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wanchai warrior
24th Nov 2005, 14:03
anybody knows if a pay rise is on the agenda of our union at all??

I can't remeber ever receiving one, it must be years that we did not get one. despite all the moaning about oil prize, industry problems, etc , fact is we are making loads of money, and effectively we are getting less every year !!

I think it is a clear strategy of our management to dramatize the situation to keep our expectations low, truth is the shareholder are probably extremely happy about the current market situation.

the greatest joke is the budget plan, with record revenues still " below expectations"...

dogleg
24th Nov 2005, 14:24
A good question. But, if you were in the association, you wouldn't need to post your question on this forum, would you?

cpdude
24th Nov 2005, 15:04
Dogleg,

That may be true but what have they or should I say you done to increase membership past the 50% mark lately?

I think it's pretty sad that a Union cannot collectively agree on a strategy to increase membership. They made the "ban-joiners" out to be the worst of the worst but now all is forgotten. But, the ones that left the Union because they did not agree with the radical nature are not welcomed back even though some measure of sanity has returned.

Honestly, I think there are 50-100 really spiteful and angry members that prevent the membership from growing.

...and what about ASL? Why shouldn't they join the AOA?

Sorry to vent but your reply sparked a nerve.

frankg
24th Nov 2005, 20:26
The AOA isn't a union, it's a video club... without the videos.

Oh yeah and some marginally cheap insurance.

cpdude
24th Nov 2005, 21:02
That may be so frankg, but it's our only opportunity for a collective voice and sadly it comprises of less than 50% of all pilots flying for Cathay Pacific.:(

Mr. Bloggs
25th Nov 2005, 01:32
Why should Cathay Pacific give you a raise?

Your salaries/benefits are better than any other airline in Asia. Job is secure, more than I can say for any North American carrier and some European carriers.

Even if you had 100% membership, what are you going to do?

BTW, you can join the HKAOA at anytime, no one is stopping you. Just pay the joining fee.

Cpt. Underpants
25th Nov 2005, 01:36
cpdude, so now it's "our" only chance...

What happened to your position...

Not at all old chap......just one of the few, I guess, that realize how fortunate I am working at Cathay Pacific. The problem with Cathay pilots is they can't get over the past. Those days are gone so get over it and get on with life!

and

It's very unfortunate for the freighter pilots that the AOA is an A Scale union that gives scraps to the B scale guys and actually works against the interests of the CX Freighter guys. It's also unfortunate that the CXF team cannot negotiate directly with management as we feel we do not have any representation at the moment.

and..?

If you have joined the AOA, good for you.

cpdude
25th Nov 2005, 16:06
Cpt. Underpants,

My position on the AOA is dependant on the Executive, attitude and direction of the AOA. Does that not sound reasonable to you? Do you support the same political party you did 5/10/15 years ago back home or has your position changed over the years as so did the party. I'm sorry but I don't cast my opinions or positions in concrete and as situations change, so do I.

Thanks for your interest of my current and past positions. :}

Mr. Bloggs,

A cost of living increase is not a raise but just a measure to maintain what you already have. Yes the current salaries and benefits are better but only because others have dropped not because ours climbed. In NA airlines raise and lower their salaries and benefits like the tide with the economy where Cathay is steady as she goes.


If we had 100% membership then we wouldn't have 20-25% of the pilots deciding on Base Policies etc. for 100% of the pilots.

"BTW, you can join the HKAOA at anytime, no one is stopping you. Just pay the joining fee."

For some that means paying almost 5 years of back dues...and that's not going to happen! I know, I know your going to jump back with the "so what" comment but don't bother, I've heard that drivel before and that is why we have the current situation with the AOA. Yup, it's all your fault!:8

Mr. Bloggs
25th Nov 2005, 23:32
Cost of living. So what. Why would Cathay give you more money? Because you deserve it? You a better pilot? What is it?

You still get the job done, who cares?

Remember, you quit the union. Stop complaining. You gave up your position to guide your COS, so live with it.

