the civilian contractors that provide ATC services at Military Aerodromes are recruiting licenced and previously valid ATCO's, but are just not advertising?

I'm looking to do something different from "sausage machine" ops!

Cheers!

[niknak]

Serco do ATC at Wattisham and Middle Wallop. The money is good, and I know that at Wattisham, when the army go on holiday, so does ATC, so the time off is pretty good. As to recruiting, I don't know about current vacancies, but it's always worth registering your interest if that's what you really want.

I've know idea where you work now, but if you're bored with civil op's, the military airfields offer no more variation, in fact Wattisham and Middle Wallop are less exciting than grass growing or paint drying.

Why not try a regional airport, where you get to "mix it" properly? or is that too scary for you to contemplate...?:E

[OCEAN WUN ZERO]

Try EGBE, only sausages in the Baps
[email protected]
:D

[LXGB]

Niknak,
You cheeky swine! ;) What-a-shame's plenty busy thanks. At least you didn't say as boring as Sudoku though :bored: , that would have been a real insult. It's great fun mixing Apaches, Alberts and SAR scrambles with the odd FJ PD thrown in for good measure. Come visit sometime!

Best Regards,
LXGB

:ok:


"Tora Tora Tora!":yuk:

[204red]

niknak,
Wattisham....money is good.......as boring as watching paint dry or grass grow......
Clearly you have never visited the place ;)

[cdb]

RAF Woodvale, near Blackpool

Maybe also Boscome Down?

(both run by Vosper Thornycroft I think)

[CAP493]

Boscombe Down remains an RAF ATC unit; BAe Warton (staffed by civil controllers) is the next best thing. There's also the JEFTS at Barkston Heath.

One of the best things about working at a military unit as a civilian controller is that you don't have to salute anybody!!!

:hmm:

[radarman]

Ops and Mops,
Don't know what your background or expectations are, but Gibraltar is very short right now. NATS take over from SERCO on 1 January (despite threats from Gisajob :p ). Pay is good, but traffic levels are very low, and 80% of that is civilian. Have a word with NATS if you're interested.

[Ops and Mops]

Hi all.

Thanks for your replies.

At the moment I work at a pretty busy Regional/International Airport but am looking for a change of emphasis. Although I still enjoy my job, working at a military airfield is more my kind of "thing" having been in the RAF (although not as a controller!)

The ideal scenario for me would be somewhere like Warton, but I believe it is very much "dead mans shoes" to get in there.

Before I put pen to paper, does having both civvy Tower and Approach Radar Tickets (Sorry ADI and APS!) but no Approach Procedural affect my options?

radarman

Gib sounds very nice, however just how low are the traffic levels now?

niknak
Why not try a regional airport, where you get to "mix it" properly? or is that too scary for you to contemplate...?
Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, book and DVD. Time to stretch the old horizons a bit! :p

Cheers!

[CAP493]

...does having both civvy Tower and Approach Radar Tickets (Sorry ADI and APS!) but no Approach Procedural affect my options?

Don't know about Warton, but as as far as I know, at the military ATC units, you would probably need to hold (or eventually acquire) the civil approach procedural rating because these units all operate an 'approach' service albeit in accordance with JSP552.

Some of them still even provide QGHs!!!

Forgot previously, also to mention Wyton, which is another military unit staffed by civil ATCOs.

Easiest way to find out is to write to the SATCOs or ATS Managers at the units concerned.

:ok:

[chevvron]

If you're so keen, why not apply to the RAF for one of their 'aviation officer' posts which are advertised in Flight from time to time; may even be in RAF News, available at most newsagents. You get commisioned as Flt Lt RAFRO and as far as I know, you hold an RAF C of C rather than CAA Licence, but prior military experience is not required.
I did 20 odd years military ATC on a civil licence, and can verify that most of the time it's more exciting; the problem with standard RAF airfields is just that; they aim to be as standard as possible between units so that when you're posted, you take the minimum time to go solo.
By the way niknak, I thought SERCo had lost Wattisham just as they lost Gibraltar (but not to the same provider) and what about Netheravon?.
radarman; I'd be interested to know where you get your info about Gib; as far as I know there's a queue of NATS controllers champing at the bit to go there!

