Who's insane us or the boss???

[Flingingwings]

Hi Folks,

The company I work for have a policy that a few of the current staff think is madness, and I was just looking to see if 'it's us' or whether this regime is common place.

Company uses two types of staff. Employed PAYE and a couple of self employed contractors for AOC and Instructional work. Staff are purely paid by the flying hour with no retainer.

Current policy is that ALL staff on their rostered working days/available days will be at the office from 0830 till 1730. This is regardless of whether there is any work booked in or whether the weather is good enough to fly.

I have been with this company a while and accept that the industry demands some free working and very long hours and I have no problem with this. But it seems lunacy to keep your staff sat around all day doing and earning nothing. Management response apart from tutting when you 'cap in hand' ask to leave is that pilots should always be around in case of 'walk in work' or potential students beacuse that's the nature of our industry. We're trying to suggest that one pilot could cover this on flyable days but that on poor weather days our time could be better used getting on with other things.

We feel undervalued and asking for the time off is always awkward given the managers sigh/ look at their watch/ company line :( Is there some reason we are missing that prevents an Ops person being able to work on their own?????

Anybody else have to work like this?
I've seen very little walk in work and don't believe that on poor weather days potential customers will have a problem with us calling them back.

Any thoughts??????

[Genghis the Engineer]

So do you just sit around drinking coffee?

Or do you help keep the place tidy, offer to help the groundcrew with their maintainance tasks, help clean the aeroplanes, brush up your procedures, organise groundschool, read through POH to make sure you've not forgotten anything....

That said, the combination of paid by the hour only, and strict working hours seems a tad inconsistent.

?

[Say again s l o w l y]

So you'll sit there for an entire day and not get paid for it? Are you all nuts?

All of you should just get together and walk out when it's crappy or force the tight s*ds to at least pay you for your time.

I can sort of see where the company is coming from, but I think they are taking the p*ss somewhat. If the day is absolutely rubbish and there is no possibility of any of you flying, then go home, you are self-employed anyway.

The industry does NOT demand 'free' working, well at least not my little bit of it, you need to show some commitment, but this is taking the mickey.

Go and find somewhere that will treat you properly, there are plenty of jobs going at the moment.....

One last thing, does this company pay ridiculously high wages when you do fly? If so then you may just have to put up with it and quit moaning, but if they are stingy there as well, then just bail.

[hugh flung_dung]

It sounds very odd - how can they insist that you "attend" without paying you?
There are three options as always: accept it, negotiate, or vote with your feet. Personally I would go for the second and break down the us/them barrier that seems like it may be present - such a barrier doesn't help any of the stakeholders and belongs to the sixties.
Make sure you maintain a positive attitude (avoid wingeing); some of the things you may want to propose are a standby rota system or attendance pay.

HFD

[Flingingwings]

Ghengis,

Give us some credit. We keep the aircraft and hangar clean. No maintenance on site, but we do complete the mid maintence schedule oil changes. We've standardised groundschool between us for all the ppl lessons and also 99.9% of the ppl theory groundschool. As I said no probs with some unpaid work, but we could better use our time than sitting idle.

Wages are normal. On some days of the week there are 5 pilots at work. We've tried suggesting that a rota/on call system would be benefical but thats allegedly too difficult to manage :confused:

In common with most places lessons are booked back to back so we work hard through the summer, days well in excess of the hours specified. What we're asking for is some leeway now the winter months are upon us.

If theres nothing to be done it is quite normal for us to sit, natter, drink coffee, read pprune, clean our cars.

Do any of you operate with sensible poor wx days policies? Or are we asking for/expecting too much?

[Genghis the Engineer]

It did no harm to ask - I've visited a few flying schools where on a foul weather day you'll see several FIs drinking coffee in an untidy office next door to a hangar with a solitary technician desperately trying to get a stack of jobs done before the weather improves.

As you say, there's little moral imperative to being there if you aren't going to get paid!

G

[loftustb]

Genghis

Do you work feverishly all day at someone else's beck and call earning nothing, as you sugest FIs should?

[Genghis the Engineer]

It often feels like it - I certainly work around 50% above the hours I'm actually paid for. I'm not sure if this is called slavery or professionalism.

No, I accept that if you are required to be there, you should expect to be paid. But then if you are paid to be there, it's not unreasonable to make best use of the time.

G

"So long as they pretend to pay us, we'll continue to pretend to work" (saying, former USSR).

[foxmoth]

I would have thought the minimum legal wage woud come in here:uhoh:

[PPRuNe Towers]

For officially employed, PAYE employees there was an important test case a couple of years ago.

