question about logging IFR (merged)

[machlimter99]

In my logbook I have two columns- IFR and actual IF.

Should I write in the IFR column all hours done under a IFR flight plan ONLY- block to block???? How about hours done in IMC but not done under a IFR flight plan??? Should these go in the IFR column aswell????

[5150]

Never come across a logbook like that.

If you're flying in IMC, you're obviously flying in IFR conditions, so log that as such.

You don't need to be under an IFR Flight Plan to be able to log IFR. eg - If you're going somewhere VFR and the weather closes in, you then become IFR, so if you're really keen for those hours, you'd note the time you went IFR and log that.

As for a bog standard public transport flight, I wouldn't log IFR time blocks to blocks, after all, you don't taxi under IFR conditions. I only log airborne to landing times as IFR.

IF, to me, would suggest Exercise 18. ie Flying with sole reference to the instruments, but this could be interpreted several ways I'd imagine.

Hope this clears up some of it.

[-IBLB-]

In my logbook I have two columns- IFR and actual IF.

Could be the american thing. American logbooks have those two columns aswell (usually actual instrument, and simulated iinstrument). They only log the time that you are actually in the clouds, or using a view limiting device.
A little different from the european thing.

-IBLB-

[compressor stall]

It could be a regional thing, but there seems to me some blurring of the definitiions of IF and IFR as set out by a poster above.

IF is Instrument Flight. i.e. the time spent piloting the aircraft looking solely at the instruments.

IFR are the instrument flight rules. The rules underwhich you may conduct a flight and pilot the aircraft by sole reference to the ground. (i.e. you can enter cloud!)

a flight from point A to point B. It's a 5.7 hour flight and you punch through some stratus on the way up for 2-3 minutes, then you're in alto whilst holding for 20 minutes, the rest of the trip is clear of cloud.

You put .4 in the IF column and 5.7 in the IFR column.

It is common for higher level GA jobs (as exist in this country, but probably there are not too many of in the UK) to as for a minimum of say 500 hours under the IFR and 200 hours actual IF.

That means 500 hours of flying aircraft with all the rules and procedures of IFR flight (ie position reporting, radar ident etc) and 200 hours actually in cloud.

For this reason I have a column in my electronic logbook of IFR flights, in addition to the IF column.

CS

[Bumz_Rush]

when I cross the atlantic I would like to think I was on Instruments and not Visual.....

Perhaps also if I am on top, at FL470 (and tracking my airway, in Europe) I might also be on Instuments....

There is room for a more precise definition, because when my head is inside for navigtion, I am on INSTRUMENTS....the quantity of instruments is not a deciding factor....

So I think I am in the same camp as 5150....


Bumz

[machlimter99]

So I understand I can log any flight under IFR - i.e flying above my MSA and quadrantal levels- even if it starts off as a VFR flight- and I'm booked out VFR???

How about during my IMC training where the flight is a VFR flight- the instructor is looking outside, and has booked us out VFR- but im flying with screens up??? Can this be logged IFR???

Couldnt I write the times for a IFR flight block to block if its under a IFR fightplan???

The logbook in question isnt American its a Pooleys logbook- where it has IF under the "other flying column."

[Bumz_Rush]

If you are not using your topo, and not following rivers and using an Aerad or Jeppi chart then you might be considered to be IF.

Just another thought... Bumz

ps I am too old to worry now, but can see your problem...Bumz

[5150]

So I understand I can log any flight under IFR

No way! If you book out VFR and maintain VMC for the whole flight you can ONLY log it as VFR.

What I said in my previous post was if you go out VFR/VMC then encounter IMC you are then flying IFR and can log it as IFR, regardless of whether you've filed an IFR flight plan.How about during my IMC training where the flight is a VFR flight- the instructor is looking outside, and has booked us out VFR- but im flying with screens up??? Can this be logged IFR???

For this I'd be inclined to log it in the IF column for training purposes (ie - Logging time towards a rating)

Couldnt I write the times for a IFR flight block to block if its under a IFR fightplan

Like I said - you don't taxi under IFR rules so you shouldn't log it as such. It's airborne to landing. I'm sure I read somewhere too that a flight plan isn't active until you become airborne which also backs up the theory regarding not logging times from blocks.

[machlimter99]

So what happens if we are a VFR flight and then end up running into cloud?? Imagine this is an IMC lesson. What would I write in the logbook then??