[Ops and Mops]

To become an AvO Air traffic Controller:

it is a requirement to have held an endorsement in Military Air Traffic Control.

[Ops and Mops]

Just to bump this back up again and to confirm the current contractors for addressing letters, can anyone confirm or deny the following?

Barkston Heath : VT Aerospace
Wattisham: Serco or VT Aerospace now?
Wyton: VT Aerospace
Middle Wallop: Serco
Warton: BAe Systems
Woodvale: VT Aerospace

Also any "inside info" (via PM if you so wish) as to who may be looking for controllers would be a bonus! :ok:

[LXGB]

Middle Wallop and Wattisham are Serco.

LXGB

[Chilli Monster]

Barkston Heath is Babcock (http://www.babcock.co.uk)

[Pierre Argh]

How about one the other way around... ATC at Newquay Cornwall Airport (a.k.a. RAF St Mawgan) is provided by the military

[A good headin]

I did 20 odd years military ATC on a civil licence, and can verify that most of the time it's more exciting;
:ok: :D

You have made a military controller very happy with your comment, I am off to cry in a dark corner of the Approach Room following such kind words from a civil controller.

We love you all too! (Heathrow Director excepted, if he is still alive.)

[Gisajob]

Latest List
Barkston Heath : Babcock (Aerodrome ratings only)
Wattisham: Serco
Wyton: VT Aerospace
Middle Wallop: Serco
Warton: BAe Systems (prefer ex-mil ATCOs)
Woodvale: VT Aerospace but they subcontract to Serco
Netheravon: VT Aerospace
Gibraltar: NATS
Llanbedr: Serco

[bottom rung]

I thought that Llanbedr had closed and Netheravon hasn't had actual ATC (as opposed to AFISOs) for a few years?:confused:

[Gisajob]

Thanks, I think you are right

[chevvron]

To A good headin:
One of the advantages of operating in a military style environment is the CT requirement for aircrew to practice emergencies. ATC benefit because they have to handle these emergencies, and hence get a lot more 'live' practice than a normal civil ATSU.
When the 8 hr ECT requirement was first brought in by SRG, my unit was given a 50% exemption (only 4 hours required) on the strength of the number of live practice incidents we handled.

[captain_flynn]

How about one the other way around... ATC at Newquay Cornwall Airport (a.k.a. RAF St Mawgan) is provided by the military

Yeah but I think it's been a military airfield much longer. The civil part was built on one side of the airfield most likely because the public wouldnt of liked the idea of another airport being built. However the military side is to be moth balled, so i'm not sure whats going to happen there now.

[A good headin]

chevvron

Glad to hear you enjoy playing with the military emergency trainset.

Quick Q for you about civil emergency training.

While on a visit to the DFS in Frankfurt I saw German civil controllers playing with emergencies in the simulators. They carried out emergency training after passing their 'basic' ATC training and every two years experienced controllers had to come back and do emergency refresher training. They did this (not under any exam conditions) as a way to improve experience and share knowledge with 28 exercises. In the Tower Sim (TOSIM) they were able to upload their home airfield and I thought this was a superb way to keep civil guys up to speed on emergencies, which thankfully are not as routine.

Do you guys have such a system or do you think it would be good to introduce?

[chevvron]

In NATS we have a system called 'TRUCE' (Training in Unusual Circumstances and Emergencies). This involves completion of an annual training requirment which could consist of actual emergencies handled (with a de-brief by a local examiner) or various types of simulation.

Ref St Mawgan: I remember reading in one of the Action Stations volumes that it was actually a sort of afterthought.
There was a need for an airfield in the area during WW2 to protect the south west approaches; an airfield was built at Trebelzue but being on a spit of land, the weather meant it was unuseable for much of the time, so another airfield was constructed about half a mile north east called St Mawgan. If you look at aerial photo's of DG, you'll see the runway patterns of Trebelzue till there; it's connected to DG in fact; occupied by NASA or USCG or someone - perhap somebody else can confirm?
There's an interesting situation at Newquay in bad weather where I think the APATC-1 approach minima are somewhat different to JAR Ops minima, so when a civil aircraft lands in 550m when the RAF have to use 800m, they get MOR'd! (I hope I've got that right; apologies if I haven't)

[captain_flynn]

Hey

I have never heard of Trebelzue before. I'll have a look the next time i'm out that way though as i've got to penetrate the DG MATZ when on my qualifying x-country to plymouth.