Some parts of the Burger King chain were demanding staff sit around unpaid until called to service peak demand. The judgement was unequivocal and a search engine will reveal all. If expected to be on the premises they were to be paid for that time.

Regards
Rob

[mad_jock]

Its another reason why schools don't like having you on PAYE.

The instructors at cabair i belive have to clock in and out because of the min wage rules. Also one school in scotland nearly got burnt for it as well. Now all the instructors get sent home as soon as the day is finished or wx out. And the admin staff and salaried Instructors look after the shop.

Good news is that if you write to the minimum wage unit for your area and they investigate and find your employer is taking the piss the wages will be back dated to when you started. So if you were contracted for 8 hours a day 5 days a week you will get back dated pay for the period of employment to top up what you actually have been payed to date.

Another thing to check is the income support unit you can claim support with your rent etc. Which is a back door method of the low wage unit finding out.

Buts its swing and roundabouts during the summer you can be earning well over the minimum wage but during the winter not.
It could screw everything up and cause you to be laid off over winter.

MJ

[Send Clowns]

Mad jock has good advice, and you might even find that the "self-emplyed" pilots were not to be considered self-employed. The definition is complicated, and flight instructors are on a bit of a concession anyway, but expecting you to be on site without you being able to invoice for it might swing things. However wait until you are about to leave voluntarily if you want to rely on that, they might not be too happy - they are liable for isues regarding self employment / PAYE status, not the (self) employee. They could be in some trouble with the tax man, as well as having to pay you minimum wage, backdated ...

[J.A.F.O.]

Let's not cloud the issue. They're taking the p!ss.

Leave as soon as you can and do everything within your legal power to make sure that they lose money from your decision.

Get everyone to walk out on a beautiful day.

Allow students to find out you are now working at a reasonable school.

Any of the work that you did on the groundschool is probably yours and not theirs as you weren't in their employ whilst devising it.

Whoever they are should be ashamed/fined/shut down or all three.

Yes, I've been there, yes I've done it, no, not for long.

[Craggenmore]

mad_jock

The instructors at Cabair I belive have to clock in and out because of the min wage rules.

They do indeed clock in and out but I don't understand why. Can you help?

For example; If an instructor doesn't fly for a week due to bad weather, do they get paid the minimum wage to make up for this lack of flying (as money wont have come in for a whole week.)

Or, do Cabair insist they must clock out to avoid having to pay the instructor?

:confused:

[effortless]

The Burger King judgement is relevant. If you are working a "Zero Hours Contract" and have to turn in for work without pay, then you have recourse to law. A ZHC is where your hours are not guarunteed. These are quite common, supply teachers are a case in point. An employer can no longer expect you to turn in and hang around on the offchance. Since 1995, you also have employment rights and benefit rights.

Google "zero hours contracts" (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Zero+Hours+Contract&btnG=Search&meta=cr%3DcountryUK%7CcountryGB)

[mad_jock]

They do indeed clock in and out but I don't understand why. Can you help?

I beieve although its been many years since I spoke to a cab air instructor.

Basically they were operating exactly as mentioned above with the instructors expected to be in while not getting payed. The min wages unit got to find out about it and they had to change there operating practises.

The only difference is that now that they have to clock in and clock out. If there is no work the managment can decided to send them home ie clock out. So the hours at home won't go towards the average for the min wage calculation. Its a thing called a zero hour contract as mentioned previously. Your not getting payed but it does allow you to go and work in say Tesco's which on the build up to xmas is pretty solid work when ever you turn up.

But it all really depends on your contract. If it says you are contracted for 8:30 to 5:30 ( 1 hour for lunch)for 5 days a week you should be earning an equivalent salary to £10,504 a year or £875 a month.
But there is some averaging allowed over the year. This will go up next yeat to £11128 and £927 a month.

There was also a test case of some security types at the Dome in London and also standby vechile recovery on the motorway. Where people where expected to remain on standby for long periods and when the pay got worked out it was less than the min wage for the time spent at work/standby. Both cases it was awarded

Unfortunatly most flying schools seem to think that part of your pay is the value added bonus of being able to put hours in your log book.

Watch it though there are some very dubious practises go on at some schools and the more they try and shaft you at work the more likely they are to go to great lengths to try and get you when you leave. The favourit just now is to refuse to give a reference for the security check for your airside pass. This basically stops you flying and is a complete pain in the tits to get sorted out depending how much contacts you have (ie if you have a friend who is a police man he can sign the whole period off no probs). Another one is to give a poor reference and its a bitch to prove . With holding final pay and only releasing it when the small claims court stuff comes through.

