View Full Version : Direct Entry F/O advert
29th Nov 2005, 20:13
Saw this advert on www.pilotcrewjobs.com.
Position Offered: First Officers (Very Rare Opportunity)
November 8 2005
Cathay Pacific Airways, based in Hong Kong, has a limited number of opportunities for direct entry First Officers flying Airbus throughout the Asia/Pacific area. ICAO ATPL required with at least 2000 hours TT with 500 hours jet or turbine experience. Must have current A320 type rating or similar. Initial one year contract and applications must be made directly through AINCO Leasing (please do not contact Cathay Pacific directly regarding these positions). This is an exciting opportunity with excellent renumeration and benefits.
Employer: Cathay Pacific Airways (through AINCO Leasing)
Contact: Robin Jamison at AINCO Leasing by fax at +64-9-3531435 - Please quote reference: PilotCrewJobs.com
Is this real?
30th Nov 2005, 06:12
+64 is the country code for New Zealand I think.....
30th Nov 2005, 08:18
Correct, 64 is New Zealand.
1st Dec 2005, 02:30
Flying Mechanic are you on it?
Howz the 72?
Seeing as CX does not operate A320s I think the important part of the advert is "(please do not contact Cathay Pacific directly regarding these positions)".
I have seen similar trawls for pilots that quote one airline then when you sign with the agent you find you are working for another. If you want to work for CX, call or write direct. It's the only way CX recruit.
1st Dec 2005, 12:43
Good point Moosp
Perhaps this OUGHT to be brought to CX's attention?
Don't worry about that. There's a management clerk who scans these forums daily for dis-information. Anything really dodgey they forward to the legal department. It's all covered, as you would expect from an organisation like CX.
5th Dec 2005, 21:24
A quick google found the business in Auckland that is supposedly a leasing company.... well actually it is a web hosting company fax number...weird and dodgy.
Level 3, 60 Cook Street
Since it is a web hosting company maybe it is a job for flying microsoft flight sim!!
6th Dec 2005, 03:19
shouldnt you be studying for your 2nd interview!? ;)
give them a call and find out what game they're playing! its an 0800 number, so you dont even have to use the bosses phone!
The advertisement for A320 Direct Entry contract F/O's is probably correct because of:
1. Qualified DE A330/A340 F/O's would not come to CX for the salary offered.
2. It takes as much ground school/sim/line training to CCQ a DE A320 F/O to the A330 as would train a DE A330 F/O to CX SOP's.
3. A320 DE contract F/O's WILL come to CX to get an A330 (and possibly A340) endorsement and wide body time. Possible offer of employment after contract completion?
Why is the employment of DE F/O's being considered?
The CX training system can't handle the sector training requirement of S/O to F/O at this time of rapid expansion.
DE F/O's require less training sectors than S/O to F/O upgrade.
One reason for the low number of available training sectors is too few Training Captains. CX required a large number of experienced Training Captains to retire at age 55 over the past 3 years.
Another reason for the lack of available training sectors is because of the current high command failure rate. Some of the reasons for the high command failure rate are:
1. In 1994 CX introduced 'B' scale salaries and experienced jet F/O's stopped coming to CX for the lower salary offered.
2. The majority of S/O's joining CX since 1994 only had general aviation experience. These pilots are now rating command courses.
3. The CX Cadet Program started in 1989 and ex-cadets only had limited flying experience before joining CX. These pilots are now rating command courses.
4. The CX training of F/O's towards command, during their time as F/O, has not addressed the lower experience level of 'B' scale or ex-cadet command candidates. In fact this training has changed little since 1994. There have been no command training sims, command line training or command workshops for F/O's prior to their command course.
If you employ pilots of a lower experience level then an airline must be prepared to spend more money on pre-command training, prior to the pilot's command course.
It would be very unfortunate (and unfair) if CX intend to recruit DE F/O's and bypass qualified S/O's for A330 F/O training.
Would CX retain DE F/O's at the end of their contact (offer employment at the bottom of the seniority list)and further delay S/O to F/O upgrades?
6th Dec 2005, 13:15
Mate, wot a load of crap.
“Qualified DE A330/A340 F/O's would not come to CX for the salary offered”. There are truckloads of guys willing to take this postion.
‘In 1994 CX introduced 'B' scale salaries and experienced jet F/O's stopped coming to CX for the lower salary offered”
“The CX training of F/O's towards command, during their time as F/O, has not addressed the lower experience level of 'B' scale or ex-cadet command candidates. In fact this training has changed little since 1994. There have been no command training sims, command line training or command workshops for F/O's prior to their command course”
Are you kidding me. So you reckon after flying jets for 11 years they are not up to standard to swap seats. How the hell do most other airlines manage. Sounds like CX have re written bernouli’’s theory just like KA have.