Speaking of DG and its possible closure. If they do mothball it, will the airfield lose its MATZ if it remains open to civil traffic?

[chevvron]

If you look at St Mawgan from the air, there's a large parking area to the south west of the hangars, south west of this are a couple of disused runways which formed Trebelzue. It's a bit like Prestwick, where Ayr (Heathfield) was just at the southern end of runway 03, although I think 03 was a lot longer than it is now, and Heathfield is probably a housing estate now.

[siam]

Woodvale is VT aerospace same as Wyton serco have not been there for 5 years. However I dont think Woodvale and Wyton would provide the excitement you seem to be looking for. They are just UAS and AEF flying tutors no radar just QGH's. But on the plus side no working nights, bank holiday weekends, christmas, when it rains, when it is windy and when nobody can be bothered!

[captain_flynn]

Hey

This is a rather poor photo that I took of RAF St Mawgan, but can you see the area that you spoke of in the photo?

http://www.myaviation.net/search/photo_search.php?id=00242468&size=large

[Pierre Argh]

Chevron says... an airfield was built at Trebelzue but being on a spit of land, the weather meant it was unuseable for much of the time, so another airfield was constructed about half a mile north east called St Mawgan. If you look at aerial photo's of DG, you'll see the runway patterns of Trebelzue till there; it's connected to DG in fact; occupied by NASA or USCG or someone - perhap somebody else can confirm?
There's an interesting situation at Newquay in bad weather where I think the APATC-1 approach minima are somewhat different to JAR Ops minima, so when a civil aircraft lands in 550m when the RAF have to use 800m, they get MOR'd!

Trebelzue was an airfield pre-war, it was requisitioned at the start of WWII. It wasn't built on a spit at all, but final approach over the cliffs was considered too dodgy... so SMG was constructed slightly further inland. The runway pattern at Trebelzue is indeed still clear, and the old Control Tower is there, but used for other purposes nowadays. This has nothing to do with NASA or USCG as he suggests... but some equipment used by both SMG and other units has been located there.

RAF St Mawgan is NOT being mothballed, it is to CLOSE! Finished, ceased to be, no more... The disposal of the airfield is being considered, and unless another government use is found one option is that it might become an independant civil airport? If so, it will lose it's MATZ and be left with only the ATZ. (Controlled airspace is unlikely with the number of flights currently using NCA?)

Finally, as I've said elsewhere... the MOR* issue is a simple matter of regulations. ALL military airfields are required by JSP552 (not APATC-1 as he suggest) to record any incidence of a pilot making an approach to their airfield in a reported visibility of less than 1000m.An Approach in vis of 550m is accdeptable... the minima in the absence of RVR is actually 450m, but IMHO the UK military ATC system is so obliging they will not question or stop a pilot making an approach in ANY vis but it WILL be recorded. The reports on civil aircraft are info'd to the CAA, and what they then do with that information is their business.

So to hopefully put it to bed once and for all, it is NOT site specific and not prohibition of, nor an increase in minima... few other RAF airfields see anything like the number of civil moves seen at SMG, so will have less reason to obey this regulation (which may be why is appears to be a SMG issue?) If this is still an issue with you as an operator, I suggest Chevron discusses this with SMG, STC or SRG?

* It is NOT an MOR (military units cannot raise MORs)

[captain_flynn]

Its not being mothballed? The last I heard was that it was.

Thanks for the information :)

[Ops and Mops]

Thanks for all the info!

siam

To be honest, if Woodvale or Wyton et al were recruiting, I would certainly still be interested to see what was on offer! (even though Wattisham/Middle Wallop sound pretty good!)