Unfortunatly the peak in airline recruiting occurs at the same point as the season gets into gear instructing. And generally instructors and airlines don't give a toss for notice periods. So quite often the schools are left in the lurch when experenced instructors leave with sometimes a couple of weeks notice. Usuaully about the time the CFI is due to go away on a skiing holiday, unrestricted instructors are like rocking hourse poo for starting short notice. Then there are heaps of hassel trying to get supervision of a restricted instructor so the CFI can go away.


So it all boils down to a them and us attitude by the schools managment. They think they are doing you a favour by just letting you sit in a plane and think its acceptable to treat you as a slave. They will quote that all the instructors in the past were crap because we gave them 1000hours and the bugger took a sickie on the tuesday and started his type rating on the monday we lost x thounds of pounds in lost buisness etc etc. And the instructor just wants to have a life and not be a slave.

MJ

edited for a link

http://www.lowpay.gov.uk/lowpay/useful_links.shtml

[Flingingwings]

Cheers Folks,

Was beginning to think (albeit only very slightly) that it was us who were insane.

JAFO : had reached that decision already.
Working on the others :E

[mad_jock]

Flingwings I wouldn't lower myself to thier levels by staging a mass walk out and trying to make them loose money.

Its not worth it. Have more pride in yourself and just hand your notice in and say its for personal reasons and get a better job.

MJ

[Flingingwings]

MJ,

Sorry, should have been a bit more specific..........

Realise they are taking the piss. I intend to leave, and will cite private reasons.

Others are also beginning to think similarly. No mass walk out. What they do is purely down to them.

Oh, and whats a lunch break??? I've been told for the past 12 months that these are too complicated to factor into a flying job and thats simply what the industry has to expect in order to run properly:confused:

'Tis a real shame. I really thought this place was different and I've worked my bits off for the last 12 months.

Almost soul destroying. Thankfully I have the option to widen my skills base and hopefully that will open some new doors :)

[mad_jock]

errrr I was only saying that the big dramatics were maybe a bad idea. In no way did i think you were telling fibs.

There is no way you should work under those conditions and by the sounds of it a complaint to the low wage unit is more than justified.

BUt at least you have been warned though about them trying to shaft you on your leaving pay. I think in Private flyers there were a couple of Legal types who have in the past sorted out a threatening letter for free for an instructor in the same situation.

MJ

[hugh flung_dung]

Most of the suggestions so far just perpetuate the us/them barrier, why not try and deal with the barrier rather than building it higher. If you don't get anywhere you can still vote with your feet.
Talk to the management, explain your grievances, get them to explain the operating situation, suggest positive ways forward, try to build a team. It's not in anyone's interest to have a high staff turnover and it can only help if everyone understands the overall picture from every viewpoint.

HFD

[Say again s l o w l y]

The "Them and Us" barrier is not usually created by the instructors, especially when certain schools see an FI as a necessary evil rather than a vital member of the team.

I very much doubt whether any olive branches would work in this situation, but it's worth a try, at least you would have done your best to resolve the situation. If they don't respond, then f**k 'em.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Having some experience of such (industrial relation) matters, if ALL the instructors as a group ask politely, something might happen. If you collectively threaten, then you're just likely to cause an entrenched position in the management. If one person only asks, they'll probably get isolated, sidelined, or "eased out".

If you are going to collectively threaten, for goodness sake all join an appropriate trade union and get them behind you.

G

[funfly]

I have been employing up to 100 people doing variable hours for the last 14 years (not in aviation). Two things are important.

1. Nowadays the 'self employed' status is not always valid, particularly in conditions where an employer is the 'main' employer of a person. It does not automatically allow avoidance of NI, tax or any employment legislation issues and employing staff on a 'self employed' basis cannot be used by an employer to evade these. The relevence of this to an employer is that they may have a responsibility for payment of income tax and NI even if staff are classified as 'self employed'. The relevence to a 'self employed' person is that they may still have the full protection of employment legislation including the right relating to unfair dismissal.

2. Where an employee is requested to attend for any period of time (and this includes being 'on call' even if this is in the employees own home) then at least the minimum wage must be payed for the full period of time requested.

I say may above because situations can vary but there are important issues to anyone who uses the 'self employed' method of paying staff, especially if this is done as a way of avoiding tax, NI or employment law issues.

[porridge]

Flingingwings seems to work for a fairly industry standard FTO. There is a place nestled between the Luton and Stanstead zones that would make his current employer to be pure Arcadia by comparison!