There must be something in the water in honky town cos flying an airbus aint that tricky.
6th Dec 2005, 14:27
If (big IF ) there was something in this it would open a bit of a viper's nest as the DE freight F/O's might have something to say about it. There again they could always raise the freight F/O pay to match the DE F/O pay on the pax fleet (I won't even go into the minefield of HKG allowances!). Then the frightner captains might want to maintain the Capt-F/O differential re: pay. Bit of a dog's breakfast if you ask me.
What is an inescapable fact is that it must be getting harder to forecast crewing levels accurately given the imminent expansion. Something will have to be done.
The truth lies out there somewhere.
7th Dec 2005, 02:06
You sound like an A-Scalar beating his chest as the almighty experienced and B-Scalers are the inexperienced, underpaid, you get what you pay for, pilots. Firstly, A-Scalars did not oppose the introduction of B-Scales as the company gave a meager pay raise for A Scalars for the introduction, but that is another issue.
You believe the failures rates are due to inexperienced B-Scalers. There are enough A-Scalars out there that failed their commands (the old 400 fleet manager for one).
I dare say that the problem is not the pilots but the Cathay System that was introduced over the last several years ( maybe due to the industrial situation).
We now have a Review Board made up of Management Pilots. After all the training (NOT) is complete and the Check PASSED by a Senior Check Pilot, the Review Board has a look at your file. If you have a minor lapse anywhere on the file and any one person on the Review Board does not like it, then 1) All Command Training will cease, 2) You will require extra sectors, another Check and Review 3) Another Check and Review.
There is not much Training in Cathay Pacific when you get to F/O level for Pre Command. Some Training Captains don’t really know how to train and just check the candidate does it correctly (the first time) during there Command Training. If the Trainee does something wrong and the Training Captain writes a rather large narrative in the Trainees Electronic Report (which the Review Board will use as ammunition at a later date) and may or may not TRAIN him/her on how to do it correctly.
Since the introduction of the Review Board, the Training & Checking Pilots has lost all power. If an STC passes the check, whether Command or QL, it does not mean you passed. If some Training Captain has written has written the Bible in your Electronic File about something trivial or something expected at the beginning of you training, you are done. The person on the Review Board may have never flown with the candidate but feels he needs to make a judgement from what is written.
So CPX, it is not the candidates, it is the way the Trainers are writing up reports about trivial things that should be mentioned in debriefing but not mentioned in the report (Minor details discussed in debrief). If the candidate does not pass the check, well that’s a different story.
In the judgement of Most Checkers, the candidate has passed all checks, only to be crushed by one person on the review board. Sounds fair to me don’t you think or is it still an A versus B Scale thingy.
It seems the Review Board has “Lost All Confidence” in the Check and Training staff at Cathay.
This reply is off the original topic, however..........
I mentioned 1994 and the introduction of 'B' scales to give background to why the CX command failure rate has recently risen quite dramatically. 1994-2005 = 11years. 2-3 years as S/O plus 8-9 years as F/O = 11 years. Coincidence ? Not.
If an airline employs pilots of a lower experience level then that airline must be prepared to spend more money on pre-command training, prior to the pilot's command course. Sitting in the seat during cruise for 6 long haul sectors/month is not adequate pre-command training. There needs to be a structured program with assessment, PRIOR to the command course.
The CX training system of detailed report writing has not changed over the years. Only the medium of paper reports changing to ERAS. The command training 'board' reviewing trainees progress has not changed either. Many command trainees have had less than glowing initial reports but have made steady progress up to the FLC (3-bar) and have subsequently been given the nod by the review board.
I would suggest that rather than talk about how good the post 94 employed trainees are (c/w pre-94) and how bad the establised command review system is, that discussion be directed towards how the training of F/O's towards command (BEFORE the command course), could be improved.
If you employ the right people and give them the right training then you will get the right result.
8th Dec 2005, 09:07
Perhaps the degradation in experience level has more to do with DE SO instead of FO.
B-scales would seem to be an unfortunate and incidental coincidence. The application of which had little bearing on experience levels - to suggest otherwise is an affront to these professional aviators. Yes I'm fortunate to be an A scaler, but don't confuse the scales with ability!!!;)
Mr Bloggs, I agree there are training challenges to be resolved. You raise some interesting issues: I think I can answer some of your concerns in the same way - blah blah blah blaH bla .....
On the original thread: I have absolutely no idea what the A320 recruitment ad could mean. However, I do ask the conspiracy theorests what they make of Cathay currently employing A320 qualified people on the B744? SO and FO. Maybe this is part of a cunning plan to test the feasability of fast tracking from A320 to B777!
Who knows? then again, who cares?
Da Spleen :ok:
8th Dec 2005, 09:20
The reality is that most of the command failures aren’t from any direct entry group. The largest proportion of failures over the last two years have been from the cadet ranks. Most direct entry S/O’s have considerable experience whether it be other major airlines, regional airlines, GA or the military.
9th Dec 2005, 10:15
Just getting back to the original post and the reason this thread was started...
Is there any more light to be shed on this?
Is CX (via AINCO) looking at taking A320 guys and girls to CCQ on their own fleet for a period of time... perhaps indefinately?
Does anyone have any information regarding that?
As has been mentioned - this could be a real Pandoras Box and a suprise coming from a Company like CX that has a pretty good history of sticking to Policy regarding Seniority etc...
It seems strange to use the theory that to take a 320 pilot off the street and train him/her to CX SOP's, inc a CCQ is less hassle and much easier than taking a 2-3 year CX SO and putting him/her in the RHS as an FO...
My, this Industry can be full of suprises ey?
Never a dull moment!!
Can anyone elaborate?
9th Dec 2005, 11:00
It would never happen, for a start the day the first DE FO on the pax fleet joined all three hundred SOs would instantly get bypass pay,,, not a cheap solution.
It sounds like a rishworth type company maybe getting a feel for whos out there, if there is a CX link it could possibly be for Air HK freighters.
Also why would CX mainline trust some others do do their recruitment, they have a large office with a number of experienced people doing the recruitment, and on the whole they do a good job.. maybe with the exception of hiring Wanchai Warrier
9th Dec 2005, 16:55
Well done !!
At least we are back on the topic.
9th Dec 2005, 21:20
Bloggs. There are chips on your shoulders the size of mountains. You are an idiot. But feel free to keep proving the point....;)
9th Dec 2005, 23:59
The way CX selects command candidates has not changed. The way they select who passes has changed.
Ali, it is hard to face reality and it hurts.
The 320 jobs are for Dragon if it is a valid advert. Checking the waters I believe. Maybe seeing what is out there in case of a Mass Resignation or a Mass Termination.
10th Dec 2005, 02:34
Crap.................the 320 advert is by a company run by an EX CX Employee called Cathay Pacific Aviation Leasing or some such which deals in aircraft leasing and crew supply....................has an office in Kowloon................Often gets mistaken for CX. The guy himself says the choice of name was a mistake but too late now.........................
mass resignation from KA....testing the waters......... Actually I was talking to Elvis the other day about who shot JFK, and he said they still have his body along with some little grey men in area51...........................
10th Dec 2005, 06:52
Bloggs. Keep swinging that shovel..! (the idiot meter is pegged full deflection). One normally has to pay for entertainment this good...:p
10th Dec 2005, 07:09
It may well be Cathay Pacific Aviation Leasing but the advert definitely says Cathay Pacific Airways.
So, either its a typo or the leasing company is deliberately leading people astray.
Quote: Cathay Pacific AIRWAYS (though AINCO Leasing)
Lastly, having done AEA/FF last week....we were told that CX is actively considering DEFOs on the pax fleet. No decision has been made, nor is one pending at this time.
Perhaps we'll have to wait until negotiations for RP06! ;)
10th Dec 2005, 07:49
CX has made the decision on DE F/O's for the PAX fleet and the decision is yes. Recruiting for these slots on the Airbus and 777 at first will begin very early in the new year. Don't expect a JFO upgrade anytime soon...
10th Dec 2005, 08:29
You are suggesting that CX will do away with seniority?
Will these DEFO's pax be on a 'D' scale?
Has this been run by the union? Don't think it has much chance of getting through.
Plenty of CX S/O's with plenty of experience to be FO's and have been in CX system for a while now, think the company would/should consider them first.
If they are keen on doing DEFO pax as you say, then just do away with S/O's and employ all new joiners as F/O's. They would probably do it on a lower payscale for first 2 years (maybe 2nd year S/O pay)
10th Dec 2005, 08:52
CX won't do away with seniority. Current S/O's will retain their number, obviously higher than that of a DE F/O and when the S/O is upgraded he/she will jump the DE F/O. A current S/O will still have a command slot before a DE F/O.
Don't know what pay scale they'll be on. Possibly a Freighter or an S/O scale with some sort of housing allowance. Again I'm not sure.
Doesn't need to be run by the union, the company can do it as per the current CoS, bypass pay will have to be paid though (3 months after the DoJ of the F/O). Whether the union likes it or not, the company can do it without even telling them.
Plenty of S/O's with the experience I agree, however, as per the training programme, 60 sectors for an S/O unrestricted versus 20 or 30 for a DE F/O, clears up the training program when trainers are in short supply.
Lastly, maybe the company will do that. However, S/O's and F/O's when employed by the company have different experience levels, just as an S/O is recruited with less (or different) experience than an F/O on the Cargo fleet. Freighter guys generally have (medium to heavy) jet time whereas S/O guys normally have medium turbine or piston time. Makes a difference when recruiting and as far as CX is concerned makes a difference to training.
10th Dec 2005, 10:12
Well an S/O on Full FO pay, Bring it on! Don't think the company will like that, they hate paying bypass pay, but I guess it is cheaper than paying for aircraft that have no one to fly them.
Will watch with interest as to when these guys start.
10th Dec 2005, 10:49
Hope it's not true but guess we'll have to wait and see. The SO thing is dragging out to 4 years as it is-not sure how they can expect guys to go for longer than that!? 4 Years is already ridiculous. All the while ones skills and abilities are deteriorating-but don't let it affect your sims lest you get a 3.
Maybe it'll be retirement age 60 or we have to take Direct Entry FO?
10th Dec 2005, 14:58
CX has for a number of years been considering doing away with the rank of SO. There is no secret in this fact. I don’t know what any add said on the said web sight, but CX still hasn’t made a decision on this, period so any speculation to the contrary is purely that, speculation. They are still feeling the water so to speak and weighing up the long term benefits against the short term financial pain, i.e. bypass pay, extra training cost and so on. The last I heard (one week ago) we were still looking at recruiting a large number of direct entry S/O’s over the next year. The other consideration is what to do with our cadets. Unlike KA, CX doesn’t have the sectors to fast track them into the right seat after they get back from Adelaide. Our operation doesn’t lend itself to putting brand new cadets in the right seat.
On another note though I find it very interesting that in late November, CX’s recruitment team visited their counterparts at EK in Dubai. This was either to find out how and where they were recruiting their 390+ direct entry FO’s they are after or to see how they were going in recruiting flight attendants out of Hong Kong before they commence their PEK service.
PS: I never saw the add on the noted web sight so can’t verify what it said but what I can say is that the add is no longer there. There is an add about a week later though for the same leasing company for direct entry F/O’s in Qatar on the A320.
11th Dec 2005, 00:22
As if CX need to test the waters on how many potential candidates out there. they have over two thousand CVs sitting on level 6 most of which have serious time, including jet.
CX dont operate A320s, so whats the point of specifying them, you cant CCQ a juy from an A320 to one of the 36 777s on order.
Bypass pay, its not 3 months after the DE FO starts its the day the first guy starts and it is payed to all the SOs first.
Finally it is not nessacarily 60 sectors to upgrade a JFO, there are 20, 40, 60, and 80 sector checks any of which if passed sucessfully can be counted as the check to line. And no ground course if its on type, any new joiner will be put through a full type ground school and sims. Its the CX way.
Maybe for a CX lite or HK Cargo but not for CX mainline, and the ad even said that.
11th Dec 2005, 00:34
CX Conditions of Service
10.5 In any case of recruitment of First Officers by Direct Entry, other than in accordance with 6.2 (not applicable), the next most senior Second Officer suitable for promotion will receive First Officer Bypass Pay in the form of Junior First Officer's Salary on a one for one basis commencing three (3) months after the date of joining of the First Officer recruited by Direct Entry. The payment of First Officer Bypass Pay will cease when the Second Officer receiving Bypass Pay commences Junior First Officer training.
Next time have a look at the books before correcting someone who is right.
11th Dec 2005, 06:11
I stand corrected.
12th Dec 2005, 05:45
What's the go there 404 Titan? Can you peer into your speculative crystal ball for a minute? I am awaiting a start date as an S/O - are they proposing to call new joiners F/O's, let them do the minimum takeoffs and landings but keep them on the current S/O package? Or does the abolition of S/O's as we know it mean they will employ DEFOs on the "normal" JFO package?
While I'm here, with the new order announced, do the CX old hands here think they will recruit on the 777 for DESO (as they have done in small numbers in 2005), or will 2006 be business as usual with A340/B744 slots?
Cheers from a soon ex CX-wannabe!