[5150]

If you don't hold the appropriate rating log it as 'IF' as you are under instruction. You can work that out from what I've written above.............


You can't log IFR as you are not rated to fly in those conditions. If you are a student you just log it as Pu/t, the blocks times, followed by the time spent on instruments (remember....airborne to landing).

Don't concern yourself with what your instructor might log.

[compressor stall]

IFR means instrument flight rules. It is just that - a set of rules to which one operates to (primarily) allow one to fly in clouds.

IF is the actual action of flying in cloud (or under the hood etc).

They are two separate things. A VFR flight even above MSA and quadrantal levels cannot be considered the same as an IFR flight. The latter involves radio procedures, navigation tolerances, flight plans.

Should you be flying VFR and choose to change category to IFR (and are properly rated) and abide by the aforementioned rules, then you could note that you flew from that point on under the IFR.

You should never be flying IF under the VFR. Think of the words.. Visual Flight Rules. You are required to see and avoid, and you can't do that in cloud.

I would argue that IFR could be recorded as block to block as you have different radio procedures on taxi under the IFR.

[bookworm]

In my logbook I have two columns- IFR and actual IF.

The ANO requires you to log instrument flying, which is undefined in the Order, though the accepted definition corresponds to the JAR-FCL one.

JAR-FCL1.080 requires you to log instrument flight time defined by

"A pilot may log as instrument flight time only that time during which he operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions."

It also requires you to log operational conditions, specifically Night and IFR.

To the best of my knowledge, as a UK pilot, you are not bound by 1.080. The concept of logging "IFR" is something of a nonsense in the UK, for all the reasons pointed out earlier in the thread, particularly that a UK pilot outside controlled airspace may switch between VFR and IFR at will, and the requirements for IFR are not very onerous. I don't think IFR time contributes in any way to the grant or renewal of a licence or rating.

[machlimter99]

So does anyone have the defintion of IFR flight?? Im confused, can my IMC hours and say the 3 hours instrument flying of my PPL training count towards IFR hours????????

[Strepsils]

IFR time is all time on which you are flying on an IFR flight plan. On a VFR flight plan if you fly into cloud or are training and put up the screens to simulate IMC then you count that part as IF.

You cannot log ANY IFR time if you are flying on a VFR flight plan. However, if you have the correct ratings(IR), you can change your flight plan to IFR inflight subject to ATC approval, and from that point you log IFR time.

Machlimiter99 - Your IMC and instrument flying is IF time, but assuming you were on a VFR flight plan you cannot log IFR.

[Tinstaafl]

G'day Stallie :ok: ,

A slight correction to what you said (for UK rules): In the UK a non-instrument rated pilot may fly IFR in Class G airspace eg many parts of Scotland. No requirement in the UK for the pilot to be instrument rated. S/he must still observe their non-IFR licence's limitation to maintain VMC however.

Also you can be IFR in IMC (if appropriately rated ie hold an IMC or IR rating(s)) in Class G and talk to no-one. Imagine that one in the Oz airspace debate!

Your absolutely right - reading from your comments - in your perception about people confusing the meaning of 'IFR' with 'IMC'.

[411A]

<<So what happens if we are a VFR flight and then end up running into cloud?? Imagine this is an IMC lesson. What would I write in the logbook then?>>

How about illegal. :yuk:

[Whopity]

"A slight correction to what you said (for UK rules): In the UK a non-instrument rated pilot may fly IFR in Class G airspace eg many parts of Scotland. No requirement in the UK for the pilot to be instrument rated."

Sorry, but you are only half right. If you have a UK licence it is true. If you have a JAA Licence, Schedule 8 para (2) says that the licence is subject to the conditions and restrictions specified in para 1.175 of JAR-FCL 1.

JAR-FCL1.175 says that you cannot act as a pilot under IFR unless you hold an Instrument Rating , or are under training or doing a skill test. Thats why SPIC appeared for candidates on Integrated courses.

From the Rules of the Air:
Choice of VFR or IFR
22 (1) Subject to paragraph (2) and to the provisions of rule 21 an aircraft shall always be
flown in accordance with the Visual Flight Rules or the Instrument Flight Rules.
(2) In the United Kingdom an aircraft flying at night:
(a) outside a control zone shall be flown in accordance with the Instrument Flight
Rules; or
(b) in a control zone shall be flown in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules
unless it is flying on a special VFR flight.