If not, join the union and change it.

cpdude
25th Nov 2005, 23:45
Actually Mr. Bloggs, I was trying to consider others with a cost of living increase. Since I am very close to retirement, I couldn't give a rats ***! But since the pilot association you represent is so wonderfully content with their pay, maybe Cathay should make you work harder for it? The door can swing both ways buddy!

...and what about those ASL guys that negotiate deals outside of the AOA which yes is negotiated for CXF pilots too?

I guess the AOA doesn't steer the helm at ALL COS meetings do they?:p

Tornado Ali
26th Nov 2005, 00:41
...let's just keep a few FACTS straight shall we..?

The annual increments are woefully inadequate to 'keep up' with the annual increase in cost of living in most of the base areas and HK.

The company cynically destroyed the value of a basing in Australia, by firstly stating that the new pay deal would 'take into account the 23AG tax benefit', then, when the Australian Govt cancelled said benefit, CX management decided to ignore the fact that the pay deal should have been increased back to a level to reflect the loss of the benefit. What should be good for the goose...should be good for the...

The USAB pay deal was IMPOSED by the company, based on a basket of US airline salaries (and they insisted on including TWA, with their artificially low number). Since 99 (when USAB was implemented), most US carriers increased thier pilots pay by an average of almost 35%. This doesn't take into account their more favourable retirement age, medical and pension benefits (..before you mention what has happened to UA and DL pensions, AA still has a biggie). Starting in about 03, many of these same airlines have cut pilot pay...by about 35%. Therefore, their pay is STILL about the same now as it was in 99....and ours has not moved AT ALL in that same period. Basically, there is no net difference between salary scales between 99 and now ( I would however like to see the USAB pilots be paid the extra salary that the US carrier pilots recieved over the past 6 years, not to mention the rest of the base areas).

Europe. Even with much more difficult circumstances to cope with, most European airlilnes have NOT cut their staffs pay. Air France, KLM, Lufthansa, BA have ALL maintained or increased the pay of their pilots, and improved their guaranteed pensions. There is NO talk of attacking their employees to help cope with the difficult enviornment. It is interesting to note that Rod Eddington has left BA with the praises of his staff ringing in his ears, as he smartly decided to MANAGE instead of taking the easy route and treating his own employees as the enemy. THAT is a record that is honourable and commendable. BA is a better airline for it.

HK. The only thing that has changed is that Turnbull has left. No one notices. No one cares. Perhaps the present management will reflect on the fact that after 12 years of attacking the value and respect of the most loyal group of staff in the airline, they should perhaps focus on our competitors, our product and our expansion. We would like to help...but don't try growing this airline at our expense.

ps. let's all stop bickering amongst ourselves. Focus on the real issues.

Mr. Bloggs
26th Nov 2005, 08:35
Union or no union, there will be no pay raises.

Cpdude, I wouldn’t pay the dues either. Waste of money.

Mr. Pratt will not come in with his wallet leading the way. If anything, pay will be status quo and productivity will be increased. Really doesn’t matter what has happened elsewhere.

Tornado Ali
26th Nov 2005, 15:27
Mr. Bloggs. You're a fine example of the strong character and deep integrity found amongst many of the aircrew at CX. No, really...:rolleyes:

cpdude
26th Nov 2005, 16:43
Mr. Bloggs,

Cost of living. So what. Why would Cathay give you more money? Because you deserve it? You a better pilot? What is it?

Yes I am a better pilot! With more experience (not only hours but VNAV/GPS approaches, systems knowledge, ETC), more training, more awareness through programs FDAP etc. I believe I am a better pilot now than 5 years ago. But, I'm getting paid LESS! Why should that be?

Mr. Bloggs
26th Nov 2005, 23:20
Like most CX pilots, you don’t have the balls to fight for it.

Good luck on that pay raise.

water check
12th Dec 2005, 21:57
Just found out that NetJets pays their BBJ (737) Captains $229K USD per year. That puts them at or more than nearly all of the A scalers in this company. FO's make almost 170K year on the BBJ. Perhaps our management would like to ponder that....!!