VISUAL FLIGHT RULES
24 (1) In relation to flights within controlled airspace rules 25 and 27 shall be the Visual Flight
Rules.
(2) In relation to flights outside controlled airspace rule 26 shall be the Visual Flight Rules.

Instrument Flight Rules
28 (1) In relation to flights within controlled airspace rules 29, 31 and 32 shall be the
Instrument Flight Rules.
(2) In relation to flights outside controlled airspace rules 29 and 30 shall be the
Instrument Flight Rules.

Having read the rules you make your own mind about what you log.

[bookworm]

JAR-FCL1.175 says that you cannot act as a pilot under IFR unless you hold an Instrument Rating , or are under training or doing a skill test.

which is paragraph (a) and it then goes on to say:

(b) In JAA Member States where national legislation requires flight in accordance with IFR under specified circumstances (e.g. at night), the holder of a pilot licence may fly under IFR, provided that pilot holds a qualification appropriate to the circumstances, airspace and flight conditions in which the flight is conducted. National qualifications permitting pilots to fly in accordance with IFR other than in VMC without being the holder of a valid IR(A) shall be restricted to use of the airspace of the State of licence issue only.

My reading of that, with Schedule 8, suggests that a holder of a JAR-FCL licence issued by the UK may fly under IFR in the UK.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

S/he must still observe their non-IFR licence's limitation to maintain VMC however. Er, how about:

(a) a UK PPL holder (that's UK not JAA) without IMCR or IR
(b) flying above 3000' in class F or G
(c) with 3km forward visibility but not the 1000'/1500m cloud separation?

According to my air law text book that's IMC, which requires flight according to IFR, and is legal for the UK PPL holder, ie these are circumstances in which it is legal for a UK PPL holder to fly IFR in IMC without any instrument qualification.

Is my book wrong, or am I misreading it, or are you wrong?

[Pianorak]

Got my IMC rating the other day. Had my log book returned with a message from the CAA saying: “Please note that you should also log time in the instrument column, when flying using instruments.”

Does the “also” mean “in addition to” the flight time logged in the (in my case) Single-Engine In Command column, or “instead of”? If the former then obviously those hours are not included in the “Grand Total” column.

[IO540]

This thread is a right mess of FAA and CAA airspace rules.

UK: Somebody on a VFR flight plan (whether it's a full ICAO one, or filed on the radio, or just in the pilot's head) and who has the IR or IMCR can enter clouds at any time, without any radio contact if in Class G, and log that time as instrument time. In the UK, it's common practice (IMCR or IR pilot) to fly VFR, in Class G because it reduces the radio workload, and pop in and out of clouds as one feels fit.

Pianorak: if you have the fairly standard logbook, probably from Transair, with the "instrument time" column, then the time that goes into that column is completely separate from the rest of the logbook. Let's say you do a flight with brakes-off to brakes-on times of

1100 1530

and on that flight you spent 30 mins flying by sole reference to instruments (what exactly that means is a separate debate), you will have in the logbook

start=1100
end=1530
time=4:30 (some like 4.5)
instrument time 0:30 (or 0.5)

The airborne time, probably about 4:10, isn't logged anywhere in your personal logbook but should be logged for maintenance purposes.

[machlimter99]

How do you log IFR in flight and whats the benefits of doing so??

[RAFAT]

From a Commercial point of view, from the moment you get airborne to the point where you become visual with the runway at destination is all IFR, which can be logged separately in most logbooks. Personally I knock 5 mins off the flight time and log that as Instrument time. As to the importance of logging it, well the last time I used it was when applying for an ATPL.

[JB007]

Don't quote me, but I think 100 hours instrument time for issue of the ATPL...???

[Whopity]

Pianorak

Article 35 (2)(d)requires you to log:

(d) particulars of any special conditions under which the flight was conducted,
including night flying and instrument flying;

Clearly whoever checked your application and signed it prior to sending it off, didn't do a very good job of checking your log book! This is required to show 15 hours dual instruction in Instrument flying and include at least 10 hours by sole reference to instruments. It is the 10 hours that the person processing your rating is looking for.

Yes, it is in addition to the PUT, not PIC, that you should have logged on the course.

No, you do not add it to any other colum.

[Pianorak]

Clearly whoever checked your application and signed it prior to sending it off, didn't do a very good job of checking your log book!
Hmm, maybe :confused: - brilliant instructor though! :ok: